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15:45:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:45:42 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
15:45:58 <ivan> Meeting: Verifiable Credentials Working Group Telco
15:45:58 <ivan> Date: 2023-01-11
15:45:58 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/mid/6b08c267153e3f8cf7be2d8f89ef365d@w3.org
15:45:58 <ivan> chair: brent
15:45:58 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2023-01-11: https://www.w3.org/mid/6b08c267153e3f8cf7be2d8f89ef365d@w3.org
15:58:49 <brent> brent has joined #vcwg
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15:58:54 <cabernet> present+
15:59:20 <ivan> present+
15:59:56 <brent> present+
16:01:14 <SebastianElfors> SebastianElfors has joined #vcwg
16:01:20 <ivan> present+ elfors
16:01:20 <ivan> present+ davidc
16:01:27 <ivan> present+ abramson
16:01:40 <ivan> present+ dlongley
16:01:49 <ivan> present+ manu
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16:03:10 <SebastianElfors> scribe+
16:03:40 <SebastianElfors> Brent kicked off the meeting.
16:03:43 <ivan> present+ tallted
16:04:11 <SebastianElfors> Agenda was reviewed: face to face meeting and open issues.
16:04:25 <ivan> present+ phil
16:04:51 <ivan> present+ JoeAndrieu
16:04:56 <SebastianElfors> manu: Status list has been moved to the working group.
16:05:18 <manu> manu has joined #vcwg
16:05:26 <ivan> present+ dlehn
16:05:26 <ivan> q+
16:05:28 <SebastianElfors> brent: Any new participants?
16:05:33 <brent> ack ivan
16:05:39 <JoeAndrieu> JoeAndrieu has joined #vcwg
16:06:41 <SebastianElfors> ivan: No changes in status, little less available than usual.
16:06:41 <manu_> manu_ has joined #vcwg
16:06:41 <brent> Topic: F2F Meeting
16:06:41 <ivan> present+ selfissued
16:06:41 <SebastianElfors> brent: First topic is face to face meeting. The plan is a face to face meeting in February in Miami.
16:07:44 <SebastianElfors> brent: Still unclear about travelling plans. Could postpone meeting.
16:07:44 <ivan> present+ dmitri
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16:07:44 <dmitriz> present+
16:08:20 <SebastianElfors> selfissued: What are the dates?
16:09:06 <manu_> q+
16:09:06 <SebastianElfors> brent: Dates to be decided still.
16:09:06 <brent> Topic: Work Item status updates/PRs
16:09:06 <Phil> Phil has joined #vcwg
16:09:06 <brent> ack manu_
16:09:06 <selfissued> selfissued has joined #vcwg
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16:09:06 <selfissued> present+
16:09:06 <SebastianElfors> manu: Going through work items. Sharing the screen...
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16:09:31 <manu_> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/987
16:09:52 <SebastianElfors> manu: A lot of topics for today. Asking David Chadwick for PR 987.
16:09:56 <ivan> s/https/subtopic: https/
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16:10:30 <shawnb> present+
16:10:33 <oliver> present+
16:10:54 <SebastianElfors> davidC: Don't believe anyhting outstanding.
16:11:03 <SebastianElfors> manu: Confirmed. Orie to confirm.
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16:11:17 <DavidC> present+
16:11:17 <manu_> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/999
16:11:22 <SebastianElfors> manu: Next PR is to remove the ZKP section.
16:11:54 <SebastianElfors> manu: PR 999 is the ZKP section. We need guidance what to do with the ZKP section.
16:12:13 <SebastianElfors> manu: Brent has written most of the ZKP section.
16:12:31 <SebastianElfors> manu: We need more commentary on this PR.
16:12:34 <manu_> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1000
16:12:57 <SebastianElfors> manu: Next PR 1000 is about media types registration.
16:13:12 <selfissued> q+
16:13:14 <SebastianElfors> manu: We need more reviewers what to do to with this.
16:13:18 <manu_> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1001
16:13:48 <SebastianElfors> manu: Next PR is 1001. It's about add vocabulary. We need more reviewers on this.
16:14:08 <dlongley> q?
16:14:10 <manu_> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1003
16:14:24 <SebastianElfors> manu: Next PR is 1003. This PR updates all examples to use JSON-LD context.
16:14:27 <brent> ack selfissued
16:15:14 <SebastianElfors> selfissued: About PR 1000 on media types. There is an important distinction between the type that is signed versus the type that is the entire thing.
16:15:33 <manu_> q+ to note media type suffixes thing
16:16:05 <brent> ack manu_
16:16:05 <Zakim> manu_, you wanted to note media type suffixes thing
16:16:32 <manu_> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mediaman-suffixes
16:16:36 <SebastianElfors> manu: Mike's comments will be useful input to the PR. Mike will provide more info in writing.
16:17:26 <SebastianElfors> selfissued: IETF may need multiple plus signs.
16:17:54 <SebastianElfors> manu: This will have impact on the W3C VC efforts as well.
16:18:25 <SebastianElfors> manu: PR 1003 updates the examples to use JSON-LD context. Updates all URLs.
16:18:37 <manu_> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1004
16:19:20 <ivan> q+
16:19:22 <SebastianElfors> manu: PR 1004 fixes an issue that Kyle found a year ago. Convey that a holder should present the VC in accordance with JSON-LD. Supposed to be a bug fix.
16:19:40 <SebastianElfors> ivan: Is this term that should go to the vocab?
16:19:50 <SebastianElfors> manu: It should already be there.
16:20:29 <manu_> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1005
16:20:42 <ivan> s/topic/subtopic/
16:20:57 <SebastianElfors> manu: Next PR is appropriate use of types. Kristina raised an issue about what is an appropriate VC/VP.
16:21:21 <SebastianElfors> manu: DavidC and Manu have proposed edits what is appropriate use. That is PR 1005.
16:21:52 <SebastianElfors> davidC: No problem with the text, there was a reference to an appendix without any further details on type.
16:22:02 <SebastianElfors> manu: It points to the section on validations.
16:22:19 <SebastianElfors> davidC: This section does not contain the details.
16:22:32 <SebastianElfors> davidC: Will propose changes to the section.
16:22:45 <manu_> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1006
16:23:00 <SebastianElfors> manu: Automatically generating vocabulary in PR 1006.
16:23:19 <ivan> q+
16:23:22 <SebastianElfors> manu: Ivan wrote tools for autogenerating vocab.
16:23:34 <brent> ack ivan
16:23:45 <SebastianElfors> ivan: It should not be merged until the repo is updated.
16:23:59 <SebastianElfors> manu: Will fix the repo before merging.
16:24:33 <SebastianElfors> ivan: There are details to be fixed manually.
16:24:49 <SebastianElfors> manu: On VC Data Integrity, there are two PRs.
16:24:54 <manu_> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-integrity/pull/75
16:25:04 <SebastianElfors> manu: It's filling out the security considerations section.
16:25:16 <manu_> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-integrity/pull/76
16:25:21 <SebastianElfors> manu: Clarify that key is used for data integrity. PR 75.
16:25:38 <SebastianElfors> manu: PR 76 is about canonicalization schemes.
16:25:45 <SebastianElfors> manu: Both editorial changes.
16:25:54 <manu_> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-status-list-2021/pulls
16:26:06 <SebastianElfors> manu: Finally, VC status list is a thing. There are no pull requsts in it.
16:26:27 <SebastianElfors> manu: We need to do some processing. There are some questions who are the editors. No PRs for this.
16:26:35 <SebastianElfors> manu: And that's it.
16:26:43 <ivan> present+ andres
16:26:51 <SebastianElfors> brent: Are there any other editors to share info?
16:27:07 <brent> Topic: Issue Discussion
16:27:12 <SebastianElfors> brent: Will move on to issues. Thanks manu for the PRs.
16:27:14 <brent> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Adiscuss+sort%3Aupdated-asc
16:27:21 <ivan> present+ bumblefudge
16:27:30 <SebastianElfors> brent: We are working through the chat.
16:27:36 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/914
16:27:37 <SebastianElfors> brent: Start with issue 914.
16:28:05 <SebastianElfors> brent: Referencing relative issuer. When somebody looks at the issuer URL, what should they get back?
16:28:13 <manu_> q+
16:28:17 <SebastianElfors> brent: No action taken since last time. Any updates?
16:28:19 <brent> ack manu_
16:28:36 <SebastianElfors> manu: There will be text in the VC Data Model who to reference this.
16:28:52 <SebastianElfors> manu: We can keep it like this if it addresses Orie's concern.
16:29:07 <SebastianElfors> manu: This text has to be written for the VC Data Integrity Model.
16:29:22 <SebastianElfors> brent: When this PR has been written, it should be linked to the issue.
16:29:29 <SebastianElfors> brent: Next issue is 846.
16:29:34 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/846
16:29:49 <SebastianElfors> brent: Include date and time for the standard.
16:29:59 <manu_> q+
16:30:00 <SebastianElfors> brent: No opposition to this proposal.
16:30:10 <brent> ack manu_
16:30:24 <SebastianElfors> brent: Any volunteers to write this?
16:30:56 <SebastianElfors> manu: Terrified to get this wrong. A bug in the scheme. It's possible that the regx could be incorrect.
16:31:20 <SebastianElfors> manu: There should be timezone in the date and time. We need regx experts to get it right.
16:31:24 <ivan> q+
16:31:30 <brent> ack ivan
16:31:33 <SebastianElfors> brent: Any volunteers?
16:32:01 <manu_> q+
16:32:02 <SebastianElfors> ivan: Do we have a decision to use the XSD date and time?
16:32:09 <brent> ack manu_
16:32:39 <SebastianElfors> manu: We have gone through three variants. XML schema 1, regx, ...
16:32:56 <SebastianElfors> ivan: Not asking about regx. Asking for definition about daytime.
16:33:24 <SebastianElfors> manu: We have looked into this. We are looking at XML schema for daytime, but it was wrong.
16:33:32 <SebastianElfors> manu: You have to specify the timezone.
16:33:43 <SebastianElfors> manu: Times are hard. :-)
16:33:58 <SebastianElfors> manu: XML schema must specify timezone.
16:34:18 <SebastianElfors> brent: Next issue is 709.
16:34:18 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/709
16:34:48 <SebastianElfors> brent: Implementation issues. Lost track of what this means. Update the title.
16:35:11 <SebastianElfors> brent: What is the shape of the document and VC? Related to the issue Orie has raised.
16:35:28 <SebastianElfors> brent: Will be partially addressed based on Orie's issue.
16:35:33 <SebastianElfors> brent: Any comments?
16:35:50 <SebastianElfors> brent: Will change the title to something more useful.
16:36:13 <SebastianElfors> manu: This is also related to the previous issue. It's the same question. It's a duplicate.
16:36:24 <SebastianElfors> brent: Tony has requested this to remain open.
16:36:41 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/895
16:36:41 <SebastianElfors> brent: Move to 895.
16:37:03 <SebastianElfors> brent: Authentication changes raised by Tim Smith. Discussed at TPAC.
16:37:13 <manu_> q+
16:37:18 <SebastianElfors> brent: Not much has happened since the TPAC.
16:37:20 <brent> ack manu_
16:37:48 <SebastianElfors> manu: Work has to happen. General meta-comment about challenges related to the big tens.
16:38:37 <SebastianElfors> manu: Can we address this problem by calling them digital credentials. There are several different digital credentials.
16:39:07 <JoeAndrieu> q+ to say this isn't about the big tent
16:39:15 <Orie> Orie has joined #vcwg
16:39:16 <SebastianElfors> manu: Unless there is technical work, we can come to a resolution that the big tens are digital credentials.
16:39:18 <Orie> present+
16:39:21 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
16:39:21 <Zakim> JoeAndrieu, you wanted to say this isn't about the big tent
16:39:24 <selfissued> q+
16:39:36 <SebastianElfors> JoeAndrieu: It's a conversion to be had.
16:40:16 <manu_> I agree with Joe's take on the issue.
16:40:50 <manu_> (that issue 895 requires work to be done -- PRs to VCDM -- and it's not about "big tent" discussion)
16:40:52 <SebastianElfors> ... The specific request is adjustment to the VCDM as opposed to the request on big tens.
16:40:58 <SebastianElfors> ... We have started the conversation.
16:41:12 <SebastianElfors> ... If there are any concrete proposals we can proceed.
16:41:15 <brent> ack selfissued
16:41:40 <SebastianElfors> Selfissued: Naming is hard. Digital credentials name leaves out the verifiable part.
16:41:51 <SebastianElfors> ... You can call it digital verifiable credentials.
16:42:14 <SebastianElfors> ... In the OpenID world we can call it credentials. Subtype is W3C VCs.
16:42:24 <Orie> +1 selfissued
16:42:29 <SebastianElfors> ... Prefer to keep the word VC.
16:42:32 <manu_> q+ to note that OpenID Foundation shouldn't be doing that.
16:42:38 <brent> ack manu_
16:42:38 <Zakim> manu_, you wanted to note that OpenID Foundation shouldn't be doing that.
16:42:41 <SebastianElfors> manu: Strong -1.
16:42:56 <DavidC> q+
16:42:56 <JoeAndrieu> q+
16:43:07 <SebastianElfors> ... Reusing terms is problematic.
16:43:08 <Orie> There is no trademark on Verifiable Credentials, AFAIK.
16:43:33 <SebastianElfors> ... This will lead to conflicts in the ecosystem. Please don't do that in OpenID.
16:43:53 <SebastianElfors> selfissued: This is not only term for VC.
16:43:56 <TallTed> q+
16:44:01 <brent> ack DavidC
16:44:30 <SebastianElfors> DavidC: Support Manu. The title is W3C VC Data Model. We have claimed term VC in the W3C VC spec.
16:44:36 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
16:44:37 <Orie> Notice the search trends for "verifiable credentials"... https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=verifiable%20credentials
16:44:42 <SebastianElfors> JoeAndrieu: Agree with Manu.
16:45:14 <Phil> +1 to Manu's and David'd comments VC is known and connected to W3C in the public's mind.
16:45:16 <SebastianElfors> ... Inappropriate to reuse the term in other specs.
16:45:39 <brent> ack TallTed
16:45:52 <SebastianElfors> TallTed: Agree that we cannot control other groups.
16:46:09 <SebastianElfors> ... There are people that can influence other groups. We minted the term W3C VC.
16:46:37 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/948
16:46:40 <TallTed> s/term W3C VC/term VC/
16:46:45 <SebastianElfors> brent: Next issue is 948. Limit JSON-LD to enhance developer experience.
16:47:18 <SebastianElfors> manu: There are other things we can do.
16:47:28 <SebastianElfors> ... Only JSON-LD compact form could be allowed.
16:47:28 <JoeAndrieu> @Orie, you should talk with a lawyer. I would wager good money there is, in fact, a trademark. No doubt is unregistered, but that is not how trademarks are established in fact.
16:47:43 <SebastianElfors> ... We are using vocab already.
16:47:55 <SebastianElfors> ... Developer mode context has been taken over by the vocab.
16:48:21 <SebastianElfors> ... Only thing to do is to raise PR to use JSON-LD compact.
16:48:35 <Orie> See the related open PR: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1001
16:48:40 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/758
16:48:42 <SebastianElfors> brent: Next up is 758.
16:48:53 <SebastianElfors> ... Fix the VC Data Model namespace.
16:49:01 <manu_> q+
16:49:05 <SebastianElfors> ... Brought up by the previous WG.
16:49:07 <brent> ack manu_
16:49:19 <SebastianElfors> manu: We should not do this. The URL can be wrong.
16:49:41 <manu_> This PR establishes a new JSON-LD context location: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1003
16:49:46 <SebastianElfors> ... There is an open PR. It's 1003.
16:49:56 <manu_> new URL is: https://www.w3.org/ns/credentials/v2
16:49:58 <SebastianElfors> ... This PR specifies a new URL.
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16:50:02 <ivan> q+
16:50:02 <Orie> +1 to the PR that removes 2018 from the context URLs....
16:50:11 <kristina> present+
16:50:52 <SebastianElfors> ... NS/Credentials should be used.
16:50:53 <brent> ack ivan
16:51:23 <manu_> q+
16:51:32 <SebastianElfors> ivan: We may mix up things. Are we talking about the URL for the context?
16:51:43 <SebastianElfors> ... The PR is about the LD context.
16:51:45 <Orie> I am in favor of removing 2018 from "both places".
16:51:51 <brent> ack manu_
16:51:58 <SebastianElfors> manu: There are three things.
16:52:10 <SebastianElfors> ... One URL is about the LD context. No legacy there.
16:52:25 <SebastianElfors> ... The other one is the human readable vocab. Should NS/credentials.
16:52:32 <Orie> +1 Manu
16:52:40 <ivan> q+
16:53:07 <Orie> Lets fix the easy ones first.... but I am in favor of fixing this __everywhere__
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16:53:28 <SebastianElfors> ... The next iissue is changing the term URLs.
16:53:36 <brent> ack ivan
16:53:56 <Orie> -1 Ivan... I don't agree.
16:54:01 <SebastianElfors> ivan: We should accept that there is a bad URL for the terms.
16:54:11 <manu_> +1 Ivan, agree... no one but developers see those URLs and shouldn't care.
16:54:27 <manu_> (there are also variations of what we could do here)
16:54:33 <SebastianElfors> ... There has been ugly URLs in the past. We should be careful to change them.
16:54:46 <manu_> +1 to what Ivan says above ^
16:55:00 <Orie> -1, and would like to discuss this in depth.
16:55:17 <SebastianElfors> brent: Ending the meeting.
16:55:23 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:55:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/11-vcwg-minutes.html ivan
16:55:40 <JoeAndrieu> present+
16:56:14 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
16:56:14 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been cabernet, ivan, brent, elfors, davidc, abramson, dlongley, manu, tallted, phil, JoeAndrieu, dlehn, selfissued, dmitri, dmitriz, shawnb,
16:56:17 <Zakim> ... oliver, andres, bumblefudge, Orie, kristina
16:56:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:56:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/11-vcwg-minutes.html Zakim
16:56:26 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:56:26 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:56:26 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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