17:00:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
17:00:08 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-irc
17:00:26 <TallTed> present+ ora
17:00:31 <TallTed> present+
17:00:36 <AndyS> present+
17:00:36 <ora> zakim, this will be rdf-star
17:00:36 <Zakim> ok, ora
17:00:45 <Enrico> Enrico has joined #rdf-star
17:00:53 <Enrico> p+
17:01:09 <ora> Meeting: RDF-star WG teleconference
17:01:14 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:01:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:01:22 <AndyS> zakim, who is present?
17:01:22 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AndyS.
17:01:23 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:36 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
17:01:36 <Zakim> Present: ora, TallTed, AndyS
17:01:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see Enrico, RRSAgent, Zakim, ora, TallTed, AndyS, ghurlbot, driib, agendabot, pchampin, Tpt, Timothe, gtw, ktk, rhiaro, csarven
17:01:49 <ora> Chair: ora
17:01:51 <TallTed> present+ Enrico
17:02:03 <AndyS> present+ Enrico
17:02:31 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:02:50 <gkellogg> present+
17:03:19 <ora> Zakim, who's here?
17:03:19 <Zakim> Present: ora, TallTed, AndyS, Enrico, gkellogg
17:03:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see gkellogg, Enrico, RRSAgent, Zakim, ora, TallTed, AndyS, ghurlbot, driib, agendabot, pchampin, Tpt, Timothe, gtw, ktk, rhiaro, csarven
17:03:45 <ora> Folks, please do "present+" if you are present
17:04:13 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
17:04:18 <Souri> present+
17:06:20 <ora> Scribe: AndyS
17:06:28 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
17:06:59 <Dominik_T> present+
17:07:01 <AndyS> ora: Naming proposal
17:07:11 <ora> Topic: Naming Proposal
17:07:12 <gkellogg> chair: ora
17:07:58 <TallTed> halfway there -- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2022Dec/
17:08:33 <gkellogg> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2022Dec/0017.html
17:08:33 <AndyS> ... Pierre-Antoine proposal (action item)
17:09:25 <gkellogg> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star/2022Dec/0000.html
17:10:03 <AndyS> gkellogg: Should we be called "RDF WG" given the wider scope of work?
17:10:39 <AndyS> ... consolidate rdf-star, rdf-star-wg mailing lists
17:10:59 <AndyS> tallted: rename rdf-star as rdf-star-cg
17:11:31 <AndyS> ... merging does not make sense as different communities
17:12:06 <ora> q+
17:12:07 <AndyS> gkellogg: Can we have W3C systeam fwd emails automatically?
17:12:31 <ora> ack ora
17:13:02 <AndyS> ora: distinction escape most people.
17:13:14 <AndyS> s/escape/escapes/
17:13:39 <AndyS> tallted: task force of RDF-star still exists.
17:14:47 <AndyS> ora: Mailing list discussions should go to the public-rdf-star-wg
17:14:58 <AndyS> ora: spec names ...
17:15:17 <gkellogg> q+
17:15:28 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:15:54 <AndyS> gkellogg: Precedence is "rdf12-*"
17:16:20 <AndyS> ... with "sparql12-*" as "rdf-sparql-*" isn't so short.
17:16:48 <AndyS> ... version 12 issues are a long way out.
17:17:32 <AndyS> ... previous names - current specs reference previous versions.
17:17:40 <AndyS> q+
17:17:47 <ora> ack AndyS
17:17:54 <gkellogg> scribe+ gkellogg
17:18:19 <gkellogg> andys: what didn't fix was the original 1.0 specs; I suggest we make those consistent.
17:18:43 <gkellogg> ... That was for the old sparql 1.0 spec.
17:18:50 <AndyS> SPARQL 1.0 - rdf-sparql-query
17:18:57 <gkellogg> ... All older specs should forward to the proper location.
17:18:58 <gkellogg> q+
17:19:05 <TallTed> +1 make all the versionless names redirect to the latest versioned doc
17:19:26 <TallTed> (instead of making the user manually click through)
17:19:39 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:20:16 <AndyS> gkellogg: json-ld experience - systeam ensured jsonld* goes to json-ld 1.,1 specs.
17:20:37 <AndyS> ... normal W3C systeam work process
17:20:38 <gkellogg> s/1.,1/1.1/
17:21:06 <AndyS> q+
17:21:49 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/
17:21:49 <gkellogg> sparql-query should eventually be the same as sparql12-query. sparql10-query should be the same as the former rdf-sparql-query.
17:22:49 <AndyS> ora: clarification of all detail needed.
17:23:22 <AndyS> gkellogg: ask team contact to check with the W3C system team.
17:23:39 <ora> action: staff contact to refine the naming proposal per WG's discussion
17:23:49 <TallTed> I think https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-sparql12-query/ will be the appropriate new target, which becomes the redirect from https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ (which should be formally moved to https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf10-sparql10-query/)
17:25:16 <ora> Topic: Enrico's thoughts on modal logic
17:25:32 <Souri> I agree with Ted.
17:25:48 <ora> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2022Dec/0055.html
17:27:57 <AndyS> Enrico: (from email) the fact < :messi :scores :last-WC22-goal > is (1) true in the current world/graph, and (2) it corresponds to the existence of a resource over which we can predicate additional facts
17:28:55 <ora> q+
17:29:02 <AndyS> q-
17:30:15 <gkellogg> q+
17:33:33 <TallTed> q+
17:33:58 <Souri> q+
17:34:47 <ora> ack ora
17:35:03 <AndyS> ora: need to discuss this work
17:35:30 <AndyS> ... are you suggesting current RDF reification should be revisited?
17:35:48 <AndyS> Enrico: current reification is not defined.
17:36:24 <AndyS> ora: modal logic mentioned in RDF originally but little interest at the time.
17:37:24 <ora> ack ora
17:38:43 <AndyS> q+
17:39:08 <TallTed> need to move on the queue
17:40:20 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:41:12 <AndyS> gkellogg: transparent/opacity In RDF-* not RDF-star, triple is asserted.
17:42:15 <AndyS> ... this is something the TF considered. The <<>> is a syntax the triple without asserting it implicitly.
17:43:14 <AndyS> ... <<>> is not a context - that is layered via modeling or via named graphs to keep apart
17:43:41 <ora> ack TallTed
17:43:49 <Enrico> q+
17:44:11 <AndyS> ... with our input  <<...>> would be need to be asserted as well if intended.
17:44:41 <AndyS> tallted: RDF-* only considered one case - less used by people in the world.
17:45:17 <AndyS> ... the <<>> are like "words"
17:45:36 <AndyS> ... we need to work with data that exists today
17:46:04 <AndyS> ... not require everyone to redo their RDF.
17:47:15 <ora> q+
17:47:16 <ora> ack Souri
17:47:25 <AndyS> ... can say "the sun is black" in a separate named graph to keep things apart
17:47:45 <AndyS> souri: agree with TallTed
17:47:53 <AndyS> ... quoted triple useful
17:48:24 <AndyS> ... need to capture multiple occurences
17:48:31 <ora> q-
17:49:46 <AndyS> ... foreign key needs a "name for the triple"
17:52:02 <ora> ack AndyS
17:52:03 <gkellogg> A graph label is a name.
17:52:19 <AndyS> ... multiple instances of the same triple
17:54:55 <ora> ack enrico
17:57:01 <TallTed> Burton+Taylor marriages are a useful foil for the modeling discussion.  You *don't know* that your model is broken until their second marriage -- and if you "properly model" for the second (and future), you must also *remodel* all your existing marriage data, for all previous marriages of all previous spouses
17:57:16 <Souri> q+
17:57:33 <TallTed> No-one will do this. They will find that RDF is indeed too complicated for their use, and they will move on. That would be bad for everyone.
17:58:01 <AndyS> ora: Happy Holidays
17:59:08 <Souri> I agree with Ted.
17:59:17 <AndyS> ora: Please continue on the mailing list
17:59:32 <ora> zakim, bye
17:59:32 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ora, TallTed, AndyS, Enrico, gkellogg, Souri, Dominik_T
17:59:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
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17:59:53 <gkellogg> rrsagent, make logs public
18:00:02 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:00:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:00:09 <ora> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:00:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-minutes.html ora
18:00:46 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
18:00:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been (no one)
18:00:46 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:22 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:01:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
18:01:22 <ora> rrsagent, bye
18:01:22 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
18:01:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: staff contact to refine the naming proposal per WG's discussion [1]
18:01:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-irc#T17-23-39
18:01:23 <AndyS> rrsagent, pelase excuse us
18:01:23 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'pelase excuse us', AndyS.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:01:23 <AndyS> rrsagent, please excuse us
18:01:23 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
18:01:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: staff contact to refine the naming proposal per WG's discussion [1]
18:01:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-irc#T17-23-39