23:56:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
23:56:58 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/12/08-epub-irc
23:57:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:57:01 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe
23:57:06 <dauwhe> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon
23:57:10 <dauwhe> dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2022Dec/0007.html
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23:57:36 <dhall> present +
23:58:08 <wendyreid> present+
23:58:12 <dhall> -.-
23:58:14 <dhall> present+
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23:58:40 <toshiakikoike> present+
23:59:15 <MattChan> MattChan has joined #epub
23:59:20 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
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00:00:08 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
00:00:22 <MattChan> present+
00:00:29 <duga> present+
00:01:00 <MattChan> scribe+
00:01:29 <shiestyle> present+
00:01:45 <mgarrish> present+
00:02:17 <MattChan> TOPIC: Testing Updates
00:02:47 <MattChan> wendyreid: thanks to everyone who submitted test results this week
00:03:03 <MattChan> ... we have a lot more clarity on how well features are supported
00:03:15 <MattChan> ... the biggest relief is that the fallback situation is not as bad as we thought
00:03:44 <MattChan> ... we don't have full support for record linking, changes to dir attribute in package
00:03:56 <MattChan> ... its a new feature, so that's tricky
00:04:18 <MattChan> ... and it applies mostly to RS implementations using languages like arabic, hewbrew
00:04:42 <MattChan> duga: we're launched in Arabic speaking countries, but most of that is left to the system to decide which direction
00:05:25 <MattChan> ... we display those titles in the store, but we don't support this setting on these elements
00:05:35 <MattChan> wendyreid: epub css classes didn't make it
00:05:42 <MattChan> duga: i'll try to get to that test today
00:05:46 <MattChan> ... is today the cut off?
00:06:05 <MattChan> wendyreid: no, but it would be good to get results in. We want to be making decisions about these features
00:06:18 <MattChan> ... the ones with the dashed outline around them are at risk of being under implemented
00:06:28 <duga> q+
00:06:30 <MattChan> ... but none of them make us scared to mark them as underimplemented
00:06:32 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:06:33 <dauwhe> ack duga
00:06:53 <MattChan> duga: the ones i was worried about were the MO ones. It's optional, but they are MUSTs.
00:07:10 <MattChan> ... poorly implemented because most of these contain floating text
00:07:41 <MattChan> wendyreid: i had a hard time with our new renderer, but the android tests are incoming, and I think they will pass
00:07:57 <MattChan> duga: we don't support floating text, but we would pass if they were fxl books
00:08:03 <MattChan> wendyreid: one of them is fxl
00:08:20 <MattChan> duga: it would be weird to mark these at risk
00:08:29 <MattChan> ... since MO is pretty well supported
00:08:52 <MattChan> wendyreid: we're waiting on more test results from Kobo, and I reached out to Lars re. Colibrio
00:09:00 <dauwhe> q?
00:09:03 <MattChan> ... i have a feeling Colibrio has good support
00:09:17 <dauwhe> q?
00:09:59 <MattChan> ... re. dir attribute we think its only a matter of time/native RS coverage
00:10:24 <MattChan> ... other tests, like linked records, can get marked underimplemented without devastating consequences
00:10:36 <MattChan> dauwhe: no additional comments
00:10:39 <MattChan> shiestyle: ditto
00:10:54 <MattChan> wendyreid: it would be good to have more tests, if only for publishers to be able to see coverage on certain features
00:11:07 <MattChan> ... it was also eye opening as an implementor to see what did and didn't work
00:11:16 <MattChan> ... also found bugs in epubcheck using these test
00:11:20 <MattChan> dauwhe: testing is good
00:11:41 <MattChan> wendyreid: i also fixed the tests which were not supposed to have epubcheck errors but did anyway
00:12:33 <MattChan> dauwhe: one of the errors was id values that started with numbers
00:13:06 <MattChan> ... in the package document tests
00:13:28 <MattChan> makoto: this was a holdover from XHTML, a long time ago
00:13:54 <MattChan> wendyreid: for epubcheck, the error message for ids starting with numbers wasn't super clear
00:14:14 <MattChan> ... the error text was something about a colon
00:14:36 <MattChan> ... 'check that your id does not start with non-alphanumeric' might be clearer
00:14:59 <MattChan> mgarrish: not sure where it comes from, but epubcheck can overwrite that
00:15:19 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2491
00:15:21 <MattChan> TOPIC: MIME Sniffing
00:15:58 <MattChan> dauwhe: this was pointed out by Romain that as part of the HTML it says you have to determine what kind of resource it is because HTTP headers might be wrong
00:16:10 <MattChan> ... browsers realized that they might have to figure out what resources really are
00:16:29 <MattChan> ... every browser did that differently, which resulted in interop issues
00:16:41 <MattChan> ... so a algorithm was written in a spec
00:17:06 <MattChan> ... epub doesn't currently say how this should happen
00:17:16 <MattChan> ... but it doesn't seem like there's a problem we need to solve here
00:17:34 <MattChan> ... it might be good to clean this up, but adding normative language about this now would delay going to PR
00:17:42 <MattChan> ... we would need tests, could invalidate implementations
00:17:50 <dauwhe> q?
00:17:51 <MattChan> ... leaning towards leaving it for now
00:17:55 <duga> q+
00:18:04 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:18:18 <MattChan> duga: agree. There's not a problem.
00:18:37 <MattChan> ... it is specified what should happen, because we have UA, and UAs are supposed to used MIMESNIFF per HTML
00:18:58 <MattChan> ... one of the inputs to the algorithm is 'specified MIME type', so question is should that be the value from the manifest?
00:19:03 <dauwhe> q?
00:19:16 <MattChan> ... and it seems that that value will get ignored anyway, that's no why it's there
00:19:22 <MattChan> ... that manifest value is there for fallbacks
00:19:56 <MattChan> dauwhe: given the varieties of approaches that can be taken (e.g. HTTP server, etc.), and do we have to mess with that?
00:20:19 <MattChan> ... feels like we should not go there unless we're solving an actual interop problem
00:20:42 <MattChan> mgarrish: don't like the idea of pointing out that there is no standard for this until we come up with a solution
00:21:09 <MattChan> dauwhe: i've been working on epub for a decade and I didn't realize the MIMESNIFF was an issue until it was raised
00:21:19 <MattChan> ... my inclination is not to make any changes now
00:21:43 <MattChan> mgarrish: defer it
00:22:08 <MattChan> dauwhe: if someone can come up with a test that behaves different in different RS, or finds an example in the real world, definitely bring it up in the next round
00:22:15 <wendyreid> Proposed: Defer issue 2491 until evidence of an issue is found
00:22:22 <duga> +1
00:22:22 <dauwhe> +1
00:22:22 <shiestyle> +1
00:22:23 <wendyreid> +1
00:22:23 <MattChan> +1
00:22:25 <mgarrish> +1
00:22:26 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:22:27 <dhall> +1
00:22:40 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Defer issue 2491 until evidence of an issue is found
00:22:40 <dauwhe> Makoto: +1
00:23:07 <MattChan> TOPIC: What do we do after EPUB 3.3?
00:23:17 <MURATA> MURATA has joined #epub
00:23:34 <MURATA> +present
00:23:44 <dauwhe> present+ MURATA
00:23:52 <MattChan> wendyreid: this is about a decisions we have to make as a WG. Do we turn spec into a living standard?
00:24:16 <MattChan> ... we could publish changes to epub without all the overhead of this initial process. Aimed at addressing errata, clarifications, etc.
00:24:26 <MattChan> ... if we needed to publish a new version that would be a different process
00:24:41 <MattChan> ... we would need a maintenance working group to do living standard
00:24:55 <MattChan> ... this group might work on bringing our family of specs to ISO to PAS process
00:25:05 <MattChan> s/to PAS/thru PAS
00:25:30 <MattChan> mokoto: my motivation is to have ISO standard and W3C standards in sync as far as epub is concerned
00:25:59 <MattChan> ... ISO has an older version of epub. JIS has version 1.0, meanwhile ISO has epub 3.1 (i think)
00:26:22 <MattChan> ... if we don't submit 3.3 and ally 1.1 to ISO, then some parts of the world will continue to think these old ISO versions are authoritative
00:26:46 <MattChan> ... to avoid confusion, i think it is very important to submit epub 3.3. and ally 1.1 to be published as ISO standard via PAS
00:26:55 <MattChan> ... PAS is a very light weight standard, mgarrish will not have to do anything
00:27:10 <wendyreid> s/mokoto/makoto/
00:27:30 <MattChan> ... the ISO will attach a cover page. Like how WCAG 2.0 was published as ISO standard
00:27:44 <MattChan> ... if ISO members vote to change something, W3C has right to withdraw the submission
00:28:05 <MattChan> ... so I am quite sure that nobody will try to change epub at that stage. They would rather raise such issues now
00:28:35 <MattChan> ... if we announce our intention from the beginning, I am quite sure ISO will not try to change anything
00:29:19 <MattChan> ... if this submission is not made, then I will have a real problem. There are already concerns about differences between a11y 1.0 and 1.1. It is not possible to create epub that conforms to both without some tricks
00:29:33 <MattChan> ... important for JIS
00:29:47 <dauwhe> q?
00:30:01 <MattChan> ... and important for countries that do not have national standards too
00:30:21 <MattChan> wendyreid: Cristina also mentioned that it would be easier for EU if 3.3 were ISO standard
00:30:56 <MattChan> ... audiobooks is also a living standard, but only a single errata change has been made in two years
00:31:19 <MattChan> dauwhe: say we publish 3.3 as REC, and there was an ISO version, how easy would it be to re-publish ISO if there were change under living standard?
00:31:35 <mgarrish> q+
00:31:42 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
00:31:51 <MattChan> makoto: for Unicode as an example, ISO publish new version every 2 or 3 years, and they can also do amendments to handle errata
00:32:09 <MattChan> mgarrish: a benefit of living standard is that we don't have a backup of errata issues until we do a new version
00:32:22 <MattChan> ... we can clarify things more quickly
00:32:32 <MattChan> ... it would be a huge benefit for the standard
00:32:41 <dauwhe> q?
00:33:15 <MattChan> wendyreid: there's also an element where it teeters on the edge of errata vs feature change, but that's still lighter weight than the whole CR/PR/REC process
00:33:28 <MattChan> ... still allows us to balance the necessity of making changes
00:33:54 <MattChan> mgarrish: are there levels of changes that you are allowed to make under living standard before you are required to get approval again?
00:33:59 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, there are 4 levels of change
00:34:30 <MattChan> ... 1 and 2 are basically errata. 3 is making your change, followed by AC approval process. 4 is full-on version number change
00:35:19 <MattChan> ... the errata types are easy to do under living standard
00:35:30 <MattChan> mgarrish: a lot tends to be errata. No expected major feature changes at this point
00:36:47 <MattChan> wendyreid: mgarrish is there anything you need us to consider?
00:37:06 <MattChan> makoto: I would like a decision on whether to go ahead with PAS process, though maybe not today
00:37:19 <MattChan> wendyreid: this will be the last meeting for 2022. Next wg meeting will be 1st week of Jan
00:37:46 <MattChan> ... tentatively we will vote to go to PR then, and i will also throw in vote whether to go to ISO
00:37:52 <MattChan> ... we will have more information then
00:37:57 <MattChan> ... is that okay, in terms of notice?
00:38:23 <MattChan> makoto: i can contact the iso secretariat for an informal conversation
00:38:43 <MattChan> dauwhe: makes sense to decide after we go to PR
00:39:33 <MattChan> wendyreid: okay, this is the last meeting of the year, we'll reconvene next year when we vote for going to PR
00:39:39 <MattChan> ... if you have test results, please submit them now
00:39:51 <MattChan> ... tests should be finalized now
00:40:09 <MattChan> ... have a lovely holiday everyone! Good work!
00:40:18 <MattChan> dauwhe: thanks to wendyreid and mgarrish!
00:40:24 <MattChan> makoto: thanks everyone!
00:40:34 <MattChan> ... and epubcheck implementors
00:40:45 <MattChan> wendyreid: latest version is out now, so please test that too if you haven't
00:41:11 <MattChan> dauwhe: it will be harder to change after its integrated in ingest pipelines
00:41:19 <MattChan> ... Happy holidays everyone!
00:41:31 <dauwhe> Zakim, end meeting
00:41:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, dhall, toshiakikoike, dauwhe, MasakazuKitahara, MattChan, duga, shiestyle, mgarrish, present, MURATA
00:41:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:41:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/08-epub-minutes.html Zakim
00:41:36 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
00:41:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
00:42:03 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: bye
00:42:03 <RRSAgent> I see no action items