17:50:53 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:50:53 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/12/08-aria-irc 17:50:55 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:50:57 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 17:50:58 meeting: ARIA WG 17:51:04 agendabot, find agenda 17:51:04 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 17:51:05 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/70a5cdcc-3341-4cee-8091-9be078aaa30d 17:51:05 clear agenda 17:51:05 agenda+ -> Standards https://www.w3.org/standards/ 17:51:05 agenda+ -> Participate https://www.w3.org/participate/ 17:51:07 agenda+ -> Membership https://www.w3.org/Consortium/membership 17:51:10 agenda+ -> About W3C https://www.w3.org/Consortium/ 17:51:12 agenda+ -> Groups https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/70a5cdcc-3341-4cee-8091-9be078aaa30d# 17:51:15 agenda+ -> Login https://www.w3.org/accounts/login?redirect_url=/events/meetings/70a5cdcc-3341-4cee-8091-9be078aaa30d 17:51:23 zakim, clear agenda 17:51:23 agenda cleared 17:52:20 agendabot, agenda is https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Dec/0003.html 17:52:20 jamesn, sorry, I don't understand "agenda is https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Dec/0003.html". Try "agendabot, help". 17:52:27 agendabot, help 17:52:27 jamesn, I am an instance of AgendaBot 0.5. For detailed help, type "help COMMAND", where COMMAND is one of invite, agenda, find, suggest, accept, this is, forget, status or bye. Or go to https://w3c.github.io/AgendaBot/manual.html 17:52:43 agendabot, agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Dec/0003.html 17:52:43 jamesn, sorry, I don't understand "agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Dec/0003.html". Try "agendabot, help". 17:53:02 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Dec/0003.html 17:53:02 clear agenda 17:53:02 agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3F6QO6C) 17:53:02 agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3BaCclq) 17:53:02 agenda+ [Holiday Schedule](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar) 17:53:02 agenda+ \[2023 ARIA F2F\](Results of survey, date conflicts) 17:53:05 agenda+ [ARIA ACT Rules review](https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1850) 17:53:08 agenda+ [aria-haspopup at button should not change role](https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/51) 17:53:11 agenda+ [\[normative\]\[author\] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793) 17:53:14 agenda+ [1.3 blocking issues](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+) 17:53:17 agenda+ [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar)) 18:01:09 present+ 18:02:07 scotto has joined #aria 18:02:09 present+ 18:02:28 present+ 18:02:37 present+ 18:03:28 agenda+ Flowto https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/630 (close to resolution to NOT deprecate flowto until better replacement exists) 18:03:42 agenda? 18:04:07 zakim, drop item 9 18:04:07 agendum 9, [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar)), dropped 18:04:17 CurtBellew has joined #aria 18:04:34 zakim, agenda is 1,2,3,4,5,10,6,7,8 18:04:34 sorry, jamesn, I do not recognize a party named 'agenda' 18:04:42 scribe: Adam_Page 18:04:43 zakim, order is 1,2,3,4,5,10,6,7,8 18:04:43 sorry, jamesn, I do not recognize a party named 'order' 18:04:50 zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,4,5,10,6,7,8 18:04:50 ok, jamesn 18:05:00 zakim, next item 18:05:00 agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3F6QO6C) -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:05:26 StefanS has joined #aria 18:05:31 present+ 18:06:44 chair: spectranaut_ 18:07:09 spectranaut_: #447 18:07:23 ... editorial issue 18:07:29 scotto: this is on my to-do 18:07:56 ... html-aam is riddled with old methods of linking, slowly fixing 18:08:02 spectranaut_: #155 18:08:13 ... I’ll look at this 18:08:22 jamesn: could you craft a reply to this, jcraig? 18:08:44 ... we could mostly use standard HTML to solve this problem 18:08:54 jcraig: yes, I will 18:08:59 spectranaut_: #154 18:09:08 ... security considerations — is this the same issue? 18:09:12 jamesn: no, not the same 18:09:22 ... too general to be actionable for us 18:09:35 ... we need more detail 18:09:46 jcraig: we could point them to the tag issue 18:10:09 ... security in this case could mean fingerprinting? or attack vectors? phishing attacks? 18:10:22 jamesn: it’s not specific enough, so we don’t know for certain 18:10:46 scotto: should there even be something in core-aam for this? 18:11:25 jcraig: if there’s some security threat with ARIA, it should have been caught by W3C process. If there is a conversation thread here, it should be platform-specific 18:11:43 spectranaut_: we can wait on this issue 18:11:51 spectranaut_: #1851 18:12:30 jamesn: I almost closed this as inapplicable to ARIA 18:13:13 jamesn: re: implicit roles, we do have a slight crossover in that html-aam now says “use ARIA mappings” 18:13:31 jcraig: this seems like a misrepresentation of our intention with accessibility tree inclusion 18:13:47 ... maybe we could clarify, but this is an implementation issue 18:14:08 spectranaut_: any disagreements? 18:14:18 jcraig: I’ll comment and close 18:14:35 jamesn: agreed, we could clarify, but nothing needs rewriting. A comment could be sufficient 18:14:47 zakim, next item 18:14:47 agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3BaCclq) -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:14:59 spectranaut_: #178 18:15:14 spectranaut_: who wants to review? 18:15:24 spectranaut_: melanie 18:15:30 spectranaut_: #448 18:16:05 scotto: this is mine. Was looking through #402 PR and noticed discrepancies 18:16:14 ... please review #402, everyone 18:16:24 spectranaut_ I’ll look at #402 18:16:54 jamesn: I’ll review 18:17:25 scotto: UIA was saying labelledby prop pertained only to input, but there’s actually more 18:17:39 ... we’re not being specific enough 18:17:46 spectranaut_: #1852 18:18:11 jamesn: I’ll fix 18:18:21 s/if there’s some security threat with ARIA, it should have been caught by W3C process. If there is a conversation thread here, it should be platform-specific/if there’s some security threat with ARIA itself, it should have been caught by W3C Security cross-review process. If there is an implementation issue here, it should be platform-specific/ 18:18:43 spectranaut_: I’ll look at it too 18:18:55 spectranaut_: melanie will review too 18:19:04 spectranaut_: #177 18:19:31 present+ 18:20:01 spectranaut_: reviewers added 18:20:08 spectranaut_: #153 18:20:11 ... this is a draft 18:20:28 ... we’re discussing this later in the meeting 18:20:29 zakim, next item 18:20:29 agendum 3 -- [Holiday Schedule](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar) -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:20:42 spectranaut_ : we have one more meeting in Dec 18:20:50 ... canceled the 22nd and 29th 18:20:57 zakim, next item 18:20:57 agendum 3 was just opened, Adam_Page 18:21:05 zakim, close item 18:21:05 I don't understand 'close item', Adam_Page 18:21:12 zakim, close this item 18:21:12 agendum 3 closed 18:21:13 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:21:13 4. \[2023 ARIA F2F\](Results of survey, date conflicts) [from agendabot] 18:21:17 zakim, next item 18:21:17 agendum 4 -- \[2023 ARIA F2F\](Results of survey, date conflicts) -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:21:40 jamesn: we have 14 responses for face-to-face survey 18:21:48 ... please vote if you haven’t, but it might not take it 18:22:05 ... majority _wants_ a face-to-face in the first half of the year 18:22:15 ... 60% wants California bay area 18:23:15 ... bay area is probably the most likely, but somewhere in the central US could be possible with good access and a host 18:23:29 ... does anyone disagree with bay area? 18:23:41 jcraig: would like to hear from folks outside the U.S. 18:24:15 jamesn: would like to avoid Europe because TPAC will be there in the fall 18:24:47 rashmi: how about Seattle? 18:25:18 cyns: I could host in Seattle 18:25:34 spectranaut_: anyone who could go to the bay but _not_ Seattle? 18:25:54 spectranaut_: also need to decide date 18:26:05 ... any conference conflicts? 18:26:12 jcraig: avoid CSUN, SXSW 18:26:17 cyns: Adobe Mix? 18:26:25 jamesn: Summit is in sprin 18:26:32 s/sprin/spring/ 18:26:42 jamesn: recommend avoiding most of April 18:27:15 jcraig: also need to avoid Global A11y Awareness Day 18:27:22 cyns: end of May, I think? 18:27:47 cyns: May is nice in Seattle, no smoke ;-) 18:28:13 zakim, next item 18:28:13 agendum 5 -- [ARIA ACT Rules review](https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1850) -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:28:45 spectranaut_: jamesn created a discussion in GitHub. Please review the rules there 18:29:11 scotto: we need more than just JAWS-Test and me 18:29:31 jcraig: I may volunteer co-worker who works on ACT 18:29:39 jamesn: don’t need to be a WG member 18:29:43 zakim, next item 18:29:43 agendum 10 -- Flowto https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/630 (close to resolution to NOT deprecate flowto until better replacement exists) -- taken up [from jcraig] 18:30:26 jcraig: in our deep dive earlier this morning, we came to an agreement that we need some replacement. Brennan and Volker made compelling requests that we do not deprecate 18:30:37 ... they currently rely on it 18:30:44 ... I plan to close as “not to be deprecated” 18:31:03 ... Brennan will file a new issue: “what do we do about accessible diagramming?” 18:31:33 jamesn: would love a community group but need buy-in from browsers 18:31:42 ... need to get the right implementation people involved 18:31:58 jcraig: that’s why I’ve proposed a WICG 18:32:17 cyns: +1 to getting the right people there, and also documenting use cases 18:32:31 zakim, next item 18:32:31 agendum 6 -- [aria-haspopup at button should not change role](https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/51) -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:32:53 spectranaut_: jamesn made draft PR for this 18:33:02 jamesn: this has been a long discussion 18:33:28 ... Aaron has proposed a Chrome change 18:33:36 spectranaut_: that change landed 18:33:43 cyns: there was a lot of input involved with that; not just Aaron 18:33:48 jamesn: fully support 18:33:57 ... would like to go further and do the same for some of the other values, for consistency 18:34:08 ... acknowledge that they’re not _as_ important 18:34:43 ... but for consistency, we should extend 18:34:50 cyns: they were trying to be incremental 18:35:35 sarah_higley has joined #aria 18:35:35 scotto: yes, incremental, but this particular case was super necessary 18:36:01 jamesn: I’m open to making my draft PR focus only on dialog 18:37:22 jamesn: I did some searches on various web source code repos looking for examples of aria-haspopup using other values 18:37:46 cyns: the draft PR is reasonable, but the implementation implications might be fragile 18:37:57 cyns: Aaron will be back on Monday, can we push to next week’s meeting? 18:38:00 spectranaut_: yes 18:38:19 zakim, next item 18:38:19 agendum 7 -- [\[normative\]\[author\] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793) -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:38:32 spectranaut_ : any update? 18:38:40 jamesn: waiting for pkra 18:38:53 ... has unresolved questions 18:39:25 ... may need to look through old minutes 18:39:39 shigley: is there anything in here that wouldn’t be covered by change to aria-owns? 18:39:50 s/shigley/sarah_higley/ 18:40:11 jamesn: good point, we need to look at that 18:40:16 siri has joined #aria 18:40:26 ... that one was blocked y a wording issue 18:40:42 jcraig: “Accessibility child” and “Accessibility parent” 18:40:45 ... it disambiguates 18:41:00 sarah_higley: no strong opinion, I’m planning to go through and change to that 18:41:04 zakim, next item 18:41:04 agendum 8 -- [1.3 blocking issues](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+) -- taken up [from 18:41:07 ... agendabot] 18:41:47 jamesn: #1150 18:41:54 ... will be resolved by sarah_higley’s work 18:41:57 #1159 18:42:01 ... any update? 18:42:06 spectranaut_: no, but I’ll look in Jan 18:42:22 jamesn: #1161 18:42:31 ... really does need us to go through everything 18:42:47 ... #1177 18:42:48 no update 18:42:51 ... #1487 18:42:57 have resolution just need to finish 18:43:00 ... #1824 18:43:06 ... I created a PR for this 18:43:11 ... hopefully can be merged & closed 18:43:19 ... needs a test, according to flag 18:43:31 spectranaut_: assign me and I’ll look at the test 18:43:49 jcraig: trying to flag anything that relates to computed name or computed role 18:44:11 spectranaut_: do WPT tests need to be created in WPT? 18:44:23 jcraig: yes, but can create & run them offline, then propose at WPT repo 18:44:31 zakim, next item 18:44:31 I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, Adam_Page 18:44:49 cyns: how many people do we need to host for face-to-face? 18:45:29 jamesn: need larger than a 10-person conference room 18:46:24 cyns: I’ll look for 15- or 20-person room 18:46:31 jamesn: Adobe is also an option in Seattle 18:47:56 zakim, end meeting 18:47:56 As of this point the attendees have been spectranaut_, Adam_Page, jcraig, scotto, StefanS, CurtBellew 18:47:58 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:47:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/08-aria-minutes.html Zakim 18:48:01 I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:48:05 Zakim has left #aria 19:59:24 howard-e has joined #aria 20:21:13 s3ththompson has joined #aria 21:32:05 howard-e has joined #aria 21:53:39 howard-e has joined #aria 22:05:04 howard-e has joined #aria 22:13:40 howard-e has joined #aria