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14:48:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:48:08 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:48:22 <Lauriat> agenda+ Preview of Tuesday's AG WG meeting (& AGWG Culture Check In survey)
14:48:26 <Lauriat> agenda+ Presentation for (following) Tuesday
14:48:29 <Lauriat> Present+
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14:54:09 <janina> agenda?
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14:55:16 <jeanne> agenda?
14:55:36 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:55:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/02-silver-minutes.html jeanne
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15:01:09 <JenStrickland> present+
15:02:55 <janina> present+
15:03:23 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up item 1
15:03:23 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Preview of Tuesday's AG WG meeting (& AGWG Culture Check In survey) -- taken up [from Lauriat]
15:03:24 <jeanne> present+
15:03:25 <ToddL> present+
15:03:31 <Lauriat> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2022OctDec/0118.html
15:03:48 <kirkwood> present+
15:03:50 <Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/culture_check_in/
15:04:04 <kirkwood> Shawn: culture checkin survey
15:04:43 <Lauriat> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2022OctDec/0114.html
15:04:44 <kirkwood> Shawn: please fill out survey, can send directly to Charles if not comfortable with culture question
15:05:20 <kirkwood> Shawn: pasted link if want to provide anonymously contact Charles
15:05:44 <kirkwood> … test requirments subgroup anything else to note on agenda?
15:05:52 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
15:05:52 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Presentation for (following) Tuesday -- taken up [from Lauriat]
15:05:58 <kirkwood> Jeanne: think covered everything
15:06:45 <Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YFLroVspFQSEqUgAcI8qPS2CI6EboZcHA43FQNWpt-8/edit
15:06:51 <kirkwood> Shawn: will continue work and Suzanne did audio for the decision tree, Tuesday the 13th
15:07:09 <kirkwood> Shawn: any other decsion trees?
15:07:45 <kirkwood> Shawn: in that doc there’s guidelines and outcomes copied in
15:08:22 <kirkwood> Shawn reading it through
15:08:26 <jeanne> Audio Decision Tree Example -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YFLroVspFQSEqUgAcI8qPS2CI6EboZcHA43FQNWpt-8/
15:08:52 <Chuck> q+
15:09:31 <kirkwood> Chuck: question for Suzanne i think…
15:09:55 <kirkwood> … i do not know second bullet, don’t know what it means?
15:10:32 <kirkwood> Jeanne: something out of children’s group I think. we should as her
15:10:53 <Chuck> I'm taking us down a rabbit hole that is off topic.  I apologize.
15:11:02 <kirkwood> Janina: not catching, asking about arrows is that a thing?
15:11:23 <kirkwood> Janina: AAC should probably be in there somewhere
15:11:37 <kirkwood> Jeanne: let me add as a suggestion
15:12:06 <kirkwood> Jeanne: Augmented Alternative Communications?
15:12:10 <kirkwood> Janina: yes
15:13:04 <kirkwood> Shawn: looking through decision tree, audience analysis, conformance goals and performance scope. lots of options. ranges of conformance from not much to really great.
15:13:09 <Chuck> q+ to say I think that this could be translated to a traditional decision tree.
15:13:21 <kirkwood> Shawn: continues to read
15:13:56 <kirkwood> … sections includes describing product (continues to read)
15:14:21 <kirkwood> Shawn: essentially a decision tree for implementation
15:14:58 <kirkwood> … target audinece general, vsual design, based on that can map out functionla needs and follow to methods
15:15:13 <kirkwood> Charles: not a tradtional decision tree could map to one
15:15:17 <jeanne> q+ to split this from the decision tree that Makoto proposed
15:15:21 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:15:21 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say I think that this could be translated to a traditional decision tree.
15:15:23 <jeanne> ack chuck
15:15:53 <Chuck> +1 to jeanne's observations
15:16:00 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
15:16:00 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to split this from the decision tree that Makoto proposed
15:16:52 <kirkwood> Jeanne: its interesting seems on a higher level than what we have been talking about, might be tricky to implement, this decision tree on conformance, not aadiio, think split it off, not sure how related outcome to user needs
15:17:15 <kirkwood> Shawn: given outcome what decision tree go through to meet that outcome
15:17:47 <kirkwood> … for exaple firs bullet under user needs, is there audio present, if no than done if yes what is tha audio
15:18:10 <Chuck> q+ to say that while it wasn't what I expected, it's still an interesting take that we may want to consider as a different exercise.
15:18:12 <janina> q+ that not all audio should be captioned
15:18:24 <janina> q+
15:18:47 <kirkwood> … walk through decisions tree how have you you met the outcome, suzanne how build to make outcome
15:19:14 <kirkwood> … based on target audience and conformance here are methods to meet that
15:19:32 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:19:32 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say that while it wasn't what I expected, it's still an interesting take that we may want to consider as a different exercise.
15:19:40 <kirkwood> … think this would be a different type of proposal, good starting point
15:19:41 <Chuck> +1 to shawn
15:19:51 <Lauriat> ack janina
15:21:18 <kirkwood> Janina: your survey of differnt types of audio, bring in pronunciation support for TTS. we don’t have markup for bleeps but limited, probably want to make sure they don’t get captioned. need an index for them
15:21:54 <kirkwood> Shawn: i have develpers asking how to implement earcons, thats complicated
15:22:36 <kirkwood> Shawn: someone drafting slides to summarize… what should we start out to summarize?
15:23:13 <jeanne> Alt text proposal -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dOESQPFibABFOwIYnHRGgyggswEKjqHTXmrw4hl1o48/edit#
15:23:14 <kirkwood> Janina: i think we need to review, proposal for alt text for example
15:24:13 <kirkwood> Jeanne: have top part of example, Makoto had part and Suzanne has approach
15:24:42 <kirkwood> Shawn: we set out to write user needs want to summarize to WG
15:25:08 <kirkwood> … from there can build up and get into how to potentially test these things
15:25:14 <Lauriat> q?
15:25:18 <Chuck> q+
15:25:38 <kirkwood> Jeanne: looking at documents
15:25:43 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:26:37 <kirkwood> Charles: could we go mack to Suzanne, its meaningful and fascinating, does she have enough time to shift left to perhaps make decionsion tree for that. do we have enough time?
15:26:47 <kirkwood> Shawn: don’t think we have time
15:27:14 <Chuck> +1
15:27:20 <kirkwood> Shawn: should work on focus of presention, maybe Suzanne could move this bit in parallel
15:27:40 <Chuck> +1 +1 = +1
15:27:47 <Chuck> q+
15:27:51 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:28:20 <kirkwood> Chuck: we can us Makoto’s as our primary, the earlier stuff in Suzanne that still aligns
15:28:43 <kirkwood> Shawn:  for our presentation start with goals at top of google doc
15:29:26 <kirkwood> Shawn: foru gooalsk.. preserve knowledge, focus on users, clear language, define guidance that’s efficient
15:29:34 <kirkwood> … how did we do on those goals?
15:29:58 <jeanne> Presentation for AGWG -> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UpBHL1DBezcFu-IuExakvEYJkWzZwFniE0gelPkDDkI/
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15:30:02 <kirkwood> … defining guidance clear we took baby steps became very complex
15:30:31 <kirkwood> … in writing in terms of user needs for each is prohibitively complex
15:30:31 <Chuck> q+
15:30:39 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:30:45 <Chuck> you answered my q
15:31:05 <Chuck> q+
15:31:18 <kirkwood> … we can highligh going through common and unique needs in groups and going down to outcomes and landscape of graphics and boil it down
15:31:35 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
15:32:11 <kirkwood> Chuck: presentation specific on how to structure, present first results Makoto then part two analysis of process we used and challenges?
15:32:25 <kirkwood> Shawn: seems readonable
15:32:53 <kirkwood> Jeanne: first results then analysis of process?
15:33:04 <kirkwood> Chuck: yeah
15:33:56 <kirkwood> Shawn: two questions, given explorations done and thinking through enirety of WCAG today, how does that feel in coming up with these kin of outcomes for all the rest of guidance?
15:34:09 <kirkwood> Shawn: for me i like it
15:34:47 <kirkwood> Janina: i agree i like the user centric orientation and its results oriented
15:35:17 <kirkwood> Shawn: focus on supporting technologies
15:35:45 <Chuck> q+
15:35:48 <kirkwood> Janina: side benefit puts more pressure on user agents to deliver, might be powerful
15:35:54 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
15:35:55 <kirkwood> Shawn: exactly
15:36:33 <kirkwood> Chuck: takes a step closer to user understanding structure of page earlier than assitive
15:36:43 <kirkwood> Shawn: involves entire stack
15:37:12 <Chuck> agreed, still shifts closer to the user.
15:37:21 <kirkwood> Shawn: can work through author or platform itself providing the information
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15:38:27 <kirkwood> Shawn: for example captions they are provided both live and prerecorded through no effort on the aurthors part essentially through assistive technology
15:38:48 <Chuck> +1 yes!
15:38:57 <kirkwood> Shawn: risk of lexiblity those who want concrete thats where Suzanne’s deciions tree comes into play
15:39:06 <Chuck> q+
15:39:15 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
15:39:26 <kirkwood> Janina: Suzannes’ decison tree could be technical implemntation
15:40:03 <kirkwood> Charles: not minor effort recommend many groups working on different parts?
15:40:54 <Rachael> Q+
15:41:15 <kirkwood> Charles: shifting about process, not a minor amount of work. variety of small groups working on different parts asynchronously?
15:41:25 <kirkwood> Shawn: probably
15:41:35 <Chuck> +1
15:41:48 <kirkwood> … good way to bring in key stake holders early
15:41:53 <Lauriat> ack Rachael
15:42:20 <jeanne> q+
15:42:29 <kirkwood> Rachael: observing process, not sure how to recommend, outside of scope, but do agree in that recommendation
15:42:34 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
15:43:06 <kirkwood> Jeanne: have we reached conclusions can reach outcomes?
15:43:10 <Chuck> It feels like we can.
15:43:37 <kirkwood> Shawn: the outcome and effort to arrive at it in the exercise several feel its doable and worth effort
15:44:11 <kirkwood> … need to bring to group should be a particualer proposal, what question do we want to bring to group, or do we wnat to?
15:44:50 <kirkwood> Jeanne: the conclusion on a broad level, we don’t want to write outcomes as user needs we want both
15:45:35 <kirkwood> Jeanne: user needs are more informative and educational and outcomes are more requirement oriented, i think?
15:46:53 <kirkwood> Shawn: for outcome in Makoto document we have a more user-centric outcome more powerful than a technical outcome, more a usability requirement than an implementation requirement
15:47:20 <kirkwood> Shawn: i think Sarah would be better at picking apart
15:48:01 <jeanne> Presentation Draft -> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UpBHL1DBezcFu-IuExakvEYJkWzZwFniE0gelPkDDkI/
15:48:04 <kirkwood> … like ot get started with shape of presentation for presenting in a week and a half.
15:48:43 <kirkwood> Jeanne: anyone who’d like to can fill in details or rearranging
15:49:34 <kirkwood> Shawn: it would be good to speak to realization of shifting from set of technical quidance to a set of user experience guidance
15:49:53 <kirkwood> … the conclusion slide is a good start for that
15:50:59 <kirkwood> Jeanne: start out with goals, then approach common and unique user needs, alt text example, captions example, some of results
15:51:44 <kirkwood> … shifting from technical guidance to user experience orinted process
15:51:59 <kirkwood> … Chuck wanted to do analyis and had input
15:52:10 <kirkwood> Jeanne: fix it Chuck ;
15:53:02 <kirkwood> … end up user-centric result oriented
15:53:11 <kirkwood> continue to go through presnetation changes
15:53:39 <kirkwood> Shawn: can talk through very specific exmaples
15:54:24 <kirkwood> … thinking about the Japan screen reader will change a lot of how approch missing ARIA support
15:54:48 <kirkwood> Jeanne: I’m capturing it
15:55:05 <kirkwood> Chuck: progress
15:55:23 <kirkwood> Shawn: have together by next friday?
15:55:53 <kirkwood> Shawn: with what to ask larger group
15:56:08 <kirkwood> Jeanne: can people add in thoughts into slides
15:56:55 <kirkwood> Jeanne: lets please take a look at it this week add thoughts
15:57:14 <kirkwood> Jeanne: key pople aren’t here today I will email to add thoughts
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15:58:14 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/02-silver-minutes.html jeanne
16:08:55 <jeanne> regrets+ Makoto, Suzanne, Sarah
16:27:23 <Rachael> +1
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