17:47:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:47:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/12/01-aria-irc
17:47:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:47:16 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:47:21 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:47:26 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:47:26 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:47:26 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20221201T130000
17:47:26 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:47:26 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3VzqbxN
17:47:27 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3ihwp6Z
17:47:29 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:47:32 <agendabot> agenda+  -> ACT/ARIA Review https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1847
17:47:35 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+
17:56:47 <chlane> chlane has joined #aria
17:58:50 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
18:00:01 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:00:07 <MichaelC> present+
18:01:03 <Adam_Page> present+
18:01:03 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #aria
18:01:07 <chlane> present+
18:02:01 <jamesn> regrets+ PeterKrautzberger
18:02:10 <daniel-montalvo> present+
18:02:29 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
18:02:37 <Wilco> present+
18:02:43 <chlane> scribe; chlane
18:02:45 <jamesn> present+
18:02:52 <chlane> scribe: chlane
18:03:47 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:04:16 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:04:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3VzqbxN -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:04:25 <StefanS> present+
18:04:46 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:05:09 <chlane> dpubaam 16
18:05:32 <chlane> jamesn: sounds like a PR is the easiest way
18:05:55 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
18:05:57 <scotto> present+
18:05:58 <chlane> jamesn: who is the editor
18:06:05 <chlane> martt garrish
18:06:12 <chlane> assigning to matt
18:06:17 <CurtBellew> present+
18:06:27 <chlane> aria act rules review
18:06:36 <chlane> go over later
18:06:48 <chlane> #176 accname
18:07:08 <chlane> would not pick up aria description from there
18:07:12 <chlane> adding editorial note
18:07:19 <chlane> milestoning next year
18:07:35 <chlane> adam page will rewrite
18:07:44 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:07:44 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3ihwp6Z -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:07:57 <chlane> html aam pr #446
18:08:05 <chlane> popover related attributes
18:08:11 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria
18:08:24 <chlane> jamesn: no reviewers needed but can volunteer if involved
18:08:30 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
18:08:30 <chlane> scotto: not complete yet
18:09:41 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:09:41 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:09:54 <chlane> next week we have
18:10:01 <chlane> aria-flowto
18:10:12 <chlane> jamesn: no more slots for this year
18:10:30 <chlane> jamesn: propose no more this year
18:10:46 <chlane> jamesn: resolved
18:10:47 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:10:47 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> ACT/ARIA Review https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1847 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:11:12 <chlane> Wilco:
18:11:32 <chlane> act is a project in the a11y guidelines working group
18:11:50 <chlane> 8 years working to get orgs to test wcag consistently
18:11:54 <chlane> tools focus
18:11:57 <spectranaut> spectranaut has joined #aria
18:12:00 <chlane> manual testing methodologies
18:12:04 <spectranaut> present+
18:12:16 <chlane> developed ACT rules format as a w3c recommedation
18:12:22 <chlane> for how to write rules
18:12:35 <chlane> applicability/expactations
18:12:50 <chlane> effectively and few requirements
18:12:56 <chlane> used in tools to verify
18:13:14 <chlane> have a lot of wcag rules and some ARIA rules
18:13:22 <chlane> wcag/aria overlap
18:13:34 <chlane> is where my ask for this groups come in
18:13:42 <chlane> WCAG/ARIA has overlap
18:14:08 <chlane> ACT is a task force, need a Working group to say yay or nay
18:14:27 <chlane> to "how we think aria should be tested"
18:14:36 <chlane> jamesn: take us through one of these rules
18:14:59 <chlane> jamesn: glossary forms a significant part of the length of the rule
18:15:12 <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/6a7281/proposed/
18:15:18 <chlane> know how these are constucted to prevent duplication
18:15:38 <chlane> "aria state or property has valid value"
18:15:56 <chlane> Descriptions, Applicability, Expectation, Assumptions
18:16:23 <chlane> applicability looks for non empty values on svg or html elements
18:16:35 <chlane> any element with aria attributes
18:16:44 <chlane> expectation, a valid value
18:16:51 <chlane> value types are defined
18:17:13 <chlane> ID reference rules are in question
18:17:20 <chlane> need ARIA WG opinion
18:17:25 <chlane> jamesn: see contradiction
18:17:42 <chlane> Wilco: generic URI syntax
18:17:51 <chlane> does ARIA require this?
18:18:02 <chlane> do we have value types in URI?
18:18:03 <chlane> we do
18:18:13 <chlane> Wilco: assumptions, related to wcag
18:18:23 <chlane> theoretical false positive opportunity
18:18:31 <chlane> interpretation questions
18:18:48 <chlane> background provides more details
18:18:54 <chlane> bibliography,
18:19:12 <chlane> accessibility requirements mapping, habe no or unknown mapping
18:19:32 <chlane> input aspects, the info necessary to run test, access to DOM, CSS
18:19:37 <chlane> test cases
18:19:50 <chlane> pass fail and inapplicable
18:20:04 <chlane> Glossary, has definitions
18:20:20 <chlane> 'namespaced element', 'outcome'
18:20:30 <chlane> links to specs
18:20:58 <jcraig> q+ to say I think URI may have been proposed for aria`describedat`but I don't see any current URI types https://w3c.github.io/aria/#propcharacteristic_value
18:21:12 <chlane> implementations, list of tools and testing methodologies that have know consistency with the rule
18:21:19 <jcraig> q+ to ask why the list version locks it to 1.2
18:21:26 <chlane> Wilco: questions?
18:21:48 <chlane> StefanS: are axe and AMP related?
18:22:13 <chlane> Wilco: not a question for ACT task force
18:22:26 <chlane> Wilco: this list comes for orgs that publish test results
18:22:47 <chlane> orgs who want to can run there test methods and tools against this
18:23:00 <chlane> list of orgs and tools that have done that work
18:23:22 <chlane> jamesn: I think we look through all pass fail examples
18:23:44 <jcraig> ack me
18:23:44 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say I think URI may have been proposed for aria`describedat`but I don't see any current URI types https://w3c.github.io/aria/#propcharacteristic_value and to
18:23:46 <chlane> jamesn: why put in passing failing examples
18:23:47 <Zakim> ... ask why the list version locks it to 1.2
18:23:52 <jamesn> q+ cyns
18:24:12 <chlane> jcraig: URI had been proposed with describedat
18:24:34 <chlane> the applicability and expectations sections list aria 1.2
18:24:45 <chlane> wondering why
18:24:57 <chlane> Wilco: not sure how else to do it
18:25:08 <scotto> q+
18:25:18 <chlane> Wilco: what do we do with aria 1.3?
18:25:32 <jamesn> qq+
18:25:37 <chlane> jcraig: just link to top level of ARIA?
18:25:45 <jamesn> ack me
18:25:45 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to react to jcraig
18:25:50 <chlane> Wilco: have to worry about versions
18:25:58 <chlane> jamesn: 1.1 rules not valid in 1.2
18:26:17 <chlane> jamesn: version specifics are a good idea
18:26:36 <chlane> Wilco: we review rules once a year
18:26:47 <chlane> living documents not parked
18:27:03 <jamesn> ack cyns
18:27:15 <chlane> Wilco: inconsistencies happen as these things evolve
18:27:22 <jamesn> q+ StefanS
18:27:47 <chlane> cyn: aria conformance test suite source for additional rules?
18:27:59 <chlane> Wilco: it might be interesting to explore
18:28:09 <jamesn> ack scotto
18:28:33 <chlane> scotto: 2 things, specific versioning it would be great if can not do it in case we go to living standard model
18:28:40 <chlane> no such thing as version numbers
18:28:51 <chlane> expecially in this space
18:29:00 <chlane> rules may not help people anymore
18:29:07 <chlane> second thing,
18:29:27 <jamesn> ack StefanS
18:30:03 <chlane> StefanS: these rules are defined and correctly spelled, allowed/not allowed overrides
18:30:24 <chlane> override checks?
18:30:39 <chlane> Wilco: a separate rule
18:30:53 <chlane> StefanS: super helpful with discussions with developers
18:31:01 <chlane> these cases are detected late
18:31:20 <chlane> jamesn: not pure ARIA html/aam rule
18:31:30 <chlane> aria in html
18:31:42 <chlane> jamesn: how to review
18:31:53 <chlane> Wilco: not a tight timeline
18:31:59 <chlane> Wilco: years to go
18:32:11 <chlane> piecemeal approach is good
18:32:16 <chlane> start with one
18:32:50 <chlane> Wilco: announcing a formal list of implementations
18:32:55 <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/implementations/
18:33:11 <chlane> jamesn: any rules that those things are checking that you are asking us to review
18:33:26 <chlane> Wilco: the proposed rules
18:33:35 <chlane> need our agreement
18:34:05 <chlane> Wilco: no rush, start with 1 or 2, what is the preferred way for this group to survey things?
18:34:30 <chlane> jamesn: concerned with rules already approved that the group won't agree with?
18:34:50 <chlane> jamesn: anything with ARIA should go through this group
18:35:04 <chlane> Wilco: no ARIA specific rules
18:35:10 <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/
18:35:16 <chlane> jamesn: proposed rules for wcag look aria specific
18:35:39 <chlane> rules beyond wcag include ARIA rules
18:35:43 <chlane> there is overlap
18:35:55 <chlane> jamesn: I'd like to set timelines
18:36:05 <chlane> when are you looking for feedback
18:36:11 <chlane> Wilco: no timeline
18:36:38 <chlane> in an ongoing process to get a very lengthy list approved
18:36:50 <chlane> working in batches with WCAG
18:37:04 <chlane> we would do that every few months
18:37:24 <chlane> jamesn: filing an issue will be good
18:37:43 <chlane> jamesn: this is important for content creation
18:38:03 <chlane> jamesn: encourage a careful eye
18:38:19 <chlane> Wilco: would love more rules to write
18:38:45 <chlane> jamesn: go through spec and look for authors MUST
18:39:12 <chlane> cyns see core aam as well
18:39:26 <chlane> svg and css should be looked at too
18:39:42 <chlane> jamesn: we used to avoid authors 'must'
18:39:52 <chlane> we didn't have tests
18:40:00 <Wilco> q+
18:40:11 <chlane> cyns, aria authors must in 1.3
18:40:37 <chlane> cyns looking for things that will become author must in 1.2
18:40:58 <chlane> jamesn: we created test cases, not as detailed with multiple pass/fails
18:41:16 <jamesn> ack Wilco
18:41:43 <chlane> Wilco: we think there are places that there should be authr must and should
18:42:07 <chlane> jamesn: show of hands for interested
18:42:13 <Adam_Page> I’m interested
18:42:26 <chlane> I'm interested as well
18:42:26 <spectranaut> I'm interested
18:42:30 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
18:42:34 <CurtBellew> I'm interested.
18:42:38 <scotto> happy to review as well
18:43:01 <melsumner> I've already been reviewing them :) Excited about this project, and ember-template-lint has some good a11y rules too.
18:43:05 <chlane> jamesn: if you are creating frameworks you should review this
18:43:21 <chlane> spectranaut: talk about how to split up work
18:43:49 <chlane> spectranaut: in the issue, you can list the one's you have reviewed
18:44:02 <chlane> comment that you looked at the whole thing
18:44:18 <chlane> scotto: good place to move to discussions
18:44:48 <chlane> jamesn: using discussions and threads for each rule
18:44:55 <chlane> and glossary definition
18:45:14 <chlane> jamesn: only downside
18:45:20 <chlane> they don't query the same way
18:45:27 <chlane> we have to remember to look at them
18:46:11 <jamesn> q?
18:46:34 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:46:34 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+ -- taken up [from
18:46:37 <Zakim> ... agendabot]
18:46:40 <chlane> jamesn:
18:47:07 <chlane> jamesn: no movement
18:47:29 <chlane> great to get some movement, some will go away with Sarah's descendant issue
18:47:43 <chlane> jamesn: has that one had any progress?
18:47:59 <chlane> jcraig: suggested another name
18:48:14 <chlane> child, descendant parent has baggage from DOM
18:48:24 <chlane> jamesn: 1454
18:48:44 <chlane> jamesn: were close
18:50:02 <chlane> scotto: prefer ancestor roles
18:50:31 <chlane> in html aam been working on
18:50:42 <chlane> the concept of scoped elements in html
18:50:53 <chlane> and how roles are related based on that
18:51:07 <chlane> that is where my terminology is going
18:51:19 <chlane> jamesn: if you can all agree that is great
18:51:30 <chlane> jamesn: last thing other than tests to merge
18:51:45 <chlane> jamesn: coming to concencus just worried about naming
18:52:21 <chlane> jamesn: if we are going to use a word that has another meaning in the DOM
18:52:26 <chlane> we need to clarify
18:52:41 <chlane> jcraig: fwiw, drop context role
18:52:59 <chlane> requiredaccessibiltyancestor
18:53:12 <chlane> Adam_Page: working on pr related to ownership
18:53:15 <chlane> ancestry
18:53:30 <chlane> can be another candidate for naming
18:53:42 <chlane> jcraig: inclusivity, like master slave
18:54:03 <chlane> jamesn: allowed elements rather than owns
18:54:18 <chlane> cyns aria owns does not change a11y tree
18:54:31 <chlane> jcraig: complicated but will get it done
18:54:56 <chlane> cyns is heirarchy a11y tree?
18:54:58 <chlane> jcraig: yes
18:55:03 <jamesn> q+ siri
18:55:16 <chlane> cyns add a11y tree things to glossary
18:55:23 <chlane> more clarification would be good
18:55:36 <chlane> sarah
18:55:46 <chlane> same as original problem
18:55:56 <chlane> direct ancestor and descendant
18:56:06 <chlane> jamesn: objected to DOM meanings
18:56:16 <chlane> need to be unambiguous
18:56:32 <chlane> melsumner: not talking about dom anymore?
18:56:40 <chlane> cyns like proposal
18:56:52 <chlane> cyns talk about both in same paragraph
18:57:14 <jamesn> ack siri
18:57:17 <chlane> siri: aria-owns
18:57:27 <chlane> issues comboboxes
18:57:39 <chlane> when I raised issues and point to 1.2
18:57:56 <chlane> developers cant implement
18:58:04 <chlane> when will it be ready?
18:58:12 <chlane> jamesn: soon 1.2 will go to pr
18:58:26 <chlane> jamesn: core-aam is in CR
18:58:35 <chlane> jamesn: have passing test
18:58:44 <chlane> cyns; once in pr, how long?
18:58:52 <chlane> jamesn: 30 days?
18:59:16 <chlane> MichaelC: 30 day for CR review by advisory committee
18:59:38 <chlane> MichaelC: no objections can go to req
18:59:49 <chlane> jamesn: many people a PR is good
19:00:29 <chlane> jamesn: anyone doing a 1.1 combobox is making more work
19:00:45 <chlane> cyns this happens in big companies
19:00:51 <chlane> cyns, timeline?
19:01:08 <chlane> jamesn: working on it, before xkmas
19:01:13 <chlane> end of january
19:01:17 <chlane> 2023
19:01:23 <chlane> cyns will say q1
19:01:35 <chlane> jamesn: how to get 1.3 draft out
19:01:46 <chlane> zakim, end meeting
19:01:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been MichaelC, Adam_Page, chlane, daniel-montalvo, Wilco, jamesn, StefanS, scotto, CurtBellew, bgaraventa, spectranaut
19:01:49 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:01:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/01-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:01:51 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, chlane; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:01:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:03:13 <jcraig> DPUB-AAM issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643
19:03:17 <jcraig> PR: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aam/pull/15
19:04:05 <jcraig> The PR is Apple API specific, but IMO, other APIs may want to do something similar to not overload their AT users with verbose minutia.
19:04:23 <jcraig> Reviewers requested. Thanks.
19:04:53 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:04:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/01-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:16:41 <chlane> quit
20:09:23 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria
21:22:59 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria
22:49:22 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
23:09:36 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria