IRC log of aria-apg on 2022-11-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:56:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:56:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-irc
18:57:38 [isaacdurazo]
isaacdurazo has joined #aria-apg
19:00:36 [Jem]
Jem has joined #aria-apg
19:00:50 [Jem]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
19:01:08 [Matt_King]
MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
19:01:15 [Jem]
present+
19:01:18 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make log public
19:01:22 [Matt_King]
present+
19:01:29 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
19:02:22 [Jem]
present+ siri
19:02:47 [Siri]
Siri has joined #aria-apg
19:02:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg
19:02:56 [Siri]
Present+
19:03:09 [Jem]
present+ Helen
19:03:13 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
19:03:19 [Jem]
present+ alex
19:03:47 [isaacdurazo]
present+
19:03:48 [Jem]
present+ howard
19:04:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/November-29%2C-2022-Agenda
19:04:59 [Siri]
present +
19:05:00 [howard-e]
present+
19:05:09 [MarkMcCarthy]
scribe+
19:05:11 [howard-e]
howard-e has joined #aria-apg
19:05:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Setup and Review Agenda
19:05:28 [helen]
helen has joined #aria-apg
19:05:29 [howard-e]
present+
19:05:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: Holiday season is here, let's discuss Dec and Jan meetings
19:05:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: and we have lots to do, everyone has to work through! [laughs]
19:06:12 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we'll definitely meet on the 6th and 13th
19:06:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: the 20th is cutting it close to holiday breaks
19:06:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: may need to do some async work
19:07:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: alex, are there any bocoup people working that week?
19:07:10 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: not sure
19:07:41 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: hoping to get first support tables from aria-at published, the restructure launched (Which needs redirect work yet)
19:08:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: should we plan NOT to meet the 20th, 27th, and the 3rd?
19:08:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: definitely not on the 27th and 3rd
19:09:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: two big things are landing the restructure and tables..
19:09:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: sounds like it's mainly bocoup work, right?
19:09:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we've already done design reviews among us
19:09:37 [Jem]
present+ isaac
19:10:10 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: okay, let's cancel 20th, 27th, and 3rd meetings
19:10:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: second
19:10:41 [isaacdurazo]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2520
19:10:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: isaacdurazo, can you add a link to the redesign?
19:10:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: yes, above
19:11:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: i'll find time to add my comments
19:11:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Review design of option for viewing patterns and practices in a list
19:11:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: before we launched the redesign, Shawn Henry gave us feedback, and we got the same feedback afterwards
19:11:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: some folks think the card design is too much scrolling
19:12:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: something like a list view
19:12:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if we DID include that, it'd be optional
19:12:22 [Jem]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2534
19:12:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: someone could choose card view or list view
19:12:29 [isaacdurazo]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2534
19:12:51 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: here are mockups of an alternative view
19:13:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: i'm also adding a search box
19:13:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: should hopefully be a live filter
19:14:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: it's just a search for the patterns?
19:14:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: yes
19:14:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: would we want a whole search for the APG?
19:14:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: maybe the "Search" on the pattern page is more of a filter, i'm now realizing
19:15:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: though i think this filter is useful
19:16:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: i also included your feedback in this latest mockup, matt
19:16:38 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: it might be an issue calling it "grid view" if we're not using aria-grid. maybe "card view"
19:16:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: that's a common name too, shouldn't be confusing, i like that
19:17:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so in patterns and practices, we have iconography for different items - is this design adaptable to one whre there aren't unique icons for every topic?
19:18:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: yeah, i think so. if an item doesn't have an icon, the space for the icon can be blank, and we'll align the text
19:18:41 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if we didn't have one, maybe a bullet icon or something?
19:18:56 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: yeah, we can think of a placeholder. i don't think we need an icon for EVERYTHING
19:19:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: does this seem like something that should move forward? feedback?
19:19:56 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: can you explain a bit what you mean about icons everywhere?
19:20:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: the about page will look more like this in the future, so thinking about that - everything may not or should not need an icon
19:20:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: makes sense
19:20:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: this is the same for practices, too
19:21:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: the concepts there are a bit more abstract, so difficult to represent visually
19:22:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: great, this sounds good, engineering can proceed then unless there's concerns
19:23:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: i'll make sure i clarify that the current "search" is a filter
19:23:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: what's the timeline to see implementation of this?
19:24:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
isaacdurazo: howard, alex?
19:24:41 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: i can probably do it, but depends on when things get merged
19:24:53 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: support tables are probably a higher priority
19:24:59 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: so it'd be after that as well
19:25:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: QA results for restructured repository
19:25:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: thank you SO MUCH to everyone who's done reviews on this
19:25:53 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there were lots of comments about link text - all of those changes were intentional
19:26:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there were some other content changes that i'm pretty sure were intentional but i'm going to make sure
19:26:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there was a lot about spacing and color in different places
19:27:09 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: lots about it being better in the preview than production, and want to make sure there's consensus
19:27:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: i've been keeping track of feedback, waiting for marching orders.
19:28:18 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: i can summarize our feedback and share to the group to make it easier for everyone
19:29:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: let's talk about font size, spacing, and color - where are things problematic?
19:29:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: font size changes, sounds like none of that was desirable. right?
19:29:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: yes
19:29:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: was that unintentional?
19:29:36 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: not intentional, but i havne't looked into it
19:30:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we made changes to warning, advisement, and note class
19:30:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: my recollection is those changes were good, having headings is good. but small things, like capital letters
19:31:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
helen: i think the style in the preview version looks nicer, a bit more modern. the current warning has a red box all the way around, the new one looks nicer
19:31:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: that was to make the warnings consistent with advisement and notes, just different colors
19:32:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there's still a wording difference, right? so it's not just color differentiating them, right?
19:32:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: usually warnings started with IMPORTANT, advisement with CAUTION, notes with NOTE
19:32:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i'm not sure we need both advisement and warning - there's differences between notes and warnings, though
19:34:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
helen: i also like that the preview has more padding between the headings and navigation menu, which i like a lot more
19:34:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: thank you for noticing, I feel validated! [laughs]
19:35:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: an excellent change! maybe we'll want to consider if we need notes AND warnings in the future. but THAT seems like an existing inconsistency, so i'm not super worried now
19:35:59 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: seems like one thing to fix is the font sizing. spacing, colors, are okay?
19:36:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: there's broken links we have to fix
19:36:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: just because the branches are different
19:36:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: what about the footer links?
19:36:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: well THAT's a bug
19:37:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: jon mentioned that the carousels are broken
19:37:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: i'll work on that too
19:40:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: alex, there's also some merge conflicts, can you look at them or let me know if you need help?
19:40:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: i'm not sure how to pre-emptively solve that, but i think i know what's going on. just cant figure out how to placate github
19:41:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
alex: easily possible i'm also confused
19:41:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: aria-practices.html is getting deleted, so shouldn't be conflicting. weird, maybe something got restored that shouldn't have
19:42:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: New Issue Action Planning
19:42:36 [Jem]
Rating slider is not a good pattern #2501(https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2501)
19:42:37 [Github]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2501 : Rating slider is not a good pattern
19:43:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i'd like Jon and James here for this one, so maybe we'll defer it
19:44:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
Navigation Treeview Example #2477(https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2477)
19:44:19 [Github]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2477 : Navigation Treeview Example
19:44:31 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Nav Treeview Example
19:44:36 [MarkMcCarthy]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2477
19:45:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so this isn't working properly for Talkback... I know we did some testing on iOS and Android without screenreaders to make sure they at least functioned. but there isn't support for the tree role in iOS or Android as far as I know
19:46:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: this might be a nonissue for us... may be an OS thing if there's no mapping
19:47:11 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: is this a bug in the code that would NOT require a change to the design of the pattern? or could this be Talkback not distinguishing between activation and expansion?
19:47:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: i could try it and see how it goes, can add comments here
19:48:03 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there's no support for the tree role in Android, so we shouldn't expect it to work. but if it's a matter of something small...
19:50:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: how do you know they're expandable parent items?
19:51:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: there's a right arrow facing the word, that when expanded turns into a downward arrow showing the child items
19:51:53 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we -could- make the arrow icon itself something that talkback can focus on to open the child menu, but then it might have to exist outside of the tree
19:53:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i don't think theres any way to structure a treeitem such that the icon is separate from the link, AND have them both in the treeitem
19:54:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if the icons are outside the links but inside the list items, they might work? hmm
19:54:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i don't think there's a straightforward way to do that
19:55:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jem: plus the arrow icons look like indicators more than an actionable item
19:56:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: the arrows themselves do appear actionable, though are small targets to click on,
19:57:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: and a keyboard user can expand/collapse the list items with the left and right arrow keys
19:57:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: yes
19:58:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: can you do the same on android? expand the treeitems without changing the page?
19:58:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: i have to zoom in a bunch, but yes
19:59:13 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: sounds like we're uncovering some stuff. but it might depend on what iOS and Android do, and/or what JAWS and NVDA do with touch events rather than keyboard or mouse
19:59:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i would guess screen readers should perceive the arrows as something different, but as is not sure they would
20:01:12 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we'll need to think about whether it's possible to structure this so there's an aelement for expand/collapse outside of the treeitem, that's recognizable by touch screen readers
20:01:38 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: sounds like it has to be outside of the treeitem but inside the tree. not sure how ARIA would handle that, as it relates to child items etc.
20:02:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: this could end up being an ARIA problem - how to make a tree itself accessible to touch-based screen readers
20:02:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: sounds like this is a bigger question then - and a matter of solving some other accessibility issues
20:03:09 [MarkMcCarthy]
zakim, who is here?
20:03:09 [Zakim]
Present: Jem, Matt_King, siri, Helen, MarkMcCarthy, alex, isaacdurazo, howard, howard-e
20:03:12 [Zakim]
On IRC I see helen, howard-e, MarkMcCarthy, Siri, Jem, isaacdurazo, RRSAgent, Zakim, Matt_King, jamesn, github-bot, MichaelC, Mike5Matrix, Github, ZoeBijl, trackbot
20:03:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
present- howard
20:03:22 [MarkMcCarthy]
regrets+ JonGund CurtBellew
20:03:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Talk to you all next week!
20:03:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:03:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
20:03:59 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:03:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
22:14:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg
23:46:53 [MichaelC_]
MichaelC_ has joined #aria-apg