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14:44:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/24-pcg-a11y-irc
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14:44:21 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:44:21 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:45:20 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:45:30 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:46:11 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Further discussion on the feedback for User experience guide for displaying accessibility metadata.
14:46:31 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
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14:59:39 <gpellegrino> present+
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15:04:39 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:04:39 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Further discussion on the feedback for User experience guide for displaying accessibility metadata. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:04:48 <Gautier> present+
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15:05:13 <JF> Present+
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15:05:26 <mgarrish> present+
15:05:29 <mgarrish> scribe+
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15:05:32 <JF> agenda?
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15:05:35 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/136
15:05:42 <Hadrien> present+
15:06:16 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: the issue tracker contains the history - suggested to have metadata at two levels - one is information people need to know and other is more detailed
15:06:56 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: two levels is fine but when we try to arrange them we find information is missed - e.g. saying screen reader friendly but not whether helpful for low vision or other users
15:06:56 <gpellegrino> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/139
15:07:27 <mgarrish> ... we tried to group the metadata to give users information in the categories in the issue
15:07:51 <mgarrish> ... general information is general bibliogrpaphic information, format, drm, etc.
15:08:12 <mgarrish> ... second category is about navigation - toc, page list, reading order, etc.
15:08:31 <mgarrish> ... some of these can be calculated by the conformance statement - by meeting wcag
15:08:52 <mgarrish> ... third category is whether text content is available for non-text content
15:09:40 <mgarrish> ... can you change the colour contrast, fonts, etc. - important for dyslexic readers
15:09:51 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:10:03 <mgarrish> ... fourth level is audio like media overlays
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15:10:21 <mgarrish> ... then there is accessibility conformance and all the other metadata
15:10:21 <Gautier> q+
15:10:24 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:10:39 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:10:47 <Hadrien> q+
15:12:12 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:12:20 <mgarrish> Gautier: we need to consider that there are two types of online service that will use this information - special access libraries and also more general bookshelves - there is already a lot of information in bookshelves so can't have too much more
15:12:29 <gpellegrino> q+
15:12:33 <JF> Q+
15:13:03 <mgarrish> ... need option if you don't have enough space to display a lot of metadata - you need to display the level 1 metadata in this case
15:13:35 <mgarrish> ... have to let platforms know what is the minimum expected when they can't display everything
15:13:51 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: yes, need to consider if people with go through a long list
15:13:54 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:15:09 <mgarrish> Hadrien: in our case we have implemented the accessibility metadata in aldiko and in portals - our approach has been to use a single section to group the metadata together - grouping in subsections likely won't help with readability - we've selected a subset of information that we think are the most important
15:16:04 <mgarrish> ... for everything else, we group them in a separate element for people who are interested in going beyond - same for certification information - important to know wcag info but not who checked the book, etc.
15:16:37 <mgarrish> ... balancing act between making enough information available without making it unreadable and unhelpful for readers
15:16:43 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:18:42 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: agree that we need to identify what is the most important information - by grouping by categories we get the same result but it is more concise - only nine total for grouping into short sentences to describe functionality
15:19:07 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: your proposal needs elaborating to also propose what goes into each level
15:19:18 <AvneeshSingh> ack jf
15:20:54 <mgarrish> JF: I'm concerned this is about how to present the data rather than mandating what information has to be available - some users may want info one way and others another, they have their own preferences - in wcag we could not tell the browsers what they have to do, and concern we're just telling RSes what to do - level 1 and 2 map to metadata that must be present
15:21:34 <mgarrish> ... our job is to provide the information and their job is to present it however they need - we should only focus on what metadata must be specified
15:21:35 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:22:59 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: this is the publishing cg so it is not exclusively epub context - epub defines the requirements and recommendations - we are providing suggestions on how to transform the metadata in the publications into information for users
15:23:39 <mgarrish> JF: there is a suggestion for presenting icons - excellent best practice, but are we saying they must do this
15:24:30 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: no, this is only a guideline document for retailers - they are not clear what to do with the information they find - VitalSource, for example, started by dumping the raw metadata
15:25:54 <mgarrish> JF: some of these recommendations will be useful for some users but not for all - if the goal is only to provide guidance then we should show examples - there may be more than one way of rendering this information
15:26:37 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: yes, there could be multiple suggestions depending on the expected users - expect that Charles will be a liaison with the personalization TF
15:28:17 <mgarrish> JF: not really the focus of that group - helping users with pictograms - are we saying that we want a standardized set of icons? - many ways of rendering controls that allows them to retain the same information - e.g. users know a triangle is a start button
15:28:51 <mgarrish> ... presentation is going to be a schematic choice - what we propose may not work with branding of vendors
15:29:19 <mgarrish> ... I understand the need and desire but we are constrained in what we can mandate people do
15:29:50 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: these are only meant as suggestions - vendors do not have to follow it exactly
15:30:16 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:30:18 <mgarrish> ... when we discuss this retailers they are saying that these are important guidlines they need
15:30:40 <mgarrish> s/guidlines/guidelines/
15:31:07 <gpellegrino> q+
15:31:07 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: at level one we need to know format, drm, reflowable or fxl
15:31:25 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:31:56 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: for this metadata since they are not only accessibility perhaps they should not be in the accessibility section but elsewhere in the metadata
15:32:04 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:32:16 <Gautier> yes
15:32:22 <Hadrien> +1
15:33:00 <gpellegrino> q+
15:33:06 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: one issue from Charles is that he wants the certification information, not just the conformance statement - certifier info, badges, etc.
15:33:07 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:33:11 <Gautier> q+
15:33:24 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:33:39 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: my personal view, not LIA, is that it is a tricky thing about who certified
15:33:57 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:34:36 <mgarrish> Gautier: I agree it is a difficult issue - in France I don't think publishers will go into a certification process so don't want this reported
15:35:48 <gpellegrino> q+
15:36:09 <gpellegrino> q-
15:36:11 <mgarrish> ... there is a lot of other information that comes when reporting certifiers - we only use conforms to as it is more easily understood - we will give a link to the report and you can find the certifier information that way
15:36:47 <Hadrien> q+
15:36:49 <JF> @gpellegrino is pointing out my concern in reality
15:36:55 <mgarrish> ... this works for Thorium but it may not work for others - Kobo will not add a link to external pages for security reasons and don't want users leaving their site
15:37:34 <mgarrish> ... some publishers said they could put the link into the content of the book so that you can reach it from their
15:37:50 <mgarrish> s/it from their/it from there/
15:38:16 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:38:16 <JF> +1 to Avneesh... this becomes a slippery slpe
15:38:18 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: seems like this could lead to us having to standardize the reports
15:38:20 <MiiaK> q+
15:38:27 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:38:28 <JF> s/slpe/slope
15:39:16 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:39:25 <mgarrish> Hadrien: geography definitely has an impact - find inconsistencies in how information is expressed - people use the EPUb spec as their accessibility report - makes it hard to have this as top-level information
15:39:41 <mgarrish> s/EPUb/EPUB/
15:39:55 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:41:10 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:41:10 <mgarrish> MiiaK: closed systems are an interesting problem that also affects libraries
15:41:52 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: adding links sounds like a problem for level 1 - we should report this back to the tracker
15:42:15 <mgarrish> ... having the conformance statement is useful, but keep the details for a lower level
15:42:17 <Hadrien> +1
15:42:20 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:42:34 <Gautier> +1
15:43:09 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: need to discuss how to express the conformance
15:43:11 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/138
15:44:02 <mgarrish> Gautier: when we've been working on prototypes and in workshops, most of the actors wanted yes or no option - want a way to say we are or are not accessible
15:44:44 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:46:43 <mgarrish> ... people in the publishing industry want conformity with the EAA but don't want complex info - users may get used to understanding the EPUB and WCAG statement but won't initially understand - maybe at the second level there should be a better description that is more human readable
15:47:23 <mgarrish> ... also should say when there is no conformance declared - don't display nothing when this is the case
15:48:11 <mgarrish> ... if there is an exception to the EAA then you need to say that - e.g., because a small publisher
15:48:52 <gpellegrino> q+
15:48:54 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:49:02 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: recap: we need to get retailers to state that the conformance is not declared and also have an explainer of what EPUB Accessiblity and WCAG conformance means
15:49:12 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:50:01 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: technical names of the specifications are confusing - difficult to achieve, but we need an explanation of what they mean
15:50:28 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: will be difficult to explain this briefly
15:50:43 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:50:48 <gpellegrino> q+
15:50:53 <JF> more importantly, is it *our* responsibility to teach everyone the differences?
15:50:59 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: how do we find the explanation?
15:51:05 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:51:34 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: another approach that we have proposed is to identify if a title is line with the requirements of the EAA - but this is a localized approach for Europe
15:52:23 <gpellegrino> q+
15:52:25 <JF> Q+
15:52:26 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:52:31 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: it is an interesting topic - local areas may have different names and acts they have to conform to - should we include the local name?
15:52:51 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:52:58 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: we don't want another conformance statement but to calculate whether the title is in line with these other acts from the existing statement
15:53:00 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:53:14 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:54:37 <mgarrish> JF: concerned we're providing info to the end user, and prioritizing, but localization and translation will affect what to display - when you get down to this kind of custom-like metadata we can't tell all publishers/vendors to include/use this information
15:55:25 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:55:32 <mgarrish> ... once we get too locked down into how to present the info we're going to get pushback from vendors
15:56:26 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:56:26 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: one thing we have learned in gathering the feedback is that there needs to be flexibility - it looks like strict guidance right now but these are intended to be adapted
15:57:07 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:57:07 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Any other business. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:58:05 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/24-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
15:58:15 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
16:00:21 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, bye
16:00:21 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, gpellegrino, Gautier, JF, mgarrish, chiaradm, Hadrien
16:00:21 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pcg-a11y