14:31:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver
14:31:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/18-silver-irc
14:31:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:31:18 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:31:47 <jeanne> present:
14:31:47 <jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne
14:31:47 <jeanne> present+
14:31:47 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
14:31:47 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:31:48 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:31:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/18-silver-minutes.html jeanne
14:31:48 <jeanne> q?
14:35:52 <jeanne> agenda+ Preview of next week
14:35:52 <jeanne> agenda+ Review homework: more general outcomes with specific user needs by disability
14:55:46 <Azlan> Azlan has joined #silver
14:56:28 <Lauriat> Lauriat has joined #silver
14:56:31 <Lauriat> agenda?
14:56:37 <Lauriat> Present+
14:58:10 <janina> janina has joined #silver
14:58:31 <Rachael> present+
14:59:37 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #silver
14:59:43 <Chuck> present+
15:01:03 <janina> present+
15:01:12 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #silver
15:01:14 <kirkwood> present+
15:01:19 <Azlan> present+
15:03:06 <jeanne> regrets+ Sarah
15:03:11 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #silver
15:03:13 <janina> scribe+
15:03:24 <Makoto> present+
15:03:35 <Lauriat> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2022OctDec/0105.html
15:03:50 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
15:03:50 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Preview of next week -- taken up [from jeanne]
15:04:31 <JenStrickland> JenStrickland has joined #silver
15:04:35 <janina> Lauriat: AG will meet this coming Tuesday
15:04:36 <JenStrickland> present+
15:04:43 <janina> Lauriat: However, no Silver call next Friday
15:04:52 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
15:04:52 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Review homework: more general outcomes with specific user needs by disability -- taken up [from jeanne]
15:05:28 <janina> Lauriat: specificuser needs by disability
15:05:47 <Makoto> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dOESQPFibABFOwIYnHRGgyggswEKjqHTXmrw4hl1o48/edit#heading=h.dxv4bslptw23
15:06:10 <janina> Makoto: may have taken a different approach
15:06:27 <janina> Makoto: reviewed main functional needs and user needs docs
15:06:45 <janina> Makoto: stuck to 7 types of images enumerated by WAI tutorials
15:07:30 <janina> Makoto: wrote outcomes re alt text
15:07:38 <janina> Makoto: also tried writing methods
15:08:22 <janina> Makoto: notes he does a11y audits for clients
15:09:01 <janina> Makoto: have been collating rankings from that work on an annual basis; collating in reports for common issues
15:10:31 <janina> Makoto: Suggesting use of alt decision tree
15:10:46 <Makoto> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dOESQPFibABFOwIYnHRGgyggswEKjqHTXmrw4hl1o48/edit?usp=sharing
15:12:35 <janina> Makoto: suggesting outcomes and methods for the 7 image types can be derived from the decision tree
15:12:42 <jeanne> Alt Decision Tree -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decision-tree/
15:13:20 <janina> [people are looking at Makoto's doc]
15:13:36 <janina> Chuck: lots to absorb here
15:13:41 <Chuck> q+
15:13:48 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:13:49 <Lauriat> q+
15:14:11 <janina> Chuck: Very excellent! Need to review to comment, but really looks great
15:14:26 <Chuck> ack Lau
15:14:32 <jeanne> q+ to say the link to the user needs
15:14:42 <janina> Lauriat: agree; particular articulation of user needs
15:15:02 <Chuck> ack Jea
15:15:02 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say the link to the user needs
15:15:23 <janina> jeanne: like the clear tie to user needs in the methods
15:17:12 <janina> jeanne: Believe this demonstrates taking functional needs from that articulated doc; then generate userneeds followed by specific methods
15:17:43 <Lauriat> q+
15:17:44 <janina> Makoto: not sure whether this approach will work for other criteria
15:17:59 <Chuck> +1 on "mind changing" :-)
15:18:21 <janina> jeanne: Like how we can go directly to user needs from the functional
15:19:00 <janina> Lauriat: this can also inform other parts of our spec; e.g. common images like print
15:19:28 <janina> Lauriat: could even support image recognition generated alt for common images
15:20:18 <JenStrickland> q+
15:20:22 <Chuck> ack
15:20:23 <Lauriat> ack me
15:20:35 <Lauriat> ack JenStrickland
15:22:07 <Lauriat> q+
15:23:01 <janina> JenStrickland: trying to understand our assignment
15:23:44 <janina> Lauriat: yes, believe decision tree can be extended to support this beyond alt
15:24:05 <JenStrickland> Ah, yes! Thank you, Lauriat, the tree is great!
15:24:33 <Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/informative/
15:24:40 <janina> Lauriat: walks through an example of how that might work ...
15:25:00 <janina> Lauriat: even to ACT style decisioning
15:25:30 <janina> Lauriat: e.g. two phone numbers one with a fax icon, the other with a phone icon
15:27:26 <Chuck> q+ kirkwood
15:27:28 <Chuck> ack lau
15:27:30 <Chuck> ack kir
15:28:00 <janina> kirkwood: think it's fantastic; but we may have something not covered
15:28:37 <janina> kirkwood: conveying meaning e.g. safety protocols of inserting electrical plug into an outlet in different countries
15:29:12 <janina> kirkwood: good description could be a safety issue
15:29:15 <Lauriat> +1, great example of criticality of accuracy
15:29:35 <SuzanneTaylor> SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver
15:30:13 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
15:30:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/18-silver-minutes.html janina
15:30:30 <Lauriat> q+ to explore that with AI
15:30:47 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
15:30:54 <jeanne> q+ to ask Makoto if he has addressed this
15:31:26 <Chuck> ack Lau
15:31:26 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to explore that with AI
15:31:46 <janina> Lauriat: believe there may be ways to support this
15:32:07 <janina> Lauriat: one image might be what not to do while another is what to do
15:32:20 <janina> Lauriat: user could ask questions to get detail from AI
15:32:44 <janina> Lauriat: provides keyword results along with confidence scores
15:33:32 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
15:33:32 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to ask Makoto if he has addressed this
15:33:35 <janina> Lauriat: so park with people and buildings in the background would likely start with park, but could be queried "are there people?"
15:33:46 <kirkwood> well done Makoto
15:34:13 <janina> jeanne: asking makoto whether has considered where criticality fits?
15:34:19 <Lauriat> Maybe an example of the decision tree that leads to "complex images": https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/complex/
15:34:22 <jeanne> ack je
15:34:42 <janina> Makoto: same image can have different meanings in different contexts
15:35:51 <kirkwood> wether author intent is present or not? is very important
15:36:29 <Lauriat> q+ to note the decision tree example
15:36:29 <janina> jeanne: think challenge that user need in method may be informative; but criticality may need to be normatively specified
15:36:44 <janina> jeanne: or a second outcome
15:37:27 <janina> Lauriat: believe criticality already fits in the tree; see above link
15:37:37 <Chuck> +1 to "it fits"
15:37:49 <janina> Lauriat: documentation would explain how
15:39:22 <janina> kirkwood: would want to be satisfied that author intent is captured in the process
15:40:12 <Lauriat> +1 to that example of maturity of process to reliably achieve the outcome
15:40:47 <SuzanneTaylor> q+
15:40:56 <Lauriat> ack me
15:40:56 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to note the decision tree example
15:40:58 <Lauriat> ack SuzanneTaylor
15:41:12 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: did a similar approach in my homework
15:41:42 <SuzanneTaylor> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YFLroVspFQSEqUgAcI8qPS2CI6EboZcHA43FQNWpt-8/edit?usp=sharing
15:41:46 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: phps the user needs
15:42:00 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: guidelines high level
15:42:11 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: outcomes focussed on type of audio
15:42:27 <kirkwood> just requested access
15:43:02 <SuzanneTaylor> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YFLroVspFQSEqUgAcI8qPS2CI6EboZcHA43FQNWpt-8/edit?usp=sharing
15:43:24 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: then user needs become very specific and include functional needs
15:43:49 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: then the methods become very specific for specific tech
15:44:03 <Chuck> I am denied
15:47:25 <jeanne> q+
15:47:28 <janina> Lauriat: thanks Suzanne for walking through her examples; very helpful
15:47:37 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
15:47:59 <janina> jeanne: allows detailed info to be included as informative
15:49:09 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: should help innovaters by describing goals
15:49:30 <Lauriat> +1, I really like that start-with-an-ideal approach
15:49:36 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: believe we could inspire and direct innovation
15:50:19 <janina> Lauriat: starting from that point provides a structured approach to the research that's needed
15:50:40 <janina> Lauriat: so that takes us away from what html does today which is very important
15:50:50 <SuzanneTaylor> +1
15:50:56 <jeanne> +1
15:50:59 <janina> +1
15:51:25 <Makoto> +1
15:51:30 <janina> jeanne: believe we should present both approaches to AGWG
15:51:45 <janina> jeanne: notes we eventually come back to an outcome
15:51:57 <janina> jeanne: but original task was to get rid of outcomes
15:52:13 <janina> jeanne: so AGWG feedback would be helpful for choosing a WCAG3 direction
15:52:26 <Lauriat> q+
15:52:46 <Rachael> +1
15:53:08 <janina> Lauriat: believe that's a good next step; audio example with decision tree would help with that presentation
15:53:34 <Lauriat> ack me
15:53:49 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
15:53:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/18-silver-minutes.html janina
15:54:29 <janina> jeanne: asks suzanne for example decision tree
15:54:32 <Lauriat> Closest I can find, maybe a good starting point -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/captions/#:~:text=develop%20the%20other.-,Does%20My%20Media%20Need%20Captions%3F,-This%20section%20tells
15:54:55 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: yes; for each user need? or to decide which user need?
15:55:07 <janina> jeanne: probably for which would be appropriate for which method
15:55:30 <janina> jeanne: makoto's allows choosing which method
15:55:54 <Lauriat> Excellent, thank you!
15:56:14 <janina> jeanne: believes we're scheduled to present this on Tuesday 6 December; so have a little time
15:57:33 <janina> jeanne: requests to move
15:58:13 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/18-silver-minutes.html janina