IRC log of coga on 2022-11-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:13:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #coga
14:13:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/17-coga-irc
14:13:13 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:13:16 [trackbot]
Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:13:16 [trackbot]
Date: 17 November 2022
14:16:55 [lisa]
regrets: rashmi, Julie
14:17:13 [lisa]
Scribe: Jennie
14:17:20 [lisa]
agenda?
14:17:28 [lisa]
clear agenda
14:20:10 [lisa]
agenda+ updates and actions https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.1bvszq5s0esc also look at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n_pV-lbgorW2oihIB4EdONOFN0EcRmBAkmUEEPdTAEw/edit#
14:20:24 [lisa]
clear agenda
14:20:26 [Roy]
Roy has joined #coga
14:20:41 [lisa]
agenda+ updates and actions https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.1bvszq5s0esc
14:22:08 [lisa]
agenda+ Subgroups , what we have, what we need, and final changes to metrics from timeline that are still left https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.ndpslgmduag3
14:30:34 [lisa]
agenda+ Training questions. are you award of training resources https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Pe8bUGYQbtM1vEF0rK8AmVPOgzS41VyQ36XPt6QeY5k/edit#
14:31:15 [lisa]
agenda+ Collaboration_Tool_Accessibility short update https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/research-questions/wiki/Collaboration_Tool_Accessibility
14:32:18 [lisa]
agenda+ holidays coming up
14:33:50 [lisa]
agenda+ Pattern requests or updates https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CeqiSy3tVDoeBzCG8LpkyFT1fvugGk86JuT6NvfSiAA/edit#heading=h.1kru9t5f0fpj
14:42:59 [lisa]
regrets: rashmi, Julie, roy
14:57:43 [Jennie]
Jennie has joined #coga
14:58:57 [kirkwood]
kirkwood has joined #COGA
14:59:22 [Rachael]
agenda?
14:59:44 [Jennie]
present+
14:59:49 [Jennie]
scribe: Jennie
14:59:58 [Rachael]
present+
15:00:24 [Becca_Monteleone]
Becca_Monteleone has joined #coga
15:00:58 [abbey]
abbey has joined #coga
15:01:04 [Becca_Monteleone]
present+
15:01:12 [abbey]
present+
15:01:19 [Rain]
Rain has joined #coga
15:01:25 [Rain]
present+
15:01:51 [lisa]
next item
15:02:47 [Jennie]
Lisa: We had a meeting this week (Rashmi, John) and I think we need to set up some more meetings.
15:03:09 [Jennie]
...We discussed what could happen with global personalization for things like triggers, things that disturb you
15:03:18 [Jennie]
...We haven't quite finished yet - the analysis
15:03:38 [Jennie]
Rain: The Structure Subgroup has a meeting today
15:03:44 [Jennie]
...It will be interactive, and fun!
15:03:54 [Jennie]
Lisa: Clear Language is on hold
15:04:16 [lisa]
scribe+ lisa jennie
15:05:04 [kirkwood]
prsent+
15:05:04 [lisa]
jennie: test stratagy are revisiting what they want to produce and the stucture of the document
15:05:28 [Jennie]
Lisa: The research plan and strategy has been moved
15:05:37 [ShawnT]
ShawnT has joined #coga
15:05:37 [Jennie]
...Becca is the lead on getting the papers ready for publication
15:05:54 [Jennie]
Becca: This is something I can't take on until the semester ends
15:06:28 [Jennie]
...I received all the information from Lisa about the issue papers
15:06:49 [Becca_Monteleone]
I will type here!
15:06:52 [Becca_Monteleone]
My apologies!
15:06:53 [Jennie]
*Thank you!
15:07:16 [Becca_Monteleone]
I will review and reach out to Lisa at the beginning of the new year if there is a need for a meeting
15:07:23 [Jennie]
Lisa: David Swallow is preparing a list that then we can work on for outreach in case people want to share content
15:07:46 [Jennie]
...I spoke to the people on the WAI coordination group, but will also bring it up again
15:08:01 [Jennie]
...Kim Patch said the low vision group has done something similar, and will send their list to us
15:08:08 [Jennie]
...Hopefully we can make a united list
15:08:20 [Jennie]
...Often groups interested in one of these groups is also interested in the other
15:08:30 [Jennie]
...Then we can share that working resource
15:08:39 [Jennie]
...Aaron is doing a mini review
15:08:46 [Jennie]
...I have to do a meeting with him
15:08:53 [Jennie]
...We have to revisit the structure of the issue papers
15:09:00 [Jennie]
...I will put forth a proposal for technology support
15:09:08 [lisa]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xXjHPCfWm00iAJqmjdwFq_RQ80vKwwxFAoiEGI3NOlM/edit#gid=1485617472
15:09:08 [Jennie]
...I am reminding everyone that there is a survey to share out
15:09:34 [Jennie]
...Rain - I know we got the things from Roy that said how many people are looking at our research documents
15:09:45 [Jennie]
...Can you share that?
15:09:57 [Jennie]
Rain: I can take an action item to get that
15:10:17 [Jennie]
Jennie: Images subgroup is meeting tomorrow!
15:10:35 [Jennie]
Lisa: Requests from other groups
15:10:41 [Jennie]
...The Collaboration Tool Accessibility
15:10:48 [lisa]
Collaboration_Tool_Accessibility by jennie
15:11:00 [Jennie]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1odt2eWGeJT06S2xdW2H3ymTHOTa0QWkscNSEphNI1og/edit#heading=h.wik9fsv1osxs
15:12:47 [lisa]
q+
15:13:21 [lisa]
ack next
15:13:27 [lisa]
ack next
15:15:00 [Jennie]
Lisa: I think this is a different document
15:15:14 [Jennie]
...And John K remembers something different than this as well
15:15:26 [Jennie]
...We want to do a double check that the comments we made are being included
15:15:36 [Jennie]
...I will check that the list includes the things we have discussed
15:15:50 [Jennie]
...I don't know where this page came from - the wiki
15:16:00 [Jennie]
...This has never been reviewed
15:16:02 [Jennie]
q+
15:16:17 [Jennie]
Lisa: I will have to check
15:16:23 [Jennie]
...so I don't think this will be enough
15:16:41 [Jennie]
...The first one had a lot of meeting time, even though it is old
15:16:49 [Jennie]
...I think there was another google doc
15:16:55 [Jennie]
...I will research and have a look
15:16:58 [Jennie]
q?
15:17:11 [kirkwood]
so action is to compare 1 and 2 and make sure incorporated into ?
15:19:16 [Jennie]
Lisa: I will add the links.
15:20:15 [Rachael]
q+
15:20:44 [Jennie]
ack Jennie
15:20:49 [Jennie]
q?
15:21:20 [Jennie]
Lisa: Some of the information did not get consensus, and this is noted in the notes in some of the documents. I have added this into the document.
15:21:22 [Jennie]
q?
15:21:42 [Jennie]
Rachael: I want to check, or clarify for step #3
15:21:44 [Github]
https://github.com/w3c/coga/pull/3 : Clarified GPII reference
15:21:54 [Jennie]
...Will that be a document that copies over the text?
15:23:08 [Rachael]
q+
15:23:25 [lisa]
ack next
15:23:47 [Jennie]
Rachael: We spoke as a group of the possibility of copying over the tool user requirements into a Google doc, and putting the comments directly on this
15:23:51 [lisa]
rachael: we discussed just coping over the actual doc, and putting the comments into that
15:23:55 [Jennie]
...The research group was happy to take the comments in that form
15:24:01 [lisa]
and apa are happy to do that
15:24:10 [Jennie]
...I recommend that as a way forward. This gives context to the comments being made.
15:24:11 [kirkwood]
the purpose is to review for differences to compare and to aggregate to add to a google doc and put comments into that. I agree with that
15:24:46 [Jennie]
...It does mean putting all the comments COGA makes into the document alongside the information from the original CTAUR document
15:25:18 [Jennie]
Rachael: Yes, a Google doc that contains the information from the CTAUR, plus COGA's comments. The group will accept this.
15:25:25 [Jennie]
John K: That is my understanding as well.
15:25:41 [Jennie]
q?
15:26:54 [Jennie]
Jennie's tasks: 1. Copy over the CTAUR into a Google doc. 2. Copy over current comments from COGA in the Collaboration Tool Accessibility Feedback. 3. Update the next steps document.
15:27:01 [kirkwood]
yes
15:27:22 [Jennie]
https://w3c.github.io/ctaur/#collaboration-tools-and-accessibility
15:27:32 [Jennie]
This is the CTAUR
15:28:12 [Jennie]
Lisa: The rest of us are checking?
15:28:52 [Jennie]
Group task is to review #6 in https://docs.google.com/document/d/1odt2eWGeJT06S2xdW2H3ymTHOTa0QWkscNSEphNI1og/edit# and see if any documents needed to be included in the review are missing
15:28:53 [Github]
https://github.com/w3c/coga/pull/6 : Gh pages
15:30:18 [Jennie]
Some of COGA's feedback is already in https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Feedback_on_CTAUR
15:30:39 [Jennie]
Rachael got that information from https://docs.google.com/document/d/1odt2eWGeJT06S2xdW2H3ymTHOTa0QWkscNSEphNI1og/edit#
15:32:17 [Rachael]
+1
15:33:50 [Jennie]
Lisa: We will need the instructions, the document list, and then we can go through and check.
15:34:48 [Jennie]
John K: It is always useful to have the purpose of the document in one sentence at the top.
15:35:25 [Jennie]
Jennie will have these steps completed and sent to the list prior to the December 1 meeting.
15:35:38 [Jennie]
Lisa: What is happening with the wiki?
15:35:41 [Rachael]
That is fine
15:35:46 [Jennie]
+1
15:36:29 [Jennie]
We will not abandon the wiki totally, because we will update this page with a link to the wiki when we are ready for the APA group to review
15:36:47 [Jennie]
Lisa: I will review that wiki page since people are reviewing it
15:37:01 [Jennie]
John K: Can we write something on it to say it is in process
15:37:33 [Jennie]
Jennie: Maybe we need to update the date?
15:37:46 [Jennie]
Lisa: I think we can keep it vague for now
15:38:37 [Jennie]
Lisa: If I want to make updates to the wiki how shall I proceed?
15:38:52 [Jennie]
...For the wiki, they weren't prepared to hold while we prepared our comments
15:39:04 [Jennie]
...We reached a compromise - that they would link to our wiki page
15:39:13 [Jennie]
...Rachael kindly put together a summary of some key points
15:39:26 [Jennie]
...And she has linked to the W3C tools and processes document
15:39:41 [Jennie]
...We don't have everything from all of our different documents
15:40:02 [Jennie]
...Are people comfortable with me making changes? Do you want to have me post proposed changes to the list?
15:40:15 [Jennie]
...We are making a Google doc that will be available in December or January?
15:40:24 [Jennie]
...The issue is that some people will be looking at it right now?
15:40:48 [Jennie]
...I get the impression that people are saying go ahead and edit the wiki if you like.
15:40:50 [Jennie]
q+
15:41:39 [Jennie]
ack Jennie
15:41:54 [Jennie]
Lisa: There is a meeting happening between a vendor and the accessibility team
15:42:08 [Jennie]
...They want to use this to show what the issues are
15:42:22 [Jennie]
...If they do, will they get the feedback that we need?
15:42:46 [Jennie]
...It could be a sentence that says many products do not address the concerns raised in Making Content Usable
15:42:53 [Jennie]
...So there is an overview
15:43:00 [Jennie]
...Of the issues people are having
15:43:12 [Jennie]
...And please look at Making Content Usable
15:43:26 [Jennie]
...Then, if they actually look at it, they will get more than just individual comments that got added to Github
15:43:30 [Jennie]
+1
15:43:58 [kirkwood]
+1
15:44:01 [Rain]
+1
15:44:01 [abbey]
+1
15:44:02 [Jennie]
John K: That makes sense
15:44:17 [Jennie]
Lisa: OK, I will just put a summary at the top
15:44:48 [Jennie]
...This will be easy for people to check.
15:45:02 [Jennie]
...I will send it to the list
15:45:09 [Jennie]
John K: The purpose is to get consensus and review this
15:46:03 [Jennie]
Lisa: OK, I and Jennie both have actions to do
15:46:12 [Jennie]
...I have another action on verifiable credentials
15:46:43 [Jennie]
...In general, I am asking APA in January to have a meeting with the research questions group
15:46:58 [Jennie]
...We will check through the methodology a bit to see if it can better include cognitive from the beginning
15:47:39 [Jennie]
...This could impact their research strategies
15:47:53 [Github]
Github has joined #coga
15:48:25 [Jennie]
Lisa: EO has asked us to review scripts
15:48:32 [Jennie]
John K: I would like to volunteer
15:48:37 [Jennie]
Lisa: Their message is urgent
15:48:39 [Jennie]
John K: Yes
15:48:44 [Jennie]
...We have done some review
15:49:10 [Jennie]
Lisa: The script can't be changed, but things can be cut.
15:49:19 [Jennie]
...I think it is important, and needs to be done over the weekend.
15:49:27 [Jennie]
...Julie is not here, so I will find the emails, forward it
15:49:32 [Jennie]
...Was there something on the list?
15:49:50 [Jennie]
...I don't see anything new
15:50:03 [Jennie]
...We will ask them to send it
15:50:12 [Jennie]
...If anyone can review this weekend that would be great
15:50:30 [lisa]
next item
15:50:40 [lisa]
close item 2
15:50:54 [lisa]
next item
15:51:22 [Jennie]
Lisa: I am going to make short videos, conversations
15:51:25 [Jennie]
...We have part of it
15:51:34 [Jennie]
...Training resources for Making Content Usable
15:51:46 [Mike5Matrix]
Mike5Matrix has joined #coga
15:51:46 [Jennie]
...EO's courses don't have a section on language, for example
15:52:00 [Jennie]
...We could see what we have, and what is missing
15:52:11 [Jennie]
...Then we can see what is missing
15:52:40 [Jennie]
...There are presentations we have made
15:52:44 [Jennie]
...We can see what is missing
15:52:48 [Jennie]
...We may find we have a cause
15:53:14 [Jennie]
...If you have information to share that would be helpful
15:53:22 [lisa]
web accessibility traing module
15:53:25 [Jennie]
John K: I know some companies have cognitive accessibility training modules
15:53:35 [Jennie]
...Some are current W3C members
15:53:50 [Jennie]
Lisa: Maybe we should also have sections for each topic on testing
15:54:10 [Jennie]
...I am adding to the list of things you can tag it as
15:54:20 [Jennie]
...I will change media to type
15:54:22 [Jennie]
...Add testing
15:54:29 [Jennie]
...People can add information in
15:54:37 [Jennie]
...If it is a video
15:54:56 [Jennie]
...Does the group agree that this is needed?
15:55:06 [Rain]
q+
15:55:12 [Jennie]
John K: Would this be - what is the end product?
15:55:22 [Jennie]
...Is it putting it online as a training resource material?
15:55:28 [Jennie]
...I think it is something people look for
15:55:50 [Jennie]
...I think it gives legitimacy in the cognitive space
15:56:08 [Jennie]
...It is also a big thing when there are proprietary things for doing it
15:56:18 [Jennie]
...Some is behind a paywall
15:56:26 [Jennie]
Lisa: I was thinking open things that people can link to
15:56:27 [Jennie]
q?
15:56:41 [Jennie]
Lisa: a blog post at a vendor would be good
15:56:53 [Jennie]
...From this conversation I am seeing the media and the type
15:56:59 [Jennie]
...A testing tool, or a webpage
15:57:15 [Jennie]
...It can be proprietary but as long as everyone can use it
15:57:20 [Jennie]
...And we need a short summary of what it is
15:57:28 [Jennie]
...So people can see if they want to implement it
15:57:36 [Jennie]
...It can be used by a big team
15:57:43 [Jennie]
...I think it would be really helpful
15:58:10 [Jennie]
Rain: I think that this would be incredibly useful, but I also think that it is a high risk thing for us to put together
15:58:24 [Jennie]
...We have so many other things that we need to put a lot of time and thought into
15:58:33 [Jennie]
...It could end up including things that are suspect
15:58:47 [Jennie]
...We could put something there that is not under a paywall, then goes under a paywall
15:58:56 [Jennie]
...It could look like we are endorsing someone
15:59:05 [Jennie]
...Like if we link to the materials of a company
15:59:13 [Jennie]
Lisa: We can say this isn't an endorsement
15:59:23 [Jennie]
...I think people need something
15:59:34 [Jennie]
John K: I fully agree with Rain, however, it would be a fantastic resource
15:59:40 [abbey]
q
15:59:43 [Jennie]
...We have to make it a very long list
15:59:49 [Jennie]
q+ abbey
15:59:51 [Rain]
ack Rain
16:00:24 [Jennie]
Lisa: We could add a column to say if something is for a fee
16:00:34 [Jennie]
...If we don't like something then we just don't include it
16:00:41 [Jennie]
John K: There are cognitive accessibility overlays
16:00:43 [Jennie]
q?
16:00:54 [Jennie]
Lisa: we can put comments
16:00:56 [Jennie]
John K: Sure
16:00:58 [Jennie]
q?
16:01:21 [Becca_Monteleone]
My apologies, but I need to head to another meeting!
16:01:22 [Jennie]
Abbey: You said that there is another group that has something similar to this?
16:01:29 [Jennie]
Lisa: They have it for general accessibility
16:01:37 [Jennie]
...EO - the outreach and education group
16:01:41 [Jennie]
...They have curriculum
16:01:49 [lisa]
ack next
16:01:50 [Jennie]
...And they link to existing other courses and curriculum
16:02:05 [Jennie]
...I didn't see something that deals with our issues
16:02:12 [Jennie]
...It is more AG focused curriculum
16:02:38 [Jennie]
Abbey: we are trying to curate a list of courses that focus on cognitive to be added to this list?
16:02:44 [ShawnT]
present+
16:02:51 [Jennie]
Lisa: We can suggest that they get added, and put them on our wiki once we collect them
16:03:05 [Jennie]
...And gives people a starting position for Making Content Usable
16:03:10 [Jennie]
q=
16:03:13 [Jennie]
q+
16:03:16 [abbey]
is this the list? https://www.w3.org/WAI/courses/list/
16:04:02 [lisa]
RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:04:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/17-coga-minutes.html lisa
16:12:49 [lisa]
topic: stucture subgroup
16:13:12 [lisa]
rain: took everything into mock ups
16:14:26 [lisa]
quick ref style
16:14:37 [ShawnT]
Link to [How to Meet WCAG (Quickref Reference)](https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/quickref/)
16:15:42 [lisa]
each theme has summary, user needs and the patterns
16:16:14 [lisa]
apendix is called resourses :)
16:17:06 [lisa]
minimize and full screens icons at the top
16:17:29 [lisa]
clear visual indicators
16:17:38 [lisa]
(using figma)
16:18:04 [lisa]
q+
16:18:12 [lisa]
ack next
16:18:16 [lisa]
John love it
16:19:15 [lisa]
be careful with tenses etc
16:19:32 [ShawnT]
I like it too
16:19:44 [ShawnT]
+q to ask about the full screen
16:19:53 [lisa]
sujected stucture:https://docs.google.com/document/d/13NYNH8sXypavDt6C6pdbHNK3-hIRpULIoYZ2kJ8IWQ4/edit#heading=h.e3mndy9u7b4q
16:20:16 [lisa]
persistent when u scrol etc
16:20:23 [lisa]
ack next
16:20:28 [ShawnT]
scribe+
16:20:40 [ShawnT]
Lisa: two comments
16:21:04 [ShawnT]
... we have been told we can't change the specification, the w3c has their own style
16:21:36 [ShawnT]
... we've had feedback saying we are clear enough we should be able to change our respect
16:22:06 [ShawnT]
... there's a limit over what we can change
16:22:15 [ShawnT]
... we should have a meeting with Micheal
16:22:46 [ShawnT]
.... another thing, we could have another version, the left hand is a style sheet
16:23:15 [ShawnT]
... we could have a version with our own style, and have an official version with the W3C style sheet
16:23:22 [ShawnT]
+1 on having two different looks
16:24:21 [ShawnT]
... same source document just different looks, just a suggestion
16:24:32 [kirkwood]
q+
16:24:35 [lisa]
sujected stucture:https://docs.google.com/document/d/13NYNH8sXypavDt6C6pdbHNK3-hIRpULIoYZ2kJ8IWQ4/edit#heading=h.e3mndy9u7b4q
16:26:02 [ShawnT]
... would someone be able to find the pattern, besides Rain or Lisa, who created the structure?
16:27:54 [ShawnT]
... broke it down into types of designs
16:27:56 [lisa]
site stucture, insted of site design
16:28:02 [lisa]
(john)
16:28:44 [lisa]
design for mobile first
16:28:54 [lisa]
+1
16:33:09 [ShawnT]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/quickref/
16:35:30 [lisa]
kiki will be doing some of these
16:35:30 [lisa]
ack next
16:35:30 [lisa]
q?
16:35:31 [Zakim]
ShawnT, you wanted to ask about the full screen
16:35:48 [lisa_]
lisa_ has joined #coga
16:36:40 [lisa_]
RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:36:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/17-coga-minutes.html lisa_
16:36:57 [lisa_]
shawn: control f is very important
16:37:12 [lisa_]
so have it all on one page, open by defualt?
16:38:23 [lisa_]
could be a suggested pattern! open by defualt