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15:59:21 <tzviya> zakim, start meeting
15:59:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:59:22 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:59:27 <tzviya> Date: 2022-11-11
15:59:34 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
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16:00:19 <liisamk> present+
16:00:35 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
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16:01:41 <wendyreid> present+
16:01:56 <ivan> present+
16:02:10 <tzviya> present+
16:02:12 <GeorgeK> present+
16:02:48 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:02:48 <Ralph> present+
16:02:58 <wendyreid> tzviya: Continuing the conversation about the salon
16:03:05 <wendyreid> ... short agenda for today
16:03:23 <wendyreid> ... didn't include, but a round table about the going-ons of the groups
16:03:31 <wendyreid> ... any thoughts on the W3C changes
16:03:48 <wendyreid> ... last time we met, we talked about a joint meeting between the BG and CG
16:04:01 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2022/10/28-pbgsc-minutes.html previous 28-Oct
16:04:02 <wendyreid> ... let Liisa and Wolfgang talk about where that is at
16:04:12 <wendyreid> ... I do have a call to action drafted for that
16:04:32 <wendyreid> liisamk: No big updates, we did get the counterfeit taskforce set up
16:04:36 <wendyreid> ... doodle poll was sent out
16:04:41 <wendyreid> ... getting it off the ground
16:05:03 <wendyreid> wolfgang: Liisa has presented the issue to the BG and CG
16:05:15 <wendyreid> ... both groups are informed, set that up as quickly as possible
16:05:21 <AvneeshSingh> is it counterfit TF or anti-conterfitting TF?
16:05:28 <wendyreid> ... be optimistic
16:06:17 <wendyreid> tzviya: How many people have volunteered?
16:06:25 <wendyreid> liisamk: 2-3 people beyond the usual suspects
16:06:30 <wendyreid> tzviya: Huge!
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16:06:38 <wendyreid> liisamk: Some interest from amazon
16:06:40 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2022Nov/0000.html PBG/PCG Counterfeit TF
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16:07:03 <wendyreid> tzviya: We need buy-in from them, we need them
16:07:15 <dauwhe> present+
16:07:20 <wendyreid> liisamk: Is Etsy a W3C member?
16:07:46 <wendyreid> Ralph: They are not
16:08:15 <wendyreid> ... no participants that we know of, potentially some people in CGs
16:08:37 <wendyreid> ivan: Who are they?
16:09:10 <wendyreid> liisamk: Platform for selling crafts, but now its expanded to many other products, like furniture and such, lots of counterfeit goods
16:09:23 <wendyreid> tzviya: They are a reseller, they don't authenticate products
16:09:25 <tzviya> https://www.etsy.com/
16:09:25 <wendyreid> q+
16:09:47 <wendyreid> ... Ivan probably is not looking for custom earrings or scarves
16:09:55 <wendyreid> liisamk: Great supplier of gifts
16:10:15 <wendyreid> tzviya: Goes beyond verification/authentication of content
16:10:20 <wendyreid> ... goes into VC world
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16:10:33 <wendyreid> ... verifying the supplier has the right to sell something
16:10:50 <Ralph> present+ BillK
16:10:50 <wendyreid> ivan: I was wondering if the group should connect with the VG WG
16:10:55 <wendyreid> s/VG/VC
16:11:07 <tzviya> q?
16:11:12 <tzviya> ack we
16:11:16 <wendyreid> tzviya: There are probably lighter weight solutions, but should be aware
16:11:28 <Ralph> scribe+
16:11:56 <Ralph> Wendy: it would be great to have a contact in Etsy
16:12:13 <Ralph> ... a first conversation of the TF could be "how big a scope do we want?"
16:12:17 <Ralph> ... author verification?
16:12:22 <Ralph> ... supplier verification?
16:12:26 <Ralph> ... ...
16:12:30 <Ralph> ... how much do we want to do?
16:12:44 <wendyreid> tzviya: I would limit the scope to publishing, and even "I published this book and I don't want it copied"
16:12:53 <Ralph> scribe-
16:12:56 <wendyreid> ... W3C had a CG for a while about the credible web
16:13:05 <wendyreid> ... credibility of authors, but that is a whole other world
16:13:24 <wendyreid> ... credibility claims are complex
16:13:36 <wendyreid> ivan: If we try to get amazon, should we also get Alibaba?
16:13:46 <wendyreid> ... they likely also sell ebooks, face similar issues
16:14:14 <wendyreid> tzviya: I haven't talked with them about this in a long time, but Zheng and I had a discussion with them a while ago about EPUB, but their approach to ebooks is very different
16:14:23 <wendyreid> ... and of course, Kobo, Apple, Google, etc
16:14:40 <wendyreid> ... miniapps as well
16:14:47 <wendyreid> ... Zheng is the person to talk to
16:15:01 <wendyreid> ... to the original topic, any other takeaways from the salon
16:15:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:15:19 <wendyreid> ... draft email, the anti-counterfeit TF, anything else
16:15:29 <wendyreid> ... writing use cases is not exciting
16:15:32 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:15:36 <GeorgeK> q+
16:15:41 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: Nebulous topic, issue of addressability
16:15:43 <wendyreid> q+
16:15:44 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/community/credibility/ Credible Web Community Group
16:15:54 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:15:55 <Ralph> scribe+
16:16:12 <Ralph> Wendy: the Locator TF specifically chose not to take up addressibility
16:16:35 <Ralph> ... the TF is trying to do [locators] in EPUB
16:16:50 <Ralph> ... how to fix page numbering in an automated fashion across platforms
16:17:00 <Ralph> ... we need implementations of our test algorithm
16:17:07 <tzviya> ack GeorgeK
16:17:30 <wendyreid> GeorgeK: We've got Matt and co. maintaining the DAISY KB, but best practices in general on how to do things
16:17:39 <wendyreid> ... would be benefited by an organized approach
16:17:49 <wendyreid> ... maintain something like the KB in the general domain
16:18:34 <wendyreid> tzviya: We haven't heard from Dan in a while about the mozilla docs, that project is more important
16:18:45 <wendyreid> ... there is a challenge in maintaining best practices
16:18:47 <ivan> q?
16:18:50 <wendyreid> ... EPUB vs reading systems
16:19:10 <wendyreid> ... and reading system best practices, need to be written by RSs
16:19:15 <wendyreid> ivan: Dan is busy
16:19:30 <wendyreid> tzviya: I'll try to reach out
16:19:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:20:03 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:20:13 <wendyreid> ... Wendy dropped a link to APLN - accessible publishing learning network, created by Laura Brady and eBOUND Canada
16:20:44 <wendyreid> q+
16:22:03 <tzviya> ack we
16:22:24 <tzviya> APLN https://apln.ca/
16:22:55 <Ralph> scribe+
16:23:28 <Ralph> Wendy: the CG considered "what can we do about OPF?" and decided that we can't do anything because we don't want to break backwards compatibility
16:23:36 <Ralph> ... there are things people want in digital publications
16:23:47 <tzviya> q+ to talk about addressability
16:23:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:23:55 <Ralph> ... we keep trying to do that in EPUB but we run into blocks due to backward compatibility
16:23:59 <wolfgang> +1 to Wendy
16:24:07 <Ralph> ... and developers non-willingness to make changes
16:24:19 <Ralph> ... there's unwillingness and lack of business cases
16:24:56 <Ralph> ... it seems likely that the publishing industry will shortly be even more tightened in regards to technology changes
16:25:22 <Ralph> ... if we can't do something in EPUB. we have to have honest conversations about what we want and how we're going to do it
16:25:41 <liisamk> q+
16:25:46 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:25:48 <Ralph> ... if we decide we need to write something new we have to acknowledge that this will take several years and there may not be energy to do that soon
16:25:53 <wendyreid> tzviya: Honest assessment of where we are
16:26:13 <wendyreid> ... part of the reason I haven't sent this note is that making incremental tweaks is not going to get us where we want
16:26:27 <wendyreid> ... much of what we want is out there, it's just not in publishing space
16:26:36 <wendyreid> ... we haven't figured out how to explain it in a publishing context
16:26:44 <wendyreid> ... maybe the white paper is something we work on
16:26:59 <wendyreid> ... how do we make this community work, and what can we do to maintain this community
16:26:59 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:27:02 <tzviya> ack me
16:27:02 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about addressability
16:27:04 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:27:22 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: I want to make the point that its important to frame this in addition to EPUB
16:27:30 <wendyreid> ... we can't change it because it's embedded
16:27:41 <wendyreid> ... but other sectors, it's not, but we could address the gaps in other sectors
16:27:59 <wolfgang> don't we need an additional, web-based format for some area's of publishing?
16:28:05 <tzviya> ack next
16:28:07 <wendyreid> ... higher ed is a both/and case, they are beyond EPUB but also producing EPUB
16:28:23 <wolfgang> s/area's/areas/
16:28:28 <wendyreid> liisamk: What Daihei and I have been seeing in the BG is that many people's focus is on the a11y stuff done for their backlist
16:28:34 <wendyreid> ... get to 2025 without fines
16:28:52 <wendyreid> ... people are stuck because they don't want to take responsibility for what to do
16:29:17 <wendyreid> ... chicken and egg thing, without the implementation fines, without the tooling, not sure how to get to that kind of accessiblity
16:29:32 <wendyreid> ... big focus on connecting people with how to think about it, how to approach it
16:29:40 <wendyreid> ... big focus on tooling, people working on it
16:29:43 <GeorgeK> q+
16:29:53 <wendyreid> ... work to get to accessible epubs is to embed them further
16:30:16 <wendyreid> ... old books have low-res images, and reconvert the book, I don't want to think about that now
16:30:28 <wendyreid> ... don't want to do that without a clear path to the future
16:30:30 <wendyreid> q+
16:30:36 <tzviya> q+ to speak about tooling
16:30:39 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
16:33:01 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:34:37 <Ralph> Wendy: I understand the struggle about tooling.  I don't know that we can do anything without having tooling people in the group
16:34:47 <Ralph> ... we have no influence on them
16:35:32 <Ralph> ... the reality is that all we can do as a group that produces standards is to write the best standards we can so that someone who is a tool vendor knows what is expected
16:35:44 <Ralph> ... "here is the structure, and here's what I can do for you as a publishing house"
16:36:01 <tzviya> ack me
16:36:01 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to speak about tooling
16:36:05 <Ralph> ... all we can do is write good standards and communicate as best we can
16:36:25 <wendyreid> tzviya: This isn't just about ebooks, when I do training about accessibility, the first question is "how do we automated this"
16:36:35 <wendyreid> ... there's lots of work within W3C to improve this
16:36:41 <wendyreid> ... this is not a publishing problem
16:36:46 <ivan> q+
16:36:54 <wendyreid> ... we need to work with the rest of the W3C on this
16:37:21 <wendyreid> ... ATAG and other standards are being absorbed into WCAG, nothing will be fully automated but there will be improvement
16:37:32 <wendyreid> ... this is where we can encourage our colleagues more
16:37:35 <wendyreid> q+
16:37:52 <tzviya> ack ge
16:37:54 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: ACT task force, Romain participates
16:38:42 <wendyreid> GeorgeK: We've been given a grant to do work to introduce a tool for converting to epub3 in the daisy pipeline, now for users in general
16:38:55 <wendyreid> ... a vehicle for publishers to move their content from EPUB2 to EPUB3
16:39:00 <wendyreid> ... surely can be improved
16:39:08 <wendyreid> ... improve the quality of the upgrades
16:39:12 <wendyreid> ... tooling option for people
16:39:17 <wendyreid> ... robust and simple
16:40:07 <wendyreid> ... we're making the SMART tool, good for training, opening it up to be free to use, seeking sponsors for support for ACE, the KB
16:40:13 <tzviya> q+ to talk about next steps and recent changes
16:40:19 <wendyreid> ... throw DAISY pipeline into the tool mix
16:40:39 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: These can be very useful
16:40:54 <wendyreid> ... mainly designed for non-profit world, but we'll need to see how publishing picks it up
16:41:18 <wendyreid> ... it's up to the publishers, if they like it, we're happy
16:41:20 <tzviya> ack iv
16:41:50 <wendyreid> ivan: I want to come back to AvneeshSingh's initial point, at this point, I could not create a viable charter for a WG for publishing
16:42:07 <wendyreid> ... none of the topics we have are at a level to be chartered
16:42:15 <wendyreid> ... we need to find the areas to form incubation
16:42:20 <wendyreid> ... which may end in a charter
16:42:27 <wendyreid> ... but it's 1-2 years away
16:42:43 <wendyreid> ... no chance to have a charter by the end of the EPUB WG
16:43:09 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: I agree, we need to consider strategy
16:43:37 <wendyreid> ivan: If we create a charter like the CSS charter, we can experiment, but it's completely unrealistic
16:43:46 <wendyreid> ... they are the exception, not the rule
16:44:26 <tzviya> ack we
16:44:26 <wendyreid> ... some of the TF tasks could be promising, but we can't create a whiteboard working group
16:44:53 <Ralph> Wendy: we need to have more talks with the industry
16:45:08 <Ralph> ... maybe pair with DAISY and have webinars on the future of digital publishing
16:45:17 <Ralph> ... they are doing amazing work
16:45:24 <Ralph> ... and primarily at no cost
16:45:40 <Ralph> ... publishing houses are going to start taking their work and profiting from it
16:46:09 <Ralph> ... moving to EPUB did not serve as much as it could have; publishing companies need to start thinking of themselves as needing to build software too
16:46:29 <Ralph> ... publishing companies have to invest in building the technology as well
16:46:50 <liisamk> q+
16:46:56 <Ralph> ... another piece we need to talk more about is the environmental impact of publishing on paper
16:47:07 <Ralph> ... we need to start thinking about sustainability
16:47:35 <Ralph> ... we could also start helping other WG charters that could help us
16:48:00 <Ralph> ... e.g. there's CG work on text locators that could be useful to us
16:48:12 <Ralph> ... that's what we want; we only need to fix it for books
16:48:19 <Ralph> ... why can't we help them with that?
16:48:27 <Ralph> ... we need to start thinking outside of ourselves
16:48:31 <tzviya> ack tzviya
16:48:31 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about next steps and recent changes
16:48:37 <Ralph> ... we can help other work quite a bit
16:48:58 <wendyreid> tzviya: What Wendy just described, expanding scope to think like technology companies, I do that at Wiley, including sustainability
16:49:19 <wendyreid> ... our industry is focusing on this, I also consider digital sustainability
16:49:27 <wendyreid> ... there's groups within W3C looking at this
16:49:38 <wendyreid> ... changes and updates within W3C
16:49:38 <liisamk> q-
16:50:01 <wendyreid> ... shift to the legal entity is happening in a few weeks, Jeff is leaving, Ralph is interim CEO, Judy Brewer is leaving WAI
16:50:53 <wendyreid> Ralph: W3C: the next generation
16:51:25 <wendyreid> ... the board of the new legal entity, has now chosen it's three officers, treasurer, secretary, interim president
16:51:34 <wendyreid> ... and interim CEO
16:51:43 <wendyreid> ... president/CEO is one job and is me
16:51:51 <tzviya> Jeff's email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2022OctDec/0117.html
16:51:52 <wendyreid> ... until we find someone
16:52:04 <wendyreid> ... all this as of december 31st
16:52:24 <wendyreid> ... we're doing everything necessary to ensure the work of the groups and committees can continue transparently
16:52:31 <wendyreid> ... should not impact the actual work we do
16:52:55 <wendyreid> ... those of you who work with accounting to do the fees, will see a change to W3C inc. in invoices
16:57:16 <Ralph> s/accounting to do/your procurement departments to pay membership/
16:57:34 <wendyreid> tzviya: Lots of good feedback from the salon, but we need to continue the work and support the community
16:58:15 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
16:58:24 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/11-pbgsc-minutes.html tzviya
16:59:31 <Ralph> present+ Avneesh
17:00:00 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:00:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, liisamk, wolfgang, wendyreid, ivan, tzviya, GeorgeK, Ralph, dauwhe, BillK
17:00:02 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:00:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/11-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:00:05 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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17:00:25 <Ralph> scribe: Wendy
17:00:35 <Ralph> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:00:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/11-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
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