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16:55:37 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:55:38 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
16:55:50 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star WG kick-off meeting
16:56:13 <pchampin> present+
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16:58:13 <ora> present+
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17:00:05 <gkellogg> present+
17:00:56 <AndyS> present+
17:01:08 <rubensworks> present+
17:01:32 <gtw> present+
17:01:35 <Dominik_T> present+
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17:04:35 <ktk> present+
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17:05:09 <pchampin> zakim, pick a scribe
17:05:09 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ktk
17:06:09 <gkellogg> https://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html
17:06:22 <AZ> Zakim, AZ is Antoine Zimmermann
17:06:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'AZ is Antoine Zimmermann', AZ
17:06:25 <gkellogg> https://www.w3.org/wiki/IRC
17:06:26 <pchampin> chair: ora
17:06:32 <pchampin> scribe: pchampin
17:06:33 <pchampin_> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/adaee418-2bca-4a20-a92d-b98dd59879c7
17:06:33 <pchampin_> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/11/17-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:06:34 <pchampin_> topic: Introductions
17:06:47 <pchampin> ora: Ora Lassila, Amazon Neptune DB team
17:07:07 <pchampin> ... I was there in 1996, co-author of the original RDF spec
17:07:38 <pchampin> pchampin: W3C fellow, staff contact of the WG
17:07:56 <pchampin> ktk: CEO of Zazuko, co-chair of the WG
17:08:27 <pchampin> AndyS: Apache Software Foundation, been working on RDF and SPARQL for years
17:08:44 <pchampin> gkellogg: perma-invited expert in RDF related WGs (JSON-LD, RDFa...)
17:08:57 <pchampin> ... have implemented the RDF stack in Ruby
17:09:37 <pchampin> Souri: Oracle, working on graph data; been involved in previous groups (SPARQL), editor of R2RML
17:10:31 <pchampin> AZ: associate prof. in École des Mines de St Étienne; discovered RDF in 2004 and have worked on it ever sinced
17:10:36 <pchampin> ... was active in the OWL2 WG
17:11:01 <pchampin> EFranconi: prof at university of Bolsano; research in knowledge representation, description logic
17:11:22 <AZ> AZ: was also active in RDF 1.1 WG
17:11:23 <pchampin> ... have contributed to RDB2RDF
17:11:39 <pchampin> ... interested in KR and reification
17:12:03 <dchaves> dchaves has joined #rdf-star
17:12:36 <pchampin> dchaves: post-doc researcher in @@ Belgium and in Madrid; chair of the CG on Knowledge Graph construction
17:13:29 <pchampin> Dominik_T: work at university; work with RDF and Property Graphs, involved in the LDBC Property Graph Schema WG
17:13:39 <pchampin> ... that's why I'm interested in RDF-star
17:13:55 <pchampin> Dominik_T: post-doc at TU Dresden, interested in Notation 3 logic, and how it relates to RDF-star
17:14:40 <pchampin> gtw: Amazon, and also interested through open-source projects in which I'm involved
17:15:01 <pchampin> olaf: senior ass. prof. in Lkinöping university (Sweden) and Amazon scholar with Ora and Greg
17:15:21 <pchampin> ... author of the original RDF* proposal; have worked in the PROV WG
17:15:50 <pchampin> rubensworks: Gent University, work on JS implementations of RDF / SPARQL
17:15:56 <pchampin> ... interested in implementation and query processing
17:16:21 <pchampin> remiceres: Wimmics steam at Inria; work on Corese
17:16:32 <pchampin> ... will implement RDF-star in the future version of Corese
17:16:57 <pchampin> TallTed: Openlink software; we make Virtuoso and other RDF/LD tools
17:17:42 <pchampin> Ora: it is great to have so much expertise about RDF and co. in this group
17:18:12 <TallTed> s/Openlink software/OpenLink Software/
17:18:31 <pchampin> Topic: What we expect from that group
17:18:47 <pchampin> ora: in the Neptune team, we have a model called 1Graph, unifying RDF and PG
17:19:08 <pchampin> ... Neptune gives users the choice between RDF and PG, which people find confusing
17:19:24 <pchampin> ... they don't know what to chose, and that hinders adoption of graph technologies
17:19:32 <pchampin> ... RDF-star is seen as an important part of this work
17:19:56 <pchampin> ... We are also very interested in supporting RDF-star
17:20:26 <TallTed> q?
17:20:28 <AndyS> q+
17:20:35 <AZ> q+
17:20:46 <TallTed> q+ to demonstrate reminder feature
17:20:51 <TallTed> q
17:20:55 <TallTed> q-
17:20:56 <ora> q+
17:21:01 <pchampin> EFranconi: I'm here to listen to what are the real requirements for RDF-star
17:21:02 <Doerthe> @pchampin you put Dominik's name on my data in the protocol (just for the record, I am sure that can be fixed afterwards :) )
17:21:07 <ktk> q+
17:21:10 <Souri> q+
17:21:11 <rubensworks> q+ RDFa
17:21:25 <pchampin> ... Want to check that the choices scale up to other languages (OWL, etc)
17:21:52 <rubensworks> q+ to discuss RDFa
17:22:15 <pchampin> ... [link to relation databases]
17:22:42 <TallTed> s/Dominik_T: post-doc/Doerthe: post-doc/
17:22:42 <pchampin> s/relation databases/relational databases and conceptual modeling/
17:22:55 <ora> q?
17:23:18 <pchampin> AndyS: my interest comes from the reification side of things
17:23:28 <Dominik_T> q+
17:23:29 <TallTed> q- RDFa
17:23:31 <pchampin> ... reification has not been widely accepted, for various reasons
17:23:58 <pchampin> ... we need to address these issues
17:24:29 <ora> ack andys
17:24:32 <ora> ack az
17:24:46 <pchampin> ... I think it is useful to have the ability to talk about triples for provenance and such -- one of the use-cases of RDF-star
17:25:02 <pchampin> AZ: like Enrico, my interest is to see how RDF-star semantics interact with OWL and RDFS semantics
17:25:38 <ora> ack ora
17:25:39 <pchampin> ... also interested in contextual reasoning, where RDF-star could be a candidate
17:26:05 <pchampin> ora: to react to what Enrico said; I always considered reification as one of the most misunderstood parts of RDF
17:26:25 <pchampin> ... Early, I pointed out that reification was going to lead us in some sort of modal logic,
17:26:47 <pchampin> ... as soon as I did, nobody wanted to touch reification. That's why reification ended up without any formal semantics.
17:27:13 <ora> q?
17:27:21 <ora> ack ktk
17:27:30 <pchampin> ... An alternative to having a formal semantics is what I call "representation by convention".
17:27:48 <pchampin> ktk: came to RDF as an engineer because it solved problems I had.
17:28:02 <pchampin> ... often talk to people that I need to convince that RDF is useful.
17:28:22 <pchampin> s/useful/useful compared to PGs/
17:28:42 <pchampin> ... It would be good if RDF-star could stop those two communities fighting.
17:29:01 <pchampin> ... RDF-star could also help in the domain of data governance.
17:29:16 <ora> ack souri
17:29:41 <pchampin> Souri: I implement the standards developed at W3C. I am also involved in PGs.
17:30:09 <pchampin> ... Like Neptune we support both RDF and PGs. We want interoperability to be as seamless as can be.
17:30:39 <pchampin> ... I see two needs: 1) being able to say something about a triple
17:31:07 <pchampin> ... 2) being able to have multiple occurrences of an edge
17:31:24 <pchampin> ... e.g. me working for a company during two different periods in time
17:31:55 <pchampin> ... RDF-star does not support the 2nd point.
17:32:32 <pchampin> ... Implementing standards take time, so the standard should not go halfway.
17:33:11 <pchampin> ... I suggest that RDF-star not only supports "quoted triples" but also "named triples".
17:33:24 <pchampin> Naming is not always necessary, but would be an option.
17:33:31 <pchampin> s/Naming/... Naming/
17:33:37 <AndyS> q+
17:33:47 <ora> ack rubensworks
17:33:47 <Zakim> rubensworks, you wanted to discuss RDFa
17:33:54 <rubensworks> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/issues/19
17:33:59 <pchampin> rubensworks: would like to discuss the issue of RDFa
17:34:11 <gkellogg> q+ to ask if named graphs might be a surrogate for named triples.
17:34:44 <pchampin> ... Sarven suggested some time ago to also extend RDFa for it to support RDF-star
17:35:11 <ora> ack dominik_t
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17:35:45 <ora> ack andys
17:35:56 <pchampin> Dominik_T: interested in serializations. RDF has standard serializations, but PGs don't.
17:36:06 <pchampin> ... Could RDF-star be used to provide PGs with a standard serialization.
17:36:28 <ora> q?
17:37:17 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:37:17 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to ask if named graphs might be a surrogate for named triples.
17:37:17 <pchampin> AndyS: glad that we get to update the specs, that need to evolve (a number of errata)
17:37:44 <pchampin> gkellogg: to respond to Souri's request for considering of "named triples"
17:38:17 <pchampin> ... seems related to the unfinished story of named graphs, that do not have a formal semantics
17:38:43 <pchampin> ... named graphs containing triples can be considered to be different things, if we figure out their semantics
17:38:53 <Souri> q+
17:39:11 <pchampin> ... This is done in practice; JSON-LD makes it possible to create anonymous named graphs, and VC uses this to talk about the graph.
17:39:39 <ora> q+
17:39:43 <csarven> Issue ( Include RDFa Core 1.2 as a normative specification to deliver): https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/issues/19
17:39:45 <pchampin> ... About RDFa, there is a large technical dept on RDFa (no support for named graphs).
17:39:52 <ora> ack souri
17:40:29 <pchampin> Souri: I agree that we have some issues with named graphs. What do we do with inferences across named graphs?
17:41:22 <pchampin> ... But naming graphs is different from naming triples. A named graphs is a *collection* of triples.
17:42:08 <pchampin> ... The "singleton graph" idea was suggested earlier, but customers are already using named graphs for their own purposes.
17:42:19 <pchampin> ... This would require them to change their practice.
17:42:45 <TallTed> q?
17:42:49 <TallTed> q+
17:42:50 <rubensworks> q+ to discuss SPARQL 1.2 CG
17:42:55 <ora> ack ora
17:43:47 <pchampin> ora: we see customers using named graphs as a replacement for reification; I'm not terribly happy with that.
17:44:09 <pchampin> ... Souri: you have a paper about the notion of "named triples", right?
17:44:32 <ora> q?
17:44:33 <pchampin> Souri: not a formal paper, but a two pages informal paper. I also can present slides.
17:44:40 <ora> ack tallted
17:45:19 <pchampin> TallTed: in my experience, people that want to talk about 1 triple find out that they actually want to talk about a set of 1 or several triples
17:45:50 <ora> q+
17:45:58 <pchampin> ... going along with that, we come to the notion of "collection graphs" or "graphs or graphs"
17:46:14 <ora> ack rubensworks
17:46:14 <Zakim> rubensworks, you wanted to discuss SPARQL 1.2 CG
17:46:45 <AndyS> Lists are one example
17:47:11 <pchampin> rubensworks: technical question: per the charter, new features in SPARQL, as suggested by the "SPARQL 1.2" CG, are out of scope. Correct?
17:47:21 <ora> ack ora
17:49:58 <csarven> q+
17:50:05 <pchampin> pchampin: the RECs we will publish will not include other features than RDF-star
17:50:40 <pchampin> ... but they will "allow new features" per the new W3C process, without going through the whole lifecycle
17:50:58 <pchampin> AndyS: also, different features interest different communities
17:51:39 <pchampin> rubensworks: does it mean that we have to wait until that group's work is finish to start adding new features?
17:51:41 <ora> ack csarven
17:52:06 <pchampin> AndyS: just like we did with the RDF-DEV CG for RDF-star, a CG can start working on new features in parallel with the WG
17:53:03 <pchampin> csarven: if a proposal was made to this group, with an editor's draft for, says RDFa-star, and people willing to work on it,
17:53:25 <pchampin> ... would this group accept it as a new deliverable, or would it have to wait for a new WG?
17:54:37 <pchampin> ... I think the expertise in this group would make it a good platform to adopt such a document. Better than creating a seperate WG.
17:54:54 <gkellogg> q+
17:55:03 <TallTed> q+
17:55:15 <pchampin> ora: there are two things: adding RDF-star features to RDFa, and adding other things to RDF-a. The second would be out of scope.
17:55:22 <gkellogg> q-
17:55:31 <pchampin> Topic: Next meeting
17:56:03 <pchampin> ora: would the timeslot of this meeting work for everybody?
17:56:22 <pchampin> ... also, would we meet once a week?
17:56:28 <TallTed> this time conflicts with Privacy IG and CG.  Not a blocker for me, but awareness may matter...
17:56:29 <AndyS> q+
17:56:51 <pchampin> ... I think once a week is good to start. Maybe later we can setup task forces.
17:57:12 <pchampin> TallTed: this timeslot conflicts with the Privacy IG and CG.
17:57:50 <ora> ack tallted
17:57:51 <pchampin> ... About the adoption of new work items: this can happen (that happened with JSON-LD and the RDF 1.1 WG).
17:57:53 <ora> ack andys
17:58:49 <pchampin> AndyS: most work nowadays happen on github repositories, through issues and PRs
17:58:58 <pchampin> ... I assume that we will work that way.
17:59:22 <pchampin> ... Call time can be dedicated to more administrative issues.
18:00:01 <pchampin> ora: we are reaching the top of the hour.
18:00:26 <pchampin> ... I propose that we reconvene next week same time. We can reconsider the schedule then.
18:01:15 <TallTed> +1 start at x:00, end at x:55
18:01:30 <pchampin> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:01:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/10-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
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18:01:53 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
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20:52:46 <csarven> pchampin: sorry, I forgot to present+. Possible to amend the minutes?
21:00:00 <pchampin_> present+ AZ, csarven, dchaves, Doerthe, EFranconi, remiceres, Souri
21:00:00 <pchampin_> s/graphs or graphs/graphs of graphs/