14:19:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
14:19:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/10-coga-irc
14:19:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:19:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:19:28 <trackbot> Date: 10 November 2022
14:19:51 <Lisa> regrets: Rebecca , aaron , EA
14:20:18 <Lisa> scribe+ Rashmi
14:21:25 <Lisa> agenda+ scribe sign up https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list
14:21:48 <Lisa> agenda?
14:22:07 <Lisa> clear agenda
14:22:11 <Lisa> agenda+ scribe sign up https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list
14:23:12 <Lisa> agenda+ subgroups updates amd kpis https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.1bvszq5s0esc  also look at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n_pV-lbgorW2oihIB4EdONOFN0EcRmBAkmUEEPdTAEw/edit#
14:23:51 <Lisa> agenda+ acton requests at https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.ka7r1m4q5vkc
14:24:52 <Lisa> agenda+ Collaborative tools
14:25:06 <Lisa> agenda+ Training materials suggestions
14:25:35 <Lisa> agenda+  Reminder send out survey for research papers
14:26:41 <Lisa> agenda+  Research collaborations (structure and research sub groups) at https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.6co50luve41b. Also see Research plan draft outline
14:27:37 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
14:27:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/10-coga-minutes.html Lisa
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14:58:42 <rashmi> present+
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14:59:45 <Jennie> present+
15:00:51 <Fazio> present+
15:01:05 <Lisa> scribe+ Rashmi
15:01:18 <Lisa> zakim next item
15:01:20 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
15:01:22 <Rain> present+
15:01:27 <Lisa> zakim, next item
15:01:27 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- scribe sign up https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list -- taken up [from Lisa]
15:01:59 <Lisa> zakim, next item
15:01:59 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, Lisa
15:02:06 <Lisa> close item 1
15:02:08 <ShawnT> ShawnT has joined #coga
15:02:13 <Lisa> zakim, next item
15:02:13 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- subgroups updates amd kpis https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.1bvszq5s0esc  also look at
15:02:16 <Zakim> ... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n_pV-lbgorW2oihIB4EdONOFN0EcRmBAkmUEEPdTAEw/edit# -- taken up [from Lisa]
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15:03:44 <julierawe> present+
15:03:46 <kirkwood> present+
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15:04:00 <rashmi> Lisa:Last week we moved Research subgroup into the main group
15:04:12 <kirkwood> kpi?
15:04:30 <Jennie> KPI: key performance indicator
15:04:31 <Rain> KPI stands for key performance indicator
15:04:44 <kirkwood> ;)
15:06:45 <Fazio> I received 5 publications to review from Joanne Nicholson, Ph.D., Professor Institute for Behavioral Health Schneider Institutes for Health Policy
15:06:52 <Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XWmikm5Ein5CQ02knEJ5iGzO1YJMilTMBJ_aLVCTzs0/edit#heading=h.bc4vqyklmnk0
15:10:53 <julierawe> Can you please share the url for the COGA Action Items doc?
15:11:16 <rashmi> Lisa:We are having extra meeting for mental health subgroup on 15th November at 10 am Boston time .Rashmi will send mail with agenda as reminder
15:11:29 <rashmi> Thank you Rachael
15:12:25 <rashmi> Rain:By next week we will have discussion on feedback for structure
15:12:58 <rashmi> ...and we will discuss about qualitative aspect of the research
15:15:43 <rashmi> Julie:Looking forward to the feedback ,and will have meeting by end of December or may be in January
15:15:47 <JustineP> present+
15:16:19 <rashmi> Rachael:I am expecting feedback from AG in Late January or February to circle back
15:21:06 <kirkwood> +1 to research
15:22:10 <rashmi> Lisa:Its very much technology question so that would require synergy from more people on top of technology to work for clear language work
15:22:16 <Rain> subgroup schedule: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups
15:23:30 <Fazio> I'll be in Brasilia next week
15:23:34 <Rain> +1 I will be on vacation on the 22nd and 29th of December
15:23:36 <Jennie> Thanks for the link Rain!
15:23:42 <Lisa> work on the 15th dec and the 5th of january
15:24:07 <kirkwood> +1 ok
15:24:31 <kirkwood> oops i meant ok for both
15:24:39 <julierawe> +1 to meeting on the 15th of Dec and on the 5th of January
15:25:16 <rashmi> Rashmi:I will on vacation on 5t January
15:26:21 <rashmi> Lisa:Let me know if you are available on what dates of January and February so that we can plan meetings
15:27:16 <rashmi> Lisa:For Test plan strategy we made lots of changes
15:27:35 <rashmi> ...David swallow is doing potential outreach
15:28:21 <Lisa> next item
15:29:07 <rashmi> Jnnie:For image subgroup we will have updates after next friday
15:30:36 <rashmi> Lisa:Jennie do you need time in main meeting to discuss
15:31:35 <rashmi> Jennie:It may have in the start of December
15:32:38 <rashmi> Jennie:I am not available except 15th in the month of December
15:34:11 <rashmi> Julie:About EO I had interacted with Shadi.
15:34:48 <rashmi> They incorporated all of our suggestions
15:35:14 <Lisa> Q?
15:35:16 <Jennie> I have updated the holidays in December onto the scribe list.
15:35:36 <rashmi> ...If we see anything massively wrong only then we will flag it
15:36:29 <rashmi> It seems They did incorporated important changes
15:36:46 <rashmi> I will confirm it on Saturday
15:39:42 <rashmi> Julie:I will create a google doc as github is hard and will ask to flag people to flag if its only massive issue
15:39:52 <Rain> Rain will review
15:40:21 <Lisa> thank you
15:40:25 <rashmi> John:I can also review
15:41:28 <rashmi> I want to make a APA issue on github on Audio description track? Did anyone make it?
15:42:31 <rashmi> Lisa:I want to make a APA issue on github on Audio description track? Did anyone make it?
15:46:08 <Rachael> q+
15:46:13 <Lisa> ack next
15:46:40 <kirkwood> cognitive & low vision … such as  aging related often go together.
15:46:46 <rashmi> Lisa:In the functional need we are missing how cognitive disabilities affect other assistive technology usage
15:47:52 <rashmi> q+
15:48:02 <Lisa> ack next
15:48:38 <Lisa> rashmi: mental health overlaps as well
15:51:39 <Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wu0WYcvCpp-zIz2NzPk2AuTJOrzgh3T4sKQgzCa10ps/edit#
15:52:26 <rashmi> Lisa:as comorbidty and multiple impairment together I will add to the new research agenda along with Rachael's suggestion
15:53:07 <Lisa> agenda?
15:53:33 <Lisa> close item 4
15:53:41 <Lisa> next item
15:56:12 <rashmi> Lisa:I want to make short interview video to discuss about specific issue making it a bit personel
15:56:28 <rashmi> ...If anybody is interested
15:56:39 <julierawe> q+
15:56:46 <rashmi> ...they can ping me
15:56:51 <Lisa> ack next
15:57:36 <rashmi> ...If anything is making training material and are happy to share
15:58:40 <rashmi> Julie:Short video will be more helpful
15:59:01 <rashmi> Lisa:I am planning to make around 3 min conversation
15:59:19 <rashmi> ...and would script it beforehand
16:00:02 <ShawnT> present+
16:00:22 <rashmi> Thank you everyone
16:00:47 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/10-coga-minutes.html Lisa
16:00:49 <Rain> Thank you. Will return for test group
16:01:04 <Lisa> topic: testing subb group
16:01:50 <Lisa> agenda+ Review KPIs, https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups/Testing
16:02:20 <Lisa> scribe+ lisa
16:03:26 <Jennie> agenda+ continue working on Content Usable's 4.8.1
16:04:06 <Jennie> Zakim, take up item 9
16:04:06 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- continue working on Content Usable's 4.8.1 -- taken up [from Jennie]
16:07:01 <Lisa> looking at 4.8.1 in content useble, and making test, and test process
16:08:13 <Lisa> to make sure we know the easy sell testable
16:09:52 <Lisa> and make a leyered aprouh to  test as this is approved
16:10:14 <Lisa> lisa: we should document the aprouch of a layed aprouch
16:10:37 <Jennie> Is it ok with the group to start by looking at binary tests for 4.8.1, with the understanding that we will next work on other test types.
16:10:55 <julierawe> +1
16:10:56 <ShawnT> q+
16:11:09 <Lisa> q+
16:11:28 <Lisa> shawn: we are looking at the examples in 4.8.1
16:11:54 <Lisa> ack next
16:11:59 <Lisa> ack next
16:12:53 <Lisa> lisa: i wanted more a test proces
16:13:12 <Jennie> Layered approach could be used
16:13:14 <Lisa> for content useable
16:13:33 <Jennie> Phase 1: Identify areas in examples of 4.8.1 that can be tested in binary fashion
16:13:57 <Jennie> Phase 2: (option 1) write way to test binary elements (only) for Making Content Usable
16:14:31 <Jennie> Phase 2: (option 2) Identify areas in exaples of 4.8.1 that can be tested using another test type like procedural
16:14:54 <Lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups/Testing
16:16:01 <Jennie> Lisa: need a process document on how to test Making Content Usable
16:16:06 <Jennie> ...Doesn't have to be filled in
16:16:25 <Jennie> ...Example someone wants to come along and say they conform to Making Content Usable. What does that mean?
16:16:52 <Jennie> ...This could be a layered approach, but collecting tests would not necessarily do this
16:17:08 <Jennie> ....We may need an example test of each kind, then move to the document of this structure
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16:17:25 <Jennie> ...We have not agreed on whether accessibility could be a user involved process or not
16:17:31 <Jennie> ...There is lots to do there
16:17:38 <Jennie> ...We know there are unit tests there
16:18:06 <ShawnT> q+ to say are should we test Making Content Usable to WCAG 2.X testing method?
16:18:56 <Lisa> shawbn: we are aligning with silver? so should it be alighend with 2.x
16:19:05 <Lisa> Q?
16:19:09 <Lisa> ack next
16:19:10 <Zakim> ShawnT, you wanted to say are should we test Making Content Usable to WCAG 2.X testing method?
16:19:26 <Jennie> Lisa: that is not what we were trying to do
16:19:42 <Jennie> ...We should add this as an agenda item
16:19:56 <Jennie> q+
16:20:12 <Lisa> scribe+ julie
16:20:55 <julierawe> Lisa: When we set up the KPIs in our new charter, we said we were going to have a section on testing Content Usable.
16:21:15 <julierawe> Lisa: We said we were going to work on how to test for it. Could be an appendix, could be a stand-alone.
16:21:38 <julierawe> Lisa: Rachael said she needs to know what it's going to look like. A process? Focused on user-testing?
16:22:06 <julierawe> Lisa: I think we're trying to make a proposal of what testing Content Usable should involve, not just what we can do to make it aligned for Silver.
16:22:16 <Jennie> q?
16:23:09 <julierawe> q+
16:23:28 <kirkwood> Is the “resource”  “test section of editors draft’ resource link not accesssible anymore? https://rawgit.com/w3c/silver/update_test_section/guidelines/index.html#convention-tests
16:23:43 <julierawe> Lisa: We have to put forward a proposal, an outline that people can discuss — it doesn't have to align with WCAG 3
16:24:02 <Lisa> ack next
16:24:04 <julierawe> Lisa: I don't think we should start with how to align the way other people test
16:24:43 <julierawe> Rain: I think the goal is to break this out into chunked tasks so we can move forward
16:24:53 <Lisa> q?
16:24:54 <julierawe> Rain: Trying to do all of that at once might be hard to make progress
16:25:07 <julierawe> Rain: It makes sense to start with the easy things and then get them out of the way
16:25:22 <julierawe> Rain: The nice thing about identifying the easy binary ones can be put into the testing program.
16:25:44 <julierawe> Rain: The stuff that's not binary will involve a more subjective process with people.
16:27:53 <Lisa> ack next
16:28:41 <ShawnT> Jennie: agrees with Lisa
16:28:48 <ShawnT> ... on the original goal
16:29:07 <ShawnT> ... we had some constraints on the original goal
16:29:21 <Rain> q+
16:29:30 <ShawnT> ... the types of test Silver / names of tests keep changing
16:29:41 <julierawe_> julierawe_ has joined #coga
16:29:45 <julierawe_> present+
16:29:53 <julierawe_> sorry, my internet dropped—am back now!
16:29:58 <Rain> q-
16:30:16 <julierawe_> Jennie: If I gave a testing protocol that is not complete, then many organizations would not use it.
16:30:29 <ShawnT> ... if someone wants to test Making content usable we need to show that some test as possible
16:30:37 <julierawe_> Jennie: But if we say here are some tests with high interrater reliability, orgs will use it.
16:30:57 <julierawe_> Jennie: I don't want to spend all of our time on binary testing. Once we have a couple binary tests, then we can move on.
16:31:20 <julierawe_> q+
16:31:39 <Jennie> Julie: I want to say that Lisa has made an excellent point
16:31:45 <Jennie> ....I was looking at 4.8.1
16:31:54 <Jennie> ...It starts with "easy to find on a page"
16:32:07 <Jennie> ...This is very different from "is there a phone number"
16:32:21 <Jennie> ...To me it sounds like this is where we could come up with ease of use
16:32:27 <Jennie> ....We know we can find a phone number
16:32:36 <Jennie> ...But how easy is it for people to find the phone number
16:32:44 <Rain> q+
16:32:46 <Jennie> ....Does it take 20 clicks to get to the phone number?
16:32:58 <Jennie> ....If we weren't trying to get aligned with the other processes
16:33:02 <Jennie> ...and set those aside
16:33:21 <Jennie> ....How would we guide organizations to do user testing so they are accessible to people with cognitive disabilities
16:33:39 <Jennie> ...Then we could show how to do guidance on how to get their different teams
16:33:47 <Jennie> ...It is going to be challenging to map it out
16:33:53 <Jennie> ...Lisa has persuaded me
16:34:03 <Jennie> ...So we don't focus on how to align with the other initiatives
16:34:26 <julierawe_> Rain: I'm liking the way this conversation is going in terms of how we think about these tests.
16:35:03 <julierawe_> Rain: It does actually align with how the testing group is thinking.
16:35:36 <julierawe_> Rain: Prescriptive tests come in two forms: computational is yes/no is there a phone number. Qualitative is the phone number usable.
16:36:10 <julierawe_> Rain: Adaptive is are using with certain color coding able to identify and use the phone number.
16:36:22 <Lisa> q+
16:36:28 <Jennie> ack Julie
16:36:28 <Lisa> ack next
16:36:35 <Lisa> ack next
16:36:43 <julierawe_> Rain: Is there a phone number is an important binary because right now it's not required. Then we need to move on to the qualitative questions under a series of different contexts.
16:37:32 <julierawe_> Lisa: Another approach is a maturity model. Does your research include people with learning and cognitive disabilities? How many? How many different ones are included?
16:37:53 <kirkwood> is it in a standard place? - is there a style guide? has a usability test been done? are the link and scrolls?  .. is there a self attestation to include cogntive disabilities in testing?
16:37:59 <julierawe_> Lisa: The maturity model is a completely different angle. Does your user testing include people with learning and cognitive disabilities? Do the tasks include getting help?
16:38:37 <Jennie> q+
16:38:44 <julierawe_> Lisa: Coming from an entirely different angle. But if you've included in your design team, a focus group or qualitative testing with variety of people, then you've done it and I think you've done it better than a unit test
16:39:21 <julierawe_> Lisa: Having some unit tests, yes, we need to identify them. But is that phone number above the fold? Is that phone number findable?
16:39:51 <julierawe_> Lisa: I'm not saying we should do this, but maybe this is a better direction for Content Usable. What are the different approaches, the different ways that an organization could do it
16:40:24 <julierawe_> John K: I agree with everything that has been said.
16:40:52 <julierawe_> John K: To address through internal style guides and commitment to test with people with learning and cognitive disabilities
16:41:16 <julierawe_> John K: To attest that it was done and get feedback from users to ensure that this community is heard
16:41:51 <julierawe_> John K: The phone number is a great example. I have a lot of hesitation around phone numbers online with larger entities I've worked with.
16:42:04 <Lisa> q+
16:42:25 <julierawe_> John K: I'm a little bit wary of putting too much into phone numbers because a lot of companies can't do it just from a scaling perspective, so I want to ensure we don't depend too heavily on phone numbers
16:42:50 <julierawe_> Shawn: I agree with what's been said. What I'm hearing a lot is usability testing. Test with people with disabilities.
16:43:15 <julierawe_> Shawn: Binary testing is good. I agree with Rain that baby steps are good to start off small and hopefully end big.
16:43:34 <julierawe_> Shawn: Make sure you have a human person to call or email is just a start. Make it findable is another thing.
16:43:43 <julierawe_> Shawn: I think focusing on usability testing might be where we have to go.
16:44:06 <kirkwood> +1 to focus on usability testing procedures
16:44:23 <julierawe_> Jennie: My perspective is I'm hearing lots of support for this idea. One of the things we have to tease out is which section to focus on for our example.
16:44:45 <julierawe_> Jennie: To do that, we need to weed out certain parts to make sure we're focusing on specific area that will be the best example to test.
16:45:10 <Jennie> Proposal: homework - each group member write out a sample structure of what the document that could be created would contain.
16:45:48 <Lisa> +1
16:45:57 <julierawe_> Jennie: Does the group feel that one homework assignment — to write out the headings — is helpful?
16:45:59 <ShawnT> +1
16:46:01 <kirkwood> understand that my hesitation for phone number can give an ‘out’ to ensuring that the site is independently accessible for those with diverse cognitive needs
16:46:01 <julierawe_> +1
16:46:05 <kirkwood> +1
16:46:08 <Rain> +1
16:46:19 <Jennie> ack Jennie
16:46:44 <Jennie> ack Lisa
16:47:05 <julierawe_> Lisa: Taking 4.8.1 as the one that we use might be a good one to experiment with. My husband and I are neurodiverse. We're trying to get through to an organization. We tried their What'sApp chat and it's a bot
16:47:18 <julierawe_> Lisa: We can't reach anyone who is vaguely helpful.
16:48:02 <julierawe_> Lisa: What is the process to make sure all the unit tests? If they have a phone number and the phone number takes you to a bot?
16:48:33 <julierawe_> Lisa: If everyone does it, then we could see how they compare
16:48:49 <julierawe_> Lisa: We may see the limitations of the help
16:49:09 <kirkwood> … that said a well-designed phone tree can be better than a website
16:49:18 <julierawe_> Jennie: This has been a really good conversation. Shawn, can you put link to where we'll put the homework?
16:49:37 <julierawe_> q+
16:49:39 <Lisa> is it this link?https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Otsl4HTCvpQj63xYVKzOVkulf6o75dWEthu6WI9Vtj8/edit#heading=h.7ejnh0q5wdpx
16:50:19 <julierawe_> Jennie: Coming back to our KPI: We have initial draft created, feedback from key stakeholders like AG and Rules Working Group, and get to working draft.
16:50:30 <julierawe_> Jennie: Does anyone have concerns about that plan?
16:50:41 <Lisa> eg is for example
16:51:06 <Jennie> Julie: I want to address John K's concerns about the phone number
16:51:22 <Jennie> ....We may want to think broadly to include the other ways to get help other than just a phone number
16:51:35 <Jennie> ...It is valid that having a phone number as the only option for help would be onerous
16:51:40 <kirkwood> ok thank you
16:52:02 <Lisa> +1
16:52:08 <Rain> +1
16:52:22 <ShawnT> +1
16:52:28 <Lisa> Initial exploratory draft created, feedback requested from some stakeholders (EG silver, rules WG)  Plan to get to working draft (phase 1)
16:52:28 <Jennie>  Initial exploratory draft created, feedback requested from some stakeholders (EG silver, rules WG) Plan to get to working draft (phase 1)
16:52:39 <julierawe_> +1
16:52:46 <kirkwood> +1
16:53:27 <julierawe_> Jennie: March 2023 is when we're scheduled to complete draft and collect first round of feedback
16:53:34 <julierawe_> Lisa: Confirmed
16:53:54 <julierawe_> Jennie: Is the group confident that if we put together some proposals together that we could achieve that KPI in March?
16:53:55 <julierawe_> q+
16:54:05 <Lisa> 0 need to see how it looks after the homeworks....
16:54:13 <Jennie> Julie: I think that a question I have - the draft is doable
16:54:20 <Jennie> ....I'm not sure how long it will take to get feedback
16:54:29 <Jennie> ...Example: it could take a couple of months
16:54:55 <julierawe_> 0
16:54:59 <ShawnT> 0
16:55:07 <julierawe_> 0 because not sure how long it will take to get feedback from other group
16:55:23 <julierawe_> Jennie: Is is reasonable if the group confirms the KPI the next time we get together?
16:55:36 <julierawe_> Lisa: It's good for us to think about do we need to adjust the KPI
16:55:51 <julierawe_> Jennie: Did Shawn find a spot for drafting the homework?
16:56:00 <julierawe_> Shawn: Lisa posted the link
16:56:01 <Lisa> is it this link?https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Otsl4HTCvpQj63xYVKzOVkulf6o75dWEthu6WI9Vtj8/edit#heading=h.7ejnh0q5wdpx
16:56:17 <julierawe_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Otsl4HTCvpQj63xYVKzOVkulf6o75dWEthu6WI9Vtj8/edit#heading=h.7ejnh0q5wdpx
16:56:33 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:56:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/10-coga-minutes.html Lisa
16:56:43 <julierawe_> Jennie: I'm adding a section "Draft your document structure here" and will put each person's name so you can search for your name and find your spot
16:57:41 <julierawe_> Shawn: I'll fix the headings
16:58:00 <julierawe_> Jennie: It sounds like we have a plan for the next meeting. If there are questions in between, please reach out to Shawn and myself
16:58:01 <julierawe_> q+
16:58:26 <julierawe_> Julie: When do we need to complete homework assignment?
16:58:32 <julierawe_> Shawn: Dec 15 is our next group meeting
16:58:42 <julierawe_> Jennie: That works for me
16:58:52 <ShawnT> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups
16:59:05 <ShawnT> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups/Testing
16:59:10 <julierawe_> Lisa: Confirm that's what's on the subgroup page
16:59:19 <julierawe_> Jennie: Wishing everyone a wonderulf rest of your day!
16:59:26 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:59:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/10-coga-minutes.html Lisa