13:40:34 RRSAgent has joined #silver 13:40:34 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/04-silver-irc 13:40:36 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:40:38 Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group 13:41:59 agenda+ Preview of Tuesday AG WG call 13:41:59 agenda+ Review asynchronously drafted user needs 13:42:19 agenda? 13:42:33 zakim, clear agenda 13:42:33 agenda cleared 13:42:36 agenda+ Preview of Tuesday AG WG call 13:42:36 agenda+ Review asynchronously drafted user needs 13:42:44 present: 13:42:47 present+ 13:42:59 rrsagent, make minutes 13:42:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/04-silver-minutes.html jeanne 13:45:23 SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver 13:52:34 Lauriat has joined #silver 13:52:36 agenda? 13:52:42 Present+ 13:57:18 MichaelC has joined #silver 14:03:17 Makoto has joined #silver 14:03:19 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List 14:03:24 sarahhorton has joined #silver 14:03:25 ToddL has joined #silver 14:03:31 present+ 14:03:45 scribe: ToddL 14:03:52 present+ 14:03:59 present+ 14:04:32 agenda? 14:04:44 AG Email with survey links -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2022Nov/0002.html 14:05:12 jeanne: This week is a survey on Holiday availability (US) 14:05:20 JenStrickland has joined #silver 14:05:23 Survey on COnformance Related options -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag3-conformance-questions/ 14:05:24 jeanne: Another survey on conformance 14:05:26 present+ 14:05:44 jeanne: continuing conformance discussion based on Google Docs 14:05:58 Conformance models discussion (breakout session) -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11nYPYXWtUkLMYfM4YMtGKF0W7sdhcnnO28slbm3y4q0/edit# 14:06:01 jeanne: breakout sessions will be held 14:06:23 zakim, take up next 14:06:23 agendum 1 -- Preview of Tuesday AG WG call -- taken up [from jeanne] 14:06:31 Wilco has joined #silver 14:06:32 zakim, take up next 14:06:32 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ToddL 14:06:34 present+ 14:06:37 q? 14:06:42 zakim, take up item 2 14:06:42 agendum 2 -- Review asynchronously drafted user needs -- taken up [from jeanne] 14:06:42 ack me 14:06:44 Lauriat, you wanted to ask about the notions database, given the spreadsheet doesn't link to alt text grouping exercise doc 14:06:50 ack janina 14:07:16 Zakim, take up item 2 14:07:16 agendum 2 -- Review asynchronously drafted user needs -- taken up [from jeanne] 14:07:57 jeanne: would like to start with the homework that the group did 14:08:28 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zLOSUWkXDkT_uyVVKpuidtOF_LLEhaAXJ8v88oM1Wn4/edit# 14:10:06 Makoto: copied items from functional needs and user needs into doc and worked it into alt text 14:11:10 Makoto: would like to confrm which way should we write user needs? 14:12:00 Makoto: tried to write outcomes, would like to get feedback. 14:12:23 +1 to the question 14:12:41 Topic: Should we include the disability type in the user need? 14:12:47 jeanne: should we include the disability type in the user need? 14:12:51 q+ 14:12:58 ack sarahhorton 14:13:14 sarahhorton: has had different thoughts about it. 14:13:44 sarahhorton: talk about user needs in a general way, break that down into different functional needs. 14:14:34 sarahhorton: with severity group, trying to create a matrix 14:15:06 q+ to talk about granularity of outcome vs user needs 14:15:41 sarahhorton: helps to make it more generic, adaptable to mutliple uses 14:15:54 ack je 14:15:54 jeanne, you wanted to talk about granularity of outcome vs user needs 14:15:57 +1 very helpful 14:16:14 jeanne: thinking about granularity question again 14:16:33 jeanne: Makoto's outcomes were more generic and the user needs were more specific 14:16:48 jeanne: do we want an outcome that is more generic (flexibility) 14:17:00 jeanne: have user needs under it that are associated with the methods 14:18:45 jeanne: if we took outcome page and put user needs on outcome page and linked to methods, it makes it harder to find them 14:19:09 jeanne: could put user needs in WCAG 3 document 14:20:11 q+ to ask something along the lines of "People using assistive technology have their AT programmatically access the alternative text to help them perceive/understand images."? or "Assistive technology can programmatically determine alternative text of images"? 14:20:59 Lauriat: working to understand how to write outcomes, wanted to explore going beyond the pure web content of things 14:22:00 Lauriat: different ways that you can expose alternative text may not be support by browsers, for instance 14:22:46 ack me 14:22:46 Lauriat, you wanted to ask something along the lines of "People using assistive technology have their AT programmatically access the alternative text to help them 14:22:49 ... perceive/understand images."? or "Assistive technology can programmatically determine alternative text of images"? 14:24:14 q+ 14:24:27 ack sarahhorton 14:25:09 sarahhorton: describing user needs for error prevention guidelines 14:26:13 sarahhorton: came up with things that are not currently in WCAG, things and needs that we felt were important that were not addressed 14:26:22 janina has joined #silver 14:26:25 present+ 14:27:23 +1 to what Sarah said! 14:28:10 jeanne: invite anyone else that worked on the homework to discuss their work 14:31:04 jeanne: will go over Suzanne's work 14:31:57 Users who are blind need short fun descriptions of visual content designed to create engagement that will a) also created engagement and b) allow children to talk with their peers about the fun aspects of the content (e.g. describe the monster) 14:32:15 Users with low vision may appreciate simple labels for photographs of items in our world, so they can expand their experience, even if the photograph is not the main point of the content 14:33:05 In this doc, for those who joined recently -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zLOSUWkXDkT_uyVVKpuidtOF_LLEhaAXJ8v88oM1Wn4/edit 14:37:04 jeanne: let's figure out the key issues that we need to decide 14:37:05 present+ 14:38:26 jeanne: we could have the user needs for the different types of images, should we have the different types of flows? 14:39:26 +1 to including the flows at least as examples 14:39:49 q+ 14:41:05 q+ to note the need for method-agnostic outcomes and the balance of prescriptive and ambiguous guidance 14:41:10 ack SuzanneTaylor 14:41:16 SuzanneTaylor: if we can keep it simpler and note the realities, the UX people will pick up a11y more readily. 14:41:29 +1 to that 14:42:05 jeanne: would like to give a more worked out example to AGWG 14:43:59 q+ 14:44:01 Lauriat: how to take WCAG and gear it towards designers. change the audience for the normative bits 14:44:08 ack me 14:44:08 Lauriat, you wanted to note the need for method-agnostic outcomes and the balance of prescriptive and ambiguous guidance 14:44:13 +1,000,000 to Lauriat re previous WCAG seemed more for devs and this effort seems geared more to helping designers understand. 14:44:24 ack SuzanneTaylor 14:44:26 q+ 14:44:26 q+ 14:44:43 ack JenStrickland 14:45:07 JenStrickland: probably want to docuemnt for product people and think about those different roles 14:45:10 +1 14:45:16 +1 to analyzing the roles and assigning to the guidelines, outcomes, etc 14:45:16 JenStrickland: to help them get to the outcomes 14:45:17 +1 to Suzanne and Shawn; different audiences to WCAG3 components 14:45:42 Scribe+ Lauriat 14:46:28 ToddL: Working with designers, I hear the same thing as others getting into accessibility: how can I understand this document and gear it toward others who have a better understanding? 14:46:47 ToddL: I go over things with designers on guidance like use of color, etc., so big +1 to this 14:46:59 q+ 14:47:03 ack ToddL 14:47:07 ack SuzanneTaylor 14:47:38 SuzanneTaylor: can volunteer to write a proposal, an example to write the roles. 14:47:50 SuzanneTaylor: can look at the next meeting 14:48:13 q+ 14:48:50 I'm thinking… trying to figure out what I could do to help. Perhaps I can draft a bit on prod & research, jot some contributions to the designer notes. 14:48:58 ack sarahhorton 14:49:18 sarahhorton: abstract it on another level and talka bout things that happen in design 14:50:13 +1 to activities over roles 14:50:31 sarahhorton: rather than think about specific roles, you have design activity and implementation activity, and many other activities 14:50:38 +1 also to activities 14:51:38 +1 to multiple examples 14:51:40 q+ 14:51:47 +1 to multiple examples 14:52:08 ack sarahhorton 14:52:10 adding on to sarahhorton: strategic and research activities 14:52:21 sarahhorton: suggest we take something other than image alt text and go down a rabbit hole of talking about images alweays 14:52:25 +1, examples showing a range of things would help 14:52:30 sarahhorton: pick some other requirements 14:52:33 +1 to that 14:54:10 rrssagent, make minutes 14:54:29 rrsagent, make minutes 14:54:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/04-silver-minutes.html jeanne 14:54:48 s/rrssagent, make minutes// 15:13:32 s/Lauriat, you wanted to ask about the notions database, given the spreadsheet doesn't link to alt text grouping exercise doc// 15:13:48 rrsagent, make minutes 15:13:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/04-silver-minutes.html jeanne 15:17:08 chair: Shawn, jeanne 15:17:15 rrsagent, make minutes 15:17:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/04-silver-minutes.html jeanne 16:15:00 maryjom has joined #silver 16:18:48 maryjom has joined #silver 16:19:08 maryjom has joined #silver 16:46:29 maryjom has joined #silver 17:05:29 maryjom has joined #silver 18:23:12 maryjom has joined #silver 18:35:38 SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver 18:44:32 maryjom has joined #silver 21:19:52 SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver 21:49:51 MichaelC_ has joined #silver 22:16:11 maryjom has joined #silver 22:46:59 maryjom has joined #silver 23:47:18 maryjom has joined #silver