16:17:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:17:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/03-aria-irc
16:17:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:17:51 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:17:58 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:17:58 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:17:58 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20221103T130000
16:17:58 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:17:58 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3gVhwqh
16:17:59 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3We4fJA
16:18:01 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:18:04 <agendabot> agenda+  -> ARIAMixin and ElementInternals https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1843
16:18:07 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Define how custom elements are exposed to AT https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/175
16:18:10 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69
16:18:12 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+
16:18:59 <jamesn> present+
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17:00:55 <chlane> present+
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17:02:55 <spectranaut> agenda?
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17:03:05 <pkra> present+
17:03:11 <Adam_Page> present+
17:03:11 <chlane> scribe:
17:03:17 <spectranaut> chair: spectranaut
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17:03:31 <scotto> present+
17:03:36 <arigilmore> present+
17:03:41 <chlane> scribe:chlane
17:03:57 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
17:03:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3gVhwqh -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:00 <melsumner> present+
17:04:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/03-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
17:05:00 <chlane> ARIA 1844,
17:05:14 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:05:20 <chlane> not a required owned element per JAws test
17:05:38 <chlane> scotto: not a required element, sarah's pr make alleviate
17:05:49 <chlane> wilcos other issue fall under same bucket
17:05:56 <chlane> scotto: will respond
17:06:02 <chlane> aam 445
17:06:19 <chlane> special description computation
17:06:24 <chlane> scotto: get on agenda
17:06:37 <chlane> related to updated score accname desc
17:07:05 <chlane> special conditions for html elements, name becomes description
17:07:20 <chlane> why do these elements get special treatment?
17:07:30 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
17:07:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3We4fJA -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:58 <chlane> pkra: how shall we treat issues with updates?
17:08:19 <chlane> look at issues with updates, the token thing, could be deep dive, editors meeting
17:08:31 <chlane> spectranaut: plus the issue
17:08:55 <chlane> Pr aam 15
17:09:03 <chlane> updates on mappings
17:09:11 <chlane> reviewers?
17:09:25 <chlane> html aam 444
17:09:35 <chlane> further alignment w/accname desc updates
17:09:58 <chlane> scotto: did second PR to align with core aam description PR
17:10:15 <chlane> we should be able to merge them, this one and updated core aam pr
17:10:36 <chlane> aam 443
17:10:48 <chlane> reference to placeholder in naming comp
17:11:37 <chlane> it should be html aam 443
17:13:09 <chlane> jcraig: draft pr
17:13:27 <chlane> spectranaut: no way to end up back in our triage agenda
17:13:42 <chlane> jcraig: how do you take it out of the new pr triage
17:13:49 <chlane> spectranaut: it just looks for new prs
17:13:56 <chlane> jcraig: its fine to leave it on list
17:14:11 <chlane> pkra: updated prs
17:14:19 <chlane> as a secondary step
17:14:35 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
17:14:35 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:59 <chlane> pkra: flow to discussion
17:15:08 <chlane> spectranaut: next week?
17:15:46 <chlane> conflicts ....
17:15:54 <chlane> sheduling
17:16:03 <chlane> alt time 4pm pacific?
17:16:23 <chlane> jcraig: can do next week
17:16:31 <chlane> pkra: midnight for peter
17:17:13 <chlane> jcraig: 12/8 normal time?
17:17:35 <chlane> scotto: it has been this way for a while lol
17:17:49 <chlane> s/lol//g
17:18:00 <chlane> scotto: flow to 12/8
17:18:17 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
17:18:17 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> ARIAMixin and ElementInternals https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1843 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:51 <chlane> spectranaut: can anyone introduce this?
17:19:56 <chlane> jcraig: additions with IDL in ARIA spec
17:20:22 <chlane> spectranaut: not a lot to discuss
17:20:58 <chlane> pkra: theres going to be work on the week of 12/7
17:21:08 <chlane> in the other issue matrix chatlog
17:21:38 <chlane> cyn aom meeting this afternoon
17:21:52 <chlane> short notice
17:22:12 <chlane> putting on pending agenda items
17:22:54 <chlane> scotto: per domonics comment in html issue, there doesn't seem to be a spec that identifies how aria checked different states values be mapped
17:23:04 <chlane> done in aria, html aam , core aam,
17:23:24 <chlane> jcraig: have to look into possible a resuable pattern referenced from html
17:23:31 <chlane> stream reflection, token list
17:23:34 <chlane> enumerables
17:23:50 <chlane> prefer no specific processing markup algo
17:23:57 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:24:00 <chlane> rather in a broader spec like html
17:24:18 <Matt_King> present+
17:24:18 <chlane> Zakim, next item
17:24:18 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Define how custom elements are exposed to AT https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/175 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:37 <chlane> spectranaut: similar, also from anna
17:24:55 <chlane> scotto: i don't think it belongs in accname
17:25:08 <chlane> either aria issue or html aam or core aam
17:25:20 <chlane> comes down to how the other issue is resolved
17:25:34 <chlane> cyn scheduling sync with Anna
17:25:48 <chlane> spectranaut: PR against accname for a month
17:26:07 <chlane> PR 170 need reviewers
17:26:17 <chlane> melsumner: working on it
17:26:38 <chlane> some discussion about alignment, need more feedback
17:26:44 <chlane> meeting later today
17:26:52 <chlane> spectranaut: accname 170
17:27:07 <chlane> jamesn: its a different thing
17:27:24 <chlane> melsumner: bryan an i talked earlier made a list
17:27:33 <chlane> jamesn: meeting is morphing
17:27:46 <chlane> melsumner: need opinions for context
17:28:00 <chlane> jamesn: if there is an agenda add it to the meeting
17:28:27 <chlane> melsumner: weekly meeting to get a handle on what should be there and what we need opinions for
17:28:53 <chlane> spectranaut:this could still be reviewed by other requested reviewers
17:28:59 <chlane> deep dive on accname today
17:29:01 <chlane> 4pm
17:29:19 <chlane>  Zakim, next item
17:29:19 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:29:33 <chlane> updates from scott
17:31:01 <chlane> scotto: context, there was original PR, went through html aam's description computation, previous PR simplified it, more alignment, took out the rows in the middle that called out specific html features replaced by a single row
17:31:19 <chlane> svg aam, math aam ... will be included in the future
17:31:44 <chlane> spectranaut: mel bryan time to take a closer look
17:31:50 <chlane> melsumner: sounds good
17:31:54 <chlane>  Zakim, next item
17:31:54 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+ -- taken up [from
17:31:57 <Zakim> ... agendabot]
17:35:34 <chlane> jamesn: definitely review ask what was intended
17:36:09 <chlane>  Zakim, next item
17:36:09 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, chlane
17:36:46 <chlane> jamesn: looking at 6 blocking issues
17:36:59 <chlane> 1150, sarah put out an awesome gist
17:37:21 <chlane> jamesn: is on me to resolve unless anyone else wants it
17:37:34 <chlane> spectranaut: now is the time to take one from james
17:37:48 <chlane> jamesn: will get to it sometime
17:38:18 <chlane> 1159, inconsistent use of 'hidden' valerie won't be able to get to it until testing is over
17:39:18 <chlane> 1161 inconsitent use of owned by 1161
17:39:24 <chlane> jamesn: we discussed it
17:39:28 <chlane> 2 PRs
17:40:06 <chlane> sarahs work makes this irrelevant, by PR for the required owned elements
17:40:13 <chlane> to allow owned elements
17:40:31 <chlane> scotto: most issues will become irrelevant
17:40:38 <chlane> jamesn: they will be new issues
17:41:00 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1177#issuecomment-1302322317
17:41:13 <chlane> matt, close issue with no action?
17:41:33 <chlane> matt asked for specific list of three changes are what people are expecting in a Pr
17:41:38 <chlane> if we do one
17:42:13 <chlane> scotto: also not sure I understand why this needs to be changed
17:42:34 <chlane> that makes aria controls do what aria-expanded does
17:42:48 <chlane> jamesn: matt, follow up with wilco and close
17:43:00 <chlane> jamesn: give wilco a few weeks
17:43:30 <chlane> matt, downstream work on user agent side
17:43:37 <chlane> jamesn: benefits and costs
17:43:52 <chlane> jamesn: changes of what roles ... could break the web
17:43:58 <chlane> have path forward
17:44:03 <chlane> leave it as it was
17:44:14 <chlane> add editors notes
17:44:26 <chlane> about naming correctly
17:44:33 <chlane> work with devtools to flag
17:44:50 <chlane> that they are doing error correction on accessible naming
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17:44:59 <chlane> rather than following the spec
17:45:16 <chlane> cynthia, how do we get that done?
17:45:38 <chlane> matt, we do not want the computed acc name in devtools include error correction
17:45:56 <chlane> jamesn: it should be the same as exposed to a11y apis
17:46:08 <chlane> matt would he awesome
17:46:32 <chlane> cyn, happy to take that issue to devtools
17:46:42 <chlane> assign to cyn
17:46:50 <chlane> jamesn: or a new issue
17:47:01 <chlane> is there a better method
17:47:06 <chlane> cyn best way to start
17:47:42 <chlane> jamesn: hoping we are happy maintaining status quo with editor docs
17:48:00 <chlane> scotto: need to provide evidence that things dont actually break
17:48:18 <chlane> matt, james you are going to right text
17:48:35 <chlane> jamesn: yes, will make 1.3 is the same as 1.2
17:48:49 <chlane> 1824, presentation role conflict
17:49:12 <chlane> all prohibited states and properties are also global
17:49:18 <chlane> scotto: related topic
17:49:32 <chlane> scotto: touching on, image, aria-label
17:49:37 <chlane> or alt with text
17:49:46 <chlane> setting role none presentation
17:50:02 <chlane> should be treated as aria-hidden=true
17:50:28 <chlane> meaningful text with role=none, presentation pruned it from a11y tree
17:50:58 <chlane> is treating role=ima as aria-hidden=true the same correct?
17:51:08 <chlane> s/ima/img/g
17:51:40 <chlane> Matt_King: focused elements, it is error correction, mixed accessibility signal, do the least harm for user
17:51:45 <chlane> I see why it is related
17:51:56 <melsumner> I really don't think we should auto-correct author errors, can we explore a console error?
17:52:00 <chlane> Adam_Page: why role-none on the image?\
17:52:12 <chlane> jcraig: author error
17:52:21 <chlane> scotto: aria spec says it
17:52:31 <chlane> guidance says its the same thing
17:53:18 <chlane> siri: if you have aria label used on div and screen reader doesn't read it
17:53:23 <chlane> why on div element
17:53:29 <chlane> jamesn: authors must not
17:53:50 <chlane> scotto: author errors are the answere
17:54:03 <jcraig> q+ to ask about whether we should add a needs-automation-test tag on issues like these?
17:54:06 <chlane> Matt_King: feels like same issue conflicting a11y signals
17:54:28 <chlane> jamesn: if prohibited does that make it be global
17:54:41 <jcraig> s/author error/because authors. [will do it.]/
17:54:42 <chlane> it should still reverse presentational aspect
17:55:03 <chlane> matt, we could write it but we should have for clarification in the presentation role section
17:55:11 <chlane> none is already sooo complicated
17:55:40 <chlane> jamesn: section to explain prohibited states and properties, still global for conflict resolution
17:55:46 <chlane> matt include example
17:55:59 <chlane> jamesn: they would be bad examples
17:56:14 <chlane> jamesn: funky, should not be copied
17:56:26 <chlane> scotto: makes sense
17:56:45 <chlane> jamesn: conflict resolution is a mess
17:56:58 <chlane> matt, involve normative user agent statements
17:57:02 <melsumner> it would be great to have a good example of code in our spec, and then say "note here's a weird edge case" but make it look like "hey you should avoid this"
17:57:03 <chlane> scotto: will file issue
17:57:29 <chlane> scotto: negate author issues
17:58:00 <chlane> jcraig: added, a tag 'needs automated test'
17:58:18 <chlane> whatever we decide, we should file a separae issue, great one to automate
17:58:48 <chlane> jcraig: anything that relys on label or role computation can be tested
17:59:03 <chlane> jamesn: is there documentation on how to write those tests
17:59:21 <chlane> spectranaut: its the issue for writing tests in the accname repo
17:59:33 <chlane> jamesn: use webdriver
17:59:48 <chlane>  zakim, end meeting
17:59:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jamesn, chlane, pkra, Adam_Page, scotto, arigilmore, melsumner, Matt_King
17:59:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:59:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/03-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:53 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, chlane; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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