14:02:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:02:08 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-irc
14:02:22 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:02:52 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Michael_McCool, Sebastian_Kaebisch
14:03:42 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#November_2.2C_2022
14:05:47 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-td
14:05:59 <cris_> scribenick: cris_
14:06:32 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
14:06:43 <cris_> topic: minutes review
14:07:13 <cris_> ege: last week we discussed the binding templates topics
14:07:24 <cris_> ... ontology links
14:08:04 <cris_> ... then we discussed TD topics
14:08:07 <cris_> ... CR transition
14:08:32 <cris_> ... we decided to have another test fest in December
14:08:50 <cris_> ... we look at some deferred PR and propose closing issues
14:09:20 <cris_> ... no blockers and started the next step for CR transition
14:09:33 <cris_> ... does anyone have any change requests?
14:09:49 <cris_> ... hearing none; minutes are approved
14:10:00 <cris_> topic: Agenda
14:10:09 <cris_> ege: anyone wants to add something?
14:10:10 <cris_> ... ok
14:10:30 <cris_> topic: TD Binding Templates
14:10:43 <cris_> subtopic: PR on content type
14:11:07 <cris_> ege: I move the content of the pr to the appendix and in the text a put link a to it
14:11:25 <cris_> ... got feedback from Klaus
14:11:34 <cris_> ... headers need to be taken into account
14:11:40 <cris_> ... now it is ready for review
14:12:14 <dape> q+
14:12:15 <cris_> ... I'll do examples later
14:12:31 <cris_> daniel: I was wondering if it covers all cases
14:12:41 <cris_> ege: I hope there isn't
14:12:47 <cris_> ... do you have a case in mind?
14:13:12 <dape> ack dape
14:13:18 <cris_> s/there isn't/it is covering all the cases
14:13:24 <cris_> s/there isn't/it is covering all the cases/
14:14:20 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
14:14:23 <sebastian> q+
14:14:30 <kaz> i|last week|-> https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html Oct-26|
14:14:40 <cris_> sebastian: it is very helpful
14:14:51 <kaz> q?
14:14:53 <kaz> ack s
14:14:56 <cris_> ... I like the fact it is in the appendix
14:15:08 <cris_> cris: +1
14:15:24 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:15:30 <cris_> ege: any other concerns or questions?
14:15:31 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:15:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:15:36 <cris_> q+
14:15:37 <kaz> q+
14:16:18 <cris_> cris: so it is ready for merge?
14:16:20 <cris_> ege: yes
14:16:34 <cris_> s/it is/is it/
14:16:37 <cris_> ack c
14:16:58 <sebastian> q+
14:17:00 <kaz> ack k
14:17:05 <cris_> kaz: these changes should be discussed with WoT developers
14:17:09 <kaz> chair: Ege/Sebastian
14:17:18 <cris_> ege: it is very important to get feedback from developers
14:17:42 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:17:57 <cris_> ... we are planning office hours in the WoT CG dedicated to get this kind of feedbacks
14:18:02 <kaz> s/these changes/this kind of complicated description/
14:18:11 <cris_> sebastian: I agree with this aspect
14:18:25 <kaz> q?
14:18:27 <kaz> ack s
14:18:47 <cris_> ... regarding the structure of Binding Templates, too
14:19:02 <cris_> ege: we'll discuss it in a moment
14:20:19 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:20:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:20:25 <cris_> ... there are some bits of this hints in the Scripting API
14:20:58 <cris_> cris: +1
14:21:03 <cris_> ege: ok merging PR
14:21:31 <cris_> topic: Binding Templates
14:21:48 <cris_> subtopic: new charter proposal
14:22:01 <cris_> ege: I got already some initial feedback
14:22:08 <cris_> ... I fixed a bunch of issues
14:22:19 <kaz> i|I move the|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1564 wot-thing-description PR 1564 - explain contentType usage
14:22:26 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:22:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:22:28 <cris_> ... but I waiting for Klaus to further investigate some comments
14:22:44 <cris_> subtopic: PR 182
14:23:14 <cris_> ege: I fixed merge conflicts and merged as discussed last time
14:23:18 <kaz> i|I got already|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1035 wot PR 1035 - Create new charter proposal for binding templates|
14:23:19 <kaz> q+
14:23:42 <kaz> ack k
14:23:50 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/182
14:24:30 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
14:24:38 <cris_> subtopic: PR modbus design
14:24:52 <kaz> s/182/182 PR 182 - Ontology links/
14:25:29 <cris_> ege: cristiano provided fixes for the feedbacks that he got last time
14:25:40 <cris_> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/183
14:25:53 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
14:26:10 <cris_> ege: I looked for feedback inside siemens and they are ok with both URI proposals
14:26:22 <kaz> s/183/183 PR 183 - feat(modbus): move addres and quantity to URL components/
14:26:35 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:26:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:26:43 <cris_> ... URI base design is the currently understood as best practice
14:27:04 <cris_> ... if we merge this PR this means that we have to follow the same approach with the other bindings
14:28:30 <cris_> cris: I agree that this PR has implications greater than the modbus binding
14:28:39 <cris_> ege: I plan to put this rule in the core document
14:29:51 <cris_> topic: Issues
14:29:56 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/196
14:30:14 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 196
14:30:25 <cris_> ege: it is about document structure
14:31:06 <kaz> i|it is|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/196 Issue 196 - Adding binding template document structure figure|
14:31:16 <sebastian> q+
14:31:37 <kaz> q+
14:31:43 <kaz> ack s
14:31:55 <cris_> sebastian: it is helpful to have this overview, but we need to collect feedback from the Japanese community group
14:32:22 <cris_> ... is it really payload binding or serialization binding ?
14:32:31 <cris_> ege: it is about serialization
14:32:50 <cris_> ... maybe we can call it: payload serialization binding template
14:32:57 <cris_> sebastian: ok
14:33:26 <cris_> kaz: Is this a future proposal?
14:33:46 <cris_> ... because it split the Binding Templates document even more
14:34:13 <cris_> ege: it is not changing anything, it describe the current structure
14:34:22 <cris_> s/describe/describes/
14:34:43 <cris_> kaz: it is more important to describe the external relationships with the existing documents
14:35:02 <cris_> ... namely: Architecture, Discovery, Profiles, and Thing Description
14:35:08 <cris_> ege: I see
14:35:43 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-td
14:35:50 <cris_> ... we can extend the graph with that information
14:35:57 <cris_> ... we have the "use" relation
14:36:26 <kaz> s/existing document/existing specifications/
14:36:56 <kaz> q+
14:37:34 <cris_> kaz: the diagram might be useful for some of the people, but we can use text to describe the same relations.
14:38:01 <cris_> ege: ok but I think figure can still be added
14:38:33 <cris_> kaz: the diagram it is fine, but some developers might not sure what the relation "use" means
14:38:55 <cris_> ... that is why text would help to clear that out
14:39:31 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 187
14:39:31 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/187
14:40:24 <kaz> s/it is fine/itself might be fine/
14:40:35 <kaz> s/not sure/not be sure/
14:42:58 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
14:43:14 <kaz> s/187/187 Issue 187 - [Modbus] Usage of "zeroBasedAddressing" Parameter/
14:43:28 <cris_> cris: I'm not sure about why we introduced that parameter, I have to recall the history
14:43:55 <cris_> ... and then we can discuss how it relates to the new changes in the modbus pr
14:44:18 <dape> q+
14:44:24 <kaz> ack k
14:44:31 <cris_> subtopic: YYY
14:44:38 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/139
14:44:52 <cris_> s/YYY/Issue 139/
14:44:57 <Ege> q?
14:45:06 <cris_> ege: the issue is about how we can describe xml payloads in TD
14:45:15 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
14:45:30 <cris_> daniel: this conversion is coming from a spec that Taki and I worked on previously
14:45:36 <dape> https://www.w3.org/XML/EXI/docs/json/exi-for-json.html
14:45:37 <cris_> ... it is not a real spec sadly
14:45:42 <kaz> s/139/139 Issue 139 - XML template is more for green field devices/
14:46:14 <cris_> ... x-query did something similar
14:46:36 <cris_> ... there were some downsides
14:47:16 <cris_> q+
14:47:45 <cris_> ege: that should cover how to validate the payload with json schema, but not how to describe the payload with json schema
14:48:14 <cris_> daniel: it is a lossy conversion
14:48:29 <cris_> ... there are corner cases
14:48:56 <cris_> ack d
14:49:34 <cris_> ege: I think we can just state the corner cases and do a best effort approach
14:49:39 <cris_> daniel: that's right
14:55:13 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
14:56:31 <cris_> ege: main question is who is motivated to bring up a proposal?
14:56:35 <kaz> q+
14:56:36 <cris_> daniel: I can issue a proposal
14:56:38 <cris_> ack c
14:57:35 <cris_> cris: you can use the PR that I did as a template if you like
14:57:43 <sebastian>  q+
14:57:45 <Ege> q?
14:58:03 <cris_> kaz: I don't understand the need of the feature
14:58:11 <cris_> ... the issue is one year old
14:58:36 <cris_> ... we need to clarify the requirements
14:58:42 <kaz> ack k
14:59:06 <kaz> s/requirements/priority of the requirements/
14:59:11 <kaz> q+
14:59:24 <cris_> sebastian: sadly there was no time for working on this
14:59:25 <kaz> ack s
14:59:39 <cris_> ... we can take a specific example
14:59:50 <cris_> q+
15:00:45 <cris_> ... there are a couple of ISO and other formats to look at
15:00:56 <cris_> ... also ask feedback from people
15:01:23 <kaz> ack k
15:01:29 <cris_> kaz: yeah, keep in mind to importance to clarify the industry need for this feature
15:01:37 <kaz> s/need of/need for/
15:02:40 <kaz> s/kaz: yeah, keep in mind to importance to clarify the industry need for this feature/please continue to clarify that kind of industry need for all the features. not only for this feature but all the features, I mean./
15:03:09 <cris_> sebastian: also OPC-UA use xml
15:03:20 <cris_> ... among other formats
15:03:42 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 93
15:04:02 <cris_> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/93
15:04:06 <cris_> ege: propose closing
15:04:14 <cris_> ... any objections ?
15:04:23 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
15:04:35 <kaz> s/93/93 Issue 93 - Create RDF representations of CoAP and MQTT vocabulary/
15:04:40 <cris_> ... closed
15:04:50 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 194
15:05:02 <cris_> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/194
15:05:20 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
15:05:33 <cris_> ege: feedback from a dev, it request a better design of form operations
15:05:35 <kaz> s/194/194 Issue 194 - Improve the htv:methodName, cov:method usage/
15:06:01 <sebastian> q+
15:06:40 <cris_> cris: I would favor a better design of forms
15:06:45 <cris_> ack c
15:07:47 <cris_> sebastian: we avoided a fixed index position for inferencing features
15:08:40 <cris_> ... we had this arithmetic approach in the beginning
15:08:44 <cris_> ... but it was more complex
15:09:15 <cris_> cris: I agree
15:09:57 <cris_> topic: Thing Description
15:10:24 <cris_> topic: Agenda
15:10:44 <cris_> sebastian: plug fest, and closing issues
15:12:30 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
15:12:36 <dape> TOPIC: TD
15:13:24 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Add CR exit criteria in sotd section
15:13:37 <dape> SK: Swick asked for exit criteria
15:13:45 <dape> ... has been added in the meanwhile
15:14:02 <kaz> i/TOPIC: TD/scribenick: dape/
15:14:25 <kaz> i|Swick|-> https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/467 CR Transition Request for TD 1.1|
15:14:29 <dape> ...<Sebastian showing SOTD section>
15:14:47 <dape> SK: seems exit criteria is still missing in SOTD
15:14:59 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:15:02 <dape> MMC: I am double checking
15:15:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:15:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:15:29 <dape> SK: Ahh, only applied to publication folder and not main branch
15:16:11 <kaz> s|TD Binding Templates|TD and Binding Templates|
15:16:14 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1736/files
15:16:34 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
15:17:00 <McCool> q+
15:17:07 <kaz> s/files/files Files changed in PR 1736 - CR exit criteria/
15:17:16 <dape> SK: at risk criterias with no more than 2 implementations will be converted to informative statement
15:17:26 <kaz> present+ Michael_McCool
15:17:30 <dape> MMC: special clause
15:17:41 <dape> ... old vs new Ids
15:17:44 <kaz> present+ Erich_Barnstedt
15:18:15 <dape> ... remaining at risk items can be checked against old publication
15:19:19 <dape> SK: will create PR to add this exit criteria statement also to main branch
15:19:33 <dape> MMC: makes sense
15:19:51 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/467
15:20:08 <dape> SK: see transition request link above
15:20:58 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Missing Implementations
15:21:09 <dape> SK: Should look "at-risk" features
15:21:37 <dape> ... implementors might  try to overcome such features
15:21:47 <dape> ... PlugFest planned in December also
15:22:17 <dape> ... please check your implementations
15:22:24 <dape> ... 1,5 months left
15:22:28 <kaz> i|Should|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#sotd features at risk listed on the SoTD section of the TD 1.1 draft|
15:22:42 <kaz> q+
15:22:46 <kaz> ack s
15:22:46 <dape> SK: any news from PlugFest call
15:22:48 <kaz> ack m
15:22:56 <dape> MMC: will create readme under events
15:23:07 <dape> ... please have a look at it and check the goals
15:23:19 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/tree/main/events/2022.12.Online
15:23:28 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
15:23:33 <dape> ... resolve at risk items is one goal
15:23:52 <kaz> s/Online/Online README.md for the December Testfest/
15:23:56 <dape> ... some assertions seems to miss updates ... to fill in certain blanks
15:25:15 <dape> ... we seem to have 2 conflicting CSV files
15:25:47 <dape> ... XXXX in a row indicate no input given
15:26:41 <kaz> s/will create/have created a/
15:27:07 <dape> ... we need 2 passes for each feature
15:27:10 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/20a66ccef95be67e5848ed51a9656bed9f62e12a/testing/all-TD-implementations.csv Lagally's generated CSV to see which implementations cover which features
15:27:23 <dape> ... atrisk.csv lists all missing assertions
15:27:37 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/Impl-Xref/testing/atrisk.csv
15:27:52 <dape> ... Kaz suggested to look for volunteers
15:28:40 <dape> Kaz: I suggest all to join next TestFest call
15:29:00 <dape> SK: I will be not available next week
15:29:10 <kaz> s/call/call or at least sign up on the volunteers list ;)
15:29:14 <dape> MMC: I will be out-of-office for 2 weeks also
15:29:19 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:29:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:29:41 <kaz> q?
15:29:42 <kaz> ack k
15:29:43 <dape> EK: I can join the call and will try to push forward
15:30:01 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Check the status of open PRs
15:30:11 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pulls
15:30:44 <dape> SK: PR 1684
15:30:52 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1684
15:31:10 <dape> SK: ethieblin provided feedback
15:31:27 <dape> CA: she is mentioning other issues also
15:31:38 <dape> ... I guess we can tackle these in other PRs
15:31:56 <dape> ... this PR is about strings
15:32:15 <dape> ... SHACL has plain strings and language strings
15:32:32 <dape> ... render script has bugs too
15:33:02 <dape> ... 2nd comment in PR, having 2 dataTypes
15:33:22 <kaz> s/1684/1684 PR 1684 - Fix shacl, context and ontology/
15:33:28 <dape> ... need to fix this everywhere
15:33:47 <dape> ... we can say that title is human readable
15:34:16 <dape> ... in this PR I forced everything to be a language string
15:34:31 <dape> ... I used default language to EN
15:34:42 <dape> ... ethieblin mentioned this cannot be changed
15:35:01 <dape> ... I need to find a solution..  default language can be set by user
15:35:40 <dape> ... will ask ethieblin for clarifications
15:35:44 <dape> ... other point
15:36:16 <dape> ... hasSecurityConfiguration changed @type to string
15:36:33 <dape> ... ethieblin makes the point it should remain @id
15:37:01 <kaz> q+
15:37:17 <dape> ... suggest to fix it later, in another PR
15:37:30 <dape> SK: what would be the solution?
15:37:41 <dape> CA: using @id is correct
15:38:08 <dape> MMC: I think it is a string, not an URI
15:38:37 <dape> ... we could have a conversion process
15:39:25 <dape> CA: Mhh, I think we have  a problem here
15:39:43 <dape> ... security definitions are translated to URIs
15:39:59 <dape> MMC: string is supposed to be unique
15:40:07 <dape> ... can use pre-processor
15:40:36 <dape> CA: we need to retain the id in the RDF process
15:41:17 <dape> SK: Does this mean ethieblin is not correct?
15:41:42 <dape> CA: Yes and no... but there are misalignments
15:43:02 <dape> Kaz: PR 1684 is identified as editorial change
15:43:16 <dape> ... doesn't it impact implementations ?
15:43:39 <dape> ... is it a bug fix?
15:43:48 <dape> ... if so we should fix NOW
15:44:08 <dape> SK: This PR does not have impact on tables
15:44:20 <dape> Kaz: Please check tables ... I see changes
15:44:35 <dape> CA: I do not expect changes... but yes there are changes
15:44:54 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/1684/6e2d51a...relu91:6e6df6e.html#thing diff
15:45:01 <dape> ... string to langString
15:45:15 <dape> SK: That's a problem.. we cannot change that now
15:45:34 <kaz> s|-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/1684/6e2d51a...relu91:6e6df6e.html#thing diff||
15:45:41 <dape> CA: I think we can leave it as it was... I will revert this change
15:45:44 <kaz> i|I do not|-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/1684/6e2d51a...relu91:6e6df6e.html#thing diff|
15:45:49 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:45:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:46:08 <dape> SK: Yes, should show up as string again
15:46:24 <dape> CA: Okay, will do and it will be an editorial change again
15:47:37 <dape> CA: there was one more issue
15:47:51 <dape> ... hasRelationType used to be ObjectProperty
15:48:25 <dape> ... seems we just need strings.. not always URIs
15:49:34 <dape> SK: Suggest to stick to string to not introduce changes
15:49:43 <dape> ... version 1.0 used string also
15:50:02 <dape> CA: Okay, that leave it as it is
15:50:26 <dape> s/that leave/let's leave
15:51:07 <dape> ... will also check examples... ethieblin pointed at some examples
15:52:45 <dape> CA: BTW, added GitHub action scripts
15:52:52 <dape> ... like validation
15:52:57 <dape> ... I added some tests
15:53:20 <dape> ... people can provide more valid TDs
15:53:52 <dape> EK: Did you move TM models
15:53:54 <dape> CA: Yes
15:54:17 <dape> SK: Cool
15:54:47 <dape> ... GitHub actions does what exactly?
15:55:20 <dape> CA: It takes TDs and translates it and checks RDF
15:55:29 <dape> ... it also does SHACL validation
15:55:45 <dape> ... but it is very basic since we just have some simple examples
15:56:11 <dape> SK: Would be nice to test all TDs from PlugFests
15:56:22 <dape> CA: Yes, but it would be a big impact ..
15:56:44 <Ege> https://github.com/thingweb/thingweb-playground/tree/master/packages/core/examples/tds/valid
15:56:48 <dape> EK: for TD 1.0 we have TDs that cover all features
15:57:05 <dape> ... not covering all features of 1.1 yet
15:57:33 <dape> q?
15:57:49 <dape> EK: We also have examples for TMs
15:58:30 <dape> CA: Can we create a script that merges all TDs into one BIG TD
15:58:39 <dape> ... and test this BIG TD ?
15:58:48 <dape> EK: security might cause issues
15:59:14 <dape> SK: PR looks good... some more changes needed ... recorded in comments
15:59:40 <dape> CA: I will work  on it
16:00:06 <dape> SK: Suggest to check next week again.. or in 2 weeks
16:00:24 <kaz> q?
16:00:26 <kaz> ack k
16:00:37 <dape> ... other PRs are not urgent and we should wait till CR is published
16:01:49 <dape> SK: Homework for everyone... added "propose closing" labels to some issues
16:01:53 <dape> ... please have a look
16:02:38 <dape> [adjourned]
16:02:46 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:24:12 <kaz> s/topic: TD//
16:24:20 <kaz> s/topic: Agenda//
16:24:22 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:24:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
18:06:40 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot-td
18:22:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot-td