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14:57:05 <tzviya> zakim, start meeting
14:57:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:57:06 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:57:12 <tzviya> chair: Tzviya
14:57:20 <tzviya> date: 2022-10-28
14:58:24 <ivan> present+
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14:59:13 <AvneeshSingh> present+
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15:01:15 <Ralph> present+
15:02:45 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2022Oct/0005.html
15:03:25 <Ralph> present+ George, Wolfgang
15:03:37 <GeorgeK> present+
15:03:40 <Ralph> present+ Liisa
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15:05:17 <liisamk> present+
15:05:26 <wolfgang> present+
15:06:01 <tzviya> present+
15:08:17 <Ralph> Ralph: do we have a place to continue the conversation asynchronously on how to organize the possible work ?
15:08:28 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg
15:08:36 <Ralph> Ivan: identify what needs more incubation
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15:08:59 <Ralph> Tzviya: let's use the CG repo ^^ and create issues there
15:09:11 <wolfgang> q+
15:09:18 <Ralph> Wolfgang: I'll make a label to identify potential charter issues
15:09:20 <tzviya> ack wo
15:10:05 <Ralph> Wolfgang: in terms of the size of a topic, if you look at what may be in W3C and want to write a note does that need a group charter?
15:10:35 <Ralph> ... for a precise issue in the wide realm of Publishing, where is the threshold to decide if you make it a charter?
15:10:44 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:12:13 <Ralph> Ralph: I don't think we can answer that in a general way
15:12:14 <GeorgeK> q+
15:12:21 <Ralph> ... have to consider it issue-by-issue
15:12:27 <tzviya> ack g
15:12:34 <Ralph> Tzviya: and we shouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about that at this point
15:12:54 <Ralph> George: is the question of standardizing on a manifest a way of approaching publishing as HTML ?
15:13:17 <Ralph> ... if we have a standard for manifest that has some required elements, such as ToC, is that a poor-man's way of getting into web publications?
15:13:24 <Ralph> Tzviya: manifest already exists but yes, it is
15:13:42 <Ralph> present+ BillK
15:14:17 <Ralph> Tzivya: I recently commented about concern that higher ed seems to be stepping away from EPUB
15:14:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:15:01 <Ralph> ... my pitch was to look at a mechanism to have a unified mapping to EPUB
15:15:35 <Ralph> George: do you see higher ed moving to course development as what is driving the move away from EPUB?
15:15:48 <Ralph> Tzviya: courses and books have been the same
15:15:59 <Ralph> ... now the book is being delivered in pieces in a more integrated approach
15:16:20 <Ralph> ... e.g. a piece of a calculus book with the student assessments delivered as part of that, all on-line
15:16:42 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:16:43 <Ralph> ... it's not a "book" per se but it still needs to be known as "the calculus course"
15:16:47 <Ralph> ... that's where the mapping comes in
15:17:06 <Ralph> Bill: +1; I work with a lot of higher ed clients right now
15:17:15 <tzviya> s/at a mechanism to have a unified mapping to EPUB/at a manifest for the course and at a mechanism to have a unified mapping to EPUB
15:17:20 <Ralph> ... on manifest and publishing as HTML, the same can be said about scholarly publishing
15:17:48 <Ralph> ... when I point people, especially technical people, at the publishing manifest they say it's exactly what they want
15:18:26 <Ralph> ... we were asked exactly this question recently by scientific journal publishers; the answer is that accessible HTML is preferred
15:18:31 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:18:36 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
15:18:42 <Ralph> ... I think the publication manifest will be really useful
15:18:57 <Ralph> Avneesh: I am also a fan of the publication manifest
15:19:05 <Ralph> ... the wall we hit last time is lack of traction
15:19:21 <Ralph> ... can we determine whether those who like it are ready to drive it forward?
15:19:30 <Ralph> Tzviya: we know some are already using it
15:19:45 <Ralph> ... it's not exactly RS implementations
15:19:45 <ivan> q+
15:19:53 <Ralph> ... we have to figure out what implementation tests would be
15:19:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:19:59 <Ralph> ... more driven by publishers than RSs
15:20:11 <Ralph> ... our step now is to log this as an issue in the CG and see use cases
15:20:22 <liisamk> q+
15:20:28 <tzviya> ack iv
15:20:34 <Ralph> ... we're not asking for magic from the manifest; it's a list of stuff
15:20:53 <Ralph> Ivan: for those who use it, what do they use it for?
15:21:08 <Ralph> Tzviya: some use it in their internal courseware systems
15:21:17 <Ralph> ... it can have additional metadata
15:21:36 <Ralph> ... the pubmanifest can have audiobook-specific info
15:21:39 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:21:54 <Ralph> ... I don't think it would be a lot of work to apply it in higher ed
15:22:01 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:22:12 <Ralph> Bill: consider adding JSON to be able to add more semantics
15:22:37 <Ralph> Liisa: on traction, there was concern that in looking at the future of EPUB people were worried about their backlists
15:22:48 <Ralph> ... we're expanding what people can do with publications
15:23:05 <Ralph> ... there are a lot of possibilities
15:23:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> My point was that it IS JSON and the use of JSON-LD is of high interest.
15:23:19 <Ralph> ... keep the use case discussion wide but also focus on what is needed in some of the education spaces
15:23:30 <Ralph> s/adding JSON/using JSON-LD
15:24:37 <Ralph> s/more semantics/more semantics; particularly facilitating use of schema.org
15:25:04 <Ralph> Wolfgang: happy to create the issue with Tzviya's assistance
15:25:12 <GeorgeK> q+
15:25:25 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'll find some time to talk next week
15:25:39 <Ralph> Liisa: I'd like to be involved; I need help getting the task force off the ground
15:25:44 <tzviya> ack ge
15:26:02 <Ralph> George: this is great; there are some nuances that shouldn't be missed
15:26:15 <Ralph> ... the notion of a "course" as opposed to a "publication" resonates with me
15:26:48 <Ralph> ... it seems like this could include "course" in its scope; we might be able to get a lot more participation if we were talking about course structure and allowing tests to be included
15:26:56 <wolfgang> q+
15:27:01 <tzviya> ack wol
15:27:03 <Ralph> Tzviya: yes, but we're pointing to material not including it
15:27:13 <Ralph> Wolfgang: it's documentation
15:27:35 <Ralph> ... you can use pubmanifest for any documentation; user documentation for a technical gadget
15:27:47 <Ralph> ... it's not restricted to types of publications
15:28:02 <Ralph> subtopic: Counterfeit TF
15:28:10 <Ralph> Tzviya: we'll help Liisa set this up
15:28:15 <Ralph> subtopic: Archiving and versioning
15:28:22 <Ralph> Tzviya: we talked about this last time
15:28:41 <Ralph> ... is this an area we want to try to explore? it touches a lot of W3C
15:28:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:28:53 <Ralph> Ivan: we need lots of external expertise on this
15:29:00 <Ralph> ... we don't have it now
15:29:11 <Ralph> Tzviya: there's a NISO proposal for archiving
15:29:16 <liisamk> q+
15:29:28 <tzviya> s/archiving/EPUB archiving
15:29:28 <Ralph> Ivan: this shouldn't be specific to EPUB; it's about Web archiving
15:29:44 <Ralph> Tzviya: I wish NISO had consulted with us
15:29:56 <Ralph> Ivan: yes, but doing only EPUB archiving is a mistake
15:30:04 <Ralph> ... we need to archive the software as well
15:30:36 <tzviya> ack bi
15:31:41 <Ralph> Bill: I'm hoping to get participation from "Big Ten Academic Alliance" soon
15:31:48 <Ralph> ... they're much larger than ten
15:31:59 <Ralph> ... and have the expertise
15:32:14 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:32:27 <Ralph> Tzviya: it's a huge area; we need to consider whether we want to start touching it
15:32:41 <Ralph> Liisa: there's also the versioning question; archiving and versioning are related but separate
15:32:53 <Ralph> ... we don't even know the customers' preferences on getting updates
15:33:00 <Ralph> ... and how many versions do we archive?
15:33:32 <Ralph> ... this is a huge problem for meeting accessibility if RSs aren't getting updates to users or only doing it in an adhoc manner
15:33:58 <Ralph> ... I've been chasing some issue with updates not getting to readers
15:34:17 <Ralph> Tzviya: this relates to serialization as well; they could be delta releases to a publication
15:34:46 <Ralph> ... this gets back to addressibility; one reason RSs might not issue updates is because it might mess up links
15:35:22 <Ralph> ... we know that RSs are protective of addressibility; it seems more likely that working on an approach to updates including serialization and perhaps versioning through metadata
15:35:29 <Ralph> ... maybe those are the two best approaches
15:35:41 <Ralph> ... "versioning in a way that RSs will support"
15:35:56 <Ralph> ... "serialization", where the issue right now has to do with potential changes to annotations
15:36:15 <liisamk> q+
15:36:21 <Ralph> ... we might not be able to change this unless we get to the heart of addressibility
15:36:21 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:36:37 <Ralph> Liisa: I can take these back to conversations in the BG to see if there's business interest in trying to solve any of this
15:36:45 <Ralph> Tzviya: serialization is huge in the manga world
15:37:00 <Ralph> Liisa: that's part of what Deihei and I were hoping to get to in November
15:37:14 <Ralph> ... the manga world is doing more serialization as a way to combat piracy
15:37:41 <Ralph> Ivan: this is publishing a book chapter by chapter, not at once?
15:38:01 <Ralph> Liisa: yes, chapter by chapter and maybe at the end a final publication
15:38:09 <Ralph> ... and possibly insert at any time
15:38:29 <Ralph> ... there are several business models but the technology has to be there to support
15:38:40 <Ralph> Tzviya: in scholarly publishing there's a notion of early view
15:39:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:39:11 <Ralph> ... COVID had a big impact on this; people wanted access to the early view
15:39:19 <Ralph> ... this became an overnight change
15:39:47 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:39:50 <Ralph> ... a lot of technology publishers have started to give access to books as they're being written because technology changes so quickly
15:39:55 <Ralph> ... they have different names for this
15:40:21 <Ralph> Bill: E-life will be publishing early view, an open peer review, and leave it to the author to decide whether to revise or leave as-is
15:40:29 <Ralph> ... if the author revises they publish an update
15:40:41 <Ralph> ... they no longer will make the decision for the author; that's pretty interesting
15:41:05 <Ralph> Tzviya: do we want to document this as an addressibilty need, a serialization need, or a versioning need?
15:41:08 <Ralph> ... or all three
15:41:16 <Ralph> Liisa: start with the business case: serialization
15:41:29 <Ralph> ... if you start with addressibility people will back off
15:41:38 <Ralph> ... I'll start that issue in GH
15:42:05 <Ralph> Tzviya: so we're opening manifest, versioning, and serialization
15:42:21 <Ralph> George: explain addressibility more?
15:42:34 <Ralph> Tzviya: how you point into something
15:42:53 <Ralph> Liisa: many of the RSs say they can't update files because that will change bookmarks and annotations
15:43:08 <Ralph> ... we need addressibility to be reliable and for everyone to implement it conssistently
15:43:22 <Ralph> George: thanks; I understand
15:43:28 <wolfgang> s/conssistently/consistently/
15:43:49 <Ralph> Tzviya: from the Salon notes there is interest in metadata, even user metadata
15:44:18 <AvneeshSingh> +1 Ivan
15:44:26 <Ralph> Ivan: chapter-level metadata is not rocket science; we'd want to know the business interest and what exactly they expect
15:44:34 <Ralph> Tzviya: who is hearing real demand?
15:44:52 <Ralph> [silence]
15:45:04 <Ralph> subtopic: Tools
15:45:18 <Ralph> Tzviya: we know there is great need but that's not something we can do in W3C
15:45:27 <Ralph> subtopic: Annotations, Bookmarks, Notes
15:45:38 <Ralph> Tzviya: the W3C Annotation spec is broad and robust
15:45:48 <Ralph> ... but other than Hypothesis there's not a lot of uptake
15:46:05 <Ralph> ... what are your perceptions of where the RS market is?
15:46:15 <Ralph> ... my impression is that each wants to do its own thing
15:46:35 <GeorgeK> q+
15:46:42 <liisamk> q+
15:46:44 <Ralph> ... there should be interest in interoperability but this seems to be a case where the retailers want to keep their own
15:47:17 <Ralph> Ivan: the architecture of web annotations is to set up servers
15:47:41 <Ralph> ... Hypothesis sort-of does this but I don't think they have disclosed how to install their server elsewhere
15:48:17 <Ralph> ... I have the impression that not only are RSs not interested but they are actively opposed as this is one of the ways they complete
15:48:35 <tzviya> ack ge
15:48:42 <Ralph> ... looking at side loading, one of the features I use to distinguish is how good each annotation system is
15:48:53 <Ralph> George: accessibility of annotation systems is a real problem
15:49:19 <Ralph> ... companies implementing annotations are tortured by a11y
15:49:42 <Ralph> ... beyond a11y is usability; there's the potential of so much complexity being added to the document that it becomes impossible to read
15:49:58 <Ralph> ... e.g. adding lots of footnotes
15:50:30 <Ralph> ... I don't think the existing RSs want to use their annotation systems to keep people in a walled garden; I think they're struggling with how to implement a11y
15:50:47 <tzviya> ack li
15:50:55 <Ralph> Ivan: and the W3C Web Annotation Recommendation is at the protocol level, not the usability level
15:51:04 <Ralph> Liisa: we have heard there are business cases for selling annotations
15:51:21 <Ralph> ... this is something people would be interested in doing if there is a way to do it without putting out another edition
15:51:35 <Ralph> ... avoiding the problem of having multiple versions in the market
15:51:58 <Ralph> ... selling annotations as a separate add-on would be of more interest
15:52:12 <Ralph> Ivan: and there is the addressibility issue right there
15:53:01 <Ralph> Tzviya: there's a book by Zadie Smith with 50 footnotes in the introduction
15:53:15 <Ralph> ... a lot of people will be interested in reading the commentary on a translation
15:53:35 <Ralph> Liisa: you see this in book club editions; they want to put their notes throughout
15:54:18 <Ralph> ... there are two books on the market with Oprah Winfrey commentary
15:54:32 <Ralph> Tzviya: and we hear about the annotated teachers' editions
15:54:46 <Ralph> ... saleable annotations could be a good use case to bring up
15:54:56 <Ralph> ... we have the specification; it's about getting implementation uptake
15:55:12 <Ralph> ... I'll add this to my list of things to document
15:55:25 <Ralph> Tzviya: and there are areas outside of publishing
15:55:27 <Ralph> ... rights
15:55:30 <Ralph> ... end-user participation
15:55:43 <Ralph> ... areas to collaborate within W3C; annotations, addressibility
15:56:04 <Ralph> ... a11y is an example of getting publishing people more integrated into other parts of W3C
15:56:31 <Ralph> topic: Next meeting?
15:56:42 <Ralph> George: will we meet on the 11th?
15:57:03 <Ralph> Tzviya: we have it on the calendar
15:57:43 <Ralph> ... I'll be in touch about the agenda
15:57:47 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:57:52 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
15:57:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, AvneeshSingh, Ralph, George, Wolfgang, GeorgeK, Liisa, liisamk, tzviya, BillK
15:57:54 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:57:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/28-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
15:57:57 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:58:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc