IRC log of coga on 2022-10-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
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RRSAgent, make logs public
09:29:53 [trackbot]
Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
09:29:53 [trackbot]
Date: 27 October 2022
09:30:11 [Lisa]
agenda+ subgroups
09:31:03 [Lisa]
agenda+ Updates with EO and any other urgent business , collaborative tools <>
09:32:56 [Lisa]
agenda+ Reminder send out survey for research papers see
09:36:13 [Lisa]
agenda+ Research collaborations (structure and research sub groups) See actions at AND draft of reserch plan at
09:38:19 [Lisa]
agenda+ Google or pther doing interviews on stucture, and sharing the feedback with us . see
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trackbot, start meeting
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RRSAgent, make logs public
13:40:28 [trackbot]
Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:40:28 [trackbot]
Date: 27 October 2022
13:41:14 [Lisa]
13:41:18 [Lisa]
13:41:30 [Lisa]
13:41:56 [Lisa]
13:51:30 [Roy]
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RRSAgent, publish minutes
13:52:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Lisa
14:00:16 [ShawnT]
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14:01:31 [Lisa]
regrets: Jenny, Julie
14:01:47 [Rain]
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14:01:51 [Rain]
14:02:37 [Lisa]
14:03:08 [Lisa]
zakim, next item
14:03:09 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- scribe sign up -- taken up [from Lisa]
14:04:00 [kirkwood]
14:05:12 [Lisa]
no qurom
14:05:32 [Kiki]
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14:06:45 [Rain]
scribe: Rain
14:06:55 [Rain]
zakim, take up item 1
14:06:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- scribe sign up -- taken up [from Lisa]
14:07:25 [Rain]
Lisa: not sure that we have quorum, determining if we are continuing to review collaborative tools document
14:07:36 [Rain]
Rachael: difficult to work on if we don't have it ported over to the document. yet
14:07:56 [Rain]
Lisa: APA suggested we make a google doc with a copy of their specifications and then use suggest mode to add to and comment on it
14:08:02 [Rain]
... so that is the next step
14:08:47 [Rain]
... Rachael had offered to move the document, is that doable?
14:08:55 [Rain]
Rachael: yes, but not before this meeting is finished
14:08:59 [Lisa]
we have quourm
14:09:12 [Rain]
Lisa: update on who we have on the call, now we do have quorum and can continue
14:09:19 [Lisa]
14:09:27 [Lisa]
zakim, next item
14:09:27 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- task requests and actions <> -- taken up [from Lisa]
14:10:17 [Rain]
Lisa: mental health summary, had an Indian time friendly meeting and will be having another
14:10:51 [Lisa]
14:11:43 [Rain]
... there is another special meeting on Nov. 7 so if anyone wants it changed so that they can attend, let Lisa or Rashmi know
14:12:00 [Rain]
... Jan has sent in a few more papers to review, and are way over the KPI and have 2 things that are new patterns that are very interesting
14:12:11 [Rain]
... related to impulse control and decision making
14:12:45 [Rain]
... a lot of suggested changes for existing patterns as well
14:13:05 [Rain]
... really shows the huge overlap between cognitive and mental health
14:13:17 [Lisa]
scribe+ lisa
14:13:45 [Lisa]
rain: kiki is working on the quant study, and we reviewed it and are looking for themes
14:14:00 [Lisa]
2 mockups and great feedback
14:14:26 [Lisa]
next step mockups and adding stucture to the study
14:14:38 [Lisa]
concern that they are two big to see
14:14:48 [Lisa]
might need to make it a real document
14:14:59 [Lisa]
before we evaluate
14:15:08 [Lisa]
but a lot going on at work
14:15:28 [Lisa]
should have progress by the 17th
14:16:03 [Rain]
Lisa: when do you think we are going to have stable structure suggestions for clear language and access to help?
14:16:23 [Rain]
Rachael: have broken out the conformance models, worked together to break them out, evaluate them, and put them back together in mays that work
14:16:34 [Rain]
... will then identify the first two to explore over the next 3-4 weeks
14:16:51 [Rain]
... then we will have 1-2 models by january timeframe to have clear language see how they can fit into them
14:17:10 [Rain]
Lisa: research plan, have a couple of agenda items
14:17:25 [Lisa]
draft plan
14:17:31 [Rain]
... two documents that may be useful that we'd like people to review
14:17:55 [Rain]
... draft plan, also thinking about how research is done within w3c, which is by members and the results get vetted
14:17:58 [Poornima]
14:18:06 [Lisa]
14:18:19 [Rain]
... also have a survey on the research papers and need TF members to share that survey out (link above)
14:18:55 [Rain]
... surprising how many people want it all updated and updated as a w3c note
14:19:07 [Rain]
... we cannot do that amount of work, and currently only a sample size of 6
14:19:22 [Rain]
... but really do need to assimilate it better
14:19:31 [Rain]
... repeating ask to have people send out the survey
14:19:58 [Rain]
... everyone please disseminate it at least one place
14:20:16 [Rachael]
14:20:38 [Rain]
ack Rachael
14:20:38 [Lisa]
ack r
14:20:53 [Rain]
Rachael: is it okay if we fill it out if we are using it outside of W3C?
14:21:24 [Rain]
Lisa: yes, if using it in your organization
14:21:25 [kirkwood]
I definitely feel it should, agreed
14:22:12 [Lisa]
thanks John
14:22:56 [Rain]
Rain: images subgroup meeting after Nov. 4 should have an image to show for coga tf review
14:23:31 [Rain]
put examples here:
14:24:09 [Rain]
Lisa: in terms of requests from other groups
14:24:21 [Rain]
... have collaborative tools request, need the document in order to move forward and so will do this by email
14:24:30 [Rain]
... spoke with Janina about verifiable credentials
14:25:12 [Rain]
... we've submitted our feedback to EO
14:25:40 [Lisa]
zakim, next item
14:25:40 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- subgroups -- taken up [from Lisa]
14:25:43 [Rain]
From Julie: "EO update: I submitted all the GitHub issues in time to meet EO's deadline last Friday. I checked GitHub this morning and so far EO have sent any follow-up questions."
14:25:51 [Lisa]
zakim, close item 3
14:25:51 [Zakim]
agendum 3, subgroups, closed
14:25:52 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:25:52 [Zakim]
4. Updates with EO and any other urgent business , collaborative tools <>
14:25:52 [Zakim]
... [from Lisa]
14:25:59 [Lisa]
zakim, close item 4
14:25:59 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Updates with EO and any other urgent business , collaborative tools
14:26:01 [Zakim]
... <>, closed
14:26:01 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:26:01 [Zakim]
5. Reminder send out survey for research papers see [from Lisa]
14:26:05 [kirkwood]
Julie’s EO update: EO update: I submitted all the GitHub issues in time to meet EO's deadline last Friday. I checked GitHub this morning and so far EO have sent any follow-up questions.
14:26:11 [Lisa]
zakim, close item 5
14:26:11 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Reminder send out survey for research papers see, closed
14:26:14 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:26:14 [Zakim]
6. Research collaborations (structure and research sub groups) See actions at
14:26:14 [Zakim]
... AND draft of reserch plan at
14:26:14 [Zakim]
... [from Lisa]
14:28:18 [kirkwood]
no objection
14:28:19 [Rain]
Lisa: research process within W3C is that members do this work, and then pass on the results to the task forces/working groups
14:28:39 [Rain]
... this matches what Kiki and Rain proposed to have Google do for the structure qualitative research
14:29:13 [Rachael]
14:29:17 [Lisa]
any objection to google doing the qualitative study
14:29:22 [Rain]
ack Rachael
14:29:24 [Lisa]
ack r
14:30:03 [Rain]
Rachael: confirming that if Google does this we will have an IRB of some sort?
14:30:15 [Rain]
Kiki: it's different, goes through legal, but not an academic IRB
14:30:24 [Rain]
Rachael: do you have checks on human safety?
14:30:27 [Rain]
Kiki: yes
14:30:41 [Rain]
Rachael: okay
14:30:43 [Rachael]
Perfect. Thank you for being willing to take on this reasearch.
14:30:54 [Lisa]
any objections
14:31:08 [Lisa]
no objections (but we ask shawn
14:31:27 [Rain]
Lisa: thank you to the Google reps for helping with this
14:31:37 [Lisa]
14:31:55 [Rain]
Lisa: need to revisit recruiting
14:33:45 [Rain]
... looking to see if researchers are willing to pass on literary reviews and other research work on to us
14:33:53 [Rain]
... may find that most of our topics are covered in other people's work
14:35:51 [Poornima]
14:36:36 [Rain]
kirkwood: the Understood folks are definitely good people to connect with for research
14:36:55 [Rain]
Poornima: will go through the document and see what can be done
14:37:26 [Rain]
... Enable India is a possibility
14:38:04 [kirkwood]
Think they would at least know who… regarding the org Understood.
14:39:12 [kirkwood]
What is the specific ask in one sentence?
14:40:08 [Rain]
kirkwood: confirming that literary reviews can be submitted
14:40:15 [Rain]
Lisa: yes, absolutely
14:40:20 [Lisa]
ack next
14:40:31 [kirkwood]
Are there any literary reviews you can share with COGA? seems like the ask to me
14:41:58 [kirkwood]
John Rochford may be good for this as well
14:43:20 [Rain]
Rain updated on who the researchers are that she's talking with
14:43:28 [Rain]
+1 to John Rochford
14:44:02 [Rachael]
14:44:14 [Lisa]
ack next
14:45:11 [kirkwood]
14:45:12 [Rain]
Rachael: maybe if we have a more integrated relationship with research centers we can also create situations where we benefit from student work and they benefit from a more public stage for their work?
14:45:20 [Rain]
... something to pursue in January
14:45:32 [Rain]
... may be useful before January to get a list of organizations and points of contact
14:47:50 [Rain]
Lisa: next step is to speak with Michael Cooper about academic collaborations
14:48:01 [Rachael]
14:48:14 [Lisa]
ack next
14:48:22 [Lisa]
zakim, next item
14:48:22 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- Research collaborations (structure and research sub groups) See actions at
14:48:24 [Zakim]
... AND draft of reserch plan at
14:48:24 [Zakim]
... -- taken up [from Lisa]
14:48:32 [Lisa]
zakim, next item
14:48:32 [Zakim]
agendum 6 was just opened, Lisa
14:48:45 [Lisa]
zakim, close item 6
14:48:45 [Zakim]
agendum 6, Research collaborations (structure and research sub groups) See actions at
14:48:47 [Rachael]
Maybe we could start a google doc of possible organizations that WAI might partner with. Good conversation for the Wednesday WAI call
14:48:48 [Zakim]
... AND draft of reserch plan at
14:48:48 [Zakim]
..., closed
14:48:48 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:48:48 [Zakim]
7. Google or pther doing interviews on stucture, and sharing the feedback with us . see [from
14:48:51 [Zakim]
... Lisa]
14:49:18 [Lisa]
zakim, next item
14:49:18 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- Google or pther doing interviews on stucture, and sharing the feedback with us . see
14:49:20 [Zakim]
... -- taken up [from Lisa]
14:49:40 [Lisa]
14:50:23 [Rain]
Lisa: year one is over in March, deadline for meeting our KPIs
14:50:31 [Rain]
... are we going to meet that deadline?
14:50:56 [Rain]
... need to start looking to see what we have to do to meet these KPIs
14:51:18 [Rain]
... Mental health, think we will have literary review and have a draft for new patterns, but not for all the changes
14:51:50 [Rain]
... Community feedback, how is that?
14:52:23 [Rain]
Kiki: have done pieces, are working to get a form together to gather feedback and will use it to reach out to our communities to get feedback on what feels difficult when navigating the web
14:52:34 [Rain]
... should be solidified by next meeting and will go for broader reach
14:52:43 [Rain]
... have put together feedback from the community group itself
14:53:21 [Rain]
Lisa: next step is to find a way to pull all that feedback together so that we can consider it for the next version
14:53:42 [Rain]
Lisa: Research group - have a draft and got the survey out
14:53:50 [Rain]
... need more people to send it out
14:54:02 [Rain]
... have a plan but haven't gone through all the issues or identified which issue papers need updates
14:54:18 [Rain]
... quite a lot to do there still
14:54:29 [Rain]
... stage 2 is after march
14:54:49 [Rain]
Images: working on drafts
14:55:07 [Rain]
Test process: exploratory draft by March will be difficult, will put on agenda for next week
14:55:47 [Rain]
Lisa: inviting Kiki to use our group, as well, for community feedback
14:55:54 [Rain]
... can also ask AG to send it out
14:56:30 [Poornima]
* Lisa, I can scribe for Nov 10, can you pls update on the scribe list? I have to drop now for my next meeting.
14:56:42 [kirkwood]
ERG’s - Employee Resource Groups may be good within orgs
14:56:54 [Poornima]
Thanks everyone and have a great weekend!
14:57:53 [Rain]
Taking a 5 minute break then moving onto subgroup meetings
15:00:18 [ShawnT]
15:01:59 [Lisa]
RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:01:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Lisa
15:05:55 [Lisa]
topic, reserch and stucture subgroups
15:06:28 [Lisa]
topic: research and structure subgroups
15:07:36 [Rain]
15:07:51 [Lisa]
ack next
15:08:24 [Lisa]
any objections to google doing the reserch on stucture (asking shawn)
15:08:35 [Lisa]
shawn: no objections
15:08:57 [Rain]
Shawn: does not have an objection to Kiki and Rain scheduling study through Google infra
15:09:18 [Rain]
Kiki: Rain and Kiki to discuss and schedule the study
15:09:30 [Lisa]
agenda: what do we need to do for the study?
15:10:34 [Lisa]
rain: re mock up - we have two (from rain and lisa) i want to fill them in a bit and update them
15:11:31 [Lisa]
lisa: actualy cut and paist the doc may be easier
15:12:30 [Lisa]
rain: yes
15:13:06 [Lisa]
we can have a wirking call
15:13:16 [ShawnT]
I'm good with CSS or HTML
15:13:24 [Lisa]
15:13:37 [ShawnT]
and Github
15:14:12 [Lisa]
we also identified the theme in the survey. will update next week
15:14:45 [Lisa]
agenda+ kpi reviews for reserch group
15:15:07 [Lisa]
agenda+ make doc of resech orgnizations of colaberations
15:16:24 [Rain]
Discussion on themes in responses to survey on Making Content Usable
15:16:29 [Lisa]
shawn: very long, but that can be good. to long to just read, people find things findable
15:16:37 [Rain]
Shawn: length was both a negative and a positive, control f was helpful
15:16:39 [Lisa]
contol f worked
15:16:50 [Rain]
... also matches how I feel about it
15:17:18 [Lisa]
so it is good that it is all in one document becuse contol f worked
15:17:46 [Lisa]
is it plain langn?
15:18:04 [Rain]
Quote that stood out to Shawn: "Greater input from more than the COGA WG (which has pushed out people interested in the issues in the past) and more recognition that cognitive disabilities are broader and more complex than what WCAG has traditionally worked with. This includes acknowledging that all a11y advocates will at times have to decide that something cannot be made 100% cognitively accessible for some users."
15:21:56 [Rain]
JohnK -- the survey and feedback is around Making Content Usable:
15:24:51 [kirkwood]
oh thought we had a working google doc, w/ comments, all good
15:27:16 [Lisa]
kik: persona are reductive , need to be more diferse
15:27:31 [kirkwood]
+1 to potentially bridging to community group to assist with rounding out personas
15:27:47 [Lisa]
shawn, need to recrute
15:27:52 [Rain]
Rain: would like to see if we can leverage the community group to bring in the richness and diversity
15:28:25 [Lisa]
can we have the comments with the themes?
15:30:59 [Rain]
Synthesis of themes:
15:32:02 [Lisa]
kiki: people liked the long document, people wanted principles, glancables, but were getting blockers. repatetives, some people were there for an introduction to cognative accessibilty but the problems included
15:32:18 [Lisa]
content is good but diificalt to find
15:32:32 [Lisa]
do our prinicples sean in the doc
15:32:48 [Lisa]
some of this we are working on
15:33:00 [Lisa]
visualy dence
15:33:17 [kirkwood]
An introduction: About this document: structure, how to finding, how to use this document?
15:33:19 [Lisa]
15:34:50 [Lisa]
personaly (kiki) jargon example include: objectives senrio, user story
15:35:31 [Rain]
FYI I've updated the synthesis link that I provided to include all three of our summaries, and the full feedback:
15:38:29 [Rain]
15:41:58 [Kiki]
15:42:16 [Lisa]
ack next
15:42:57 [ShawnT]
We can all here Rain
15:43:07 [ShawnT]
hear even
15:43:12 [Rain]
We can hear everyone, but it seems Lisa cannot hear us
15:43:33 [Lisa]
15:43:57 [Lisa]
kiki: mainly teck
15:44:46 [Lisa]
getting feedback is hard
15:44:48 [kirkwood]
great feedback, seems a plain language summary (& purpose) should be rounded out a bit would be helpful? and just define jargon? to address feedback (my thoughts)?
15:44:59 [Lisa]
more analisis will be done
15:45:28 [Lisa]
qualitative study will also help
15:46:09 [Lisa]
john. great feedback
15:46:16 [Lisa]
ack next
15:46:30 [Lisa]
rain: we are in the analisis phase
15:47:19 [Lisa]
15:47:24 [kirkwood]
shows how we need to make understandable, not ez great feedback
15:48:58 [Lisa]
15:51:17 [Rain]
Structure KPI - yes, think that we may be able to agree on the new form/plan by end of march
15:51:51 [Rain]
Research KPI - stakeholders, yes, new issue papers and identifying and making them publication ready, possibly at risk
15:52:47 [ShawnT]
I can help formatting but not really researching the documents
15:54:18 [Lisa]
RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:54:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Lisa
15:54:31 [Rain]
Thank you!
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