12:05:36 RRSAgent has joined #wot 12:05:36 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-irc 12:05:40 dape has joined #wot 12:05:47 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#26_October_2022 12:05:53 meeting: WoT-IG/WG 12:05:59 chair: McCool/Sebastian 12:06:38 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Ege_Korkan, Erich_Barnstedt, Jan_Romann, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Koster, Michael_Lagally, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Daniel_Peintner 12:06:42 scribenick: dape 12:07:37 TOPIC: Minutes 12:07:46 -> https://www.w3.org/2022/10/19-wot-minutes.html Oct-19 12:07:47 -> Oct-19 -> https://www.w3.org/2022/10/19-wot-minutes.html 12:08:00 s|https://www.w3.org/2022/10/19-wot-minutes.html|| 12:08:30 cris_ has joined #wot 12:08:35 sebastian has joined #wot 12:09:30 MMC: Minutes look good 12:09:41 ... any changes? 12:09:53 ... -> none -> minutes approved 12:10:00 TOPIC: Quick updates 12:10:16 MMC: Daylight Saving Time Change coming soon 12:10:23 ... please use calendar entries 12:10:38 ... Calls based on US Time 12:10:41 q+ 12:10:54 ... outside US time: times might change 12:10:59 q+ 12:11:12 rrsagent, make log public 12:11:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:11:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:11:18 ack s 12:11:26 sorry Ege 12:11:35 SK: The W3C calendar should be correct in all cases 12:11:54 EK: We might need to update website 12:12:04 s/-> Oct-19 ->// 12:12:08 MMC: Yes, please update. Things will shift around 12:12:20 i/Daylight Saving/subtopic: Daylight Saving Change/ 12:12:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:12:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:12:36 MMC: w.r.t CCNC2023 International Workshop 12:12:46 ... didn't get any more feedback 12:12:50 ... will ping them again 12:12:53 s/sorry Ege// 12:13:15 MMC: Cancellations and updates 12:13:17 ryuichi has joined #wot 12:13:22 ... Kaz is not available next Monday 12:13:51 i/CCNC/subtopic: IIWOT Workshop/ 12:13:52 ... I added cancellations for security, and discovery besides scripting 12:13:59 i/Cancella/subtopic: Cancellations 12:14:08 q+ 12:14:13 ack e 12:14:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:14:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:14:53 q+ 12:15:06 MMC: I updated cancellations for December-January also 12:15:49 ack k 12:15:51 ack e 12:16:14 kaz: all the TF Moderators should update the cancellation information 12:16:30 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#Cancellations_and_Schedule_Updates Cancellations 12:16:40 q+ 12:16:54 SUBTOPIC: How to deal with new PRs for WoT Use Cases? 12:17:02 Kaz: We are getting new PRs 12:17:10 ... should decide how to resolve those new items 12:17:27 MMC: re-instate the use-case call? On Thursday? 12:17:34 ... overlaps editors call 12:17:42 q? 12:17:44 q? 12:17:46 ack k 12:17:46 ack k 12:18:02 ML: Too many calls 12:18:19 ... can we hold of these calls till December? 12:18:43 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi, Ryuichi_Matsukura, Tomoaki_Mizushima 12:18:50 q? 12:18:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:18:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:19:42 https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pulls 12:19:55 MMC: December 6 ? tentatively... 12:20:27 EK: My input more relevant for next charter discussions 12:20:44 q+ 12:20:55 ML: Are assessment ... should have a good understanding 12:21:00 q+ 12:21:06 ... like geolocation 12:21:24 MMC: don't think it blocks CR 12:21:31 Kaz: let's aim for December 6 12:22:07 q+ 12:22:09 ... if people feel we need earlier discussions .. please state it in PR/issue 12:22:09 ack s 12:22:12 ack k 12:22:13 ack e 12:22:37 TOPIC: Resolutions 12:22:50 SUBTOPIC: CR Transition TD 12:23:25 MMC: Implementation report is not required for CR 12:23:37 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1730 12:24:03 12:24:26 s/rendering/rendered version 12:24:43 MMC: no respec errors 12:24:43 s/https/-> https/ 12:25:02 ... rule and publication checkers passed 12:25:08 s/1730/1730 wot-thing-description PR 1730 - Update Implementation Report and Prep for CR/ 12:25:25 ... it adds at risk sections 12:25:47 ... like OAuth, internationalization, ... 12:25:57 ... we have 454 assertions 12:26:07 ... about 20 left 12:26:14 ... I think we are in good shape 12:26:19 q+ 12:26:21 i|shows rende|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1726 wot-thing-description PR 1726 - Enumerate At-Risk Items| 12:26:32 MMC: Would like to merge this PR 12:26:43 ... and go for CR 12:27:04 s/SUBTOPIC: CR Transition TD/subtopic: CR Transition for TD/ 12:27:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:27:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:27:11 SK: Thank you for the contributions / testfest etc 12:27:23 q+ 12:27:25 ack s 12:27:37 ... I agree, we are in good shape 12:28:06 Kaz: CR transition does not require perfect result 12:28:24 ... we just need to provide template 12:28:37 .. but we need to state features at risk like McCool did 12:28:51 s/perfect result/perfect results/ 12:28:56 q+ 12:29:24 MMC: BTW, searching for assertions are not all... rows may add assertions also 12:29:26 s/template/templates for getting implementation./ 12:29:30 ack k 12:29:39 s/.. but/... but/ 12:30:06 s/but we need/the more important at this stage is that we need/ 12:30:36 s/state features at risk/clarify the features at-risk within the SoTD section/ 12:30:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:30:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:30:52 ack ml 12:30:58 q+ 12:31:12 q+ 12:31:39 MMC: previous reports get ingratiated as well 12:31:53 ML: How many assertions did we have in TD1.0 12:31:59 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/20a66ccef95be67e5848ed51a9656bed9f62e12a/testing/all-TD-implementations.csv 12:32:00 MMC: don't have number handy 12:32:07 ... but I assume fewer 12:32:25 ML: I created all-TD-implementations.csv 12:32:52 ... to see what comes in from implementors 12:33:17 ... "Nr of XXX" means no response 12:33:33 MMC: old or changed .. maybe 12:33:37 q? 12:33:40 q+ 12:33:55 MMC: in new report those are ignored 12:33:57 q+ 12:34:16 ... they are not counted anymore 12:34:36 ML: Would like to have transparency 12:35:17 MMC: impl report is not a blocker for CR anyway 12:35:55 ... our policy is to count distinct code bases 12:36:15 ML: need to check with old providers of results 12:36:36 MMC: need to work on testimonial 12:37:00 q? 12:37:04 ack ml 12:37:58 MMC: "Contribution Member organization" line should be added to each report that is provided 12:38:12 ... let's get back to CR proposal for TD 12:38:34 ack s 12:38:40 .. I would like to call the question whether we are fine with it 12:39:25 Kaz: I suggest to add "draft" to all implementation reports 12:39:33 MMC: Good point, will do that 12:39:41 ack kaz 12:39:44 s/to add/we add/ 12:39:54 s/we add/we explicitly/ 12:40:50 proposal: merge PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1730 and publish the file in publication/ver11/5-cr/Overview.html as a CR Candidate for the Web of Things (WoT) Thing Description 1.1 deliverable. 12:41:08 ack e 12:41:09 +1 12:41:19 +1 12:41:32 proposal: merge PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1730 and publish the file in publication/ver11/5-cr/Overview.html as a CR Candidate for the Web of Things (WoT) Thing Description 1.1 deliverable. In addition, add the word "DRAFT" to the title of the implementation report. 12:42:03 resolution: merge PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1730 and publish the file in publication/ver11/5-cr/Overview.html as a CR Candidate for the Web of Things (WoT) Thing Description 1.1 deliverable. In addition, add the word "DRAFT" to the title of the implementation report. 12:42:17 q+ 12:42:30 MMC: TD for CR is done! 12:42:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:42:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:42:36 SK: Thanks everyone 12:43:11 ML: Question: Outcome to TD investigations normative vs informative ? 12:43:21 q+ 12:43:24 ack ml 12:43:38 SK: 4 people scanned all assertions 12:43:52 present+ David_Ezell 12:43:57 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1722#issuecomment-1284364795 12:44:10 ... summary -> no conflicts nor problem 12:44:16 ML: Okay, thanks! 12:44:29 q- 12:44:47 SUBTOPIC: CR Transition WoT Discovery 12:45:15 https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/430 12:45:16 MMC: discovery has more at risk assertions 12:45:24 s/https/-> https/ 12:45:50 s/430/430 wot-discovery PR 430 - CR publication prep and IR finalization| 12:45:50 ... quite a few things are at risk 12:45:59 s/finalization|/finalization/ 12:46:16 ... CoAP and UDP for example 12:46:29 ... issues around sorting, date-times 12:47:24 ... concerned about discovery behavior and bootstrapping .. but I think we can resolve them 12:47:36 ... we have about 4-5 implementations 12:48:33 ... about 20% of assertions are not passing 12:49:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:49:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:49:04 q+ 12:49:21 ... some things are eve about errors 12:49:32 ... dropping some assertions is not a big deal 12:50:23 ... a lot of security assertions are at risk... some used to be informative in last charter.. we might need to turn them back 12:50:36 ML: How to resolve open issues/assertions ? 12:50:46 q+ 12:50:49 q+ 12:50:50 ... target new PlugFest / TestFest in December ? 12:50:51 ack ml 12:51:07 MMC: or ask for new implementations or update existing impls 12:51:21 ... for TestFest we do not have a big window 12:51:32 ... Let's discuss this next call 12:51:34 ack s 12:51:51 SK: +1 for having another TestFest 12:52:05 ML: +1 12:52:25 Kaz: I am ok with the proposal 12:52:38 ... we need to update publication schedule 12:52:53 ... clarify further schedule 12:53:02 ... after CR 12:53:09 ... for PR and REC 12:53:21 s/proposal/proposal itself as usual/ 12:53:36 s/we need/however, please remember we need/ 12:53:40 proposal: merge PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/430 and publish the file in publication/ver11/3-cr/Overview.html as a CR Candidate for the Web of Things (WoT) Discovery deliverable. In addition, add the word "DRAFT" to the title of the implementation report. 12:54:04 proposal: merge PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/430 and publish the file in publication/ver11/4-cr/Overview.html as a CR Candidate for the Web of Things (WoT) Discovery deliverable. In addition, add the word "DRAFT" to the title of the implementation report. 12:54:06 s/update publication schedule/update the publication schedule/ 12:54:11 proposal: merge PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/430 and publish the file in publication/4-cr/Overview.html as a CR Candidate for the Web of Things (WoT) Discovery deliverable. In addition, add the word "DRAFT" to the title of the implementation report. 12:54:30 dezell has joined #wot 12:54:33 MMC: Any objections? 12:54:41 present+ David_Ezell 12:54:44 resolution: merge PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/430 and publish the file in publication/4-cr/Overview.html as a CR Candidate for the Web of Things (WoT) Discovery deliverable. In addition, add the word "DRAFT" to the title of the implementation report. 12:54:45 ... none 12:54:53 .. discovery is done 12:55:09 SUBTOPIC: CR Transition WoT Architecture 1.1 12:55:29 MMC: Discussed PRs on table during profile/arch call 12:55:45 ... consensus was to integrate them 12:55:46 i|ok with|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/charters/wg-2021-extension-plan.md updated publication schedule| 12:55:57 ... resolving issues in arch call tomorrow 12:56:01 q+ 12:56:12 ... agree by email 12:56:22 ... don't object means approve 12:56:27 ack k 12:56:39 ML: Couple of options 12:56:50 ack ml 12:56:51 ... use current draft as baseline 12:57:04 s/as b/as the b/ 12:57:07 ... or current draft is ok 12:57:29 ... what if we don't conclude/agree tomorrow 12:57:31 q+ 12:57:49 SK: I think we are close to consensus 12:57:53 i|Discussed PR|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/858 wot-architecture PR 858 - Prep for CR, finalize IR and document at-risk items| 12:58:10 ... I see just 2 topics ... 12:58:17 q? 12:58:19 ack s 12:58:25 ... I am optimistic 12:58:28 proposal: The current Architecture draft will be finalized tomorrow Nov 27 in the Architecture TF call and a call for resolution for CR transition will be made by email immediately after the meeting. If there are no objections within 24 hours of the email the Architecture draft will proceed with CR transition. 12:59:18 q+ 12:59:28 MMC: If we get objections we need to handle it next week 12:59:37 proposal: The current Architecture draft will be finalized tomorrow Nov 27 in the Architecture TF call and a call for resolution for CR transition will be made by email immediately after the meeting. If there are no objections within 24 hours of the email the Architecture draft will proceed with CR transition. If there is an objection we will adjust the schedule and discuss in the next main call. 12:59:40 Kaz: several possibilities 12:59:47 proposal: use the current architecture CR as the baseline and include those PRs that we can get unanimous consensus 12:59:58 ... "given" could be added upfront 13:00:18 ack kaz 13:01:14 proposal: Use current Architecture CR draft will be finalized tomorrow Nov 27 in the Architecture TF call by merging those PRs current on the table that have unanimous consensus and a call for resolution for CR transition will be made by email immediately after the meeting. If there are no objections within 24 hours of the email the Architecture draft will proceed with CR transition. 13:01:17 s/several possibilities/as Lagally mentioned, there are several possibilities at the moment/ 13:01:29 s/"given"/So "given"/ 13:01:40 proposal: Use current Architecture CR draft will be finalized tomorrow Oct 27 in the Architecture TF call by merging those PRs current on the table that have unanimous consensus and a call for resolution for CR transition will be made by email immediately after the meeting. If there are no objections within 24 hours of the email the Architecture draft will proceed with CR transition. 13:01:49 q+ 13:01:51 q? 13:02:24 proposal: Use current Architecture CR draft will be finalized tomorrow Oct 27 in the Architecture TF call by merging those PRs currently on the table that have unanimous consensus and a call for resolution for CR transition will be made by email immediately after the meeting. If there are no objections within 24 hours of the email the Architecture draft will proceed with CR transition. 13:02:42 proposal: Extend this meeting for 30m. 13:02:54 7 PRs in https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pulls 13:02:56 resolution: Extend this meeting for 30m. 13:03:18 ack k 13:03:23 proposal: Use current Architecture CR draft will be finalized tomorrow Oct 27 in the Architecture TF call by merging those PRs currently on the table (https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pulls) that have unanimous consensus and a call for resolution for CR transition will be made by email immediately after the meeting. If there are no objections within 24 hours of the email the Architecture draft will proceed with CR transition. 13:03:37 MMC: any objections? 13:04:27 proposal: Use the current Architecture CR draft as the basis of a CR to be finalized tomorrow Oct 27 in the Architecture TF call by merging those PRs currently on the table (https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pulls) that have unanimous consensus and a call for resolution for CR transition will be made by email immediately after the meeting. If there are no objections within 24 hours of the email the Architecture draft will proceed with CR tran[CUT] 13:04:50 (PR 865, 863, 862, 860, 858, 856 and 855) 13:04:58 ... none -> approved 13:06:11 : Use the current Architecture CR draft as the basis of a CR to be finalized tomorrow Oct 27 in the Architecture TF call by merging those PRs currently on the table (wot-architecture PRs 865, 863, 862, 860, 858, 856 and 855) that have unanimous consensus and a call for resolution for CR transition will be made by email immediately after the meeting. If there are no objections within 24 hours of the email the Architecture draft will proceed with CR [CUT] 13:06:35 ML: will add "by CR" label to PRs 13:07:00 resolution: Use the current Architecture CR draft as the basis of a CR to be finalized tomorrow Oct 27 in the Architecture TF call by merging those PRs currently on the table (PRs 865, 863, 862, 860, 858, 856 and 855) that have unanimous consensus and a call for resolution for CR transition will be made by email immediately after the meeting. If there are no objections within 24 hours of the email the Architecture draft will proceed with CR transition. 13:07:29 s/... none -> approved// 13:07:31 MMC: please attend Architecture call or comment on PRs 13:07:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:07:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:07:59 SUBTOPIC: Revisiting how to deal with Profile for this Charter period 13:08:13 MMC: include Profiles in next charter 13:08:40 ML: Correct, bring Profile to REC in beginning of next charter 13:09:32 proposal: to affirm the intention to actively collaborate and proceed with publishing the Profile as a REC as soon as possible in the next charter. 13:10:02 ML: When will next charter start? 13:10:21 q+ 13:10:30 MMC: Not sure.. charter might take a bit.. 13:10:34 ... as soon as possible 13:10:57 Kaz: Suggest to split discussions about this charter and next charter 13:11:13 ... need to clarify schedule 13:11:32 ... potentially we could consider extension 13:11:48 ... suggest to focus on current charter period 13:12:05 MMC: Resolution about what to include in next charter... 13:12:19 q+ 13:12:22 ack k 13:12:30 Kaz: charter discussions should be separated also 13:12:56 MMC: Suggest Profile to be a deliverable for next charter 13:13:01 proposal: Extend the current WG charter for 6 months to complete all 4 normative deliverables to REC 13:13:33 s/proposal/Lagally's proposal/ 13:13:43 q+ 13:14:10 proposal: To include Profiles as a deliverable in the next WG charter, and proceed with publishing the Profile as a REC as soon as possible in the next charter. 13:14:26 ack ml 13:14:31 ML: current proposal is too fuzzy 13:14:43 ... I don't think it is good enough 13:15:05 MMC: date for new charter in place? 13:15:19 Kaz: Procedure takes a few months 13:15:30 ... delayed for end of January 13:16:08 s/Procedure/rechartering procedure/ 13:16:16 MMC: I think we agreed to not publish Profile in this charter 13:16:22 ... issue is timing 13:16:24 q+ 13:16:31 q+ 13:17:16 s/delayed/so we're already delayed for the end of this extended Charter period. However, the question here is "How to deal with the WoT Profile specification during this Charter period?". So I strongly would suggest we concetrate on that./ 13:17:21 ack k 13:17:22 ... need to work on charter draft 13:17:31 s/concetrate/concentrate/ 13:17:36 ack ml 13:17:37 q+ 13:17:37 ML: I am concerned 13:18:12 ... a lot of uncertainty 13:18:43 ... I believe we can get a new charter extension 13:18:48 proposal: To include Profiles as a deliverable in the next WG charter, if it cannot be completed in this charter. 13:19:01 ... we could also include binding templates 13:19:12 s/concentrate on that./concentrate on that regardless of the potential extension./ 13:19:21 MMC: extension might not happen ... as a fallback still possible 13:19:27 q+ 13:19:34 SK: Agree with MMC 13:19:36 ack seb 13:19:46 q+ 13:19:56 .. surprised that we talk about extensions now 13:20:17 (don't forget... extensions take the same amount of time as a new charter now...) 13:20:40 Kaz: We mix up questions 13:20:46 ... update schedule 13:20:57 ... how to deal with profile in next charter 13:21:50 ... need to clarify updated schedule for this charter period first 13:22:23 q+ 13:22:26 ... we can clarify schedule till Jan 23 13:22:44 ack kaz 13:23:11 ... no one says we should stop working on Profile 13:23:15 ML: My vision 13:23:22 .. TestFest in December 13:23:34 ack ml 13:23:39 q+ 13:23:40 ... we do interop tests 13:24:00 s/Jan 23/Jan 31/ 13:24:17 ... Profile "could" become CR candidate 13:24:19 q+ 13:24:24 s/on Profile/on Profile right away. Right?/ 13:24:53 ML: We can work on Profile once Arch is stable 13:25:06 s/Jan 31/Jan 31, 2023/ 13:25:21 CA: w.r.t. extension 13:25:53 ... new features in TD are post-poned with an extension 13:26:10 ... we have label "next charter" ... 13:26:22 ... people are asking us for these new features 13:26:30 s/post-poned/postponed/ 13:26:53 MMC: We could wait for November to make CR for Profile 13:27:15 ... getting extension takes as long as a new charter 13:27:45 q+ 13:27:52 ack c 13:27:53 ... maybe we should finish charter draft .. and include Profile in new charter 13:28:01 qq+ mlagally_ 13:28:03 ack m 13:28:12 ack ml 13:28:12 mlagally_, you wanted to react to cris_ 13:28:13 ML: We have a process with use-cases and requirements 13:28:16 qq+ McCool 13:28:39 ... I suggest we follow the process 13:28:50 https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/USE-CASES/coverage.csv 13:28:59 https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/REQUIREMENTS/requirements-summary.csv 13:29:05 ... we need use-cases & requirements .. not just developers asking for a feature 13:29:14 ack Mc 13:29:14 McCool, you wanted to react to mlagally_ 13:29:26 MMC: use-case for me is a set of proposed requirements 13:29:43 Kaz: Please split related, but different, issues 13:29:56 ... this charter is this charter and next charter is next charter 13:30:13 MMC: We are discussing options to get Profile done 13:30:53 Kaz: encourage ML to provide schedule what is done by Nov, Dec, and Jan 13:31:47 SK: Focus on CR for Profile within this charter 13:32:03 .. pick it up in next charter 13:32:21 proposal: To aim to progress the Profile specfication to CR status in the current charter, then to include Profiles as a deliverable in the next WG charter, if it cannot be completed in this charter. 13:32:37 proposal: To aim to progress the Profile specification to CR status in the current charter, then to include Profiles as a deliverable in the next WG charter, if it cannot be completed in this charter. 13:32:39 s/.. pick/... pick/ 13:32:47 ML: Arch call tomorrow. I can come up with schedule till tomorrow 13:33:07 ... suggest to not decide today 13:33:10 q? 13:33:34 ack k 13:33:36 ack s 13:33:36 ack s 13:33:41 MMC: I am ok with that but only after the Arch discussions are settled first 13:33:44 ML: Okay 13:33:51 ack sebastian 13:33:52 ack s 13:33:52 q+ 13:34:15 SK: Support to work on Profile in this charter and finish in next charter 13:34:34 q+ 13:34:35 EK: I suggest to ask WG for 2 implementations from consumer side 13:34:39 ... this was lacking 13:34:54 MMC: let's discuss this tomorrow 13:34:59 ack e 13:35:12 Kaz: No resolution needed today? 13:35:17 MMC: Correct 13:35:21 ack kaz 13:35:38