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13:40:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:40:31 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:40:54 <jeanne> present:
13:40:54 <jeanne> chair: jeanne
13:40:54 <jeanne> present+
13:40:54 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
13:40:54 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:40:55 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
13:40:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/21-silver-minutes.html jeanne
13:40:55 <jeanne> q?
13:42:54 <jeanne> agenda+ Preview of Tuesday AG WG call
13:42:54 <jeanne> agenda+ Review asynchronously drafted user needs
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13:57:45 <janina> agenda?
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13:59:03 <Chuck> My mic is not working, trying to address.
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14:01:55 <JenniferStrickland> present+
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14:02:33 <Rachael> scribe: Rachael
14:02:53 <Rachael> present+
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14:03:29 <janina> present+
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14:03:56 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 1
14:03:56 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Preview of Tuesday AG WG call -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:04:08 <Rachael> Jeanne: Upcoming agenda for AGWG. Link to email:
14:04:12 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
14:04:12 <jeanne> Email with agenda -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2022Oct/0024.html
14:04:27 <Rachael> ...the major things. There is a survey on the WCAG 2.2 retrospective.
14:04:34 <jeanne> WCAG 2.2 retrospective -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22_retro/
14:04:47 <Chuck> q+
14:04:51 <jeanne>  Accessibility Supported Subgroup -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/access-support-subgroup-oct22/
14:04:59 <Rachael> ...also a survey on standing up the accessibility supported subgroup.
14:05:32 <Rachael> Chuck: I do want to call attention to the retrospective as it includes some proposed tweaks to the decision policy that would apply.
14:06:22 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
14:06:22 <Rachael> ...we are putting in some tweaks where we have consensus with objections it would give people a chance to propose alternatives. https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2739/files
14:06:48 <Rachael> ...It's not a significant tweak but codifies something that we think would be a good process.
14:06:57 <Chuck> q?
14:06:59 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:07:16 <Rachael> Jeanne: Thank you. Also going to have subgroup updates and reviewing possible conformance models. Questions on next week's AG meeting?
14:07:22 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 2
14:07:23 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Review asynchronously drafted user needs -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:07:24 <Chuck> agenda?
14:07:35 <jeanne> Current work -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zLOSUWkXDkT_uyVVKpuidtOF_LLEhaAXJ8v88oM1Wn4/edit#heading=h.ieisu2k2o09e
14:08:22 <Rachael> Jeanne: To recap, we have been working on an assignment from TPAC. Acting as a subgroup on this issue. Is it viable to use clearly written, detailed user needs, instead of writing outcomes?
14:09:15 <Rachael> ...we are picking an example and working through creating detailed user needs. We are doing alternative text together. Then we will asynchronously do others and present them to AGWG. We are not debating whether or not we should do it. We are creating examples so AG can have the higher level discussions.
14:09:17 <Rachael> q+
14:10:27 <Rachael> ...last week we looked at the document (link above) and brainstormed the first step. Get the examples of flows of images. Made a substantive list. We made one edit this week. We had a discussion of symbol fonts. I added an example as an image (can't paste in as text). For those who need a description of it, I typed a sentence and put it in a symbol font.
14:11:09 <Rachael> ...what you will see there is dots, brackets, semicircles, check marks, crosses, and a variety of other generally useful visual icons but anyone who was reading it with a screen reader would hear The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
14:12:11 <janina> scribe+ janina
14:12:15 <Rachael> ...There are 26 items on here. Homework was to pick 1-2 items on the list and start working through the rest of the steps. I didn't see anyone else who had done it. I started myself.  I did the first 4 items. I did the list of disabilities and barriers they encounter.
14:12:33 <Chuck> +1
14:12:37 <janina> Rachael: Suggests capturing thoughts and insights from the process as we go
14:13:10 <Rachael> scribe: Rachael
14:14:10 <Rachael> Jeanne: If someone wants to add information related to the insight, we can put it somewhere else. I really like how the errors group did this in a spreadsheet.
14:14:42 <Rachael> ...I tried to keep it together but it rapidly gets unwieldy. Under the second step, I separated it into two high level categories. [reads work]
14:16:04 <Rachael> Images in a form control – especially error validation – encounter images that visually state their function (e.g. buttons like “edit”, “print”, “save”, etc). Sometimes these images have alt text, but the alt text does not describe the function, such as “pencil”, “printer”, “floppy disk”.
14:16:20 <Rachael> ...Complex graphics provide necessary information for the purpose of the content, and the information is designed solely for visual comprehension.
14:16:27 <Rachael> ...chuck can you add to this?
14:16:41 <Rachael> ....Musical scores are a visual-only medium and require an embedded non-visual alternative, like MusicXML,  Music Encoding Initiative (MEI), or MNX. Need more input from Janina
14:17:01 <Rachael> Janina: That is what is supposed to supplant Music XLM eventually. The last two are the same thing. Moving slowly.
14:17:16 <Rachael> Jeanne: Can you add a link to that so we have it?
14:17:19 <Rachael> Janina. Yes.
14:17:46 <Rachael> Jeanne: That was the list of disabilities and barriers they encounter. From that I started to write the user needs. Needs work but starting point.
14:18:03 <Rachael> ..[reads] Images in form controls: Users need to perceive form controls and understand their purpose.  Visual indicators need a semantic equivalent that exposes the state of the control.  (example of the error message with visual indicators)
14:18:19 <Rachael> ...[reads next point] Complex graphics: Users need a thorough textual description of the complex graphic that conveys equivalent information that is exposed to sighted users.
14:18:27 <Rachael> ...That is my starting point for conversation.
14:18:39 <janina> MNX CG: https://www.w3.org/community/music-notation/2016/05/19/introducing-mnx/
14:18:48 <Rachael> ...What do you think about this as a process, particularly those from errors group who did this?
14:19:00 <SuzanneTaylor> q+
14:19:10 <Rachael> ack Rachael
14:19:17 <jeanne> ack suz
14:20:39 <Rachael> SuzanneTaylor : We did this a little more in a lengthier way. Sarah was fantastic at processing the information. We took each scenario. In this case each type of image. Then we put all the functional needs including intersectional needs. The for each functional needs we wrote thoughts on what the neds were. Many were well established known needs. Some cases it was more raising questions and speculation. Identified that as a risk - could
14:20:39 <Rachael> make an assumption and be difficult for the group to track.
14:20:58 <Rachael> ...was something resesarch based on an assumption. Important to mark assumptions/questions.
14:21:33 <Rachael> ...Suggest writing a question. Example: Would someone with diabiliitating anxiety find this error message troublesome.
14:21:41 <Rachael> ...Good to mark things that may be missed.
14:22:15 <Rachael> ...I note that you have html that has sound effects. Often those are forgotten in reviews because the current SC don't call it out. Going through the process is valuable.
14:23:01 <Chuck> q+
14:23:10 <Rachael> ...We could provide a few methods to consolidate since there are options. That may make it more palatible.
14:23:16 <Rachael> ack Chuck
14:23:30 <Rachael> Chuck: You'd opened up that this is a lengthy process. How lengthy?
14:23:36 <Rachael> SuzanneTaylor: I wonder if Sarah could comment?
14:23:45 <sarahhorton> q+
14:23:51 <Rachael> ack sarahhorton
14:23:58 <Chuck> you sound good
14:25:12 <Rachael> sarahhorton: It was a while ago but it definitely was lengthy. We started a few steps back from the list here. We went into very granular scenarios, almost use cases.
14:26:12 <Rachael> ...We made an inventory of different flows you might encounter a digital interface and building up from there. A long document:
14:26:17 <sarahhorton> Error flows document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1siHMdNk96v2DVY6sarjZCDt5-nvqvQq13bXOOYymNlw/edit#heading=h.uk0e1opoh642
14:26:20 <Chuck> Thank you Sarah!
14:27:04 <Rachael> ....very granular flows. How are people effected by these? Then move into looping
14:27:06 <sarahhorton> Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BEzSKUsoMQZAwLY5uM5T4Jk7vqKruQT8EaheijQJ7nk/edit#gid=14365122
14:27:28 <Rachael> ...weeks of working together to do an information archictecture exercise. A lot of sense making.
14:27:59 <Rachael> ...a lot of grouping. To Suzanne's point, we were a group of people, a lot of whom has done usability studies. Bringing expertise in.
14:28:19 <Rachael> ...a little snapshot based on a small group of people's experience when compared with the world of lived experiences.
14:28:35 <Rachael> ...helfpul in surfacing things that isn't accounted for.
14:28:50 <jeanne> q+
14:28:56 <Rachael> ... about a year of work. A lot of work.
14:28:59 <jeanne> ack je
14:29:42 <Rachael> Jeanne: Trying to keep a balance. We aren't trying to write alt text. Errors was writing the guidelines. Our task here is to create examples that AGWG can look at.
14:29:44 <Chuck> +1 to focusing us on examples for WCAG
14:30:08 <Rachael> ...but I also know that when work gets done, even if an example, people tend to treat is as if its throrough. What would chairs like?
14:30:09 <Rachael> q+
14:30:14 <Chuck> q+
14:30:18 <Rachael> ack Rachael
14:30:32 <janina> scribe: janina
14:30:56 <janina> Rachael: My perspective is to keep this activity--but try for the 8 week time frame we've been using
14:31:06 <Chuck> +1 to Rachael's suggestion of keeping light for this exercise.
14:31:16 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:31:18 <janina> Rachael: My thought is that this work will go into the pertinent section; but will iterate further
14:31:27 <janina> Rachael: Would not to take too much time per area
14:31:34 <janina> Chuck: agrees
14:31:42 <janina> jeanne: So, two ways to go ...
14:31:54 <janina> jeanne: A sketchier version of the Errors process or
14:32:07 <janina> jeanne: Or pick a few and just work them through to outcomes
14:32:21 <Chuck> No disagreement, +1 to "narrow" and picking...
14:32:30 <janina> jeanne: so which ...
14:32:47 <sarahhorton> q+
14:32:50 <SuzanneTaylor> q+
14:32:56 <janina> jeanne: form controls and complex graphix are essential. Are there others people feel strongly about? And will work on?
14:33:22 <janina> sarahhorton: suggest narrow and undisputed; that rules out complex images maybe
14:33:30 <janina> sarahhorton: that's a massive topic
14:33:43 <janina> sarahhorton: maybe functional images for buttons
14:34:32 <janina> sarahhorton: don't understand 'images in a form control,' could be various kinds of functions -- informative? function?
14:35:11 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: perhaps take existing wcag3 guidelines and use this process
14:35:53 <SuzanneTaylor> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W7g9a5b3gQZ2aPEivl0KJ48K3sMg6eegtMiCwkw-eaU/edit?usp=sharing
14:36:01 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: i used this exercise as a guide working on conformance; and it was helpful even though I just followed it conceptually
14:36:19 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: i was working on captions ...
14:38:09 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: lays out specifics ... your scribe isn't quite tracking all the "ands"
14:38:45 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: point is i did the exercise in part without walking all the steps formally
14:39:11 <Chuck> Wow I'm absorbing...
14:39:21 <janina> jeanne: interesting example -- not quite what we're writing ...
14:39:50 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: regardless we have to figure out the format for the outcomes
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14:40:29 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: so user needs is alternative support for audio information
14:40:33 <Chuck> q+
14:40:46 <jeanne>  ack sar
14:40:48 <Chuck> ack Sar
14:40:48 <janina> s/audio/spoken audio/
14:40:55 <jeanne> ack suz
14:41:00 <jeanne> ack ch
14:41:36 <janina> Chuck: am intrigued; but am still liking form controls and complex images approach
14:42:01 <janina> Chuck: chair hat off: concerned starting from wcag2 isn't helping us think more comprehensively
14:42:16 <janina> jeanne: wonders about a merged approach
14:43:14 <janina> jeanne: always happy to have people expiriment with approaches ...
14:43:34 <Chuck> +1......  billion
14:43:35 <janina> jeanne: jeanne picks one and works through to writing user needs
14:43:57 <SuzanneTaylor> q+
14:44:01 <janina> jeanne: others do their own; but document the process so can explain how the user needs were established
14:44:34 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: like the idea; wondering how far to go? do we go to outcome and maybe a method or two?
14:44:45 <janina> jeanne: no; a user need that can be tested. end there
14:44:58 <janina> zuaso not an outcome
14:45:06 <sarahhorton_> q+
14:45:13 <janina> jeanne: our task is to learn whether we can eliminate the outcome level
14:45:31 <janina> jeanne: maybe we can't; that's what we're trying to establish
14:45:37 <Rachael> q+
14:45:59 <Rachael> q-
14:46:03 <janina> jeanne: philosophical idea is to keep things user oriented but testable
14:46:05 <jeanne> ack suz
14:46:08 <jeanne> ack sar
14:46:26 <janina> sarahhorton_: from a granularity perspective; we have the functional needs doc
14:47:02 <Rachael> q+
14:47:35 <janina> jeanne: more detailed; so as to establish detail user need to address X -- digital representation of artwork; or comics;
14:48:10 <janina> jeanne: looks at form controls and reads her results ...
14:48:40 <janina> sarahhorton_: so functional needs describe a way to meet a user need?
14:48:42 <janina> jeanne: yes
14:49:09 <janina> sarahhorton_: so our exercise shows how to meet that need?
14:49:21 <Chuck> q+ to say this is our first observation :-)
14:49:52 <Rachael> For what is worth, I personally think that the granularity is the same as the current outcomes but written from the user perspective instead of the application perspective
14:49:53 <Rachael> q-
14:50:28 <janina> Chuck: reads Rachael's comment above ...
14:50:53 <janina> Chuck: believe that's our first observation re what sarah and suzanne are saying
14:51:08 <janina> jeanne: where to capture that?
14:51:36 <janina> jeanne: will put at the bottom to scroll ease
14:52:34 <janina> sarahhorton_: believe i was recapping a specific example from errors work; user focussed and contrasting with alt text;
14:52:44 <Chuck> I think that's it!
14:52:49 <janina> sarahhorton_: perhaps distinguishing between user needs and system requirements
14:53:55 <janina> jeanne: asking everyone to pick a flow and work on it as an example
14:54:03 <janina> jeanne: put your name next to it!
14:54:15 <Chuck> I will not be able to participate, I will be in conference prep all next week and in conference the following week.
14:54:28 <janina> janina: similar constraints too
14:55:01 <janina> jeanne: asking ...
14:55:05 <janina> [crickets]
14:57:07 <Makoto> present+
14:57:10 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/21-silver-minutes.html janina
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