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16:57:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/20-aria-irc
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16:57:46 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:57:47 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:57:48 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:57:56 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:57:56 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:57:56 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20221020T130000
16:57:56 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:57:56 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ggZSNv
16:57:57 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3MDHcDK
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16:58:03 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:58:04 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Concerning the current reality of aria-setsize https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/149
16:58:07 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Should aria-hidden be effected by aria-owns? (milestone and assign) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1818
16:58:10 <agendabot> agenda+  -> [normative][author] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793
16:58:13 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69
16:58:14 <jamesn> present+
16:58:16 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+
16:58:29 <pkra> present+
16:58:33 <jamesn> agenda+ WAI announcement / Michael news
16:58:40 <jamesn> agenda?
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16:59:07 <jamesn> zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,9,4,5,6,7,8
16:59:08 <Zakim> ok, jamesn
16:59:12 <jamesn> agenda?
16:59:25 <StefanS> present+
17:00:16 <Adam_Page> present+
17:00:17 <spectranaut> cochair: spectranaut
17:00:22 <spectranaut> chair: spectranaut
17:02:00 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
17:03:29 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:03:29 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ggZSNv -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:30 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:03:38 <scotto> present+
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17:04:07 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: #1836
17:04:08 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:04:45 <Adam_Page> pkra: there’s been a proposal to deprecate
17:06:18 <Adam_Page> cyncs: change the title to “Consider the future of aria-flowto”
17:06:55 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: pkra, please make a comment on the deprecation issue
17:07:08 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: #1835
17:07:17 <Adam_Page> ... we can’t change 1.1, right?
17:07:30 <Adam_Page> jamesn: could do errata, but no point
17:07:39 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: #174
17:07:54 <Adam_Page> ... web driver now has support for accname, a bunch of manual tests could be made automated
17:08:07 <Adam_Page> ... bigger technical project
17:08:45 <Adam_Page> cyns: could be good for an intern
17:09:50 <Adam_Page> jcraig: will connect with an Apple engineer to write examples test for others to imitate
17:10:01 <harris> harris has joined #aria
17:10:26 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: will put it in 2023H1 milestone
17:10:35 <harris> present+
17:10:36 <Adam_Page> ... return to it later
17:10:43 <Adam_Page> ... #1832
17:10:55 <Adam_Page> jamesn: placeholder issue for when it needs to come on to agenda
17:11:04 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: #441, no need to discuss
17:11:10 <Adam_Page> ... #440
17:11:41 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’ll take assignment
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17:12:07 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
17:12:29 <harris_> harris_ has joined #aria
17:12:30 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:12:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3MDHcDK -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:18 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:13:29 <Adam_Page> jcraig: source for get_computed_label, and should also have get_computed_role:
17:13:40 <Adam_Page> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/blob/c478d0f4a1/webdriver/tests/get_computed_label/get.py
17:13:43 <Adam_Page> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/blob/c478d0f4a1/webdriver/tests/get_computed_role/get.py
17:14:00 <Adam_Page> https://wpt.fyi/results/webdriver/tests/get_computed_label/get.py?label=master&label=experimental&aligned&view=subtest
17:14:23 <Adam_Page> jcraig: should get an issue in Firefox tracker
17:15:26 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: PR #14
17:15:41 <Adam_Page> jamesn: jcraig, will you review?
17:16:18 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: PR #442
17:17:04 <Adam_Page> scotto: have a minor companion PR to expand the definition (#1834)
17:17:21 <Adam_Page> ... this is not normative, just expanding the definition of what the role represents
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17:17:34 <Adam_Page> ... meant to indicate content that is no longer relevant
17:18:32 <Adam_Page> ... created browser bugs to change mapping
17:19:03 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: #1834
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17:22:46 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:22:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/20-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:25:06 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: dig up related issue to “taxonomy”
17:25:31 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: #150
17:25:54 <Adam_Page> ... we need a maintainer for UIA
17:27:16 <Adam_Page> ... Dan at Microsoft might be the replacement
17:27:21 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:27:21 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:48 <Adam_Page> zakim, close item
17:27:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', Adam_Page
17:27:57 <jamesn> agenda?
17:28:30 <spectranaut> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821
17:28:36 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: want to find time to consder accname proposal from BGaraventa
17:28:51 <Adam_Page> BGaraventa: need participants to come to an agreement
17:31:40 <Adam_Page> BGaraventa: I’ll send out proposals for time slots
17:31:58 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:31:58 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- WAI announcement / Michael news -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:32:33 <MichaelC_> https://www.w3.org/blog/2022/10/w3c-wai-updates-october-2022/
17:32:41 <MichaelC_> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-announce/2022OctDec/0002.html
17:32:46 <MichaelC_> https://www.w3.org/blog/2022/10/stepping-forward-on-wai-management/
17:32:54 <Adam_Page> MichaelC_: official announcements
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17:33:05 <Adam_Page> MichaelC_: Judy Brewer is leaving W3C
17:33:09 <Jaunita_George> Present+
17:33:23 <Adam_Page> MichaelC_: still working out details
17:33:40 <Adam_Page> MichaelC_: intend for WG operations to not be impacted
17:34:09 <Adam_Page> MichaelC_: for ARIA, Daniele Montalvo may transition in
17:34:27 <Adam_Page> MichaelC_: W3C is going through transition to separate legal entity
17:34:40 <Adam_Page> MichaelC_: waiting for that to be finalized
17:34:51 <Adam_Page> MichaelC_: will hopefully have plan in early 2023
17:35:10 <Adam_Page> jamesn: congratulations on new role!
17:35:52 <Adam_Page> MichaelC_: Judy will still be around for a bit
17:37:08 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:37:08 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Concerning the current reality of aria-setsize https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/149 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:37:51 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: scotto did some research and JAWS-test linked another issue that sarahhigley opened
17:38:07 <Adam_Page> ... is this a proposal now, scotto?
17:38:36 <Adam_Page> scotto: ARIA spec says that people can set -1 to mean “undetermined amount”, but core-aam says -1 should return 1
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17:39:18 <Adam_Page> ... browsers all act differently than each other
17:39:42 <Adam_Page> ... would make most sense to return “undetermined”
17:39:58 <Adam_Page> ... screen readers should be able to take that value and then add whatever they want to
17:40:17 <Adam_Page> ... filed bug against Edge internally, but Travis’ departure affects that
17:40:53 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: Joanie’s suggestion is to add a “user agents SHOULD NOT calculate” statement
17:40:57 <Adam_Page> ... what do we think?
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17:41:05 <Adam_Page> scotto: yes, that makes sense
17:41:41 <Adam_Page> ... there are mixed opinions
17:41:51 <Adam_Page> ... let screen readers decide what they want to say is the best option
17:42:17 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: from the user’s POV, it’s difficult to say what the best thing to do is
17:43:31 <jamesn> q+
17:43:34 <Adam_Page> ... users need to be able to understand the size of the list.  If there is a visual indication of that, it needs an equivalent
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17:44:31 <Adam_Page> scotto: there _is_ a scrollbar there, but it’s fudged; it doesn’t reflect the actual size of the list
17:44:34 <jamesn> ack me
17:44:51 <Adam_Page> ... it’s “generic” in that it represents “there are more”, but without accuracy
17:45:37 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: what we want to say is “there are N here, and there are more available”
17:46:05 <Adam_Page> jamesn: something like “Item 1 of at least 10”
17:46:35 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: if we have this indeterminate value, what does it actually communicate to AT and when should authors use it
17:47:01 <Adam_Page> ... programmatically, maybe indeterminate is the correct implementation, but we haven’t said what it means for AT vendors and how to serve users
17:47:47 <Adam_Page> s/Daniele/Daniel/
17:48:17 <Adam_Page> scotto: core-aam spec needs to be updated
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17:50:41 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: do we agree that -1 should mean indeterminate?  or should there be some calculation by the user agent?
17:50:49 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: we need input from AT vendors
17:51:00 <Adam_Page> ... the number that’s in the DOM is actually useful and worth communicating
17:51:25 <Adam_Page> ... if AT said “you’re on item 68 of 69 or more”, that would be useful information
17:53:54 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: right now, there are no normative requirements
17:54:07 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’ll take assignment of sarahhigley’s related issue
17:54:14 <Adam_Page> ... next step: come up with draft proposal
17:54:26 <Adam_Page> ... agree with Matt_King: do it in the spec first
17:54:49 <Matt_King> present+
17:55:22 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: first make specs consistent, then later change to provide guidance to screen readers?
17:55:37 <Adam_Page> scotto: yes, first fix spec inconsistency
17:55:44 <Adam_Page> ... and then, yes, future discussion with AT
17:55:49 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:55:49 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Should aria-hidden be effected by aria-owns? (milestone and assign) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1818 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:56:43 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: aria-owns overrides aria-hidden, and we just need to update spec
17:57:37 <Adam_Page> ... want to do what Chrome and Firefox do, then update spec
17:57:42 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:57:42 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> [normative][author] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:58:23 <Adam_Page> pkra: secondary actions issue specifically mentions tree items.  Do we still want this?
17:59:09 <Adam_Page> pkra: secondary actions permits what this issue was originally intending to prohibit
17:59:24 <Adam_Page> jamesn: let’s discuss next week
17:59:34 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: don’t think they conflict, but should revisit
17:59:58 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
17:59:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jamesn, pkra, StefanS, Adam_Page, scotto, MarkMcCarthy, harris, bgaraventa, Jaunita_George, Matt_King
18:00:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:00:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/20-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:00:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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18:01:27 <Adam_Page> s/cyncs/cyns/
18:02:07 <Adam_Page> s/consder/consider
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18:04:02 <Adam_Page> zakim, make minutes
18:04:07 <Adam_Page> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/20-aria-minutes.html Adam_Page
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