14:45:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
14:45:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/14-pbgsc-irc
14:45:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:45:24 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:45:41 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
14:45:45 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2022Oct/0000.html
14:47:05 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2022/08/12-pbgsc-minutes.html previous 12 August
14:57:42 <AvneeshSingh> AvneeshSingh has joined #pbgsc
14:57:43 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:59:08 <tzviya> present+
14:59:37 <Ralph> present+
14:59:51 <Ralph> present+ Daihei, Ivan
15:00:27 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbgsc
15:00:30 <Ralph> present+ Wolfgang, Liisa
15:01:09 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #pbgsc
15:01:50 <Ralph> scribe+
15:02:13 <dauwhe> present
15:02:13 <Ralph> Tzviya: Mateus has stepped down from PubCG chair; his job responsibilities have grown
15:02:19 <dauwhe> present+
15:02:22 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pbgsc
15:02:22 <wendyreid> regrets+
15:02:29 <Ralph> present+ Dauwhe
15:02:32 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pbgsc
15:02:33 <Ralph> present+ George
15:02:47 <liisamk_> liisamk_ has joined #pbgsc
15:03:19 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:03:19 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
15:03:20 <liisamk_> present+
15:03:34 <Ralph> topic: Salon
15:03:59 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2022Sep/0002.html "Digital Publishing Salon - Notes" [Wendy, 30-Sep]
15:04:06 <Ralph> Tzviya: we'd like to follow up on actions
15:04:16 <Ralph> ... we have areas to standardize, to collaborate, and to explore
15:04:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
15:04:22 <Ralph> ... your feedback?
15:04:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:04:40 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:04:41 <ivan> q+
15:04:43 <Ralph> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:04:46 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:04:54 <Ralph> Bill: I am amazed by the report; it's a masterful job
15:04:58 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #pbgsc
15:05:12 <Ralph> ... distilling the complicated and wide-ranging discussion into such a report is quite an accomplishment
15:05:14 <wolfgang> +1 to Bill
15:05:18 <GeorgeK> present+
15:05:21 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:05:22 <Ralph> Tzviya: thanks to Mateus' project management skills!
15:05:28 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:05:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:05:41 <Ralph> Ivan: I'm looking at the areas to standardize
15:06:06 <Ralph> ... a general feeling I have is that in contrast to what we did in the Publishing WG and the EPUB WG we should probably aim for smaller and more focused groups
15:06:35 <Ralph> ... the Publishing WG was trying to re-do the whole world and that's one of the reasons it became difficult to manage
15:07:00 <Ralph> ... e.g. digital signing and content verification is one item that is a problem for publishers and therefore has their interest
15:07:21 <Ralph> ... it is a relatively well-specifiable goal and therefore easier to represent in a charter
15:07:25 <tzviya> q+
15:07:28 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
15:07:41 <Ralph> ... [a dedicated group] for that is a better way to go
15:07:50 <Ralph> Avneesh: we have discussed these ideas for years
15:08:01 <Ralph> ... is our objective to float a charter?  if so, I'm nervious
15:08:22 <Ralph> ... if the objective is to float ideas in the community and see where there is most interest, I'm more comfortable
15:08:34 <wolfgang> s/nervious/nervous/
15:08:37 <Daihei_> Daihei_ has joined #pbgsc
15:08:43 <tzviya> ack me
15:08:47 <Ralph> ... if only a few people are passionate I don't think we'd be ready for a WG
15:09:07 <Ralph> Tzviya: there is already discussion in the CG about some of these; e.g. digital signing
15:09:19 <Ralph> ... it would take real effort to get it to something that is charter-ready
15:09:35 <Ralph> ... personally I think it would not be a good idea right now to create multiple groups
15:10:02 <Ralph> ... perhaps we could do something like what the CSS WG does; create different things (modules) related to Publishing
15:10:25 <Ralph> ... I'm not too concerned about having different documents we are working on as long as we figure out what goes into a charter
15:10:34 <liisamk_> q+
15:10:38 <tzviya> ack liisamk_
15:10:45 <Ralph> ... I do think it may be a good idea to be a little slower to charter but am concerned about losing traction
15:11:08 <Ralph> Liisa: we've talked about forming a "counterfeit task force" to look at what's happening on the ground that is requiring us to work on this type of validation
15:11:18 <Ralph> ... I have offered to lead that and hope to get it off the ground in the next month
15:11:37 <Ralph> ... Daihei and I have talked about driving some of the BG participants there to help with requirements
15:12:00 <ivan> q+
15:12:13 <GeorgeK> q+
15:12:19 <Ralph> ... I'm realizing that it's a bit daunting to anticipate months of conversation before the problem can be solved; this is a problem we need to solve now
15:12:46 <wolfgang> q+
15:13:10 <Ralph> Liisa: and I'm having trouble finding the agendas for CG meetings
15:13:35 <Ralph> Tzviya: as a publisher, I want my original version of a book to be the only one available for sale
15:13:39 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:13:44 <Ralph> ... I think we have a fairly good idea of what's happening
15:13:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:13:53 <Ralph> ... it shouldn't take months of discussion
15:14:28 <Ralph> Ivan: we need a bit more than what we have now; to go to a WG we need incubation to outline what the solutions may be
15:14:45 <Ralph> ... incubation doesn't have to produce a ready-made specification
15:15:00 <Ralph> ... something documented along the lines
15:15:19 <Ralph> ... that takes a few months with people with the necessary background knowledge, not a year
15:15:33 <Ralph> ... but we need that before going to a charter
15:15:56 <tzviya> ack GeorgeK
15:15:57 <Ralph> ... I'd like to go through all four of the standardization points too
15:16:20 <Ralph> George: the CG has announced task force(s) on accessibility
15:16:29 <Ralph> ... the cadence that the chair sets for a particular TF is really important
15:16:47 <Ralph> ... if the TF chair sets a monthly cadence it will take longer than if the TF chair sets a weekly cadence
15:16:58 <Ralph> ... a weekly cadence gets people more committed to a goal
15:17:50 <tzviya> q+ to talk about note vs working draft
15:17:51 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure if content verification is a WG thing; it might be a note
15:18:02 <tzviya> ack wolfgang
15:18:04 <Ralph> ... a best practice might have immediate impact on the industry
15:18:18 <Ralph> Wolfgang: TF meetings go out via the W3C Calendar
15:18:44 <Ralph> ... I get notices twice; that's a bit wierd
15:19:09 <Ralph> ... I'm ready to help set up the Counterfeit TF
15:19:30 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:19:37 <Ralph> Liisa: I'll reach out to you and we'll figure out how to get something set up
15:19:49 <Ralph> Bill: the work in the CG really happens in the task forces
15:20:05 <Ralph> ... there was a CG meeting on Wednesday and the A11y TF met on Thursday
15:20:22 <Ralph> ... you should be getting those notices
15:20:35 <Ralph> ... the CG meeting is mainly an update on what the task forces are doing
15:20:43 <Ralph> Wolfgang: absolutely correct
15:20:59 <Ralph> ... we need the TF reports for the CG meeting
15:21:12 <Ralph> ... we get those from the A11y TF and Education TF
15:21:32 <Ralph> BillK: both of those TFs are quite well populated
15:21:43 <tzviya> ack me
15:21:43 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about note vs working draft
15:21:54 <Ralph> Tzviya: I can also help get the Counterfeiting TF started if you want
15:22:25 <Ralph> ... on George's comment about a note, it can start as an editor's draft and eventually go to a WG if appropriate
15:22:51 <Ralph> ... if there's a potential solution out there, let's document it
15:23:11 <Ralph> Tzviya: digital books that can serve multiple modalities came up multiple times
15:23:25 <ivan> q+
15:23:26 <Ralph> ... using media queries and different style sheets for different media vs reflowable
15:23:30 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:23:31 <Ralph> ... is there interest in taking this up?
15:23:53 <Ralph> ... this is kind of like responsive web design, but for ebooks
15:24:05 <Ralph> ... e.g. a style sheet for small screens and a different one for large screens
15:24:12 <Ralph> ... this doesn't need a WG
15:24:18 <Ralph> Ivan: right; the technology is already there
15:24:37 <dauwhe> q+
15:24:37 <Ralph> Tzviya: or serving one layout to some reading systems and reflowable to others
15:24:42 <Ralph> Ivan: multiple renditions
15:24:45 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
15:25:02 <Ralph> Tzviya: we don't want to re-address multiple renditions but do we want to look at this further?
15:25:15 <Ralph> Dave: the HTML way of doing this would be different stylesheets
15:25:26 <ivan> q+
15:25:27 <Ralph> ... one stylesheet could present the content as reflowable
15:25:37 <tzviya> ack iv
15:25:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:25:45 <Ralph> ... sometimes with javascript tricks
15:25:51 <Ralph> ... who would use this?
15:26:09 <Ralph> Ivan: combining fixed layout with CSS so that you could use media queries seems a challenge
15:26:18 <Ralph> ... I'm skeptical that reading systems would accept this
15:26:39 <GeorgeK> q+
15:26:43 <Ralph> ... multiple rendition didn't make it but in a sense the question might be why not, and how might we improve things to make multiple rendition work?
15:27:01 <Ralph> ... in the CG the idea of multi-lingual books was raised again
15:27:08 <Ralph> ... that led to the question of multiple renditions again
15:27:31 <Ralph> ... I wasn't around when multiple renditions was worked on so I don't have those scars but maybe it's a way to move forward
15:27:38 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:28:00 <tzviya> ack GeorgeK
15:28:04 <Ralph> Bill: getting FXL and reflowable from the same HTML strikes me as a way to solve a11y challenges
15:28:17 <Ralph> George: is it a non-starter for a publisher to sell multiple versions of a book?
15:28:20 <Ralph> Dave: it happens
15:28:26 <Ralph> Tzviya: that's what often happens with FXL
15:28:51 <Ralph> ... there will be a FXL version and for some books there needs to be a reflowable version for something
15:28:56 <liisamk_> q+
15:29:02 <tzviya> ack liisamk_
15:29:05 <Ralph> George: so it's possible that at the time of purchase people could select one or the other?
15:29:16 <Ralph> Liisa: there's no retailer who supports that as an option
15:29:32 <Ralph> ... you can set up multiple SKUs, multiple versions, multiple price points
15:29:50 <Ralph> ... but most of what happens in the market is that people point to what they think is the optimal experience in the venue
15:29:57 <Ralph> ... and deal with support issues
15:30:14 <Ralph> Tzviya: managing the workflow is terrible from all perspectives
15:30:38 <Ralph> George: ok.  the same questions are being asked in the context of braille
15:30:59 <Ralph> Tzviya: in the library space there's more flexibility in what metadata users can see
15:31:11 <Ralph> Liisa: do we know where we want to try to continue this discussion?
15:31:17 <Ralph> ... is this a CG thing or a BG thing?
15:31:26 <Ralph> Ivan: I can't really separate the two in this case
15:31:39 <Ralph> ... the CG will discuss technical things without the business cases; that's bad
15:31:55 <Ralph> ... the BG will discuss business needs without the technical possibilities; that's also bad
15:32:02 <Ralph> ... we have to have joint task forces
15:32:09 <Ralph> <ralph> +1 to joint activities
15:32:32 <Ralph> Tzviya: serialization, delivering multiple content in the same publication
15:32:42 <Ralph> ... this could involve updating the content standards
15:32:57 <Ralph> ... this would involve buy-in from the publishers
15:33:07 <Ralph> ... e.g. Great Expectations delivered one chapter at a time
15:33:25 <liisamk_> q+
15:33:31 <Ralph> ... the way this works now in the retail space is that the chapters have to be delivered as separate EPUBs and also as one EPUB
15:33:47 <Ralph> ... we should be able to do this with metadata; purchase the whole file at once with timed releases
15:33:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:33:52 <Ralph> Ivan: it's not only metadata
15:34:05 <Ralph> ... it's the whole workflow from the publisher to the reader
15:34:33 <Ralph> ... the e-stores should be ready; they have to build in a mechanism to add chapters each month
15:34:37 <Ralph> Liisa: they do updates now
15:34:41 <tzviya> ack liisamk_
15:34:44 <Ralph> Ivan: they update the whole book
15:35:23 <Ralph> Liisa: Daihei and I are seeing, particularly in the Japanese manga space, they are trying to release early versions of chapters at the same time they go into magazines to combat piracy
15:35:41 <Ralph> ... we're going to be talking about that in our November BG meeting, hearing from folks in Japan
15:35:46 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:36:00 <Ralph> ... that may be a place to pick up information on what is happening out there now with serialization
15:36:26 <Ralph> Bill: it's also a case where subsequent content hasn't yet been created so it can't go into the initial package
15:36:38 <Ralph> ... I can see this as a very interesting use case for evolving content in general
15:36:50 <Ralph> Tzviya: building on that, all of the retailers allow for updates now
15:36:59 <Ralph> ... e.g. releasing chapters monthly
15:37:07 <Ralph> ... the retaliers' concern is losing annotations
15:37:18 <ivan> q+
15:37:31 <Ralph> ... when an update is released if the metadata says "this includes chapter 2", no retailer wil lhave an issue
15:37:52 <Ralph> ... but if [a customer's] annotations are lost, that is a problem
15:37:53 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:38:21 <Ralph> Ivan: I was surprised not to see addressibility and annotation issues among the areas to be standardized
15:38:32 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure that EPUB CFI solves the issues
15:38:53 <Ralph> ... if we move from XHTML to HTML, which we know we'll eventually have to do, at that point CFI will break down as it is XML-based
15:39:10 <Ralph> ... looking at addressibility as a possible new area of standardization is relevant
15:39:35 <Ralph> Tzviya: I think the conclusion of that discussion is that at the point in the future when CFI breaks down we can switch to web annotations
15:39:43 <Ralph> Ivan: yes, but it should be mentioned in this document
15:39:46 <dauwhe> q+
15:39:47 <liisamk_> +1 to taking up addressibility
15:40:08 <Ralph> Tzviya: what Wendy put into irc; this is not something publishing can do by itself
15:40:16 <Ralph> Ivan: same for crypto
15:40:22 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
15:40:31 <Ralph> Tzviya: for crypto we are signing EPUBs specifically
15:40:39 <Ralph> Dave: thinking about how change happens in EPUB ...
15:40:53 <Ralph> ... it seems probably the last big-ish change in EPUB's capabilities was FXL
15:41:11 <Ralph> ... that happened because a RS implemented something and then we standardized it
15:41:31 <Ralph> ... none of us has the millions of dollars it takes to make a cool idea into a reality
15:41:39 <Ralph> ... we've been down these roads many times
15:42:30 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'm hearing the discussions are around signing and content verification as they relate to counterfeit books will be taken up in a CG task force
15:42:51 <Ralph> s| task|/BG task
15:43:00 <Ralph> ... there's a lot of discussion about metadata
15:43:11 <Ralph> ... any discussion about that?
15:43:31 <Ralph> Ivan: like conference proceedings where you want per-article metadata?
15:43:41 <Ralph> Tzivya: author per chapter, or even more granular
15:43:52 <Ralph> ... a lot of this is quite accomplishable but we haven't done it yet
15:43:59 <Ralph> Dave: there are HTML methods for these things
15:44:41 <Ralph> Ivan: it's doable but from a technical POV while there are HTML techniques we have discrepancies between the rules in the metadata and the rules in the chapters
15:44:52 <Ralph> ... we might be forced to re-think the way the package-level metadata is produced
15:45:10 <Ralph> Tzviya: we're going to have such discrepancies
15:45:26 <Ralph> ... almost everything in a11y metadata can be applied at a very granular level if people choose
15:45:53 <liisamk_> q=
15:45:59 <liisamk_> q+
15:46:03 <Ralph> ... any volunteers?
15:46:17 <tzviya> ack liisamk_
15:46:18 <Ralph> ... should we send some of these requests for TF leads and use cases to the CG and solicit volunteers?
15:46:21 <wolfgang> q+
15:46:50 <Daihei_> +1 to Liisa
15:46:52 <tzviya> ack wolfgang
15:46:53 <Ralph> Liisa: maybe the next CG meeting could focus on the Salon results and see if people want to step up to offer expertise or leadership
15:47:15 <Ralph> Wolfgang: it might make sense to have a strategy session in the CG
15:47:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:47:31 <Ralph> ... go through the Salon report and see what gets traction
15:47:42 <Ralph> ... I'd like to learn how to set up a TF
15:47:54 <Ralph> Ivan: there are several here who can and will help with those practicalities
15:47:57 <Ralph> Woflgang: thanks
15:48:06 <Ralph> ... it makes sense to join forces between the CG and BG
15:48:22 <Daihei_> q+
15:48:26 <Ralph> ... if we raise the issue on both sides we may find joint TFs
15:48:38 <Ralph> Tzviya: the next CG meeting is 9 November
15:48:48 <Ralph> Wolfgang: yes; typically the second week of the month
15:49:09 <liisamk_> q+
15:49:10 <Ralph> Tzviya: that's a long time to wait; I'm willing to work with you on an email to get interest before then
15:49:14 <Ralph> Wolfgang: good idea
15:49:23 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:49:43 <wolfgang> +1 to Bill
15:49:49 <tzviya> ack Daihei_
15:49:52 <Ralph> Bill: we can also recruit from outside the CG and BG
15:50:46 <Ralph> Daihei: I agree with Woflgang; the BG can explore from the business side and we are hoping this will be explored more from the technical point of view
15:50:56 <Ralph> ... when we have mutual agenda it is very good
15:50:56 <tzviya> ack liisamk_
15:51:04 <Ralph> ... showing that we are on the same page
15:51:29 <Ralph> Liisa: we're drafting the BG agenda for the 25th; we could alter it a bit and introduce these topics to look at what the CG is doing
15:51:33 <Ralph> Daihei: yes
15:51:45 <Ralph> Tzviya: there are other things in the report listed as areas to explore:
15:51:51 <Ralph> ... divergence of publishing standards
15:51:58 <Ralph> ... communication about standards
15:52:05 <Ralph> ... privacy and security education for publishers
15:52:15 <Ralph> ... user participation
15:52:17 <Ralph> ... rights
15:52:28 <Ralph> ... look at the report
15:52:32 <Ralph> ... feedback is helpful
15:52:44 <Ralph> ... we need to use this report to help plan what we do next
15:53:18 <Ralph> ... thinking too specifically about "this is a business problem" or "this is a technical problem" can mean you never get the two together
15:53:26 <wolfgang> I suppose the concept of a use case is bridging business and technical aspects of an issue
15:53:37 <Ralph> ... things we can get to Rec Track soon are better; e.g. we need to solve the counterfeiting problem
15:53:59 <ivan> q+
15:54:01 <Ralph> ... if someone gets something implemented by retailers that's our goal
15:54:04 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:54:30 <Ralph> Ivan: a more general question: the discussions so far are about EPUB; is that OK?
15:54:54 <Ralph> ... we can massage things but with EPUB remaining as the framework
15:54:58 <Ralph> ... that's probably OK
15:55:07 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:55:07 <Ralph> ... but if we want to go somewhere else we need much more incubation
15:55:13 <Ralph> ... we haven't talked about that
15:55:28 <Ralph> Wendy: the Salon notes are not specific to EPUB
15:55:41 <Ralph> Tzviya: anything we do outside of EPUB requires a great deal of incubation
15:55:51 <Ralph> ... we don't know where things will go on digital signing
15:55:54 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
15:55:56 <Ralph> ... that's not specific to EPUB
15:56:02 <Ralph> ... we need to identify the problems
15:56:17 <Ralph> Avneesh: what Ivan is saying is both a blessing and a problem
15:56:46 <Ralph> ... we need one solvable problem to write into a charter
15:57:02 <Ralph> ... for other problems we can write drafts
15:57:18 <Ralph> ... if we have a generic Publishing WG we won't have to rush each thing
15:57:54 <Ralph> ... for the long-term strategy the right way forward is a Publishing WG with a thing we're working on and an open charter to incubate other things
15:58:12 <Ralph> Ivan: in the current W3C that's challenging; the CSS WG has a long history
15:58:36 <Ralph> ... I see problems to have such open-ended WGs
15:59:01 <Ralph> Tzviya: we'll have to think about how to propose this to the AC
15:59:09 <Ralph> ... I agree we should have goals to work on things that are not EPUB
15:59:22 <Ralph> ... in my mind the overarching goal is to slowly evolve EPUB to something larger
15:59:37 <Ralph> ... there are a lot of notes on things not specific to EPUB; archiving, annotations, version control
15:59:42 <ivan> q+
15:59:48 <Ralph> George: NISO has an archiving proposal for EPUB
15:59:54 <Ralph> Tzviya: why are they working on it there?
16:00:05 <Ralph> ... it's pretty frustrating
16:00:21 <Ralph> Ivan: we need to followup on this discussion
16:00:33 <Ralph> ... should we have an additional SC call before then?
16:00:47 <Ralph> Tzviya: we have our 4th Friday placeholder meeting
16:00:50 <Ralph> Ivan: +1
16:01:00 <Ralph> action: ralph schedule 28 Oct SC meeting
16:01:15 <Ralph> [adjourned]
16:01:19 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
16:01:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, tzviya, Ralph, Daihei, Ivan, Wolfgang, Liisa, dauwhe, George, liisamk_, Bill_Kasdorf, GeorgeK
16:01:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:01:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/14-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
16:01:24 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:01:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc