16:51:02 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:51:02 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/13-aria-irc 16:51:04 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:51:07 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 16:51:10 meeting: ARIA WG 16:51:14 chair: jamesNurthen 16:51:47 regrets+ AdamPage 16:51:55 regrets+ CurtBellew 16:52:01 agendabot, find agenda 16:52:01 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 16:52:02 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20221013T130000 16:52:02 clear agenda 16:52:02 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3T9FMms 16:52:02 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3enpUxX 16:52:04 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 16:52:07 agenda+ -> Should an img with no src be mapped to role=img? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/439 16:52:10 agenda+ -> AccName Role Traversal Proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821 16:52:13 agenda+ -> Should aria-hidden be effected by aria-owns? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1818 16:52:16 agenda+ -> [normative][author] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793 16:52:19 agenda+ -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 16:52:22 agenda+ -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+ 16:54:29 regrets+ MichaelC 16:58:20 chlane has joined #aria 16:59:01 agenda? 16:59:06 pkra has joined #aria 16:59:24 StefanS has joined #aria 16:59:47 present+ 17:00:01 present+ 17:00:02 present+ 17:00:18 scotto has joined #aria 17:02:06 scribe: chlane 17:02:13 zakim, next item 17:02:13 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3T9FMms -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:03:21 jamesn: timescale for milestones 17:03:41 present+ 17:03:42 aam #149 17:04:13 focus in editors meeting 17:04:27 valerie, put a year on it 17:05:04 scotto: would be happy to agenda it 17:05:13 spectranaut has joined #aria 17:05:13 people want to fix this it is unclear what to do 17:05:17 no guidance 17:05:21 present+ 17:05:30 specs are contradicting 17:05:43 amm 146 17:05:55 jamesn: remove these from core aam? 17:06:03 definitions that don't exist in spec 17:06:09 valerie will merge 17:06:13 pr 147 17:06:22 aam #145 editorial 17:06:31 jamesn: review 17:06:39 #173 slot element 17:06:43 aria label issue 17:06:57 jamesn: agrees safaria and ff are correct 17:07:03 this is accname issue 17:07:17 we don't specify what happens? 17:07:35 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria 17:07:37 how should an aria label on a slot be treated 17:07:38 present+ 17:07:39 ? 17:08:00 scotto: happy to take on been thinking about prohibited names 17:08:15 slot should not be interacted with or introduce content to a11y API 17:08:24 new category of name NOT supported 17:08:35 jamesn: would be another 17:08:38 meta tags 17:08:57 scotto: add as formal section to accname in aam 17:09:11 #1829 aria 17:09:55 scotto: from IBM, topic has come up before with them, general confusion about how 'generic' is supposed to be exposed 17:10:16 divs, sometimes exposed as generic other times ignored 17:10:25 conformance checker folks 17:10:42 need guidance 17:11:19 jamesn: assinging for opinion to schne324 17:11:38 scotto: happy to contribute not the person to own 17:11:54 #439 aam 17:12:04 should an img with no src map to img 17:12:12 jamesn: on agenda 17:12:26 zakim, next item 17:12:26 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3enpUxX -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:13:05 jongund has joined #aria 17:14:25 pr #1830, reviewers added 17:14:47 #1827 pr similar 17:16:07 zakim, next item 17:16:07 agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:16:30 zakim, next item 17:16:30 agendum 3 was just opened, chlane 17:16:45 zakim, close this item 17:16:45 agendum 3 closed 17:16:46 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:16:46 4. -> Should an img with no src be mapped to role=img? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/439 [from agendabot] 17:16:49 zakim, next item 17:16:49 agendum 4 -- -> Should an img with no src be mapped to role=img? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/439 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:17:04 aam #439 17:17:12 img with no src 17:17:18 and no alt 17:17:31 browsers do different things 17:17:57 safari is correct, chrome and ff should change 17:18:09 they should not render anything for this case 17:18:44 scotto: there are instances without a src that do have alt text and people add css background images 17:19:09 jamesn: if alt text is set to non empty it should be exposed as an image per the spec 17:19:38 scotto:if alt is meaningful it should be exposed 17:19:54 jamesn: it shouldnt' break 17:20:15 jamesn: Id be happy with changes to aam 17:20:26 jcraig: include spacer giv 17:20:31 spacer gif 17:20:42 scotto: put src=# 17:20:57 jamesn: src='' would be removed 17:21:26 jamesn: browser inconsistency, we are attemptimg to make it work the same which is good 17:21:29 s/include spacer giv/author workaround is to include a url-encoded spacer gif 17:21:46 s/include spacer giv/author workaround is to include a url-encoded spacer gif/ 17:22:04 pkra: not having src? is that a hack? 17:22:11 scotto: probably author error 17:22:36 jamesn: templates can provide empty src='' 17:22:57 s/not having src? is that a hack?/not having src? is that a technique for lazy loading the image (post DOM load)?/ 17:23:23 scotto: question for group,,, do we have a preference to indicate generic or presentation 17:23:26 ? 17:23:40 img set to presentation with empty string, is that a good idea? 17:23:47 should it be generic instead? 17:24:29 img broken auther added alt text but role presentation caused it to be pruned from the a11y API 17:24:58 scotto: is this a way to set role to img, or to generic, or to none 17:25:26 Matt: how can you have 2 roles? 17:25:30 3 situiations 17:25:42 alt provided but empty -> one 17:26:10 what role should be for img that doesn't have a src? 17:26:18 jamesn: just do not map this at all? 17:26:33 scotto: usaully applied to things we don't have roles for 17:26:39 img could map to none 17:26:46 jamesn: concerned about none 17:26:56 that is the same as alt='' 17:27:07 no src, HTML says it's nothing 17:27:40 jamesn: the case is not a 'decorative image' it 'does not exist to anybody', img with no 'src' 17:27:55 jamesn: generic is better than none 17:27:58 matt: why 17:28:05 it putis it in the tree 17:28:30 matt; presentation image is NOT in the tree, that is what we want 17:28:40 jamesn: I don't want it in the tree 17:28:57 people asking for more info on presentation elements 17:29:10 jamesn: concerned about adding extra things 17:29:23 matt; browsers cant correct, no src 17:29:41 scotto: tabindex-0 makes it generic 17:29:54 Matt: feels like author error 17:30:00 zakim, agenda? 17:30:00 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 17:30:01 4. -> Should an img with no src be mapped to role=img? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/439 [from agendabot] 17:30:01 5. -> AccName Role Traversal Proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821 [from agendabot] 17:30:01 6. -> Should aria-hidden be effected by aria-owns? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1818 [from agendabot] 17:30:02 7. -> [normative][author] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793 [from agendabot] 17:30:04 8. -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 [from agendabot] 17:30:04 9. -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+ [from agendabot] 17:30:09 putting it in the tree with generic makes no sense 17:30:19 there is no src, no image 17:31:06 jamesn: if theres a broken src, browsers will try to render text 17:31:15 jamesn: no text in this case 17:31:18 no alt text 17:31:52 scotto: chromium firefox, src is absent or '' nothing renders 17:32:05 any character will render a broken img tag 17:32:38 happens on firefox, not chromium, FF looks like a peice of paper torn in half 17:32:45 jongund has joined #aria 17:32:55 Matt if I forgot to put src and using FF 17:33:06 i would't get role none 17:33:19 jamesn: no src, it does not render 17:33:55 jamesn: webkit is rendering img 17:35:39 jcraig: if different than windows we may not be decided 17:35:55 jamesn: good way of moving forward 17:36:17 Matt_King has joined #aria 17:36:25 siri has joined #aria 17:36:32 zakim, next item 17:36:32 agendum 5 -- -> AccName Role Traversal Proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:36:47 present+ 17:37:19 jamesn: don't understand why the focusable concept 17:37:56 focusable elements, logic to traverse the roles 17:38:14 some roles would be exposed regardless 17:38:29 constructs that shouldnt be included 17:38:46 jamesn: can we move to something that is always traversable or not? 17:39:11 matt: is there something in accname about menu button inside a heading 17:39:43 bryan: accname specificed 2h to 2x.i it would include everthing 17:39:55 i don' think that is useful 17:40:09 matt: accname stops at groups 17:40:24 content of group in treeitem won't be in the name 17:40:37 bryan, in accname it does not stop 17:40:37 jongund has joined #aria 17:40:43 jamesn: it does not stop 17:40:50 bryan 17:41:00 changed 2f.i to 2f 17:41:09 was told to put it back 17:41:19 algo skips initial statement 17:41:37 jamesn: name from content too restrictive 17:41:54 mirror what browsers do 17:42:03 can we come up with a list 17:42:08 of traversals 17:43:27 bryan, how do you deal with that in the ARIA spec to sync the accname spec 17:43:41 jamesn: why not work on that latert 17:44:10 jamesn: doesn't have to be the end state 17:44:26 make it more correct today 17:46:17 bryan: spec bypasses conditional statement 17:46:29 the accname spec 17:47:02 some devs are interpeting that the beginning of F is ignored 17:47:46 there is nothing in aria that supports ... 17:48:26 jamesn: clarify that conditional is always checked at FI 17:48:57 jamesn: we need something new to determine if a role is traversable 17:49:37 jamesn: divs for example, you want to traverse a generic, but currently it is not allowed 17:49:47 which is wrong 17:50:06 jamesn: if it isn't name from author only 17:50:15 don't traverse 17:50:33 scotto: if no name, you maybe still have to traverse 17:51:04 link that contains an

with no name returns a link with no a11y name 17:51:30 jamesn: if parent focusable and no accessible name should drill in 17:51:38 scotto: both are necessary 17:51:49 jamesn: is this just error correction 17:52:31 jamesn: maybe article should allow name from content 17:52:54 bryan it could be anything like a table 17:53:14 table does not support name from content 17:53:26 jamesn: like to make some progress 17:53:36 bryan need help with proposal 17:53:57 addresses, never always 17:54:05 and focusable 17:54:49 jcraig: will discuss with bryan 17:55:00 zakim, next item 17:55:00 agendum 6 -- -> Should aria-hidden be effected by aria-owns? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1818 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:56:48 jamesn: hidden is looking at 'ownership' rather than dom ownership 17:57:14 scotto: modal dialog, pops up and live regions didn't work because they were inert 17:57:45 aria-owns could pull the live region in the dialog 17:58:05 scotto: could solve this now 17:58:55 matt, more than one way to go 17:59:12 make owns take precedence over hidden 17:59:36 owns references a child of something hidden 18:00:12 scotto: like aria-labelledby describeby referencing hidden content 18:00:28 matt if hidden left it out of tree 18:00:47 chromium marks it hidden and webkit leaves it out of tree? 18:01:00 jcraig: it would not work as intended 18:01:11 jcraig: to follow owns tree 18:01:27 a cross reference not a move in the tree 18:01:39 plan to adopt new meaning of aria-owns 18:01:59 not implemented in safari until other ownership change happens 18:03:37 zakim, end meeting 18:03:37 As of this point the attendees have been pkra, chlane, StefanS, scotto, spectranaut, MarkMcCarthy, Matt_King 18:03:40 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:03:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/13-aria-minutes.html Zakim 18:03:43 I am happy to have been of service, chlane; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:03:47 Zakim has left #aria 18:09:22 bkardell_ has joined #aria 18:14:24 jongund has joined #aria 18:35:03 quit 18:35:05 exit 18:35:07 quit 18:35:17 jongund has joined #aria 18:59:53 jongund has joined #aria 19:00:46 zakim, end meeting 19:40:47 jongund has joined #aria 19:45:20 jongund has joined #aria 21:07:28 jongund has joined #aria 21:07:39 jongund has joined #aria 21:32:50 jongund has joined #aria 22:47:09 jongund has joined #aria 23:00:02 jongund has joined #aria 23:15:31 jongund has joined #aria 23:26:07 jongund has joined #aria 23:47:45 jongund has joined #aria 23:49:52 jongund has joined #aria