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19:02:49 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
19:02:58 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
19:03:01 <Matt_King> present+
19:03:07 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
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19:03:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/13-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
19:03:58 <Sam_PAC> present+
19:04:16 <Matt_King> present+ James_Scholes
19:04:25 <Matt_King> present+ Isabel
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19:11:02 <Matt_King> TOPIC: ARIA-AT App Updates
19:12:05 <Matt_King> Seth: The app and repo now support up to 26 commands per test.
19:12:12 <Matt_King> Previously limited to 5.
19:12:35 <Matt_King> So, now breadcrumb needs retesting b/c it had a 6th command in some tests.
19:12:53 <Matt_King> The candidate review queue is delayed a week.
19:13:06 <Matt_King> We failed to include Bocoup all hands meeting in plan.
19:14:10 <Matt_King> Expect the update for candidate review will be in sandbox by end of next week.
19:15:00 <Matt_King> Matt: could some part of it be in sandbox by wednesday morning?
19:15:38 <Matt_King> Seth: some portion could be available by wednesday morning.
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19:17:38 <Matt_King> Seth: Deployed multiple performance improvements on Friday.
19:18:13 <Matt_King> Page loads were taking long time b/c data was being computed at time of page request.
19:18:27 <Matt_King> Howard worked on system that pre-computes a lot of the data.
19:18:37 <Matt_King> This improves both page loads and stability.
19:18:59 <Matt_King> App feels much snappier and James Craig confirmed his experience is fixed.
19:19:20 <Matt_King> Michael: Is there risk of perf degradation as we add more data?
19:19:45 <Matt_King> Seth: Due to precomputation, experience is better regardless of data volume.
19:20:18 <Matt_King> However, we still see more opportunities related to versions of tests that are no longer being used.
19:20:40 <Matt_King> Other thing is that W3C I/T team re-sized the server.
19:20:52 <Matt_King> That could be another option in the future.
19:21:44 <Matt_King> Seth: Howard deployed partial fix for test plan updater.
19:22:19 <Matt_King> Think it might be fixed, but there is still some doubt regarding the option that allows keeping old data.
19:22:43 <Matt_King> James: There are some situations where we have dumped all data.
19:22:55 <Matt_King> Sometimes we do need to keep the data.
19:23:13 <Matt_King> Seth: we still may need to make some improvements there.
19:24:58 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Implications of toggle button feedback
19:25:28 <Matt_King> James: our tests require that the not press state be voiced. VO on macOS does not do that.
19:26:21 <Matt_King> Apple concerned that aria-at might be working toward making speech congruity instead of interoperability.
19:27:56 <Matt_King> Matt: we are not striving for homogenaity. Example: if VO said toggle off, that would pass, right?
19:28:03 <Matt_King> James: yes
19:28:24 <Matt_King> We don't say how the state needs to be conveyed.
19:33:11 <Matt_King> Matt: I'm still OK with trying to move forward with the original position that the not pressed state should be voiced.
19:33:30 <Matt_King> Temperature check with others: are others still on board with this.
19:34:26 <Matt_King> Michael: I still support the position, more concerned about consistency between macOS and iOS.
19:34:57 <Matt_King> Matt: they may fix that by changing iOS.
19:35:06 <Matt_King> Alysa: I hope not.
19:35:36 <Matt_King> Seth k: more concerned about distinguishing button from toggle.
19:36:00 <Matt_King> James: they have different roles.
19:36:45 <Matt_King> However, there are selectable buttons in the apple ecosystem where it is not possible to know that a button is a toggle and that activating the button just selects it.
19:37:34 <Matt_King> Seth K: Can't think of other controls where two different elements have same feel but different behaviors.
19:37:50 <Matt_King> James: maybe grid vs table.
19:38:25 <Matt_King> The larger concern I have that it does not seem to consider the feedback of real screen reader users.
19:38:57 <Matt_King> The position of not speaking not pressed.
19:40:03 <Matt_King> Michael: From my POV, not speaking not pressed is not ideal, but as long as it is consistent across Apple platforms, it might not be a serious problem.
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19:42:16 <Matt_King> Matt: my biggest concernis not speaking state change
19:42:45 <Matt_King> James: there are other examples of speaking state changes to states that are not announced.
19:43:32 <Matt_King> Seth K: But, that is a user-made verbosity choice
19:44:23 <Matt_King> James: I agree with the state change concern as well as inconsistency with checkbox and switch.
19:44:38 <Matt_King> And, my tertiary concernis the cognitive load.
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19:47:58 <Matt_King> Seth K: there are other ways to do this; doesn't have to be verbal.
19:48:16 <Matt_King> example: TalkBack indicates links with a earcon.
19:48:30 <Matt_King> Alysa: as long is there a way to convery that on braille display.
19:48:54 <Matt_King> With Talkback, is is in apps, not on web where it uses the earcons.
19:49:26 <Matt_King> James: If apple has concerns about verbosity, that is where audio indicators, like earcons.
19:54:08 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
19:54:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/13-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
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