14:02:28 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 14:02:28 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-irc 14:03:51 meeting: WoT-WG TD-TF 14:04:04 JKRhb has joined #wot-td 14:04:14 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Daniel_Peintner,Jan_Romann, Michael_McCool 14:04:21 dape has joined #wot-td 14:04:39 McCool_ has joined #wot-td 14:05:20 scribenick: JKRhb 14:06:44 topic: Minutes Approval 14:07:13 present+ Klaus_Hartke, Sebastian_Kaebisch 14:07:36 cris_ has joined #wot-td 14:07:40 -> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/28-wot-td-minutes.html Sep-28 14:07:59 ek: (adds a comment to the ScribeRoll page in the Wiki stating that people who haven't attended for a long time are "spared" from taking minutes the first time) 14:08:00 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 14:08:10 zakim, who is on the call? 14:08:10 Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Romann, Michael_McCool, Klaus_Hartke, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Cristiano_Aguzzi 14:08:46 ... (goes over the minutes from the previous meeting, which was two weeks ago) 14:09:28 https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/185 14:12:12 ... under "Update Policy" there are square brackets around a citation, is that normal? 14:12:25 kaz: That is normal as it is a quote 14:12:40 ek: Any objections to publishing the minutes? 14:12:47 There are none, minutes are approved. 14:13:00 zakim, who is on the call? 14:13:00 Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Romann, Michael_McCool, Klaus_Hartke, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Cristiano_Aguzzi 14:13:26 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 14:13:40 topic: Binding Template PRs 14:13:50 subtopic: PR #179 14:14:02 ek: About MQTT topic names and filters 14:14:12 ... there was a comment by Cristiano 14:14:58 i|About|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/179 PR 179 - Explain topicname and filter| 14:15:01 ... TopicName is now used for subscriptions while TopicFilter is used for publishing since here, wildcards can be used 14:15:19 ca: We can merge 14:15:26 PR is merged 14:15:38 subtopic: PR #190 14:16:14 ek: This PR aligns the abstracts of Binding Template documents 14:16:35 q+ 14:16:56 i|This PR ali|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/190 14:16:58 ... the PR takes the abstracts by Cristiano as a reference point 14:18:00 sebastian has joined #wot-td 14:18:05 q+ 14:18:05 kaz: I personally think that is would be easier to manage the content if we took all of these protocol-specific documents into the main document. This would make separate abstracts obsolete 14:18:42 s/that is would/it would/ 14:18:47 ack k 14:19:02 s/190/190 - Align protocol binding abstracts/ 14:19:44 ek: The current state is what we agreed on, since it should be easier to manage if we do it like this. But we can continue the discussion after this PR. 14:20:10 ack s 14:20:50 ek: Jan left some comments, which I will incorporate. Two refer to the MQTT, which is not actually an abbreviation anymore. 14:20:53 q+ 14:21:36 ek: In general, the template now includes a basic abstract structure which I adapted for the CoAP Binding Template. 14:21:53 q+ 14:22:08 ca: I like the structure, I think we should go ahead 14:22:27 ack c 14:22:42 ek: I also removed links from the abstracts since the abstract might appear in places like Google Scholar 14:23:15 sk: It could make sense to include a reference to the main Binding Template document 14:24:02 ca: We could have an additional link to the main document in the top/RefSpec section 14:24:12 ack s 14:24:32 mm: Adding links to the abstract is not a good idea 14:24:44 ek: Cristiano was referring to the RefSpec section 14:25:18 q+ 14:25:21 s/RefSpec/ReSpec/ 14:25:43 q+ 14:26:34 q+ 14:27:09 ek: Now we can come back to Kaz's point. I think I would disagree, since it is more comfortable for the reader since they can simply go the document that is of interest to them. Also, it is also easier to manage for us since individual Binding Templates can have their own specific Editor's who maintain it. 14:28:32 kaz: Users do not really understand the current mechanism for using a Binding Template. We should better explain the mechanism in general and with regard to specific protocols like MQTT. 14:29:28 +1 kaz 14:29:34 q+ 14:29:34 ek: The actual protocol binding happens in the forms member of an interaction affordance. Maybe we should have a better guideline here. 14:31:27 kaz: We could use Hyperlinks or include other documents via the merge approach that is also used in the HTML document 14:32:17 ek: Separate documents would make it easier to follow changes and is easier to maintain in my opinion 14:33:07 q? 14:33:08 kaz: Version management can be done via GitHub and ReSpec 14:33:20 ek: I am thinking more about the reader 14:33:33 sk: I agree with Ege here 14:33:57 ... we had everything in one document before and it was a confusing mess 14:34:28 ... now we have self-contained documents 14:35:09 ... keep also in mind that we will have additional protocols in the future, which would make the single-document approach even more overwhelming 14:35:52 kaz: However, in the end we would like to have specific protocol bindings using RDF 14:36:33 ... currently, there is a lot of redundancy as each document has its own header, abstract, etc. 14:36:35 dape_ has joined #wot-td 14:37:15 sk: Ontologies are additional documents 14:37:31 ... We should only refer to existing definitions of terms 14:37:57 ek: I will open an issue for recording additional opinions 14:38:18 ca: I am also in favor of keeping separate documents 14:38:36 q+ 14:38:42 ack k 14:38:43 ack c 14:38:43 ... the problem of repetition is dealt with by your PR, Ege 14:38:47 ack s 14:38:52 q+ 14:39:17 ... furthermore, the protocols require specific introductions 14:40:38 mm: I think we should move on and keep it as is if we don't have a good reason to revert it. Both approaches have pros and cons. As long as we have a single master document we can refer to, I am fine with the current solution 14:41:56 kaz: We might also want to the use a Registry Track document which refers to protocol-specific documents 14:43:28 subtopic: PR #176 14:43:45 ek: This PR deals with the Modbus URI design 14:45:08 ... the question here is how the href should be used. Matthias commented that if a protocol does not define a URI scheme we can define one ourselves 14:45:31 s/PR #176/PRs #176 and #183/ 14:45:35 s/specific documents/specific terms instead of (or in addition to) generating those protocol-specific sub documents./ 14:46:25 ca: The URI now includes parameters such as quantity and unitID 14:46:44 q+ 14:46:52 ack m 14:46:54 ack k 14:47:49 ek: I had some discussions with people at Siemens that said it makes sense in general (since it corresponds with the REST design) and that it also makes it easier for humans to read 14:48:39 ca: This new design also makes it easier to use a base URL 14:49:06 ... however, we are sacrificing some readability in this case 14:49:30 q+ 14:49:35 ek: This also corresponds with MQTT where we could use a similar approach 14:50:00 q? 14:50:24 rrsagent, make log public 14:50:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:50:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:50:58 sk: I understand the motivation and I also support this approach also in contrast to the one we had before 14:51:40 ... if we only use a URI-based approach, however, we would give up some readability 14:51:43 chair: Ege/Sebastian 14:52:02 ... we also run into problems with WebSockets 14:52:25 s/- Align/PR 190 - Align/ 14:52:32 q+ 14:52:49 ... we should be able to specify parameters both in the href and the TD 14:53:11 i/Now we can come back to/subtopic: Kaz's question about the structure of the Binding Templates documents/ 14:53:18 ack s 14:53:20 ack d 14:53:39 dp: I agree with Sebastian, having everything in the href makes things more consistent. However, we should focus on one approach 14:54:19 ... href might be complicated for more complex parameters, but in general I would favor it over the TD approach 14:54:51 ca: Currently we have a mixed approach, where we are not consistent between different protocols 14:55:02 s/in the end we would like to have specific protocol bindings using RDF/in the end, we would like to define protocol-specific vocabulary using those documents, and I thought we wanted to have a machine-readable data for that purpose as well./ 14:55:15 ... in general, I think we should be consistent with the HTTP approach 14:56:12 ... this also brings us back to the problem we had with MQTT and the question of how to express topic names, for example 14:56:32 subtopic: PR #188 14:56:34 s/header, abstract, etc./header, abstract, status, etc., and probably it would be better to have the actual content as a section within the main Binding Templates document, and refer to machine-readable vocabulary outside, e.g., as an ontology./ 14:57:09 ek: This is a PR opened by Klaus regarding CoAP Content Negotiation 14:58:01 s/We might also want to the use a Registry Track document which refers to protocol-specific terms/I thought we wanted to use the Registry Track to define protocol-specific terms/ 14:58:22 kh: I am afraid 4 minutes are not enough to discuss it. I would really like to make progress here, since it is an open issue for several months now. Maybe we could have a separate meeting to discuss this. 14:58:45 ek: I will organize a separate meeting so that we can discuss this in more detail 14:59:14 ... I would postpone the rest of the topics to the next meeting 14:59:25 s/instead of (or in addition to) generating those protocol-specific sub documents./However, it might make more sense to refer to protocol-specif terms defined by an ontology or registry from one consolidated Binding Templates document, which describes the mechanism of WoT binding clearly./ 14:59:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:59:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:00:03 topic: Updates to the TD editors list 15:00:54 sk: The editors for TD version 1.1 have changed due to changes in company affiliation etc. 15:01:16 ... we should update the list and add a new list for former editors 15:01:53 ... I would also propose Ege as a new editor since he was very active and made a lot of contributors 15:02:14 +1 15:02:15 +1 15:02:17 ... we already discussed this in the chairs call and Michael McCool also agreed we this 15:02:19 +1 15:02:28 q+ 15:02:35 ack c 15:02:57 sk: Should we make a resolution for this, Kaz? 15:03:09 kaz: Yes, please go ahead. 15:03:39 mlagally___ has joined #wot-td 15:03:39 ... you could clarify the policy regarding Editors and former Editors in this regard 15:03:45 zakim, who is on the call? 15:03:45 Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Romann, Michael_McCool, Klaus_Hartke, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Tomoaki_Mizushima 15:04:03 i|This PR deals|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/176 Issue 176 - [Modbus] URI design for modbus+tcp URI schemes| 15:04:15 sk: I would move Michael, Takuki, and Victor to the former editors list 15:04:28 mm: Do we have a certain order? 15:04:43 sk: I would propose me first, then Michael McCool, then Ege 15:04:54 i|This PR deals|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/183 PR 183 - feat(modbus): move addres and quantity to URL components| 15:05:11 q? 15:06:14 kaz: We should clarify the policy and then include the list of contributors 15:07:37 scribenick: Ege 15:08:01 proposal: add Ege to the editor list. Move former editors to the former editor sections. 15:08:26 q+ 15:09:25 sk: do you mean we should add cristiano 15:09:34 kaz: do we want to add ege this time or think about other candidates 15:09:54 mm: we are looking at the contributions 15:10:07 s/add ege/add only Ege/ 15:10:16 s/candidates/candidates as well?/ 15:10:28 q+ 15:10:31 ack k 15:11:06 kaz: I do not oppose adding Ege 15:11:17 sk: we should be fair with this. Ege seems to be over the "bar" 15:11:39 a/adding Ege/adding Ege, but we have a clear policy./ 15:13:15 ca: we should set up a policy. It is difficult to set such a bar 15:13:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:13:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:13:37 q? 15:13:41 resolution: add Ege to the editor list. Move former editors to the former editor sections. We will discuss if we to introduce a contributor list. list. 15:13:43 mm: let's add ege and get that out of the way for now 15:13:43 ack 15:13:46 ack c 15:14:27 q+ 15:14:32 ack E 15:15:28 ek: respec has both options, author is needed for some SDOs 15:16:32 s/if we to/if we 15:17:05 kaz: the current solution is fine, we should continue discussion about policy 15:17:48 s/PRs #176 and #183/Issue #176 and PR #183/ 15:18:38 s/terms However/terms. However/ 15:20:07 s|binding clearly.|binding clearly. I got a comment from PLH suggesting we look into the other group's approach on protocol-specific terms, e.g., Distributed Tracing WG's work on MQTT: https://github.com/w3c/trace-context-mqtt| 15:20:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:20:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:21:41 i|This is a PR opened by|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/188 PR 188 - Define CoAP Content Negotiation| 15:22:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:22:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:23:28 s/fine, we should/fine but we should/ 15:23:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:23:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:23:34 ml: so there are two issues here 15:24:16 ml: first, we should not link to an informative note 15:24:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:24:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:24:53 s|a/adding Ege/|s/adding Ege/| 15:24:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:24:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:25:10 q? 15:25:12 ack k 15:25:14 ... two, we should refer to binding only once, currently we have it in the informative references as well 15:25:16 q+ 15:25:28 q+ 15:26:59 sk: i was mistaken to say that we had the same in 1.0, we extended here 15:27:17 i/so there are two issues/topic: Issue 1722/ 15:27:48 i|so there are two issues|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1722 wot-thing-description Issue 1722 - Normative assertion points to informative binding template note which is WIP| 15:27:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:27:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:28:53 s/topic: Issue 1722/topic: TD Issue 1722/ 15:29:08 q? 15:29:10 ack s 15:29:13 ack c 15:29:35 sk: you can look into td 1.0 to see how it is there 15:31:11 ml: we are referring to a definition in the architecture, which is an informative section 15:32:01 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2020/REC-wot-thing-description-20200409/#protocol-bindings WoT Thing Description REC - 8.3 Protocol Bindings 15:32:46 -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#protocol-bindings WoT Thing Description 1.1 WD - 8.3 Protocol Bindings 15:32:51 ca: actually, this resulted from a long discussion. So it is like reverting a bug fix 15:32:55 q+ 15:33:11 ml: I actually do not understand what is meant with this assertion 15:33:56 please see https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1720 15:34:13 sk: This is explained in the Arch specification. Also, it is explained in the binding templates 15:34:37 sk: what would be the way forward? 15:34:47 ml: to change the text so that is understandable 15:34:50 s/please see/->/ 15:34:57 s/1720/1720 PR 1720 - update 8.3 Protocol Bindings section/ 15:35:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:35:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:36:24 sk: There is a PR linked in IRC 15:36:28 ml: this is looking good 15:38:00 q? 15:39:04 q+ 15:39:08 ml: we should make sure that there is no reference to the binding templates document in a normative assertion 15:39:24 kaz: we should review the references to the binding templates 15:39:44 (sorry, I need to drop...) 15:41:32 s/we should review the references to the binding templates/to be strict, we should review the references to the binding templates, and also clarify the relationship among related specs, e.g., TD vs Binding. Probably it's too late to add drastic changes from now, but we should think about that for the next Charter./ 15:41:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:41:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:43:48 ml: we should have a stable reference to the binding in the CR version 15:43:56 q? 15:43:57 ack k 15:44:02 ack ml 15:44:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:44:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:44:07 ek: also we seem to have discovery as informative 15:45:58 I have to leave 15:46:42 s/about that for/about how to improve the situation for/ 15:46:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:46:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:47:03 sk: we have a PR to change td schema 15:47:11 ek: we can close it, there is one that superseeds it 15:47:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:47:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:48:16 subtopic: PR 1698 15:48:46 dp: it became too verbose. I have another PR that does something a bit less that seems to be accepted 15:48:47 q| 15:48:47 q+ 15:48:49 s/q|// 15:49:50 s/PR to change/topic: PR1683/ 15:50:24 s|PR to change|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1683 PR 1683 - Change to tm optional in validation| 15:50:34 subtopic: PR 1700 15:50:53 sk: so you have added a class attribute for json examples, nice 15:50:58 i|it become|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1698 PR 1698 - style: align formatting for examples| 15:50:58 ... we can merge it 15:51:29 i|so you have|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1700 PR 1700 - fix: syntax highlighting of example 4, 51, 52, 60, 61, 65, 66, and 71| 15:51:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:51:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:51:40 q? 15:51:42 ack k 15:52:10 sk: there is a conflict? 15:52:14 dp: I will solve it 15:52:22 s/there is/subtopic: PR 1710/ 15:52:24 subtopic: PR 1710 15:53:34 i|there is a conflict|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1710 PR 1710 - Consistent code/example formatting w.r.t. : 15:53:40 s/subtopic: PR 1710// 15:53:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:53:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:53:45 s/there is no reference to the binding templates document in a normative assertion/there is no reference to the binding templates document in a normative assertion. I was told it is only used in examples, but there are other occurrences. We have to do a thorough check of the entire document/ 15:55:41 subtopic: PR 1711 15:56:59 s/1711/1712/ 15:57:20 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1712 PR 1712 - Add table numbers and captions using new respec option| 15:57:24 s/option|// 15:57:43 ek: talked with ReSpec guys but still need more time 15:57:53 sk: can wait until the next Charter period 15:58:00 subtopic: PR 1715 15:58:14 ek: only changes to the json files, nothing for index.html 15:58:33 i|only|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1715 PR 1715 - Add model and prohibit instance in tm schema| 15:59:18 subtopic: PR 1717 15:59:45 sk: for TMs, we have 433 coap content format now 15:59:49 i/1717/(merged)/ 15:59:53 ... td is 432 16:00:13 i|for TMs|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1717 PR 1717 - CoAP Content-Format number| 16:01:00 (merged) 16:01:03 subtopic: PR 1720 16:01:48 i/1720/subtopic: PR 1718/ 16:01:53 sk: this fixes michael lagally's point on the issue 1718 16:01:55 i/1720/sk: let's discuss this next week/ 16:02:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:03:27 sk: adjourned 16:03:31 s/subtopic: PR 1710/there is/ 16:03:55 i/sk: there is/subtopic: PR 1710/ 16:03:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:03:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:09:53 i/talked with Re/scribenick: kaz/ 16:10:28 s/w.r.t. :/w.r.t. :|/ 16:10:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:10:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:12:42 i/for TMs/scribenick: Ege/ 16:12:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:12:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:13:16 i/only changes to/scribenick: Ege/ 16:13:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:13:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:13:51 s/let's discuss this/scribenick: kaz/ 16:16:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:16:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:17:14 s/topic: PR1683/PR to change/ 16:17:37 i/td schema/subtopic: PR 1683/ 16:17:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:17:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:18:49 s/sk: scribenick: kaz next week/sk: let's discuss this next week/ 16:18:57 i/next week/scribenick: kaz/ 16:18:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:18:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:20:03 i|this fixes michael la|scribenick: Ege| 16:20:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:20:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:21:03 i|let's discuss this|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1718 PR 1718 - Update editors list and acknowledgements| 16:21:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:21:06 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:23:04 i|this fixes michael|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1720 PR 1720 - update 8.3 Protocol Bindings section| 16:23:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:23:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 17:59:12 kaz has joined #wot-td 19:13:25 Zakim has left #wot-td