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13:50:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/11-ixml-irc
13:50:36 <Steven> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:50:44 <Steven> Meeting: ixml Group Teleconference
13:50:56 <Steven> Date: 11 October 2022
13:51:00 <Steven> Chair: Steven
13:51:18 <Steven> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/09/13-ixml-minutes.html
13:51:37 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022Oct/0000
13:51:49 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:51:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/11-ixml-minutes.html Steven
13:59:26 <Steven> Present: Bethan, Norm, Michael, Steven
14:01:04 <cmsmcq> cmsmcq has joined #ixml
14:01:04 <norm> norm has joined #ixml
14:01:29 <tovey-walsh> tovey-walsh has joined #ixml
14:01:39 <cmsmcq> Good morning, all.
14:02:28 <Steven> Topic: Actions
14:02:30 <Steven> ACTION (2022-06-21): Tom to set up a schematron demo
14:02:36 <Steven> [Continues]
14:02:48 <Steven> ACTION (2022-09-13): John to report how many Earley items are reduced
14:02:48 <Steven>                      by the changed rewrite rules.
14:02:54 <Steven> [Continues]
14:03:01 <Steven> ACTION (2022-09-13): Steve to draft text (in HTML) to resolve the
14:03:01 <Steven>                      erratum in issue #145
14:03:09 <Steven> [Done; please check]
14:03:43 <Steven> ACTION (2022-09-13): Norm to try out the stylesheet PI trick on the
14:03:43 <Steven>                      XML version of the ixml grammar.
14:04:01 <Steven> [Done]
14:04:09 <Steven> Topic:  Status of implementations
14:04:49 <Steven> Steven: v4 is up. Mostly code cleanup. Some better error messages. Warns about unreachable rules.
14:05:41 <Steven> Norm: No change
14:05:45 <Steven> MSM: None
14:06:18 <Steven> Steven: I also published my code (using ixml)
14:06:31 <Steven> ... also working on my tutorial.
14:06:41 <Steven> Topic:  Status of testing and test suites
14:07:01 <Steven> Norm: There were commits for a couple of additional ambiguous cases
14:07:31 <Steven> Topic:  Issue #145 Character class "LC" doesn't match our grammar
14:07:54 <Steven> MSM: We agreed to change. We need to confirm the changes.
14:08:30 <Steven> https://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/ixml/ixml-errata.html
14:10:00 <norm> https://invisiblexml.org/1.0/errata.html
14:10:03 <Steven> Norm: Errata is fine
14:11:45 <Steven> Steven: I'm fine with Norm's version. My action remains to update a future version of the spec.
14:12:24 <Steven> ACTION: Norm to move the erratum from 'Proposed' to 'Accepted'.
14:14:59 <Steven> Norm: I would like to propiose spec build process
14:15:05 <Steven> Topic: Spec build process
14:15:33 <Steven> Norm: I propose moving sources around, and building our docs automatically, so we get to see diff markups.
14:15:57 <Steven> ... Using DeltaXML, for which I have a licence
14:16:44 <Steven> MSM: Is it possible to inject a paragraph to acknowledge DeltaXML?
14:16:55 <Steven> Norm: I added a next and previous change button
14:17:29 <Steven> ... all it means is that there will be a source directory
14:17:57 <Steven> ... for this change, edit the spec and make a pull request
14:18:49 <john> john has joined #ixml
14:18:53 <Steven> ... I'll take the action to incorporate the erratum and explain how it works
14:19:19 <Steven> Bethan: If it's an erratum, it goes into a v1.1?
14:19:43 <Steven> Norm: Yes, there will be a 1.1 for the change
14:19:50 <Steven> MSM: 1.0 directory is sacred
14:20:18 <Steven> Present+ John
14:20:37 <Steven> Topic: Implementation reports (version)
14:20:48 <Steven> John: I've updated and released a v1
14:20:55 <Steven> ... with drag and drop
14:21:37 <Steven> John: Ambiguity can be a problem.
14:22:30 <Steven> Topic:  Issue #147 Are control characters allowed in an ixml grammar?
14:23:21 <Steven> Norm: Control characters crash my parser.
14:23:42 <Steven> ... Because it goes through the XML
14:23:58 <Steven> Bethan: Don't we already cover this?
14:24:29 <Steven> MSM: Yes and no.
14:25:32 <Steven> Norm: If so, can we make it more explicit?
14:25:46 <Steven> MSM: Or otherwise if it doesn't, do we want to say that?
14:26:01 <Steven> ... I have a bias. My parser won't accept such grammars
14:26:06 <Steven> John: Mine will.
14:29:17 <norm> https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/147
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14:33:11 <Steven_> Norm: Some ixml grammars have no XML representation
14:33:37 <Steven> John: Some implementations can, some can't
14:34:13 <Steven> MSM: I am reluctant to push hard.
14:34:34 <Steven> ... because it gets to talking about implementation choices.
14:34:50 <Steven> ... on the other hand, different behavious is problematic
14:34:59 <Steven> s/ious/iours/
14:35:29 <Steven> MSM: I don't want to push either way.
14:35:58 <Steven> Bethan: What is the status of the XML serialisation of the ixml grammar?
14:36:50 <Steven> MSM: some conforming grammars have no conforming XML representation
14:37:15 <Steven> Bethan: XML representations are dependent on the ixml syntax?
14:38:00 <Steven> ... so the ixml format is logically prior to the XML format
14:38:38 <Steven> MSM: I would like to check that claim
14:38:42 <Steven> ... yes you are right
14:39:39 <Steven> Steven: Couldn't we just say implementations should warn?
14:41:02 <Steven> ... I would worry that future targets would add new restrictions to ixml
14:44:20 <Steven> Steven: We could warn about grammars that wouldn't have an XML representation
14:44:31 <Steven> MSM: I could live with that.
14:47:49 <Steven> Steven: How about demanding that control characters always be  encoded, and not allowed in strings.
14:47:58 <Steven> s/./?/
14:48:22 <Steven> Norm: Forbidding tabs would be good anyway, since they are not visible.
14:49:07 <Steven> MSM: What is the set of Unicode characters that are not XML characters?
14:49:16 <Steven> Norm: Differs between XML versions.
14:50:04 <Steven> ... 5th ed forbids c0 and c1
14:51:31 <Steven> MSM: No, c1 is allowed
14:52:41 <Steven> ... SO proposal: String literals in the ixml grammar should exclude all c0 characters. (Or or c0 and c1)
14:52:46 <Steven> s/SO/So/
14:52:53 <Steven> Norm: I could live with either of those
14:53:24 <Steven> ... I think it would be more consistent to forbid both
14:54:14 <Steven> Steven: I'd like to have time for this to sink in
14:54:31 <Steven> ACTION: Norm to write a proposal that covers the c0 c1 problem in strings
14:54:49 <Steven> Topic:  Issue #138 Home page links to ixml.xml and ixml.ixml
14:55:13 <Steven> Norm: I'd like to have two links, one that displays, and one that downloads
14:56:27 <Steven> MSM: You wanted the XML to behave similarly to the IE or Firefox behaviour
14:57:06 <Steven> Norm: I will do this.
14:57:17 <Steven> ACTION: Norm to make XML displayable in all browsers
14:57:36 <Steven> Topic: AOB
14:57:41 <Steven> [None]
14:57:48 <Steven> s/[None]//
14:58:18 <Steven> MSM: Next month's meeting raising the question which is our normative timezone
14:59:37 <Steven> Next call 15th November
14:59:59 <Steven> Time: Same clocktime as this call
15:00:26 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
15:00:31 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/11-ixml-minutes.html Steven
15:02:45 <Steven> ACTION: Norm to inform group how build process will work
15:02:53 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/11-ixml-minutes.html Steven