IRC log of aria-apg on 2022-10-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/04-aria-apg-irc

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17:49:00 [Matt_King]

MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force

17:50:12 [Matt_King]

rrsagent, make log public

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present+

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rrsagent, make minutes

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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/04-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King

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17:54:26 [Jem]

rrsagent, make minutes

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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/04-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem

17:54:32 [Jem]

present+ Jemma

18:05:40 [Jem]

present+ helen Zhou

18:05:45 [Jem]

present+ Seth

18:05:53 [Jem]

present+ Alex

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18:06:43 [MarkMcCarthy]

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18:07:08 [Jem]

Topic: Introduction of new member, Helen Zhou

18:08:42 [MarkMcCarthy]

🎉🎉🎉

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scribe+

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present+

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RRSAgent, make minutes

18:10:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/04-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy

18:11:16 [MarkMcCarthy]

TOPIC: Production site update with PR

18:11:30 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: Jemma has some feedback on Jon's fix, ready to merge

18:11:51 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: let me explain what i'm talking about

18:12:31 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: i'm concerned about the living room lights switch - the background color of the switch is very close to the background of the page (white on light grey)

18:13:02 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: i can't think of the WCAG SC

18:13:09 [MarkMcCarthy]

MarkMcCarthy: should be under non-text contrast, 3:1 ratio

18:13:15 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: is this applicable jemma?

18:13:45 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: i think so, and I can make a PR to make the colors just a bit more distinct

18:13:59 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: do all the switch examples have the same design? or is this one different?

18:14:06 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: they have the same design

18:14:41 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: we previously approved these - if we didn't think this was previously a problem, is it an oversight? or discussed prior?

18:14:53 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: i think the problem happened when we migrated

18:15:32 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: we can check against the editors draft

18:16:12 [MarkMcCarthy]

q+

18:16:25 [Matt_King]

Switch example from editor's draft: https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/examples/switch/switch.html

18:17:25 [MarkMcCarthy]

CurtBellew: i have a thought - i think what we're looking for is the contrast of the border against the background. the contrast to me looks great, and the hovering looks good too

18:18:39 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: if what is current looks like the editors' draft, i'd be okay putting it forward, only if we have consensus

18:18:40 [MarkMcCarthy]

q-

18:18:52 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: i think curt is right, might not be an issue

18:19:43 [MarkMcCarthy]

CurtBellew: i always thought that border was odd

18:19:52 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: jon added that to help folks udnerstand where and what the click region is

18:21:09 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: so then, seth, will we be able to merge this into main and get everything sorted?

18:21:24 [MarkMcCarthy]

seth_thompson: I can open a PR and work with the site ops people, should be fine

18:21:49 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: i'll @mention you when i close this seth

18:23:31 [Matt_King]

The site publication process: https://wai-website-theme.netlify.app/workflow/

18:23:39 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: here's the process seth

18:23:42 [MarkMcCarthy]

seth_thompson: than,s

18:23:47 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/than,s/thanks

18:23:47 [s3ththompson]

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18:23:55 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: if you have questions, send em to Shawn

18:24:12 [Matt_King]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:24:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/04-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King

18:24:12 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/seth_thompson:/s3ththompson:

18:24:26 [MarkMcCarthy]

TOPIC: QA plan for updated Netlify APG site

18:25:05 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: updates from Alex before we go any further? we can only do QA on 2417 once we have a preview

18:25:50 [MarkMcCarthy]

s3ththompson: last meeting we talked about deferring QA -- having discussed with Alex there's a bit of work to be done on wai-aria-practices that has to happen AFTER it's stable.

18:26:05 [MarkMcCarthy]

s3ththompson: basically there's a roadblock to us generating an example

18:26:27 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: so let's talk about that process and what the timing is going to be so folks have a heads up about QA demands

18:26:50 [MarkMcCarthy]

s3ththompson: @alex, the main question is what is blocked, and what is happening on the WAI side

18:27:18 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: once things are stable enough that I can switch to the wai-aria-practices repo, i'll consume the content differently (since its in a directory structure)

18:27:35 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: I'll redo the build scripts to work with the new directory strucure

18:27:47 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/a directory/a file

18:28:00 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: currently i've been working on getting move-examples into a stable state

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18:28:20 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: the last remaining things for that is getting images and CSS in there, right?

18:28:45 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: That's on the table, yeah, and I saw there's a review on the coverage report PR. there's two tasks for move-examples that need to be moved...

18:28:52 [MarkMcCarthy]

... we talked about adding a link checker CI

18:29:09 [MarkMcCarthy]

... then we have to stub the old editors' draft site. those things are what needs to be done

18:29:17 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: we can probably do the stubbing while we're doing QA

18:30:29 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: so, the focus should be stabilizing move-examples. so we have to move alert dialog and treeview A and B examples. that should be pretty light?"

18:30:55 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: Yeah. I also just opened a PR that adds CSS and some patterns and scripts to the example pages

18:31:02 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: is that about resolving external links?

18:31:18 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: the scripts I added are to have SkipTo functional on patterns and practices pages

18:31:27 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/example pages/pattern pages

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Alex: The result is making everything feel cohesive

18:31:48 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: is the CSS just to mirror what we already have?

18:31:55 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: Yep, no changes, it just worked

18:32:04 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: awesome! but the tests are failing?

18:32:10 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: Only one

18:32:42 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: so we might need a sight-dependent person to look at the CSS for that PR

18:32:46 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: what number is it?

18:32:51 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: It's not ready, but it's 2499

18:33:08 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: jemma, can you look at that once it's ready?

18:33:16 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: yeah I can do that

18:33:30 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: hoping to merge it as soon as possible (tomorrow some time?)

18:33:56 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: so the to-dos on the move-examples branch, the only one that sounds unknown as far as time goes is the link checking CI

18:34:12 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: do you have an estimate for that? or a plan of attack?

18:34:15 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: not at this time

18:34:30 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: Shouldn't take -too long-, maybe 2 days or so

18:34:43 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: might that be stabilized by next tuesday then?

18:34:49 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: That sounds reasonable

18:35:27 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: we have lots of links to the ARIA spec, class/role ref, etc. Those links get resolved by your scripts, right?

18:35:33 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: we'll probably want that in aria-practices

18:35:50 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: I'll make a note of it. it was initially being resolved by respec, which ran during build

18:35:57 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: gotcha, that's what's gonna make it tricky

18:36:20 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: there is an HTML attribute that makes those links easily locatable, and hopefully fixable via find/replace

18:36:51 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: we want to avoid hard coding though, and continue using those classes. we need to keep the respec capability so we can match the current ARIA spec

18:37:15 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: respec has a config file... maybe this might be a separate issue then

18:37:30 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: Sounds like we need to figure out the algorithm for those links to keep functionality

18:37:51 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: do we want to add something to the script? So if those files are opened, the hrefs point to a real place?

18:38:04 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: or we could configure the link checker to do something similar

18:38:26 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: i guess this could increase liklihood of broken links though

18:38:52 [MarkMcCarthy]

Alex: sounds like we need to discuss that then. i can do some research and propose something next tuesday?

18:38:54 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: that works

18:39:17 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: respec-config.js is under aria-practices, for what it's worth if it's helpful

18:39:38 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: we won't talk about member assignment for QA yet since it's not ready

18:39:41 [MarkMcCarthy]

TOPIC: Next steps in long term ARIA-APG plan

18:40:11 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: maybe before the long term, what about now and the end of the year? [laughs]

18:40:39 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: so in terms of our current plan, we're still working on the redesign. we got the front end done, but working on making the back end sustainable

18:41:58 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: there's two other immediate priorities - 1) changing the about page (intro, acknowledgements, change history). end goal is that the about page is like the patterns page, examples page; just a list of stuff

18:42:27 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: have to add coverage report, code guide, etc. Isaac will be working on a design for that

18:42:42 [Jem]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/about/

18:43:16 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: Shawn asked for a list view for all of our pages, so we'd have a more compact alternative

18:43:31 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: the about page list will basically be a test for that

18:44:04 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: item 2, before the end of the year, is incorporating data from the ARIA-AT project

18:44:18 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: there's a question of which data to include, and it'll be a future agendum

18:44:40 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: there's two sets of data - candidate and recommended - so we'll have to decide which to put up

18:45:17 [MarkMcCarthy]

s3ththompson: candidate meaning WE'VE reviewed it. recommended when (ideally two) screen reader vendors have looked at it and approved.

18:45:37 [Jem]

thanks for the distinction, Seth!

18:46:15 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: we need to be very sure about the screen reader data/opinions, since the info we surface will have lots of traction

18:47:04 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: something else i'm hoping to get to before the end of the year is a way for us to start including experimental content. such as Sarah's PR to bring custom/context actions to ARIA

18:47:16 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: may be part of ARIA 1.3 or 1.4

18:47:56 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: the idea is we can develop examples that demonstrate future spec additions, maybe only behind a browser with a flag set, and may/may not be supported by a screen reader vendor

18:48:19 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: the hope being we can tweak things and adjust screen reader expectations

18:49:00 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: i want to figure out how we can develop that kind of content without automatically surfacing it to all readers of the APG

18:49:07 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: hopefully we can come up with a design at least

18:49:22 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: thoughts?

18:49:28 [MarkMcCarthy]

MarkMcCarthy: feels ambitious

18:49:48 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: i'm not sure how we might tackle all of that between then and now

18:50:06 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: longer range, we need to get ready for ARIA 1.3, annotation example being one

18:50:11 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: aaron has a prototype for that

18:50:31 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: i'm worried about it because some of this will take a lot of human power

18:51:10 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: other bigger things, the biggest of all, is really just that we need more people and how do we make that happen. improving processes, onboarding, develop a community of practice

18:51:40 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: Helen, how do you feel about your onboarding today?

18:52:13 [MarkMcCarthy]

Helen: I think I need to learn terminology, and what the process is like, before being able to participate fully and step by step. I'm glad you gave me some information beforehand Jemma.

18:52:24 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: thanks for sharing! Glad you joined us, and yes, it's a long process

18:52:53 [MarkMcCarthy]

s3ththompson: to anyone listening/reading - a lot of what we're talking about is infrastructural work that will make writing APG examples easier

18:53:08 [MarkMcCarthy]

s3ththompson: you've come at a point of a bit of chaos, but should be smoother very soon

18:53:33 [Jem]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-08-15+no%3Alabel++sort%3Aupdated-desc

18:54:08 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: So, on the about page, the acknowledgements are still being pulled from the aria-practices HTML

18:54:12 [Jem]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-08-15+no%3Alabel++sort%3Aupdated-desc

18:54:42 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: Jemma, you wanted to add a PR against that file for Carolyn's acknowledgement. I'd encourage you to wait, or branch off of move-examples

18:54:59 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: that's just the timing part, and I know timing is tricky

18:55:51 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: I don't think there's any question we want to include anything, it's just an odd point timing wise

18:56:18 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: Carolyn's husband is setting up a scholarship at a Canadian university, and they're hoping for a URL. I was wondering about adding Carolyn as an editor

18:56:21 [MarkMcCarthy]

+1

18:56:45 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: also, where we might add some information for her on the about page. i can make a PR so we can work together on it

18:57:09 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: in that case, branch it off move-examples. you'll find the aria-practices.html file is reduced, but acknowledgements is still there

18:57:31 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: I like adding her as an editor, and lets add her before the former editors

18:57:37 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: i like that

18:58:24 [MarkMcCarthy]

+1

18:59:37 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: what's the timing you need to get this in?

18:59:41 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: hopefully ASAP

19:00:09 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: then maybe we PR it against production; branch off main and we can have something for next week

19:01:15 [MarkMcCarthy]

MarkMcCarthy: do we want to do something similar/the same as the WG?

19:01:26 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jem: they will, but they have a longer process

19:01:42 [MarkMcCarthy]

Matt_King: if there's a link we're going to provide, then yes we'll want to make sure.

19:04:04 [MarkMcCarthy]

RRSAgent, make minutes

19:04:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/04-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy

19:04:07 [MarkMcCarthy]

zakim, who is here?

19:04:07 [Zakim]

Present: Matt_King, Jemma, helen, Zhou, Seth, Alex, MarkMcCarthy

19:04:09 [Zakim]

On IRC I see helen, s3ththompson, MarkMcCarthy, CurtBellew, Jem, Zakim, RRSAgent, Matt_King, MichaelC, Mike5Matrix, Github, github-bot, ZoeBijl, trackbot

19:04:12 [MarkMcCarthy]

present+ s3ththompson

19:04:16 [MarkMcCarthy]

present+ siri

19:04:24 [MarkMcCarthy]

RRSAgent, make minutes

19:04:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/04-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy

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