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13:46:33 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/22-pcg-a11y-irc
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13:47:00 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
13:47:01 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
13:47:10 <AvneeshSingh> present+
13:47:16 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
13:47:45 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Update from meeting with ARIA WG, at TPAC for proper implementation of DPUB ARIA roles in Apple's accessibility API, AXAPI.
13:47:59 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Update from meeting with APA at TPAC.
13:48:14 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Guidance document for accessibility summary
13:48:29 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Further Feedback for MARC crosswalk.
13:48:35 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ any other business
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13:59:49 <GeorgeK> present+
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14:00:16 <tzviya> present+
14:00:16 <Gautier> present+
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14:03:34 <mgarrish> present+
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14:04:00 <MURATA> present+
14:04:09 <CharlesL> present+
14:04:15 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
14:04:15 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Update from meeting with ARIA WG, at TPAC for proper implementation of DPUB ARIA roles in Apple's accessibility API, AXAPI. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
14:04:18 <Madeleine> Madeleine has joined #pcg-a11y
14:04:22 <Madeleine> present +
14:04:26 <Madeleine> scribe +
14:04:59 <AvneeshSingh> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-aria-minutes
14:05:03 <Madeleine> Avneesh: update from DPUB ARIA
14:05:26 <Madeleine> Charles: Met with James Craig to show him examples from Taylor and Francis
14:06:07 <Madeleine> ... showed how publishers are showing info
14:06:25 <Madeleine> ... cleared up confusion on long post about priorities
14:06:46 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #pcg-a11y
14:07:03 <Madeleine> ... Big meeting on Friday morning where Avneesh, George and Gregorio (phone) spoke
14:07:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pcg-a11y
14:07:32 <Madeleine> ... Group still has concerns about the roles and would like a smaller sub-set; developers think some aren't needed
14:08:09 <Madeleine> ... top priority ones seem likely to be in the API but not the descriptions like chapter, glossary etc.
14:08:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> could somebody put the Zoom link in the chat? The one in my calendar is apparently out of date and I can't access an .ics file.
14:08:56 <Madeleine> ... concerns about links to help screen-readers users skip quickly but our doc doesn't say what must be spoken
14:09:02 <gregorio> gregorio has joined #pcg-a11y
14:09:20 <Madeleine> ... users need ability to change settings
14:09:34 <Madeleine> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/89231066800?pwd=ZytmVmZJZmVnV3JvTjV5ZEZ3RHpBdz09
14:09:59 <gpellegrino> present+
14:10:13 <Madeleine> Avneesh: the meeting felt more positive than previous meetings and James now understands more issues
14:10:42 <Madeleine> ... but he is concerned about 30-something roles. He thinks maybe 17 should be exposed to users
14:11:08 <tzviya> q+ to ask what this means for other roles
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14:11:39 <Madeleine> ... He also suggested the very highest priority roles should be in main aria spec as well as DPUB
14:11:40 <mgarrish> q+
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14:11:51 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:11:54 <Naomi> present+
14:12:29 <Madeleine> Tzviya: after working on this for several years, what does this mean? what does this mean for roles considered less important?
14:12:46 <Madeleine> Avneesh: if doc-chapter becomes chapter, doc-chapter will still exist
14:12:49 <gpellegrino> q+
14:13:22 <Madeleine> ... for roles deemed lower priority, we have made a good start getting many roles supported. Some tools support all roles, so if Apple moves incrementally at least they are moving
14:13:39 <Madeleine> Tzviya: what about AT support for APIs
14:14:33 <Madeleine> Avneesh: list of support: Google Chrome with TalkBack supports almost all DPUB roles. Google Playbooks uses Chrome so it supports
14:14:36 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:14:40 <tzviya> ack me
14:14:40 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask what this means for other roles
14:14:43 <tzviya> ack mgarrish
14:14:46 <tzviya> q+ george
14:15:10 <AvneeshSingh> ack mg
14:15:11 <Madeleine> Matt: did you get a sense if this effects DPUB-AAM mapping to get the update out that is hung up
14:15:25 <Madeleine> ... wanted in parallel with EPUB
14:15:37 <Madeleine> ... can we continue to work on that update?
14:16:14 <Madeleine> Charles: no other hangups raised so seems good, but if there is a specific issue we should check on let us know
14:17:08 <Madeleine> Matt: hoping we can move forward with the ARIA module to CR. Maybe need to take up separately
14:17:11 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:17:20 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
14:17:31 <GeorgeK> q+
14:17:52 <Madeleine> Gregorio: Seems Apple will update the mapping internally. Upgrade to main ARIA roles is great for us and should get better implementation
14:18:48 <Madeleine> Charles: table with AX API with AX sub-roles for landmark region or nil -- James agreed that nil could be changed to biblio-entry or whatever
14:18:55 <Madeleine> ... others should be able to map as well
14:19:22 <Madeleine> Avneesh: objective is to update the AX API in the mapping but Apple needs to work internally first
14:19:23 <AvneeshSingh> ack george
14:19:30 <CharlesL> ack GeorgeK
14:19:34 <AvneeshSingh> ack george
14:19:56 <Madeleine> George: Testing Android and Chrome, data was filled in for description. Is sub-class also filled in?
14:20:12 <tzviya> q+
14:20:24 <Madeleine> Charles: We didn't want to touch the description field. James agreed. There are localization issues.
14:20:44 <Madeleine> George: TIES call should take a look at this in detail
14:20:59 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:21:07 <AvneeshSingh> ack tzviy
14:21:40 <Madeleine> Tzviya: With roles and subclass/superclass, there is a bigger issue with ARIA superclassing. It doesn't work the way most of the ARIA group thought it should work
14:22:06 <Madeleine> ... inheritance structure is not clean
14:22:36 <Madeleine> Matt: it is a theoretical model and doesn't work with all nodes. Tread with caution. Things may not inherit all properties.
14:22:58 <Madeleine> Avneesh: things like list parent?
14:23:08 <Madeleine> Matt: not the AAM mapping
14:23:19 <Madeleine> Avneesh: We focus on AAM mapping, not main spec
14:23:23 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:23:34 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
14:23:34 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Update from meeting with APA at TPAC. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
14:24:27 <Madeleine> Charles: The ADAPT is a new personalization module that is close to going to CR but the TAG has major concerns
14:24:53 <Madeleine> ... we thought we answered everything so we though it was resolved, but actually it was closed because of lack of activity
14:24:59 <Madeleine> ... so issues still need resolution
14:25:22 <Madeleine> ... they love the mapping of symbols to phrases using the W3C registry
14:25:45 <Madeleine> ... Can tag things in web documents with numbers and they can be converted to Bliss symbols automatically
14:26:19 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:26:44 <Madeleine> ... Other areas where they had concerns is priority levels like critical to page vs medium priority -- reduce complexity on page for users who are distracted
14:26:52 <Madeleine> ... more work needed in that area
14:27:20 <Madeleine> ... were three modules, now four, but bring Symbols module to CR first and then go back to others
14:27:46 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:28:18 <Madeleine> George: Synthetic speech: APA wants more features that were supported in the proposal from the Pronounciation task force
14:28:42 <Madeleine> ... interlinear speech also wanted, where there are two things and you need to pronounce both or select which one
14:29:02 <MURATA> +q
14:29:06 <Madeleine> ... they want to enhance spec and want only one option while the current spec picks between two
14:29:18 <Madeleine> ... not sure they mean one attribute only or one option
14:29:47 <Madeleine> Makoto: The current doc has two approaches. One uses only one attribute but it has rich structures
14:29:50 <mgarrish> q+
14:29:55 <Madeleine> ... other approach is multi-attribute approach
14:30:10 <Madeleine> ... EPUB has been doing multi-attribute approach.
14:30:22 <Madeleine> ... Now they have three but I don't know what the addition is
14:30:31 <Madeleine> ... but they said they will pick one
14:30:46 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:30:54 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
14:30:58 <Madeleine> ... I personally prefer a unified solution supported by browsers, online tests, and textbooks
14:31:13 <AvneeshSingh> ack mg
14:31:28 <Madeleine> Matt: They said they'd discussed with WHAT WG and had good response, but that they had some internal issues within their group
14:31:43 <Madeleine> ... if they have buy-in, that's a sign of movement in the near future
14:32:05 <Madeleine> Avneesh: May take years to get implemented even with browser buy-in
14:32:07 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:32:24 <Madeleine> ... Wendy has action item to talk to publication community about interlinear text
14:32:45 <Madeleine> ... API working group said send change log and we will decide if review is needed
14:32:53 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:33:07 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
14:33:07 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Guidance document for accessibility summary -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
14:33:15 <Madeleine> George: Accessibility summary has been updated
14:33:26 <GeorgeK> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/blob/main/drafts/schema-a11y-summary/index.html
14:33:48 <Madeleine> George: I updated several things.
14:33:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/API/APA
14:34:00 <Madeleine> ... Example section: added one thing and limited to 500 characters
14:34:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> Is that correct?
14:34:18 <Madeleine> ... removed priority column from features table. It didn't seem helpful
14:35:03 <Madeleine> ... added text to Hazards based on discussion. What it is, where located, is it essential content. Added example
14:35:16 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:35:31 <Madeleine> ... questions about features: 26 rows. Some are strange for EPUB
14:35:52 <Madeleine> ... transformability, large print, high contrast. To me, not going to be used. Do we want to remove them?
14:36:01 <Madeleine> q+
14:36:03 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:36:13 <AvneeshSingh> ack madel
14:36:22 <Naomi> q+
14:36:35 <CharlesL> q+
14:36:56 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
14:37:10 <Madeleine> Madeleine: is this doc for publishing community only? If not, maybe note that some rows are not as useful for books but are useful on the broader web
14:37:41 <Madeleine> Naomi: Some of these might not be relevant for all books, but could be for specific book formats.
14:37:58 <Madeleine> ... Or does it go up a level to the parent description, not the summary
14:38:14 <Madeleine> ... the metadata display document -- User Experience Guide
14:38:18 <Madeleine> q+
14:38:27 <AvneeshSingh> ack charle
14:38:52 <Madeleine> Charles: some might not make sense -- if we have nothing to say in the suggested language column, why are we including it
14:39:06 <Madeleine> ... could have a collapsed detail section about less popular items
14:39:14 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:39:17 <Madeleine> Naomi: or just note it is not exhaustive
14:39:23 <tzviya> q+
14:39:30 <AvneeshSingh> ack madel
14:40:10 <Madeleine> George: will add a link to the list of all features
14:40:32 <Madeleine> ... then can remove ones that are built into EPUB from this document
14:40:49 <AvneeshSingh> ack tzviy
14:40:50 <Madeleine> ... concerned about children's book issue that Naomi raised, though
14:41:15 <Madeleine> Tzviya: I disagree with others -- publishers struggle with summaries and the ones they have aren't helpful
14:41:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tzviya
14:41:51 <Madeleine> ... having the guidance for what to say for each value would be really helpful for publishers to automate useful summaries
14:42:15 <Madeleine> Avneesh: we have adjusted thinking on Summary
14:42:46 <Madeleine> Matt: Schema.org was not thinking of EPUBs. It was more general. Summary not meant to be repetition of what is in the other metadata.
14:43:09 <Madeleine> ... you could make it a duplication, but we are trying to avoid that now in this guidance document
14:43:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya's strategy would be an option; publishers that could write a good summary could keep doing that.
14:43:44 <Madeleine> ... for EPUB where we are requiring this to be present, we know more what to expect in the metadata, so we can tailor the summary to what isn't conveyed in the metadata
14:43:47 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:43:49 <CharlesL> q+
14:44:13 <Madeleine> ... correction "requiring other metadata to be present"
14:44:15 <AvneeshSingh> ack charle
14:44:56 <Madeleine> Charles: some rows still seem to recommend duplication. But clarification might be needed for captions (video, not fig captions)
14:46:12 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:46:16 <Madeleine> George: Will work on this, moving information into the summary to match table
14:47:00 <Madeleine> ... I will remove some rows, make nice crisp text, and explain what we mean such as "all math is in MathML" so you can bank on it
14:47:33 <Madeleine> Avneesh: Chemistry can also be represented in MathML so let's add that example
14:47:34 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:47:40 <CharlesL> q+
14:47:55 <Naomi> q+
14:47:58 <Madeleine> George: is anyone has comments on the new Hazards text, please let me know
14:48:31 <Madeleine> ... Makoto, I need help with Ruby. If we use Japanese characters, what would the character limit be? Can you help with an example summary in Japanese
14:49:03 <Madeleine> Makoto: Character limit not huge problem. Adaptation is not supported by reading systems. We need to promote Ruby rendering based on user preferences
14:49:43 <Madeleine> ... if this book is expected to support both thoroughly annotated, partially annotated, and no Ruby, reading systems may not support this variety.
14:50:02 <Madeleine> ... users may be disappointed by their experience based on info in the summary
14:50:18 <Madeleine> George: this is true for math also, if the RS doesn't support the features in the book
14:50:46 <Madeleine> Makoto: Systems can generate human readable info from the machine-readable metadata.
14:51:02 <Madeleine> ... this could be automatically adjusted based on what the RS actually supports
14:51:41 <Madeleine> George: I thought vendors would display metadata directly and not change it based on their implementation
14:51:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:52:00 <Madeleine> ... if they don't support mathml, they shouldn't hide metadata that says the book has MathML. Same for Ruby
14:52:25 <CharlesL> ack Naomi
14:52:38 <Madeleine> Naomi: For features we know aren't supported, publishers want readers to know the feature is there, but if the platform doesn't support it
14:52:47 <Madeleine> ... it is misleading to say it is supported
14:53:17 <Madeleine> ... leaving it in machine-readable metadata rather than summary lets vendor trim the metadata to what matches the RS tools
14:53:35 <Madeleine> ... but the vendor shouldn't mess with the text of Accessibility Summary
14:53:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
14:53:44 <Madeleine> Avneesh: this topic needs longer discussion
14:54:19 <Madeleine> Naomi: when we do accessibility testing and something is a bit strange, like acronyms or other odd reading results, should we mention that
14:54:33 <Madeleine> ... or is it common knowledge that acronyms will read poorly
14:54:44 <Madeleine> ... there are ways to force a fix, but if we haven't should be mention it?
14:54:57 <Madeleine> George: too much detail! don't put that in summary
14:55:07 <AvneeshSingh> ack charles
14:55:10 <Madeleine> Avneesh: Move this discussion to the Summary task force next week
14:55:26 <Madeleine> Charles: Might have ascii text for simple equations and mathml for complex
14:55:41 <Madeleine> ... also need to update acknowledgments of participants
14:55:43 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
14:55:43 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Further Feedback for MARC crosswalk. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
14:55:51 <Madeleine> George: Charles and I will get together and work on this
14:56:00 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/drafts/a11y-crosswalk-MARC/index.html
14:56:17 <Madeleine> Chris Oliver: Update on MARC: delays due to back to school season
14:57:08 <Madeleine> ... interesting to hear the publisher input from the beginning of the production change since libraries are at the end
14:57:21 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:57:29 <Madeleine> ... when feature is in the EPUB but the reader can't offer it, is it still in the EPUB file?
14:57:55 <Madeleine> Naomi: Some publishers may be making custom EPUB for different vendors, but most make one EPUB for all systems
14:58:17 <CharlesL> q+
14:58:17 <Madeleine> Chris: So users can't use the feature in their tool but it is in the file
14:58:46 <Madeleine> ... when an EPUB is being prepared, and you get the manuscript from the author, is it is the publisher who decides on a11y features?
14:59:16 <Madeleine> Naomi: different at different publishers. At Penguin/Random House, we have no contact with authors or editors, just get the file and move it to EPUB
14:59:31 <Madeleine> ... but in some cases authors and editors are getting more involved
14:59:53 <Madeleine> ... smaller publishers will have fewer people involved and may have more conversations about this
15:00:10 <Madeleine> Chris: So do extended descriptions go back to authors for writing?
15:00:24 <Gautier> q+
15:00:48 <Madeleine> Naomi: in fiction publishing this comes up less. But it varies, can be author or epub team or others. Completely different across industry though
15:00:59 <AvneeshSingh> ack charel
15:01:09 <Madeleine> Charles: some publishers have conversion vendors and may pay that vendor to do descriptions.
15:01:25 <Madeleine> ... if going for conformance they may be paying for it then
15:01:54 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:02:34 <Madeleine> Charles: for how we display metadata, may want to add that if a vendor doesn't support a feature, they could note that features exist in book but are not exposed in this tool
15:03:12 <Madeleine> Gautier: Image description is a major problem for publishers facing European A11y Act. French publishers association has a document about it.
15:03:32 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:03:39 <CharlesL> ack Gautier
15:03:41 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:03:43 <Madeleine> ... varies by publisher, but because of EAA and back publication list needs, it is more important now
15:04:00 <Madeleine> ... some conversion can be made by conversion team and some in house.
15:04:17 <Madeleine> .. Big issue in Europe for publishing industry
15:04:35 <Madeleine> Avneesh: Further discussion in the future. Thanks all.
15:05:05 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
15:05:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/22-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
15:05:19 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
15:06:20 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
15:06:20 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, GeorgeK, ChrisOliverOttawa, tzviya, Gautier, mgarrish, MURATA, CharlesL, gpellegrino, Naomi
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