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16:13:34 <atsushi> zakim, list agenda
16:13:34 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:13:35 <Zakim> 1. https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1205 [from yonet]
16:13:40 <atsushi> zaim, clear agenda
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16:15:06 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
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16:15:18 <atsushi> meeting: Immersive Web Working Group TPAC2022 Friday
16:15:42 <atsushi> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html
16:16:06 <atsushi> agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/main/TPAC-2022/readme.md#day-2--september-16th-2022
16:16:11 <polx> Does anyone have the passcode for the zoom call?
16:16:15 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
16:16:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
16:16:38 <atsushi> polx, see calendar at https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8c799fc5-0c2c-4797-997d-7e0540fa20be
16:17:59 <polx> (right, it was no preconfigured on the box, so it was long)
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16:24:50 <alcooper_> Day 2 zoom: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://us02web.zoom.us/j/9051227671?pwd%3DdG8zZ0dzYVdDZHQ2QXVQaFhqSWw4UT09&sa=D&source=calendar&ust=1663721004441789&usg=AOvVaw3eFU7MQf0H8KoHX6KZ0BJi
16:26:21 <alcooper_> alcooper_ has changed the topic to: TPAC Day 2 Zoom: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/9051227671?pwd=dG8zZ0dzYVdDZHQ2QXVQaFhqSWw4UT09
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16:28:11 <ada> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1typ1VnQ9uzjKK0S_-lM430i6w99e1DfQCD-NPOY5OLg/edit?usp=sharing
16:28:32 <ada> This is the link to the unconference slides feel free to add items to it
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16:32:08 <cabanier> present+
16:35:08 <bkardell_> present+
16:35:52 <dom> Topic: -> https://github.com/WebView-CG/usage-and-challenges/issues Open github issues
16:35:56 <ada> present+
16:36:12 <dom> Subtopic: -> https://github.com/WebView-CG/usage-and-challenges/issues/16  Display and manipulate third party content while blocking third party scripting #16
16:36:19 <dom> Brady: epub is essentially a Web site in a zip file
16:36:25 <Will_C> Will: Scribing
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16:36:32 <bialpio> present+
16:36:36 <Will_C> Ada: The topic is DOM layers from unconf
16:36:48 <bkardell_> scribe: Will_C
16:37:05 <Will_C> ... Initially just going to be me asking Rick if we could talk about it would be pretty neat if you could display the browser window into the immersive environment
16:37:10 <Will_C> ... You could do interesting things with that
16:37:18 <bkardell_> q+
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16:37:54 <ada> ack bkardell_
16:37:58 <yonet> present+
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16:38:13 <Will_C> bkardell_: I just had a simple clarifying question
16:38:27 <Will_C> ... Is the idea to project the page content somehow or to have the ability to bind dom elements into the scene
16:38:43 <Will_C> Ada: There is another API that's extremely early called "Attached elements"
16:38:54 <Will_C> ... The idea is that you can break an element out of the page
16:39:19 <Will_C> ... You could pop an item out of the page into a 2D rectangle
16:39:30 <Will_C> Brandon Jones: This would be a CSS property
16:39:56 <bajones> q+
16:39:58 <Will_C> Ada: If you had this and an XR session going, you could do interesting things by knowing where they are, and place them in your 3D scene with CSS
16:40:19 <cabanier> q+
16:40:20 <Will_C> Ada: It would always be on top, so no occlusion, but it could be an interesting way to improve our track record with accessibility
16:40:21 <ada> ack bajones
16:40:47 <Will_C> bajones: I have thoughts. Having an API that would allow elements to be given a depth
16:41:00 <Will_C> ... I'm a little hesitant to extend that idea out to allowing them to be placed anywhere in space
16:41:17 <Will_C> ... You have to make individiual meshes for everything that might be on the page, which doesn't mesh with how browser do things right now
16:41:36 <Will_C> ... This is based on what I know of how a web browser works, and how the firefox reality system works
16:42:01 <Will_C> ... To avoid a state where you have to reimplement a huge chunk of the browser CSS rendering system you would do something where you might be able to push things in an out
16:42:07 <Will_C> ... But they have to stay within the bounds of a rectangle
16:42:39 <Will_C> ... Its' a technical issue and I don't know if we really have an answer to that but I know the rendering systems of browsers are complex enough that we don't want browser vendors to reimplement a huge chunk of that
16:42:51 <Will_C> ... I don't know if that's a realistic path forward
16:43:07 <Will_C> ... The other thing was going back to the conversation we had before we started minuting
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16:43:50 <Will_C> ... We talked about for a long time the ability to have a page that says "this header points to a cubemap"
16:44:16 <Will_C> ... Cubemaps probably don't work very well in the modern era of hardware with 6dof but the ability to say "hey I want to give my page a custom environment"
16:44:30 <Will_C> ... and having an XR session worklet that lets you do some rendering that surrounds the page
16:44:45 <Will_C> ... It would be stereo, not occlude the page, and be similar to an XR session
16:45:05 <Will_C> ... You would have a slightly different set of restrictions on it. It would be nice to have interactivity
16:45:25 <Will_C> ... I think that you would want to have some basic restrictions, maybe the controllers remain rendered by the OS
16:45:53 <Will_C> ... Just the idea that it would be cool to allow the page to say "I have a custom environment"
16:46:11 <Will_C> ... The main content can still be what's on the webpage, they've just added a magical extension to it
16:46:23 <Will_C> ... This would be a better approach than browser window in custom scene
16:46:25 <ada> ack cabanier
16:46:50 <Will_C> cabanier: As brandon was talking about where the detached elements go, I agree, and the model elment will have the same issue
16:47:12 <Will_C> ... As for the browser window, there should be an API to bring the whole window into your immsersive scene
16:47:38 <Will_C> ... And an API to hide the browser window
16:47:42 <Will_C> ... Maybe without a URL bar
16:48:03 <cabanier> dom layers proposal: https://github.com/cabanier/layers/commit/c5e5bcb4bb77bc93d182b3c9404e5a5e9723118f
16:48:06 <Will_C> ... There's also the DOM proposal I made two years ago, I'll post a link
16:48:21 <Will_C> ... Which basically lets you create new layers which point to a same-origin URL
16:48:34 <Will_C> ... Those layers return a window object and you can manipulate that object as you please
16:48:56 <Will_C> ... Probably needs to be an API, brandon has a proposal to potentially make it automatic
16:49:05 <Will_C> ... I think for us just showing the browser window would be fairly easy
16:49:22 <ada> q?
16:49:36 <Will_C> Ada: I kind of like both of those ideas
16:49:51 <Will_C> ... Especially if you're rendering content with the user's creating in the 2D space
16:49:57 <Will_C> ... They could both work quite nicely
16:50:42 <Will_C> cabaneir: Maybe that solves some of the permissions issues as well
16:50:51 <Will_C> ... Experiences have to ask for permission first, which is clunky
16:51:17 <Will_C> Ada: One thing I've been thinking about is that how you would use this to steal someone's bank account
16:51:33 <Will_C> ... I keep thinking that in order to bring your DOM window back you rpbobably don't want it to be a virtual button
16:52:16 <Will_C> ... otherwise you could use the same method to choose instead to show a fake browser window that has the same URL you're expecting
16:52:33 <Will_C> ... If you navigate you'll lose everything anyway, we could always do something like load up your bank in an iframe
16:52:42 <bialpio> q+
16:52:53 <Will_C> ... Even some other sensitive things, maybe not a bank
16:53:21 <Will_C> bajones: It depends on the approach you go with. If you go with "oh I'm just rendering an environment around the webpage" then you'd expect a certain continuity but the page isn't going away
16:53:33 <Will_C> .. in that scenario you' dwant the guarantee that the page is never going away
16:54:31 <Will_C> .. I worry that we're going to overload on special gestures. Most of the controllers do have a large number of buttons but also we need to expect that hands are going to be a thing and we don't want to users to think too hard about moving their hands
16:54:54 <Will_C> ... If the page is more in control of when the page shows up and disappears I would hope that the browser themselves can show enough clues that its legit
16:55:11 <Will_C> ... You're probably going to be in a scenario where some dominant browsers can be mocked
16:55:42 <Will_C> ... You're going to have tabs that they can't predict though, and profile icons, so hopefully there's potential clues
16:55:59 <ada> ack bialpio
16:56:28 <Will_C> bialpio: Going back to the bank example it doesn't really matter if the bank prevents itself from being an iframe, but if the user thinks they navigated to the bank
16:56:40 <Will_C> ... Can we do anything there? It's an entirely controlled experience by the site
16:56:53 <Will_C> ada: I guess as long as the URL bar is always visible
16:57:00 <Will_C> q+
16:57:05 <cabanier> q+
16:57:07 <yonet> q+
16:57:14 <Will_C> bialpio: How can we show the user not to trust anything?
16:57:17 <Will_C> q_
16:57:20 <Will_C> q-
16:57:27 <Will_C> bajones: This is like fullscreen
16:57:37 <Will_C> .. A fake page could drop down their own URL bar
16:57:57 <Will_C> .. This is a scenario where we reach out to an existing team for the 2D web and ask for the guidelines
16:58:14 <Will_C> .. The URL bar is the most important security feature, being able to communicate to the user what domain they're on
16:58:23 <Will_C> ... Chrome has a huge document of guidelines on this
16:58:49 <ada> ack cabanier
16:59:45 <Will_C> Rick: People have a webxr browser running in the cloud, when you an XR session you're trusting that the XR session isn't going to steal your information
16:59:54 <Will_C> bajones: There's always going to be some gesture to pop yourself up the stack
16:59:56 <Will_C> q+
17:00:28 <Will_C> bajones: That's not too fundamentally different from having browsers like Opera that do all rendering server-side
17:00:40 <Will_C> ... We have had modes like that in the past, not sure if any are still working
17:00:40 <ada> ack yonet
17:01:02 <Will_C> yonet: Thinking about different interaction options, when head control is available eye control is also available
17:01:11 <Will_C> .. What happens when you just look at the page and that's taken as a click?
17:01:21 <Will_C> .. User might not be aware of that
17:01:49 <Will_C> bajones: That sounds like something that should be in control of by the browser
17:01:59 <Will_C> yonet: This is an accesibility feature
17:02:21 <ada> q?
17:02:21 <Will_C> ada: It's an awkward situation
17:02:24 <ada> ack Will_C
17:02:33 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
17:02:55 <cabanier> Will_C: question: what is stopping an experience to embed a browser
17:03:13 <cabanier> ada: you wouldn't be able to fetch youtube for instance
17:03:25 <cabanier> ... but as cabanier said you can embed a cloud-based browser
17:03:32 <Will_C> willc: What about if the page embeds their own browser engine
17:03:42 <Will_C> Ada: CORS will prevent them from requesting anything sensitive
17:05:59 <ada> action: Brandon and Rik make Propsals repo issues for Bringing browser window into Session and XRWorklets
17:07:20 <Will_C> Rick: I made a short slideshow, but I did it with my meta account
17:09:22 <klausw> present+
17:09:27 <bkardell_> scribenick: bkardell_
17:09:27 <polx> present+
17:09:29 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
17:09:29 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose igarashi
17:09:29 <Will_C> present+
17:09:30 <bajones> present+
17:09:39 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
17:09:39 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JohnRiv
17:09:45 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
17:09:45 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose marcosc
17:09:52 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
17:09:52 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bajones
17:10:01 <yonet> chair: ada
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17:10:55 <bkardell_> cabanier: [presents in the room about persistent anchors idea/proposal]
17:11:49 <bkardell_> cabanier: if you exit and return the anchor is gone. We want to do more in the meta browsers, and we want ot be able to place anchors and if they come back to the same environment, they resore a pose in the world across sessions
17:12:51 <bkardell_> [some room discussion about which systems can do this and what the limits are]a
17:13:16 <bkardell_> cabanier: these are local anchors, not cloud or shared anchors
17:14:15 <bkardell_> cabanier: basically add one method on XRAnchor `requestPersistentHandle` which returns a Promise<DOMString>
17:14:49 <bkardell_> cabanier: unique per origin, cleaned up when deleting history, numbe limited per origin... no problems with private browsing
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17:15:33 <yonet> q+ deleting anchors
17:16:00 <bialpio> q+
17:16:07 <polx> q+
17:16:11 <bkardell_> cabanier:  maybe possible addition to return a list of known anchors and maybe a convenience to delete all anchors, but I think these are just convenience
17:16:13 <ada> q+
17:16:23 <ada> ack deleting
17:16:26 <ada> ack anchors
17:16:36 <bajones> q+
17:16:51 <bkardell_> atsushi: I think of it like a sticky note - if I put it there I want it to be there when I come back
17:17:10 <bkardell_> cabanier: if I take my coffee cup and place it, maybe I do and maybe I don't
17:17:32 <bkardell_> cabanier: deleting only deletes its perisstence, it doesn't delete the anchor
17:17:53 <bkardell_> cabanier: regular anchors, when the session is done, they disappear
17:18:14 <ada> s/atsushi/yonet
17:18:18 <ada> q?
17:18:22 <ada> ack bialpio
17:19:00 <bkardell_> polx: Do we want to autodelete persistent anchors that haven't been restored in some time period
17:19:25 <bialpio> s/polx/bialpio
17:19:58 <bkardell_> cabanier: right now it's like local storage, it's not like cache4
17:20:00 <bkardell_> cabanier: right now it's like local storage, it's not like cache
17:20:53 <Leonard> present+
17:21:09 <ada> bkardell_: there are guides for how when to cleanup and what actions to take, under memory pressure all browsers will evict your origin, there is question over how often that happens.
17:21:20 <ada> bkardell_: more on low end devices
17:21:23 <ada> q?
17:21:27 <ada> ack polx
17:21:31 <cabanier> q+
17:21:48 <lgombos__> present+ Laszlo_Gombos
17:22:01 <bkardell_> polx: I have the impression you wouldn't clear it when you clear history
17:22:43 <bkardell_> polx: you used the word history, when I clear browser data - there is site data, where clearing history is about your browsing history --- just wanted to be clear
17:23:06 <bkardell_> cabanier:  Yeah, not browsing history...
17:23:06 <polx> ack polx
17:23:51 <bialpio> q+
17:23:53 <bkardell_> ada: When you move your physical location - you use it in the bedroom and the livingroom and the office -- is there a way to restore them appropriately?
17:24:35 <ada> ack ada
17:24:44 <bkardell_> cabanier:  if you are in a different room where the anchor was not defined, - you can restore it but you can't place it
17:25:19 <bkardell_> ada: is it something you'd want to be in the space - the limit?
17:25:41 <bialpio> q-
17:25:44 <bkardell_> cabanier: I' not sure. I do think there should be a limit, because someone would just exhaust all of the anchors
17:26:01 <bkardell_> cabanier: I'm still talking to the team
17:26:37 <bkardell_> ada: it would be interesting if it was limited per origin, but also per area - if I am in my livingroom, the anchors in my office are irrelevant to me
17:27:16 <bialpio> q+
17:27:21 <ada> q?
17:27:24 <ada> ack bajones
17:27:55 <bkardell_> bajones: You mentioned putting limits on this to prevent tracking cookies - but What if I want to track a  literal cookie (grins)
17:28:45 <bkardell_> bajones: Do you envision that you have to delete the saved anchors manually - I think that might be too restrictive. Maybe I'm an origin that just collects 1000 flash games underneath it that are all on the same origin
17:29:20 <bkardell_> bajones: now you hit the limit quickly... if the limit is 8, you are going to hit that fast. Maybe it should be a LRU thing
17:29:48 <bkardell_> bajones: that might not be appropriate for every site ...
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17:31:13 <igarashi> present+
17:31:21 <bkardell_> bajones: I'm not sure what the right answer here is but LRU comes to mind. Is there an expectation that only certain types of anchors can be saved?  You can place them manually... you can do a hit test and get the anchor - if we have image tracking, you'd maybe get one... so, for example, the image from that seems unlikely to be useful, maybe we could say "sorry, that doesn't make sense"
17:31:35 <bkardell_> ada: maybe image tracking isn't anchor it's just a pose
17:32:13 <bkardell_> bajones: It *feels* like that should be an anchor
17:32:39 <ada> q?
17:32:45 <bkardell_> bajones: maybe its as simple as adding a boolean on anchors that say whether they are saveable or cachable or something
17:32:57 <ada> ack cabanier
17:33:29 <bkardell_> cabanier: we can see how openxr is doing this - I think they kind of harmonized all the anchors... I don't know that image tracking is in openxr... we can see if it is and how these are handled there, it might be helpful
17:34:52 <bkardell_> ada: maybe if we have a function you can call that makes an anchor persistable?  You go into a room, there are a bunch of qr codes...
17:35:31 <ada> q?
17:35:34 <bkardell_> cabanier: we would I think need to have two categories - cachable and uncacheable... a framework needs to know
17:35:37 <ada> ack bialpio
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17:36:44 <ada> q+
17:37:03 <bkardell_> bialpio: Let's start with this multitenant thing --- whatever limit we set, a popular site will exceed it quickly.  That means you can't count on it and that means you have to assume it is not there - and that means i'm not sure how useful it is
17:37:15 <bkardell_> ada: it is like cookies and login a bit I guess
17:37:19 <bkardell_> q++
17:37:25 <bkardell_> q
17:37:27 <bkardell_> q+
17:37:32 <ada> q-
17:37:33 <bkardell_> ack +
17:37:34 <ada> q- +
17:38:59 <bkardell_> bialpio: If we want to be able to restore persitent anchors created from image tracking, we will have to spin up all of the image tracking infrastructure in that session... But why do we need to do that if the site can just do it itself, you can see the image tracking database -- you already sort of have this available to you
17:39:18 <bkardell_> ada: when it persists it's no longer an image anchor, it's just an anchor in space
17:39:33 <bkardell_> bialpio: do we expect it to be updated if it has moved
17:39:35 <bkardell_> ada: no
17:39:56 <ada> q+ zappar use case
17:40:04 <ada> q+ to talk about zappar use case
17:41:01 <ada> q?
17:41:02 <bkardell_> bialpio: depending on the space you try to create it off of - it will either assume the anchor needs to be created in the space at the time of where they are now - and not where they were a second ago... so there is this concept of dynamic vs static spaces - I would assume that images are more like dynamic
17:42:03 <bkardell_> cabanier: I think xr session under the hood has a concept of the current, you get the predicted I think
17:42:42 <bkardell_> bialpio: I think the distinction I am trying to make clear is whether something is in a different space because they moved, or because our understanding of the world has changed
17:43:07 <bkardell_> bialpio: has the controller moved, or has the environment changed - we already have to make this distinction
17:43:30 <ada> ack bkardell_
17:43:41 <bkardell_> cabanier: there probably needs to be some spec text in there about saying it needs to be relevant to the local floor
17:44:49 <ada> bkardell_: I was curious about if you can't count on it maybe it's not useful, but on the web you can't count on anything. The question is more how often can you count on it
17:45:19 <ada> ... never is not useful but even some of the time is valuable
17:46:15 <bkardell_> bajones: the example I was thinking of was the quest guardian system -- it is kind of flaky, I find that I need to reset it like 1/4 of the time... but it is also really useful despite that... this is kind of very useful as an optimization that makes it much more pleasant than having to do that every time
17:46:56 <bkardell_> bialpio: 'useless' is probably too strong -- maybe we should say 'don't count on it too much' or something...
17:47:24 <bkardell_> ada: in that situation, if it really is the core functionality of your company - put that thing on a separate domain
17:47:57 <bkardell_> yonet: the most common cases are like on the manufacturing floor - then I give it to someone else... If I lost that, it is a lot of work
17:48:11 <bkardell_> bialpio: as long as we set the expectations, it's fine
17:48:47 <ada> q?
17:48:50 <bkardell_> cabanier: maybe there are some ways around that - it is much like a conviencce
17:49:49 <ada> q?
17:49:52 <ada> ack ada
17:49:52 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to talk about zappar use case
17:50:20 <bkardell_> ada: something like zappar - they would probably like to make use of QR
17:52:18 <bkardell_> cabanier: I did a PR to the anchors repo - its not ready yet, but... can it be merged or is it too early?
17:52:30 <bkardell_> ada: it's a CG, you can do it
17:53:07 <bkardell_> bialpio: I think you are saying that you are going to add more - it might be easier to make changes you already know so that it is one PR it is easy to review
17:54:04 <bkardell_> bajones: For a long time, nel and I would mark areas of the spec we felt were still very under discussion with an unstable tag... Maybe we could also do that
17:54:18 <bkardell_> ada: oh - it's the same document -- no please keep it in a PR
17:56:03 <bkardell_> <br>
17:56:33 <bajones> Unstable styles from the WebXR spec: https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/blob/main/index.bs#L128
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18:38:17 <klausw> present+ Klaus_Weidner
18:38:28 <yonet_> We are going to run the meeting on aria irc.
18:38:31 <ada> We're in #aria
18:38:36 <yonet_> Please join there
18:38:38 <ada> ANd physically in Junior B
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19:50:57 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:50:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:52:20 <atsushi> s/Brandon Jones: /bajones: /
19:52:23 <atsushi> s/Brandon Jones: /bajones: /g
19:55:47 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:55:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
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20:03:44 <yonet> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:03:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-immersive-web-minutes.html yonet
20:07:30 <yonet> * atsushi, no I havent
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20:13:50 <yonet> chair: yonet
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20:16:12 <ada> present+
20:16:24 <cabanier> present+
20:16:31 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
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20:16:43 <cabanier> bajones: (doing a presentation)
20:17:04 <cabanier> ... link should be in the agenda
20:17:05 <bajones> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Wlib__5NRBia7adMUGJZgU9tk5-9ETnu_MRQ-JFib0A/edit?usp=sharing
20:17:28 <cabanier> bajones: this is a followup from the last f2f
20:17:37 <cabanier> ... we talked about it at length
20:17:44 <cabanier> ... and seemed well received
20:18:00 <cabanier> ... basically, we should have a navigation context on the session
20:18:23 <cabanier> ... the idea was the app will make the decision what that means in context
20:18:41 <cabanier> ... ie point at a teleport button, then this is the navigation destination
20:18:50 <cabanier> ... people wanted it to be more declarative
20:18:59 <cabanier> ... tags on the page that are a navigation
20:19:12 <cabanier> ... there were questions about programmatically starting a navigation
20:19:21 <cabanier> ... i don't have a great suggestion
20:19:37 <cabanier> ... maybe have a 2 tier solution where the browser asks for permission
20:19:51 <cabanier> bkardell_: is it like discord/slack leaving message?
20:20:08 <cabanier> bajones: yes. everyone hates it but it's an important security feature
20:20:21 <cabanier> ... but it feels like re-inventing links which isn't great
20:20:33 <cabanier> ... a11y has always been a weak point for us
20:20:49 <cabanier> ... there's an assumption that more declarative make it more accessible
20:20:58 <cabanier> ... here's an update proposal
20:21:14 <cabanier> ... more aspirational than actual proposal
20:21:40 <cabanier> ... we are an imperative api and we need to break that
20:22:02 <cabanier> ... we need to create a concept for describing a generic things that can be focused on or interacted with
20:22:18 <cabanier> .. (taking about example)
20:22:38 <cabanier> ... we basically add an object cache
20:22:56 <cabanier> ...now we add semantics to the scene
20:23:09 <bialpio> q+
20:23:23 <cabanier> (focus targets can describe scene semantics page)
20:24:00 <cabanier> ada: it would be useful, if we can add a stencil
20:24:17 <cabanier> bajones: possibly but we don't have to add that upfront
20:24:27 <cabanier> ... we can add more automation to the system
20:25:00 <cabanier> ... what this will giveus, you can get basic a11y tooling
20:25:09 <cabanier> ... you can info about the movie
20:25:20 <cabanier> ... you still do the raycasting
20:25:35 <cabanier> ... you would expect that as I highlight them, the focus target is set
20:26:05 <bkardell_> q+
20:26:24 <cabanier> ... if the focus targets have positional data, that might help with ordering
20:26:31 <cabanier> ... there's a lot that needs to be explored
20:27:00 <cabanier> ... if there's positional data, browser could render arrows to point where it is
20:27:41 <cabanier> ... this isn't related to navigation but what if you add a link?
20:28:26 <cabanier> .. what if we pluck elements from the page and associate them with a focus target
20:28:57 <cabanier> ... do I want to do the same in vr as what I did in 2D?
20:29:01 <cabanier> ... probably not
20:29:09 <cabanier> ... it would be nice to link them
20:29:37 <cabanier> ... when I do a select gesture, it shoudl be a click event on the element itself
20:29:59 <cabanier> ... then all the a11y things start to have meaning in the XR workd
20:30:14 <cabanier> ... you could hook this up to existing events
20:30:27 <cabanier> ... we still need to talk about navigation
20:30:56 <cabanier> ... in the current readme, you use `sessiongranted` which is in the quest browser
20:31:14 <cabanier> ... offersession was discussed
20:32:22 <cabanier> ... how about declarative?
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20:32:38 <cabanier> ... my suggestion is to make it wrappable
20:32:51 <cabanier> ... aframe already does this
20:33:06 <cabanier> ... this would easily create some custom attributes
20:33:30 <ada> q?
20:33:33 <cabanier> ... I do think declarative is important but not neccessarily the first step
20:33:37 <ada> ack bialpio
20:33:58 <cabanier> bialpio: who would create/delete focus targets? Is it the browser or the site
20:34:03 <cabanier> bajones: it would be both
20:34:28 <cabanier> ... in general I expect that it works like keyboard and mouse
20:34:47 <cabanier> ... I can tab with the keyboard and move with the mouse
20:35:33 <cabanier> ... it's important that sites don't know that a11y is being used
20:35:53 <cabanier> ... also authors should do it for convenience and not for a11y
20:36:28 <cabanier> bialpio: it seems that it should be simpler if the site is doing all the work
20:36:57 <cabanier> ... if the site does it, the browser doesn't really need to know so it's less useful
20:37:28 <cabanier> bajones: just talking about a11y, that group complains that the tooling is there but that people don't use it
20:37:59 <cabanier> ... it helps if this is a convenience to the developer because then they have a logical reason to associate these things
20:38:50 <cabanier> bialpio: how do we make sure that it's worthwhile for the site to do
20:39:42 <cabanier> bajones: there are a lot of interaction models and we don't want to say that one is the correct way to do things
20:39:57 <cabanier> .. this proposal defines how you interact with things
20:40:56 <cabanier> .... a navigation, the user is in a state that they're ready to navigate and then there's a system gesture to initiate the actual navigationb
20:41:14 <cabanier> ... in this proposal you pre-register your navigation
20:41:44 <cabanier> bialpio: it sounds like could still hack around it
20:42:36 <cabanier> bajones: yes but in most cases you might find that it's more convenient to pre-create things that are nearby
20:43:01 <cabanier> ...you could do the same thing in HTML which you make your site bad
20:43:22 <cabanier> bialpio: my main worry is that the site will circumcent it and not make it accessible anyway
20:43:43 <cabanier> bajones: we should create pits to success
20:44:05 <cabanier> ... if we make the most straightforward things, developers will do this
20:44:18 <cabanier> bialpio: can we make it hard?
20:44:38 <cabanier> bajones: yes as long as it doesn't prevent legitimate use cases
20:44:56 <cabanier> ... continue work with the a11y group is important
20:45:01 <ada> q?
20:45:04 <ada> ack bkardell_
20:45:20 <ada> q+ to ask about unified place to update camera offset
20:45:23 <cabanier> bkardell_: I agree that this is useful for a11y
20:45:39 <bkardell_> https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md#virtual-accessibility-nodes
20:45:44 <cabanier> ... but I think that group has already thought about this and got a lot of feedback
20:45:51 <cabanier> ... here are the virtual a11y notes
20:46:10 <bkardell_> https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/c3e4b554ad155ec8e8b6095ddd2107a39eb09d44/third_party/blink/web_tests/accessibility/aom-virtual.html
20:46:15 <cabanier> ... this has some issues
20:46:31 <cabanier> ... but this had a tag review but had privacy issues
20:46:40 <cabanier> ... we have a lot of similar problems
20:46:53 <cabanier> ... of drawing something on the screen and then it's not accessible
20:47:06 <bkardell_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r9csj_b_u9s_8n09X2jao1QjJpPDBmRfJ05NWVOgjF0/edit#heading=h.la87kxm4105t
20:47:14 <cabanier> ... I think the best thing to do is to write this up and add it to this document
20:47:23 <cabanier> ... and almost don't worry about proposals
20:47:42 <cabanier> bajones: to address what you are saying
20:47:58 <cabanier> ... this is just an idea to get it out
20:48:04 <cabanier> ... it's very WebXR centric
20:48:12 <cabanier> ... there are challenges
20:48:33 <cabanier> bkardell_: it would be great if there's something we can reuse in other places
20:48:41 <cabanier> bajones: that would be great
20:48:59 <cabanier> ... for webxr, maybe integration with spaces which is very xr centric
20:49:06 <cabanier> ... that is one of the takeaways
20:49:18 <cabanier> ... it's great if we didn't do it in an xr-only way
20:49:41 <cabanier> ... cynthia brought up something similar
20:49:50 <cabanier> ... the primary issue were privacy
20:50:08 <cabanier> ... tag said it can only be accessed to a11y tools
20:50:15 <cabanier> ... which is a privacy leak
20:50:38 <cabanier> bkardell_: there's talk on how this can be resolved
20:50:53 <cabanier> ... there are a lot of similar things for instance maps
20:51:12 <cabanier> ... like a place with areas of interested
20:51:23 <cabanier> ... there are things that are activatable
20:51:39 <cabanier> ... there's a class where they are link
20:51:48 <cabanier> ... which makes it very hard
20:51:59 <cabanier> ... what does it mean to follow a link
20:52:12 <cabanier> ... I have thoughts about how to solve that
20:52:28 <cabanier> bajones: you're hitting on a lot of the thoughts that I had
20:52:43 <cabanier> bkardell_: I like this problem
20:53:02 <cabanier> yonet: where should we discuss this?
20:53:30 <cabanier> ... = working with the aria group
20:53:45 <cabanier> ada: it seems handy to set up a a11y repo
20:54:17 <cabanier> yonet: I will do so
20:54:30 <cabanier> bajones: it would be useful to have some of these ideas
20:55:00 <cabanier> ... down on paper and then available to the a11y group
20:55:25 <cabanier> yonet: create a place for people to communicate
20:55:43 <cabanier> bajones: the bulk of this work will happen under the aria group
20:55:52 <cabanier> ... and then we will have extensions
20:56:08 <cabanier> ... getting it rolling in our space is a good idea
20:56:12 <cabanier> yonet: ok
20:56:15 <ada> q?
20:56:46 <cabanier> ada: this is another location where we have objects in the virtual scene
20:56:59 <cabanier> ... if the user is teleporting, you need to update
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20:57:13 <cabanier> ... currently it's layers and the things you create here
20:57:40 <cabanier> ... when the user teleports, everything needs to be updated
20:58:10 <cabanier> ... maybe we need to invent something to accommodate this
20:58:43 <cabanier> bajones: I need to think about this
20:58:51 <cabanier> ... we had a conversation about this
20:59:08 <cabanier> ... there is content that we're keeping relative to the world origin
20:59:30 <cabanier> ... and there's content that is close to the user
20:59:47 <cabanier> ... offsetreferencespace
21:01:01 <cabanier> ada: what do I mean is that when you teleport, you move your rig
21:01:15 <cabanier> ... because of the nature, everything moves
21:01:37 <cabanier> ... this is how most people do teleporting
21:01:58 <cabanier> ... for things that are world locked, that doesn't work
21:02:31 <cabanier> ... we could tell three.js to use offset transforms
21:04:21 <cabanier> bialpio: there's a friction point
21:04:26 <cabanier> ... with ar and vr
21:04:51 <cabanier> ada: except layers
21:05:12 <cabanier> bialpio: yes those are the only ones rooted in the real world
21:06:36 <cabanier> bajones: the friction point seems that there are 2 concepts
21:06:42 <cabanier> ... of tracking space
21:07:08 <cabanier> ... you have to sychronize them
21:07:32 <cabanier> ... and there's not much we can do
21:07:40 <cabanier> ada: maybe developers need to iterated then
21:08:18 <cabanier> bialpio: you have to go through webxr to update them
21:08:51 <cabanier> ada: it seems that it would be nicate if it would be a more declarative way
21:09:17 <cabanier> bajones: if we took the step out where the app has to do audio themselves
21:09:32 <cabanier> ... then you would have to tell the application how to do the right thing
21:09:45 <cabanier> ... to have audio synced with player or world locked
21:10:17 <cabanier> ... you need to pass in the right space
21:10:41 <cabanier> ada: you have to create a new space each time
21:11:03 <cabanier> bajones: I believe we investigated if we can nudge the reference spaces around
21:11:28 <cabanier> ... so we settled that the offset space are immutable
21:12:17 <cabanier> q+
21:12:30 <ada> q-
21:12:53 <cabanier> bajones: it would be nice if there was a teleportation component
21:13:27 <cabanier> ... you'll just have to remember what you need to bring along with you
21:13:43 <cabanier> ... it would have to be more formalized
21:16:12 <ada> ack cabanier
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