00:00:15 <Jamie> Food for thought: "It is recommended that assistive technologies (user agents?) provide a mechanism to allow navigation between dialogs. It is recommended that dialogs be treated as a solid boundary (clarify), where a mechanism is provided to explicitly navigate outside of the dialog."
00:20:45 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
00:20:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-aria-minutes.html jcraig
01:50:27 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
02:43:23 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
03:13:33 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
04:12:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
04:37:50 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
05:41:21 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
09:33:25 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
11:51:53 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
12:03:59 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
12:36:47 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
12:42:36 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
12:54:16 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
13:03:41 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
13:07:31 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #aria
13:27:42 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
13:46:49 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
14:08:03 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
14:13:56 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
14:19:05 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
14:28:22 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
14:50:20 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
14:53:35 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
14:58:38 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
14:58:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
14:58:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
14:58:42 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-aria-irc
15:01:40 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
15:05:13 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
15:12:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
15:12:52 <jamesn> zakim, start meeting
15:12:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:12:54 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
15:13:06 <jamesn> meeting: TPAC 2022 - ARIA (day 2)
15:21:24 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
15:29:53 <rego_> rego_ has joined #aria
15:53:02 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #aria
15:54:07 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
15:55:14 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #aria
15:55:20 <CharlesL> present+
15:56:01 <jamesn> present+
15:56:25 <AvneeshSingh> AvneeshSingh has joined #aria
15:58:04 <spectranaut_> TOPIC: DPub-ARIA roles
15:58:47 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #aria
15:58:53 <gpellegrino> present+
15:59:03 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
15:59:13 <spectranaut_> relevant github issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643
16:00:10 <Adam_Page> present+
16:00:18 <CurtBellew> present+
16:00:43 <AvneeshSingh> present+
16:01:18 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:01:38 <GeorgeK> present+
16:02:17 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria
16:02:43 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
16:03:48 <chlane> chlane has joined #aria
16:03:54 <jamesn> scribe+
16:04:02 <chlane> present+
16:04:10 <Judy> Judy has joined #aria
16:04:13 <spectranaut_> present+
16:04:29 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:04:33 <Jem> present+
16:04:34 <Judy> present+
16:04:47 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #aria
16:04:54 <jamesn> jcraig: So first learned about this from tzviya at Lisbon
16:05:17 <jamesn> jcraig: big misunderstanding - we shipped the first implementation. understanding was more simple
16:05:48 <jamesn> jcraig: since then more functionality and expanded to browsers etc..,.. good intentions but some fragmentation has started to occur
16:06:13 <jamesn> jcraig: we want to ensure we are not doing too much. some most important work is the work you don't put in
16:06:22 <jamesn> #1643
16:06:24 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643
16:06:24 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643 : Figure out what to do with the DPUB mappings overlap with the ARIA Core spec, in the context of newer implementation differences
16:06:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:06:36 <jamesn> jcraig: what to do with the DPUB mapping etc.
16:07:15 <jamesn> the implementation changes were having a custom role and role description for every role.
16:07:40 <jamesn> jcraig: all the specific links instead of being link would be more verbose like 'bibliography reference'
16:07:48 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
16:08:00 <jamesn> breaks screen reader users "muscle memory"
16:08:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:08:35 <jamesn> so biblio refs, footnote refs etc. were implemented in at least one browser at the platform level used a role description
16:09:02 <jamesn> jcraig: dpub folks all weighed in and went back and forth. got pretty complicated
16:09:52 <jamesn> jcraig: i posted a proposal
16:10:15 <jamesn> jcraig: then others went back to the dpub wg and organized a set of prioritizations
16:10:23 <jamesn> jcraig: think i understand it
16:10:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:10:37 <jamesn> jcraig: not going to read them all - as a lot there
16:10:53 <jamesn> jcraig: so combining that list with some context
16:11:25 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:11:33 <jamesn> so yesterday got this new proposal - https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643#issuecomment-1248814811
16:11:48 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
16:11:52 <CharlesL> q+
16:12:03 <jamesn> Matt_King: what is your overall objective
16:12:06 <spectranaut_> jcraig reference the original prioritization of roles from DPUB is listed in this comment: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643#issuecomment-1038828578
16:12:07 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria
16:12:12 <jamesn> jcraig: not to annoy screen reader users
16:12:41 <jamesn> jcraig: appendix is labeled with an appendix heading as it normally has a visible label
16:12:54 <jamesn> jcraig: some folks still think what i propose is too much
16:13:04 <jamesn> jcraig: coming closer to a compromise solution
16:13:16 <jamesn> jcraig: don't need a new role unless there is ????
16:13:35 <jamesn> jcraig: relevance and semantics are important to publsihing industry but not the lay user
16:14:00 <jamesn> Matt_King: fundamentally talking about expectations for how AT conveys roles
16:14:17 <jamesn> Matt_King: in IA2 and UIA not a role description....
16:14:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:14:35 <jamesn> jcraig: how it is comveyed to users is what i mean by role description
16:14:52 <jamesn> Matt_King: aria doesn't say what AT should do with a role
16:15:18 <spectranaut_> scribe+
16:15:26 <CharlesL> q?
16:15:32 <jamesn> q+
16:15:51 <spectranaut_> jamesn: the role that is exposed by the aams does not necessarily match what the AT says, that is not specified
16:15:59 <spectranaut_> 1+
16:16:01 <spectranaut_> q+
16:16:19 <jamesn> Matt_King: one of the areas where it is important (ARIA-AT) will talk about whether we should expose certain roles
16:16:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:16:32 <jamesn> Matt_King: role explosion doesn't serve all users the same
16:16:51 <jamesn> Matt_King: made a great point about publishers (in industry) vs common consumers
16:17:16 <jamesn> jcraig: but not just publishers but also librarians etc may want different info
16:17:46 <jamesn> jcraig: all these changes were in dpub-aam in MacOS that is role description in UIA localized control type
16:18:10 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:18:27 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:18:40 <jamesn> CharlesL: want to make it clear that epub and a11y TF do not need to have the description say certain things, We just need to be able to expose these roles as subroles of the superclass... just need to dig in through the API and configure the reading system to do something
16:19:21 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:19:22 <jamesn> CharlesL: we just want the DPUB roles exposed. we want the AT to deal with i18n - if don't have that info then can't know where we are
16:20:00 <chlane> scribe+
16:20:02 <spectranaut_> jamesn: clarification, do you need access in the accessibility API? is that what you need?
16:20:07 <chlane> jamesn: some access needed
16:20:15 <chlane> you do not need a11y api info
16:20:28 <chlane> james will reconcile on its own
16:20:43 <chlane> jamesn: infrastructure needs it but not getting it from a11y api
16:21:02 <chlane> spectranaut_: what info are you trying to get to them
16:21:09 <chlane> jamesn: whereami command
16:21:24 <chlane> s/jamesn/Jamesc/
16:21:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:21:35 <jamesn> CharlesL: in a reading system could ask where am I - could get that information from anywhere. The other is that the AT might want to automatically announce when going into something.
16:21:35 <chlane> jamesc hotkey to expose info
16:22:07 <chlane> make sure does not end up as Epub api that does not directly benefit users
16:22:12 <NeilS> NeilS has joined #aria
16:22:13 <jamesn> jcraig: epub reader has full access to the DOm and potentially the a11y API too
16:22:17 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:22:19 <NeilS> present+
16:22:22 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria
16:22:36 <chlane> jcraig: expose uncomputed role string
16:22:43 <chlane> pick and choose case by case
16:22:47 <jamesn> jcraig: maybe it would be easier if we just exposed the uncomputed role string to APIs
16:23:20 <chlane> jamesn: coreaam pass through all
16:23:30 <gpellegrino> q?
16:23:42 <chlane> scribe-
16:23:43 <Jem> scribe?
16:24:06 <CharlesL> q?
16:24:08 <CharlesL> ack me
16:24:12 <jamesn> ack jamesn
16:24:18 <jamesn> ack spectranaut_
16:24:27 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:25:29 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: epub reading system can get from markup but as jcraig was mentioning our focus is on AT. first example is for doc-abstract.
16:25:40 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: reads examples from table
16:25:50 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: how would AT know that it is an abstract
16:26:13 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: this info should be in the a11y api so screen readers can query the AX Api and know what it is
16:26:23 <Matt_King> present+
16:26:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:26:42 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: the ARIA WG doesn't define the UX - the AX API should be expoising those roles - and then up to screen readers to determine how to expose them
16:26:57 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: some may expose in different verbosity levels
16:27:04 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: in discussion how to implement
16:27:10 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: need the APi to expose
16:27:14 <jcraig> qq+ to respond re: aam and api design
16:27:18 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: just to alrify
16:27:29 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
16:27:29 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to react to spectranaut_ to respond re: aam and api design
16:27:37 <spectranaut_> ack AvneeshSingh
16:27:47 <jamesn> jcraig: good example of my core disagreement is that for most of them the content makes it very obvious
16:27:59 <sirib_> sirib_ has joined #aria
16:28:14 <jamesn> jcraig: as the user comes to the abstract or the acknowledgement it is obvious - but sometimes not always the case
16:28:23 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:28:34 <jamesn> jcraig: collectively we should expose more but not in agreement exactly how much more
16:28:35 <Matt_King> q+
16:29:02 <jamesn> jcraig: all these apis  ahve made different design choices. one apple made is not forcing conditionality into ATs
16:29:10 <jamesn> jcraig: at least 40 ATs in our products
16:29:27 <jamesn> letting AT work it out would be 40 times the work
16:30:05 <jamesn> jcraig: some API decisions - VO doesn't have any voice strings. but the role descriptions come from the apps or the frameworks
16:30:15 <gpellegrino> q+
16:30:21 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
16:30:27 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:30:28 <jamesn> jcraig: don't want to put everything in the API and let them work it out
16:30:30 <cyns> +100 to jcraig
16:30:31 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
16:31:23 <jamesn> Matt_King: is there a special need within publishing for machines to know stuff - when I naviagte a book and go to Heading Acknowledgments I don't need anuything wrapped around that to know what it is
16:31:25 <jcraig> q+ to move back to the agenda... reading the shared agreements and discussing the open questions
16:31:48 <jamesn> Matt_King: are there specific fucntions within ereaders - is it to create speach or to enable functionality
16:31:56 <CharlesL> q?
16:32:16 <jamesn> q+ GeorgeK
16:32:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:32:41 <jamesn> Matt_King: assumotion that all the roles that are there have to be announced
16:32:51 <jamesn> ack gpellegrino
16:33:38 <jamesn> gpellegrino: normally epub readers are based in 90% of cases on web views as an implementation technique. I don't know how they can add stuff based on roles. the fact that dpub is implemented by major browsers is important.
16:33:45 <jamesn> acj jcraig
16:33:49 <jamesn> ack jcraig
16:33:49 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to move back to the agenda... reading the shared agreements and discussing the open questions
16:34:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:34:28 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
16:34:29 <jamesn> jcraig: epub reader has full access - the DOM isn't accessible to the epub reader - seems like there is something sitting onto of the renderer
16:34:39 <jamesn> jcraig: something we have to check
16:34:57 <jamesn> jcraig: any native app that renders a web view can reach into that webview
16:35:02 <jamesn> ack GeorgeK
16:35:08 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:35:20 <chlane> o09:34 < jamesn> jcraig: any native app that renders a web view can reach into that webview
16:35:21 <jcraig> s/jcraig: something we have to check/gpel: something we have to check/
16:35:32 <jcraig> s/gpel:/gpellegrino:/
16:35:35 <jamesn> GeorgeK: simple docs may not need many of these things. Complex docs like textbooks with many chapters etc.
16:36:13 <jamesn> ... an item may or may not say chapter etc. but as you move from place to place in a complex book may get lost. The where am I system is very useful
16:36:16 <jamesn> q?
16:36:27 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:36:47 <CharlesL> q+
16:36:57 <jamesn> GeorgeK: If I see that there is a link it is very helpful to know it is a footnote etc. and the semantics presented to an end user should be able to be specified in the screen reader
16:37:15 <jamesn> GeorgeK: we don't have verbosity settings for <p>
16:37:24 <jamesn> q?
16:37:54 <Jem> I hear from George that even link role in epub has the structural points.
16:38:11 <jamesn> CharlesL: right now in web have back button. epub reading systems don't have that
16:38:19 <Jem> and navigational aspect.
16:38:27 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:38:36 <jamesn> CharlesL: knowing where going to go is useful
16:38:51 <jamesn> jcraig: seemed like implemetnation bugs to me not spec issues
16:39:00 <jamesn> jcraig: got to shared understanding
16:39:11 <jamesn> jcraig: lets hold tangential comments
16:39:20 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:39:27 <jamesn> jcraig: hoepfully time left at end for deeper questions
16:39:27 <Jem> +1 for keeping the discussion to the core suggestions.
16:39:43 <jamesn> Consider as new Core Roles in ARIA main spec (in any case, map the doc-prefixed roles to AAM with new role/subrole and role description)
16:39:43 <jamesn> doc-chapter
16:39:43 <jamesn> doc-pullquote
16:39:43 <jamesn> doc-subtitle: Is this sufficiently different from heading? [Update: @scottaohara says yes, would help with https://github.com/indicate what to do with multiple headings in hgroup html-aam#398 ]
16:39:44 <jamesn> doc-footnote
16:40:16 <jamesn> jcraig: ARIA WG should consider pulling these in as core roles... still with synonyms for old ones
16:40:27 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:41:12 <jamesn> jcraig: link roles - useful in axapi to serve a different subrole but roledescription would still be link
16:41:26 <jamesn> jcraig: backlink could activate a scrub gesture
16:41:30 <CharlesL> +1
16:41:45 <jamesn> jcraig: then hopefully the label of the link could still make it obvious where going
16:42:14 <jamesn> jcraig: next ones - keep in dpub - but might need custom role descriptions
16:42:27 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:42:38 <jamesn> jcraig: next set - keep in dpub but would be exposed as a region or group but would have the subrole
16:43:17 <Matt_King> q+
16:43:22 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria
16:43:37 <jamesn> jcraig: then the rest were from AvneeshSingh less important list so not as important to remap so would be left identical to the superclass role and just exposed as a region in a11y api
16:43:48 <jamesn> jcraig: then some specific questions for the rest
16:43:55 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
16:44:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:44:46 <jamesn> jcraig: maybe exposing the uncomputed role string is good. on mac by default with most controls get the label first then button - on some we push the role first - like links
16:45:02 <jamesn> jcraig: becuase it is before label needs to stay short and consistent
16:45:11 <jamesn> jcraig: don't want to break that usage pattern
16:45:27 <jamesn> jcraig: could do more at the end but don't have that API now
16:46:01 <jamesn> jcraig: GeorgeK mentioned paragraphs - would be annoying...
16:46:24 <jamesn> jcraig: some things could be available on demand... could come to a compromise on some of these
16:46:26 <jamesn> q?
16:46:27 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:46:40 <NeilS> q+
16:46:45 <jamesn> CharlesL: like that - agree
16:47:05 <jamesn> CharlesL: like idea - happy and the least work for devs all for it
16:47:21 <jamesn> ack CharlesL
16:47:30 <jamesn> jcraig: specific questions....
16:47:57 <jamesn> jcraig: (Charles mentioned Wednesday he wanted to keep these; but Avneesh's WG prioritization list above indicates low importance)
16:47:57 <jamesn> doc-dedication
16:47:57 <jamesn> doc-example
16:48:01 <gpellegrino> q+ to reply on pagelist
16:48:10 <jamesn> jcraig: Charles mentioned okay to skip, but above Avneesh ranked these higher.
16:48:10 <jamesn> doc-pagelist
16:48:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:48:31 <jamesn> ack gpellegrino
16:48:31 <Zakim> gpellegrino, you wanted to reply on pagelist
16:48:55 <jamesn> gpellegrino: pagelist is consumed by the screenreader then some calculation and then displayed to end user
16:49:12 <jamesn> gpellegrino: important to epub reader but less important to end user
16:49:26 <AvneeshSingh> Q+
16:49:37 <jamesn> jcraig: no reason to map differently as epub readers display already
16:50:13 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: want to highlight the priority list was the list the community created in the TF - it is not my understanding but is all the groups understanding
16:50:23 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: would like to stick with that
16:50:26 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #aria
16:50:39 <Jem> so my question is that the "page list" here is in e-book or in print version?
16:51:06 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: do you know why it is important? for epub api - for dedicated reading systems. Some epubs transformed into web content
16:51:36 <Jem> bookshare is a good use case
16:51:44 <jamesn> CharlesL: I can see that actually as the author exposed the pagelist - I can see that use case
16:52:00 <jamesn> jcraig: separate subrole then
16:52:33 <jamesn> jcraig: I put pagebreak as important
16:52:58 <jamesn> jcraig: epub reader reinterprets that
16:53:11 <cyns> q+ to ask of "page 23" is still a common use case? How common are paper books in education now?
16:53:14 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: there are readers that just expose the pagelist
16:53:50 <cyns> q-
16:54:03 <jamesn> CharlesL: dedication we have publishers that have a dedication make where "this page is dedicated to" at the bottom not the top
16:54:21 <jamesn> chlane: example - like code examples etc... to know in an example might be helpful
16:54:29 <jamesn> ack AvneeshSingh
16:54:45 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
16:55:04 <jamesn> Matt_King: want to ask about these group/region roles
16:55:35 <jamesn> Matt_King: those exposed as some other aria thing - i'm imagining eg chapter just becomes its own thing but part doesn't and is a group/region
16:56:25 <jcraig> q+ to quote a colleague
16:56:30 <jamesn> Matt_King: then if using VO to read a web view i don't know how i will understand what is micro/macro navigation.. a part can be a big thing.,... if we mix concepts then as a user i don't know how to keep this straight in my head
16:57:47 <jamesn> Matt_King: the other thing (happens a lot) can't tell the difference betweeen the content and the meta info. favourite JAWS feature is where links can be spoken in a different voice... every heading level has its own voice and links have their own voice.... super common interactions
16:58:20 <jamesn> Matt_King: If the content of the link is "4" get "link 4 bibliography reference"
16:58:34 <jamesn> jcraig: "link 4" is much clearer
16:58:54 <jamesn> Matt_King: could benefit from knowing where it is going but how announced is really important
16:59:38 <jamesn> Matt_King: in all these decisions need to be important to imagine as the user who knows nothing about it and hear all these words - can be overwhelming
16:59:44 <jcraig> s/"link 4" is much clearer/Is "link 4" more clear (Matt answered yes)/
16:59:48 <jamesn> Matt_King: how going to hear and what will mea
17:00:05 <jamesn> NeilS: curious as to omission of ToC
17:00:18 <jamesn> NeilS: seems like it would be useful
17:00:30 <AvneeshSingh> q+
17:00:39 <jamesn> jcraig: was in 1st proposal
17:00:46 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
17:00:46 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
17:00:51 <jamesn> ack NeilS
17:01:31 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:01:31 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to quote a colleague
17:01:32 <jcraig> Quoting a colleague: Roles and subroles should be added for new structural or functional elements but never for content specific purpose. To me a "dedication", for instance, refers to the content, not to the structure or the functioning of an element. Thus it should not be a role or subrole. The same applies to many of the ePub stuff we are talking about.
17:01:48 <Jem> +1 above comment.
17:02:02 <jcraig> quoting continued: As a user, I don't want to hear that kind of info either, because it is either redundant or irrelevant. The cliche "less is more" applies well here.
17:02:47 <jamesn> jcraig: 1 persons opinion
17:03:03 <jamesn> jcraig: have heard very similar from others who use day in day out
17:03:19 <jamesn> jcraig: if i'm at the start or end and there is an obiturary i will get it
17:03:27 <jamesn> sighted readers get the same info
17:04:13 <jcraig> q+
17:04:55 <jamesn> AvneeshSingh: can work on a table as to what a screen reader can speak
17:06:04 <jamesn> other implementors have done this so long as they don't roll it back
17:06:10 <Matt_King> For record would like to say that APIs should have all role information available in them, but that doesn't mean all role information needs to be spoken.
17:06:18 <jamesn> jcraig: my core concern is to keep best experience to users
17:07:20 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
17:08:59 <AvneeshSingh> The approach proposed by James Craig looks ok from high level view, unless the other API, who have already implemented all the DPUB roles do not roll it back. We can figure out the further details with Apple.
17:11:30 <jcraig> s/other implementors have done this so long as they don't roll it back/I think Avneesh's point was that other implementors (chromium, gecko) have changed their mappings (due to this evangelism by DPUB members) and he doesn't want them to roll those mappings back/
17:12:17 <jcraig> s/my core concern is to keep best experience to users/my core concern is not the implement effort, but to retain the best experience for users of assistive technology on Apple platforms/
17:15:42 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
17:15:46 <Adam_Page_> Adam_Page_ has joined #aria
17:27:15 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
17:28:36 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:30:35 <spectranaut_> TOPIC: APA Working Group and Adapt Task Force Cross Meeting to discuss live regions, decorative images, and simplifying content in general
17:30:40 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #aria
17:32:54 <matatk> matatk has joined #aria
17:33:12 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:33:13 <matatk> present+
17:33:16 <cyns> present+
17:33:17 <spectranaut_> present+
17:33:19 <cyns> scribe+
17:33:19 <matatk> present+ janina
17:33:27 <jasonjgw> present+
17:33:35 <CurtBellew> present+
17:33:48 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:34:06 <cyns> subtopic: live regions
17:34:15 <chlane> ing [~chatzilla@11c9e7f5.public.cloak] has joined #aria
17:34:15 <chlane> 10:33 < cyns> subtopic: live regions [10:34] [chlane(+ix)] [2:W3C/#aria]
17:34:18 <NeilS> present+
17:34:18 <chlane> [#aria]
17:35:42 <jamesn> q+
17:35:49 <jamesn> zakim, open the queue
17:35:49 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is open
17:35:57 <cyns> janina: COGA and WAI-ADAPT one of the distraction points is what you might silence in live regions. Looking for ways for user agents to control the frequency of live region notifications
17:36:02 <jamesn> q+
17:36:14 <jamesn> q- Avneesh
17:37:00 <cyns> Matt King: Meeting such needs of users feels like an authoring consideration. Having the user agent make decisions about how things are presented
17:37:18 <cyns> Janina: I want the user to be able to tell their user agent to do that
17:37:29 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:38:01 <cyns> Matt King: That's an important decision. How do we put a requirement in our specs that we user agents to do this. Why the user agent and not the author
17:38:05 <jcraig> q+
17:38:09 <jamesn> ack me
17:38:16 <cyns> Janina: Authors have a lot to cover
17:38:44 <jcraig> q+ to use timer example
17:38:50 <Jem> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2022#ARIA_.26_APA_Joint_Meeting_2
17:39:04 <cyns> Jamesn: We already have that in ARIA and user agents could choose to do that now. timer has a spec'd behavior. UA could already do this
17:39:05 <sarah_h> sarah_h has joined #aria
17:39:19 <cyns> Janina: COGA users won't be using A11y APIs
17:39:27 <cyns> Jamesn: it's in the DOM too. What is missing?
17:39:33 <matatk> q+
17:39:40 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #aria
17:39:49 <cyns> Jamesn: One of the intents behind live regions is that user agents could choose to do something with it
17:39:51 <JohnRochford> present+
17:40:04 <cyns> Jamesn: aria-live off doesnt' current do anyting in UA
17:40:10 <cyns> Jcraig: some do
17:40:38 <cyns> Janina: Arrive-Can Android app did that
17:41:01 <jamesn> q?
17:41:06 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:41:06 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to use timer example
17:41:07 <jcraig> ack me
17:41:40 <cyns> jcraig: also using Timer as an example. VoiceOver implementation of live=off is that it only makes announcements if the timer is focused
17:42:24 <cyns> jcraig: assertive and polite are often mis-used. When Apple implemented live regions, there were bad examples. Video player that used status and updated constantly
17:43:01 <cyns> jcraig: there are instances of sites that are still badly coded. Voiceover has a "kill switch" for live regions. Hope we eventually make it site specfic
17:43:22 <cyns> jcraig: these aren't things in the spec that we tell authors to do. it's implemetnation detail
17:43:24 <cyns> q+
17:43:27 <jamesn> ack matatk
17:43:47 <BGaraventa> +q
17:44:12 <cyns> matak: If we wanted to do experimentation we could make a browser extension that would take the info that's in the dom. and then we can see what people like
17:44:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #aria
17:44:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
17:44:51 <cyns> jcraig: and you could see what's missing and what doesn't work well. We know re-doing live-region is a big project. feedback would be good
17:44:53 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
17:45:09 <jamesn> q+ aaronlev
17:45:26 <jcraig> cyns: also wanted to mention there are some uses to live region... some are self voicing
17:45:28 <jcraig> q+
17:45:32 <jcraig> be aware of that
17:45:33 <matatk> q+ janina
17:45:34 <jamesn> ack cyns
17:45:45 <jcraig> q+ to mention self voicing live regions
17:45:51 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
17:45:58 <JohnRochford> q+
17:46:34 <jcraig> s/be aware of that/cyns: so be aware of that/
17:46:41 <cyns> bgaraventa: use cases that act differently. Timers and progress bars annoying and changing frequency makes sense. but in a live chat you don't want to limit. might be harmful if all treated the same way
17:46:44 <cyns> q+
17:47:25 <cyns> bgaraventa: chatting with your bank. You've set live regions only 15 seconds. you get all the messages all together
17:47:30 <jamesn> ack aaronlev
17:47:37 <cyns> jcraig: that's what live=off is intended for
17:48:05 <jcraig> s/live=off is intended for/live=off vs police vs assertive is intended for/
17:48:11 <cyns> aleventhal: also talk to Travid Leitheid at msft about new work to make announcesments from javascript
17:48:36 <cyns> Aleventhal: they have a list of things that need fixes. these should be added
17:48:51 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:48:51 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention self voicing live regions
17:49:05 <cyns> jamesnurthen: we have a bunch of issues on this
17:49:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> Confirmation of action link, https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/713
17:49:35 <aaronlev> "Confirmation of Action" aka ariaNotify being worked on by Travis Leithead from MS: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pz7KQUgd3zjjH7aTWFTFBEps_GrxXF3pZjaV8H76WjA/edit
17:49:36 <jamesn> q?
17:49:47 <cyns> jcraig: responding to cyns about self-voicing apps using live regions. I helped work on one. iWork for iCloud does this. Google Docs has done this in the past.
17:50:03 <cyns> jcraig: no one who has built one things it's the best way
17:50:25 <JohnRochford> q-
17:50:32 <cyns> jcraig: usually there are 2 live regions, 1 for deletions and 1 for everything else. and a content-editable that moves around
17:50:37 <jamesn> qq+
17:50:47 <jamesn> ack me
17:50:47 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to react to jcraig
17:50:58 <cyns> jcraig: building a screen reader into their app. Way more complicated than anyone should have to do
17:51:43 <cyns> jamesn: even apps that aren't self-voicing will have a live-region to work around bugs or gaps. Adobe does this for table selection becuase it doesn't work well in screen readers
17:51:45 <jamesn> ack janina
17:52:02 <jcraig> s/anyone should have to do/any web developer should have to do/
17:52:02 <cyns> janina: from the WAI-ADAPT perspective it's not just voicing, it's also display
17:52:19 <jamesn> q- cyns
17:52:28 <cyns> janina: would like to know where to add pain points to javascript api
17:53:22 <JohnRochford> q+
17:53:31 <cyns> aleventhal: who would like to coordinate with Travis? Want to make sure they are aware of pain points since they are implementing now
17:53:52 <cyns> janina: happy to help
17:53:54 <jamesn> ack JohnRochford
17:54:37 <cyns> johnr: I've had trouble with self-voicing apps interfering with screen reader. Shouldn't be self-voicing by default
17:54:52 <Jem> present+ DavidFazio
17:55:02 <cyns> * jem Travis is at microsoft
17:55:11 <Jem> present+ JohnRochford
17:55:13 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:55:33 <JohnRochford> q+
17:55:51 <jamesn> ack JohnRochford
17:55:59 <cyns> davidFazio: self voicing might be ok if you can turn it off. It's not just for people with screen readers. It's also for people with cognative disabilities. Research reading aloud can help
17:56:15 <matatk> q+
17:56:19 <cyns> john r: no sufficient for voice app to be turned off immediately
17:56:26 <cyns> q+
17:56:27 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
17:56:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
17:56:34 <jcraig> q+
17:56:43 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
17:56:43 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
17:56:51 <cyns> davidF: why are we only talking about screen-readers
17:57:07 <cyns> john r: app doesn't know which you are
17:57:12 <cyns> q?
17:57:18 <jamesn> ack matatk
17:57:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 to keeping in mind people who benefit from "screen reading" without being users of screen readers
17:57:52 <cyns> matatk: When we talk about self-voicing apps, we could be talking about live-regions for screen readers vs. voice api to do voice for everyone
17:57:58 <jamesn> ack cyns
17:58:07 <jcraig> q+ to mention that these APIs are available to more AT than just screen readers...
17:58:14 <jamesn> ack Lionel_Wolberger
17:58:45 <matatk> s/voice for everyone/voice for everyone, and maybe there is a preference to be considered here./
17:59:03 <jcraig> ack me
17:59:05 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:59:16 <cyns> lionel: maybe use a different word for self-voicing. People do enjoy multi-modality of reading and voice together. would be good for aria to know about it. and it's very annoying for screen reader user to have lots of extra voices
17:59:42 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria
18:00:10 <cyns> jcraig: don't think it's true that live regions are only used by screen readers. maybe other at uses it? I don't know if that's implemented. but the spec doesn't prevent that
18:00:27 <matatk> +1 to James re live regions being useful to screen magnifier users
18:00:43 <cyns> jamesn: agree others can use it if they want to
18:00:44 <matatk> s/live regions being/live regions being potentially/
18:00:50 <cyns> cyns: but they aren't
18:01:18 <jcraig> s/I don't know if that's implemented./I don't recall whether it is implemented in Switch+Speech, or Zoom+Speech, or Spoken Announcements./
18:01:53 <cyns> david: i made a learning management system that speaks
18:02:10 <cyns> david: we need to think broader
18:02:12 <NeilS> q+
18:02:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
18:02:46 <jamesn> zakim, open the queue
18:02:46 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is open
18:03:17 <cyns> @@@: Math is a problem with aria-live. It has some deficiencies.
18:03:21 <jamesn> subtopic: decorative images
18:03:25 <cyns> jamesn: please file issues
18:03:51 <cyns> topic: presentational image role
18:04:09 <cyns> jamesn: issue has been created where people are asking for presentational image
18:04:33 <matatk> q+ janina
18:04:37 <cyns> jamesn: sometimes they are things people want and sometimes they don't. Describe images. user could choose whether to use them
18:04:39 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/Overview.html
18:05:27 <cyns> jamesn: has a bunch of people with different skin tones, one with a guide dog, one with cane
18:05:44 <cyns> jamesn: Needs better description
18:06:28 <cyns> jamesn: I've seen a bunch of presentations with this as background. don't want it described on every slide. But, if you have one slide shared, it might be important. User preference at that time should be taken into account
18:07:00 <JohnRochford> q+
18:07:02 <cyns> jamesn: there are probably users who for cognitive reasons might not want that image. user preference how much to show
18:07:25 <matatk> q+
18:07:30 <cyns> jamesn: should you be able to simplify? for example sponsors
18:07:35 <jcraig> q+
18:07:38 <cyns> q+
18:07:45 <jamesn> ack janina
18:07:54 <scotto> q+
18:07:55 <cyns> jamesn: less importatn images that can be configured by user
18:08:18 <jcraig> q+ to mention spatial navigation importance of arguably presentational images
18:08:43 <Judy> q+
18:08:53 <cyns> janina: we thought we were ready for CR with 6 attributes, but there was a TAG issue that fell through the cracks. We're not moving to CR. TAG wants more documentation about how the attributes meet COGA requirements
18:09:28 <cyns> janina: We are rethinking how to move forward the parts that TAG thought was ready. AAC symbols will probably come out first. We've had some good discussions during the conference
18:09:34 <Judy> q+ to clarify my understanding of the TAG's misunderstanding, unless those have been overtaken by events since the joint meeting
18:10:02 <cyns> janina:  simplification needs to be more detailed. one persons simplfication might be another persons obfuscation
18:10:16 <cyns> janina: Good info first time on the page, but not every time
18:10:24 <jamesn> ack JohnRochford
18:10:30 <cyns> janina: will be a bit before it ends up in a spec
18:10:50 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria
18:11:31 <cyns> john r: like the idea of reducing cognitive load. But also consider contextually relevant images. Another use case is having symbols appear above words in sentences. That could be togglable by the user. We should consider this use case
18:12:00 <cyns> jamesn: don't want a role. I think it should be an attribute on image. should be in ADAPT
18:12:01 <jamesn> ack matatk
18:12:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
18:12:34 <cyns> matatk: We have a use case about symbols. I have a demo of what ADAPT can do
18:12:47 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
18:12:51 <matatk> file:///Users/mtatpg/projects/distracting-sign-up-form/distracting-sign-up-form.html
18:13:29 <scotto> hey, i remember 1999
18:14:01 <cyns> matatk: demo has a timer, and animated gif, marquee becomes just text. prefers reduced motion turns off animate gif
18:14:22 <cyns> matatk: ADAPT can turn off the other things
18:14:42 <cyns> use case is for people who would not be able to cope with anything other than this on the page
18:15:04 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria
18:15:10 <jamesn> q?
18:15:17 <scotto> q-
18:15:27 <cyns> david: attention is one of the biggest things for exhaustion. movement is a big problme
18:15:29 <jamesn> ack jcraig
18:15:29 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention spatial navigation importance of arguably presentational images
18:15:29 <jcraig> ack me
18:16:24 <cyns> jcraig: internal apple example. Tips app on iPhones (not web). Is this image important? It's one giant image with a little text at the bottom. some content people said it just shows the mood and not really that important
18:17:10 <cyns> jcraig: Spacial impact of interface. It was a big graphic. Able to touch in the screen and know what's there, even though it's decorative
18:17:15 <jamesn> ack cyns
18:18:07 <spectranaut_> cyns: people disagree about what is the important content, for example, ad servers
18:18:40 <jcraig> q+ to discuss based on role, required field, etc
18:18:59 <spectranaut_> cyns: sounds difficult to categorize how important things are different for different users and content servers
18:19:23 <jamesn> q+
18:19:42 <spectranaut_> cyns: like images on pages, at a previous job we were trying to provide an idea of a diversity of tasks?? how to communicate with alt?
18:19:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
18:19:50 <jamesn> ack Judy
18:19:50 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to clarify my understanding of the TAG's misunderstanding, unless those have been overtaken by events since the joint meeting
18:19:51 <Fazio> Fazio has joined #aria
18:19:56 <sarah_h> sarah_h has joined #aria
18:19:58 <Fazio> present+
18:20:04 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
18:20:04 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
18:20:15 <cyns> cyns: also consider needs of site owners. Ads or sponsors may be important
18:21:25 <jcraig> qv?
18:21:33 <cyns> judy: TAG marked the issue as closed. communication issue.
18:22:09 <cyns> judy: at least for due-dillience, we should get clarified assessment with TAG in APA
18:22:42 <cyns> judy: if it turns out that it's not good, then that's one thing. But let's make sure we're not losing it due to miscommunications
18:22:57 <cyns> janina: Let's figure out a path forward
18:23:12 <jamesn> ack Lionel_Wolberger
18:24:05 <cyns> lionel: co-chair of ADAPT spec. Some new thoughts from this TPAC. media-queries represent hard decisions made by site owners about what is important
18:24:52 <cyns> lionel: Group is open to rethinking, in general, how presentation images should be handled. "mood" images are sometimes removed on smaller screens
18:25:21 <jcraig> ack me
18:25:21 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss based on role, required field, etc
18:25:22 <cyns> lionel: Blind people have tone and pitch awareness. APA looking at modifying pitch, voice, etc.
18:26:49 <cyns> jcraig: Safari reader has some logic to remove distracting things.
18:27:04 <Fazio> q+
18:27:52 <cyns> jcraig: in the example, there are required fields that are usually marked up. There can be a "critical" or "moderate" view. Can be done as an extension or grease monkey script
18:28:15 <cyns> matatk: ADAPT is using extensions.
18:28:42 <cyns> matatk: could be an authoring tool
18:29:07 <cyns> jcraig: we're not going to do presentational images, but will work with APA on use cases for adapt
18:29:09 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:29:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-aria-minutes.html jamesn
18:30:11 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has left #aria
18:30:44 <spectranaut_> hi everyone please join our meeting once again?
18:31:26 <cyns> scribe-
18:33:37 <Brandel> Brandel has joined #aria
18:33:37 <klausw> klausw has joined #aria
18:33:58 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #aria
18:37:08 <yonet> yonet has joined #aria
18:37:12 <Leonard> Leonard has joined #aria
18:37:23 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #aria
18:37:31 <cabanier> present+
18:38:26 <cyns> present+
18:38:41 <Holli> Holli has joined #ARIA
18:38:52 <ada> ada has joined #ARIA
18:39:20 <yonet> present+
18:39:26 <yonet> agendum: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/39
18:39:43 <bajones> bajones has joined #aria
18:40:10 <Leonard> present+
18:40:55 <bkardell_> present+
18:41:00 <jamesn> present+
18:41:05 <ada> present+
18:41:09 <atsushi> present+
18:41:13 <Will_C> Will_C has joined #aria
18:41:15 <spectranaut_> marcus: apple has proposed a new element for html, a model element
18:41:32 <alcooper> alcooper has joined #aria
18:41:32 <spectranaut_> marcus: it allows developers to put in place a three dimensional potential interactive animated graphic
18:41:32 <bialpio> bialpio has joined #aria
18:41:38 <igarashi_> igarashi_ has joined #aria
18:41:47 <spectranaut_> marcus: there are accessibility challenges. it doesn't have a dom -- it may in the future
18:41:49 <igarashi_> present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
18:41:50 <cyns> q+
18:41:53 <bialpio> present+ Piotr_Bialecki
18:42:05 <jamesn> zakim, open the queue
18:42:05 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is open
18:42:06 <spectranaut_> marcus: it would be good to know what the accessibility requirements are, and get them right from the beginning
18:42:08 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #aria
18:42:11 <cyns> q+
18:42:13 <spectranaut_> marcus: it can also be used in VR space
18:42:16 <jamesn> q-
18:42:19 <spectranaut_> marcus: same model both places
18:42:48 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria
18:42:57 <spectranaut_> marcus: apple has been working on accessibility in VR space
18:43:04 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
18:43:22 <spectranaut_> marcos: is anyone interested in collabing with us long term?
18:43:44 <jamesn> q+
18:43:44 <spectranaut_> marcos: the elements can be tactile ???
18:43:59 <jamesn> ack cyns
18:44:01 <spectranaut_> marcos: we want to go beyond an alt attribute for these things
18:44:13 <spectranaut_> cyns: there is some overlap with accessibility 2d canvas
18:44:21 <spectranaut_> cyns: we should gather your use cases
18:44:36 <jamesn> q-
18:44:40 <spectranaut_> cyns: we tried to have an accessibility object model for that, and there were some early concerns, so we are going back to use cases
18:44:51 <spectranaut_> cyns: and I am working on that would love your input to find overlap
18:45:05 <spectranaut_> marcos: if we don't need to layer it like AOM
18:45:18 <spectranaut_> marcos: we need to have this discussion with kronos group, apples format
18:45:32 <jamesn> q+
18:45:33 <spectranaut_> cyns: aom is one solution for some problems, maybe not the right solution for all problems
18:45:50 <spectranaut_> jamesn: clarifying question: we talking about an object or the three space?
18:45:51 <jamesn> ack me
18:45:57 <spectranaut_> marcos: everything is up for discussion
18:46:10 <spectranaut_> marcos: it's a view port, a cut out into 3d space
18:46:19 <spectranaut_> marcos: that you can interact with
18:46:23 <spectranaut_> marcos: not virtual reality
18:46:38 <spectranaut_> marcos: you can even make your company logo with it, and the logo can be moved around a little bit
18:46:51 <Brandel> q+
18:47:03 <spectranaut_> marcos: you can use it as decoration, or in educational spaces, or product pages (showing products)
18:47:15 <spectranaut_> marcos: what is the point of focus?
18:47:21 <jamesn> ack Brandel
18:47:41 <spectranaut_> Brandel: apple has a proposed implementation present in safari behind a flag
18:47:46 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #aria
18:47:51 <spectranaut_> Brandel: the models are being displayed inline in the context of the page
18:47:58 <marcosc> present+
18:48:14 <spectranaut_> Brandel: we have controls for animation to play or pause or skip to peice of animation, and to tumble it
18:48:23 <spectranaut_> Brandel: this could be a reference implementation
18:48:27 <jamesn> q?
18:48:45 <spectranaut_> jamesn: what specific things do you want from aira?
18:49:06 <spectranaut_> marcosc: mostly I'd like to make you aware this work is starting, we have significant industry interest it seems
18:49:14 <spectranaut_> jamesn: is there any adobe people involved?
18:49:19 <spectranaut_> marcosc: I don't think so
18:49:43 <Jem>  Boaz came to ARIA APG meeting about geospace accessibility topic a month ago. I am wondering whether this is relevant to the dicussion we had.
18:49:43 <chlane> s/aira/ARIA/
18:50:33 <spectranaut_> cyns: this has similarity to 2d canvas is that it is rendered but doesn't have an object model
18:50:54 <spectranaut_> cyns: like how do you handle space that is bigger than the dom/viewport
18:51:12 <spectranaut_> marcosc: an example is that you start at street level, but zoom out to a whole city
18:51:29 <spectranaut_> cyns: one use case, if you don't have the whole dom, how do you get to the heading on page 200
18:51:52 <jamesn> q?
18:51:57 <spectranaut_> cyns: also how do you find things that are there, activate the things, drill into things, without 2million dom nodes around
18:52:08 <spectranaut_> cyns: text editing is an example of things, editing of shapes
18:52:19 <spectranaut_> cyns: adding objectings/removing objects?
18:52:31 <spectranaut_> marcosc: editing is not something we are thinking about right now actually
18:52:41 <bajones> q+
18:53:00 <bkardell_> q+
18:53:16 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: you started the convo with a question about collaborating, it seems to me like the most important thing we can do is talk about the process for how we would work together
18:53:44 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: one of the most important things for us to discuss early on is what are the requirements -- process requirements -- for getting accessibility right the first time
18:54:04 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: Aria is having process discussions yesterday and today, we are revisitng
18:54:05 <cyns> draft doc to gather use cases (name is tentative) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r9csj_b_u9s_8n09X2jao1QjJpPDBmRfJ05NWVOgjF0/edit?usp=sharing
18:54:18 <Jem> From Scott Vinkle's blog post, I see these aria info.
18:54:25 <Jem> WAI-ARIA Roles, States, and Properties
18:54:25 <Jem> The 3D Model has role application.
18:54:25 <Jem> The 3D Model has the aria-roledescription property set to 3D model.
18:54:25 <Jem> The 3D Model has the aria-label property set to provide an accessible name.
18:54:26 <Jem> Optionally, the aria-describedby property is set on the 3D Model to indicate how to interact with the component.
18:54:26 <Jem> The Live Announcement element has role status.
18:54:26 <Jem> The Full Screen control has an aria-pressed state. When the button is toggled on, the value of this state is true, and when toggled off, the state is false.
18:54:50 <jamesn> q+ to say user testing with whatever you (we) come up with is going to be crucial
18:54:53 <spectranaut_>  Matt_King this is a place to create new paradigms, but we need an appropriate level of research to do it correct. there is so much research not related to accessibility in this space... to think we could get accessibility right without a robust exploratory program, with real people, that takes up a lot of time
18:55:07 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: we can't really just paste our existing paradigms into this whole new world
18:55:36 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: if there is an implementation available in safari, we should start that research
18:55:38 <marcosc> q+
18:55:45 <bkardell_> q-
18:55:52 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: if that research can be out in the open (which might be hard for apple) then we can have a real discussion about it
18:56:23 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: we can make architectural decisions based on research results -- but we need community collaboration and input on that process
18:56:37 <jamesn> ack bajones
18:56:43 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: I think we need user experience and research institution level to answer cyns question
18:56:51 <jamesn> q-
18:57:21 <spectranaut_> bajones: we are looking to accessibility canvas... we have 2d model tag up coming.. we have webxr API based on canvas protocols and webgl specifical
18:57:32 <spectranaut_> bajones: almost entirely inaccessible
18:57:35 <yonet> What we are talking about as model-element specificly is very similar to google model-viewer linked here: https://modelviewer.dev/
18:57:36 <spectranaut_> bajones: ???
18:57:52 <spectranaut_> bajones: how far along is the canvas work?
18:58:10 <jamesn> q?
18:58:11 <spectranaut_> cyns: some former googlers have code behind a flag that makes a tree of accessible objects added to the dom
18:58:22 <spectranaut_> cyns: but there is privacy concern so it hasn't moved forward
18:58:46 <spectranaut_> cyns: when moving from dos to windows, a 2d graphic world, added a whole new API, we don't have pixel based web apps
18:59:01 <spectranaut_> cyns: because it was assumed the web would have a dom
18:59:50 <spectranaut_> cyns: there was official story for accessible in canvas, but it didn't work out - no one used it
18:59:52 <jamesn> q?
19:00:09 <spectranaut_> cyns: svg is sort of like that, mapping for every object, but it is heavy
19:00:18 <spectranaut_> bajones: please share any resources
19:00:22 <spectranaut_> bajones: so we can keep in sync
19:00:34 <spectranaut_> cyns: I put links above and I'm happy to meet
19:00:38 <jamesn> ack marcosc
19:01:09 <spectranaut_> marcosc: I want to follow up on Matt_King and cyns -- about cyns, we have some experience, Matt_King said we have tried various approaches -- hopefully there are some ideas about what works and what doesn
19:01:38 <spectranaut_> marcosc: at the same time, from the apple side, we have been doing this work for a few years, we invested heavily on the a11y side with real research
19:02:02 <spectranaut_> marcosc: at the same time we are constrained across all operating systems and the different accessibility APIs
19:02:16 <jamesn> q?
19:02:22 <spectranaut_> marcosc: microsoft probably has feedback
19:02:36 <spectranaut_> marcosc: and VR has been around since the 80s, lot of research since then
19:02:40 <spectranaut_> marcosc: and it is expanding
19:02:45 <Brandel> q+
19:02:58 <spectranaut_> marcosc: I think we are in a good place to make good tech decisions, the research is there we need to bring it together
19:02:59 <jamesn> ack Brandel
19:03:21 <spectranaut_> Brandel: as a proposal, our model is an attempt to describe the minimum useful features for anyone to use
19:03:34 <spectranaut_> Brandel: later down the line to add other interaction modalities
19:03:40 <Matt_King> q?
19:03:47 <spectranaut_> Brandel: for example, editing is not possible in our initial thing
19:03:55 <spectranaut_> Brandel: would like to know, what are the simple must haves
19:04:02 <spectranaut_> Brandel: and where are hidden complexities
19:04:09 <Matt_King> q+
19:04:22 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
19:05:39 <marcosc> q+
19:05:41 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: I'm not aware of relevant research ... like if we make technical decisions about what are the minimum requirements, these decisions are can't be made without understanding how the content information will be presented to users, or if it satisfies the needs of users, how can we do any of that without the prototype and exploration of those protoypes with users?
19:05:42 <bkardell_> q+
19:05:58 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: like describing 3d content to a blind user? there has been research on that?
19:06:52 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: seems like we should be talking about a spec development process that involves checking our selves along the way in the development of accessibility apis historically - -we guess as the needs, building something, let people use it and find out whats difficult, then add bandaids
19:07:03 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: this is way more complicated than anything we have ever done
19:07:19 <jamesn> ack marcosc
19:07:19 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: so with trepidation, I say, it's going to take some thought and work
19:07:35 <yonet> XRAccess is a great source for some of the research going on: https://xraccess.org/research/
19:07:45 <spectranaut_> marcosc: exactly to your point, we have made the model implementation already available behind a flag FOR people to explore
19:08:23 <spectranaut_> marcosc: we have a degree of confidence in what we are doing, but I agree, this is tremendously useful
19:08:53 <spectranaut_> marcosc: we have an inaccessible prototype, so lets figure it out how to make this model accessible
19:09:02 <jamesn> ack bkardell_
19:09:36 <BGaraventa> +q
19:09:44 <spectranaut_> bkardell_: I have a lot of difference comments. one, specific feedback, you mentioned research, can you put links in the explainer? people coming in looking at explainer would like to know right away where did this come from?
19:10:10 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:10:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:10:15 <spectranaut_> bkardell_: also a question: you said it's completely inaccessible? I thought description was supported
19:10:30 <spectranaut_> marcosc: it's an html element so anything can be put on the html element
19:10:56 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
19:10:56 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
19:11:26 <yonet> q+
19:11:27 <spectranaut_> bkardell_: last thing, I'm very interested in accessibility of the canvas and AOM and immersive web I would like to keep working on this issue in particular
19:11:47 <spectranaut_> yonet: what can we give you to get your help?
19:12:13 <spectranaut_> jamesn: seems like it fits a bit more in the AOM
19:12:31 <spectranaut_> jcraig: maybe a ycg spin off
19:12:43 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
19:12:44 <spectranaut_> jcraig: wicg
19:13:01 <cyns_> cyns_ has joined #aria
19:13:21 <jcraig> s/ycg/wicg/
19:13:27 <cyns_> Where canvas a11y gets discussed https://github.com/WICG/aom
19:13:41 <spectranaut_> bajones: the people who want to participate from accessibility and immersive web-- the overlap is close to a circle
19:13:59 <spectranaut_> bajones: don't we have a repo for accessibility in the immersive web.. or a document...
19:15:01 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: but people who want to responded to accessibility questions would be overwhelmed by everything else -- so maybe a seperate repo would be better, just to organize work
19:15:37 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: someplace we need things like accessibility road map and plan and structured approach, a "label" is kind of too understructured
19:16:16 <ada> https://xraccess.org
19:16:23 <spectranaut_> ada: it's not a w3c group. but here is a other group ^
19:16:37 <spectranaut_> ada: they do a lot of xr accessibility research
19:16:44 <spectranaut_> ada: some experiments with web xr
19:17:00 <spectranaut_> cyns_: maybe adding that to an explainer with high level road maps
19:17:18 <spectranaut_> jamesn: lets have a check in meeting in a few months time? we can com eback in a couple of months
19:18:26 <spectranaut_> bajones: agree
19:19:40 <spectranaut_> bajones: we want these topics in immersive web more often... we should probably make a solution that doesn't just work for webxr
19:21:32 <alcooper> alcooper has left #aria
19:21:48 <Brandel> Brandel has left #aria
19:49:00 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
19:53:12 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
19:56:41 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
20:10:45 <Judy> Judy has left #aria
20:11:19 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
20:21:36 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
20:29:31 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
20:34:37 <sohara> sohara has joined #aria
20:45:44 <jamesn> topic: selectmenu
20:47:46 <chlane> scribe+
20:48:08 <sarah_h> sarah_h has joined #aria
20:48:24 <chlane> scribe
20:48:41 <chlane> s/scribe//
20:48:58 <chlane> scribe-
20:49:09 <chlane> scribe+
20:49:51 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
20:50:09 <chlane> sarah_h and scott created a new doc
20:50:09 <sarah_h> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12mYmK0_qkAMERntVFqqWYwLw2hseGGzZKbRYZ9M37Yo/edit
20:50:42 <chlane> style optiions icons images
20:50:46 <jamesn> zakim, open the queue
20:50:47 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is open
20:50:53 <chlane> it should play that role on the way
20:50:59 <chlane> degree of customizability
20:51:04 <chlane> content model within
20:51:07 <chlane> options
20:51:11 <chlane> things like that
20:51:13 <chlane> state now
20:51:27 <chlane> select menu permissive on purpose
20:51:34 <chlane> it wont kick random button out
20:51:43 <chlane> browser console warnings occur
20:51:51 <chlane> secondary actions proposal
20:51:57 <chlane> 2 sections
20:52:03 <chlane> buttons
20:52:17 <chlane> actions make them accessible, allow things in between option
20:52:24 <chlane> keep it permissive
20:52:33 <chlane> to make things ..
20:52:56 <chlane> goal is to be a11y by default
20:53:03 <chlane> with intended default usage
20:53:13 <chlane> like correclty using <select>
20:53:21 <chlane> icons within options
20:53:26 <chlane> extra divs generics
20:53:30 <chlane> without issues
20:53:54 <chlane> intersting, put a button between options.in theory a table
20:53:58 <chlane> between options
20:54:04 <jamesn> q?
20:54:04 <cyns> q+
20:54:23 <jamesn> q- BGara
20:54:24 <chlane> MattK back up a little
20:54:36 <chlane> comparing <select> and openui selectmenu
20:55:04 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria
20:55:10 <jamesn> qv
20:55:16 <jamesn> qv?
20:55:20 <chlane> new element <selectmenu>
20:55:25 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
20:55:30 <chlane> like <select> 2.0
20:55:33 <chlane> styleable
20:55:39 <chlane> fix all complaints
20:55:42 <chlane> about styling
20:55:50 <chlane> and cant fit random stuff
20:56:09 <chlane> explainer has examples
20:56:13 <chlane> that are visual
20:56:19 <chlane> jamesn: theres a demo page
20:56:35 <chlane> aaronlev: can you have a text field to filter?
20:56:45 <chlane> sarah_h: not an autocomplete
20:57:20 <chlane> one use case
20:57:30 <chlane> text input in popup
20:57:36 <chlane> woild trigger console warning
20:57:46 <jamesn> https://microsoftedge.github.io/Demos/selectmenu/
20:57:51 <chlane> cyns: can make combobox with select element
20:58:04 <chlane> sarah_h: the trigger is still a button
20:58:11 <chlane> content model is more permissive
20:58:17 <chlane> in <seletmenu>
20:58:27 <chlane> cyns: color dialog
20:58:34 <chlane> conceptually picking from a set
20:58:45 <chlane> mattk it could render as a dialog
20:58:58 <chlane> sarah_h: if author were to insert misc interactive content
20:59:12 <chlane> would require semantica and keyboard changes
20:59:24 <chlane> selectmenu will not support that
20:59:29 <chlane> wont prevent
20:59:32 <chlane> console warnings
20:59:48 <chlane> <selectdialog> ship soon as a goal
20:59:50 <cyns> https://open-ui.org/prototypes/selectmenu
21:00:16 <chlane> mattk like magic in css toggle not conflate
21:00:32 <jamesn> q?
21:00:37 <chlane> cyns: some devs do all some dont
21:00:41 <jamesn> ack cyns
21:00:52 <chlane> cyns: what would happen in a11y tree?
21:00:56 <chlane> sarah_h: it would show up
21:01:00 <spectranaut_> s/mattk like magic in css toggle not conflate/Matt_King: wary of magic in either case, in css toggle or here
21:01:04 <chlane> menu item menu item buttom
21:01:15 <chlane> option option button option
21:01:39 <chlane> mattk listbox has always had option
21:01:53 <chlane> cyns: listitem
21:02:26 <chlane> sarah_h: arrowing moves through options
21:02:33 <chlane> tabbing selects and closes
21:02:47 <chlane> if button in there it is undefined behavior
21:03:00 <chlane> sarah_h: how much should browsers repair?
21:03:08 <chlane> button is the simplest example
21:03:28 <chlane> if someone inserts a textarea or tree in there
21:03:42 <chlane> mattk how can you have the error?
21:03:52 <chlane> console errors
21:04:00 <chlane> don't do that this is not a11y
21:04:10 <chlane> for a combination of tech reasons
21:04:23 <chlane> mason F would be able to do that
21:04:27 <jamesn> q+ to say that presumably a11y checking tools can error this too
21:04:35 <chlane> cyns: trying to avoid xml yellow screen of death
21:04:57 <chlane> sarah_h: hard to get changes approved
21:05:22 <chlane> sarah_h: techical, political up in the air we may want to allow it for certain content
21:05:34 <chlane> before or after but not interspersed
21:05:47 <chlane> kicking everything out would preclude that
21:06:00 <chlane> aaronlev: mason said we would go back to divs
21:06:13 <jamesn> ack ja
21:06:13 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that presumably a11y checking tools can error this too
21:06:17 <chlane> cyns: strict parsing is why xml didn't get picked up for the web
21:06:26 <chlane> jamesn: checkers can error on this too
21:06:34 <chlane> easily
21:06:38 <spectranaut_> aaronlev: if anything is disallowed, it will lead people back to using divs, and we get way more accessibility when people don't use divs
21:06:38 <chlane> cyns: console error
21:06:45 <chlane> chrome has built in
21:06:54 <chlane> sarah_h: implemented in chromium
21:07:05 <sarah_h> q?
21:07:30 <chlane> go the next thing after
21:07:38 <chlane> sarah_h: labelling options
21:07:46 <chlane> current there is a label atttribute
21:07:50 <chlane> not styleable
21:08:05 <chlane> icons images extra spans not possibel
21:08:14 <chlane> repurpose legend element is the plan
21:08:33 <jamesn> q?
21:08:46 <chlane> mattk permissive doesnt' work so console errors occur
21:09:09 <chlane> will the spec still say something normative?
21:09:24 <chlane> other things doing the non permissive content model
21:09:38 <chlane> jamesn: it will work right with mouse users
21:09:50 <chlane> cyns: layout would be weird
21:10:17 <chlane> mattk make it intentionally bad, they are going to go to divs
21:10:32 <chlane> jamesn: quickly move to the thing that does everythign
21:10:41 <chlane> s/everythign/everything/
21:10:51 <chlane> sarah_h: keep people from using divs
21:10:54 <chlane> best plan
21:11:09 <chlane> jamesn: how does it relate to popup?
21:11:23 <chlane> internals are intended to use as the <selectmenu> popup
21:11:36 <chlane> jamesn: until <selectdialog>
21:11:50 <chlane> sarah_h: no element to recreate the group of options
21:12:08 <chlane> talked about but resolution to not hold up selectmenu
21:12:18 <chlane> greater demand
21:12:32 <chlane> cyns: checkboxes more common way to achieve that goal
21:13:24 <chlane> sarah_h: raise as option, using menu semantics instead of listbox option semantics
21:13:46 <chlane> mixing checkbox with menuitemradiobutton is possible
21:14:01 <chlane> Mattk way to go just because of the options
21:14:09 <chlane> matt k makes sense
21:14:16 <chlane> cyns: looks like menus
21:14:27 <jamesn> q+ to say I din't expect such easy agreement on menu
21:14:43 <chlane> sarah_h: personal exp, menus have better screen reader usability
21:15:06 <chlane> mattk one of the things about menu... may or may not be different
21:15:20 <chlane> when it opens and you activate a radio
21:15:39 <chlane> it is temporal and immediately closes, is that what you imagine
21:15:57 <chlane> sarah_h: yeah, space does not always select seems like a good idea
21:16:09 <chlane> mattk specifically a single select
21:16:19 <chlane> cyns: navigate onchange
21:16:33 <chlane> hit enter and go to other page
21:16:40 <chlane> sarah_h: it has on onchange
21:17:17 <chlane> mattk open a drop down, down arrow, triggers onchange, prevents you from navigating to other menu options
21:17:35 <chlane> jamesn: don't care either way
21:17:45 <chlane> ok with it for changing a value
21:17:51 <chlane> if it works better
21:17:55 <chlane> if for selectmenu
21:18:01 <chlane> why not do the same for select?
21:18:08 <chlane> cyns: list not a menu
21:18:12 <spectranaut_> s/ok with it/ok with select menu/
21:18:20 <chlane> mattk have to look at html aam
21:18:39 <chlane> mattk don't know select is differentiated in terms of single multi
21:18:59 <chlane> jamesn: select mutliple maps to listbox
21:19:13 <chlane> no multiple to combobox
21:19:33 <chlane> cyns: like that menu is separate from listbox
21:19:47 <chlane> mattk we have a select only combobox
21:19:52 <chlane> this is a better way
21:20:01 <chlane> mattk, curious about valu
21:20:12 <chlane> s/valu/value/
21:20:31 <chlane> janky way of getting value from content
21:20:47 <chlane> sarah_h: good point but different then aria combobox
21:20:57 <chlane> this is an actual browser element
21:21:07 <chlane> mattk that is what we do in ARIA
21:21:20 <sarah_h> q?
21:21:25 <chlane> cyns: does a form post
21:21:27 <jamesn> ack jamesn
21:21:27 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say I din't expect such easy agreement on menu
21:21:57 <chlane> sarah_h: everthying is customisable, slot for any html
21:22:18 <chlane> it is not guaranteed to be a string
21:22:27 <chlane> extra way to get a string
21:22:41 <chlane> cyns: name from shadowdom problem
21:23:05 <chlane> mattk have select instead of just showing words you want to show an img of the selected item
21:23:12 <chlane> divs and spans all styled
21:23:17 <chlane> wouldn't we just want
21:23:28 <chlane> soemthing like accname calc
21:23:32 <BGaraventa> +q
21:23:42 <chlane> cyns: difficult to implemement
21:23:49 <chlane> jamesn: simplified accname
21:24:00 <chlane> sarah_h: value attribute on options
21:24:06 <chlane> jamesn: thats not user displayed
21:24:23 <chlane> cyns: example with value attributes?
21:24:45 <chlane> mattk get these examples into experimental pages in the AP
21:24:47 <chlane> G
21:24:50 <cyns> cyns: an example of a form post with a selectmenu
21:25:03 <chlane> if we follow a process like that
21:25:09 <chlane> jamesn: apgalpha
21:25:21 <chlane> sarah_h: useful for popup, toggles
21:25:30 <chlane> mattk other variations
21:25:38 <jamesn> q?
21:25:46 <chlane> mattk depends on browser mapping
21:26:06 <chlane> matt turn on a flag in a browser
21:26:18 <chlane> instructions for examples
21:26:31 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
21:26:40 <chlane> bryanG menu related, put anything in menu?
21:26:50 <chlane> sarah_h: not supposed to but you can
21:27:08 <chlane> bryan API, menu open, close,
21:27:24 <chlane> button activated, rendered menu
21:27:43 <chlane> same construct with menu and menuitem roles
21:27:49 <chlane> wouldnt work in voiceover
21:28:10 <chlane> told them to change back to combobox role and it worked
21:28:26 <chlane> jaws,if you tab into a menu hard to get out
21:28:32 <chlane> can get out of the listbox
21:28:40 <sarah_h> q?
21:28:50 <chlane> mattk have to talk to vispero in the ARiA AT project
21:29:16 <chlane> menu and menuitiem i assumed the openui select menu opens a menu
21:29:26 <chlane> the button isn't really a button
21:29:41 <chlane> its an element with a name and a value
21:29:53 <chlane> sarah_h: popup would have menu semantics
21:30:06 <chlane> matt we don't currenlty wrap in ARIA
21:30:23 <chlane> bryan g be careful
21:30:39 <chlane> to APG
21:30:46 <chlane> hide behind a toggle
21:31:12 <chlane> sarah_h: not an issue, it wont be used if it is not functional
21:31:22 <chlane> jamesn: it shouldnt be available
21:32:46 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #aria
21:33:10 <spectranaut_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12XRwHXkvF_3Lz9ciyGhFHJgZjL4dxAYamBh2WUied2U/edit#
21:33:10 <MichaelC> present+
21:33:19 <CurtBellew> present+
21:33:40 <jamesn> TOPIC: 1.3
21:33:46 <spectranaut_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12XRwHXkvF_3Lz9ciyGhFHJgZjL4dxAYamBh2WUied2U/edit#
21:46:04 <jcraig> q+
21:50:07 <jamesn> ack jcraig
21:51:56 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
21:52:09 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
21:52:44 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+label%3Afeature
21:53:18 <jcraig> jongund hi!
22:04:54 <cyns> AX API	Property: AXValidationError: textual content of the referenced element
22:14:21 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
22:30:36 <bkardell_> present+
22:30:49 <bkardell_> scribenick: bkardell_
22:31:25 <sarah_h> issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440
22:31:25 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1057 - Https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1057/edit>.
22:31:45 <jamesn> zakim, open the queue
22:31:45 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is open
22:32:06 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
22:32:15 <bkardell_> sarah_h: secondary actions refer to actions that are indirectly related in a composite widget, like a close button in tabs
22:32:16 <jamesn> TOPIC: Secondary Actions
22:32:43 <bkardell_> sarah_h: say you have a tree of emails, and each email can be activated, but there are additional buttons to flag, mark as read, delete - those are all secondary actions to the email
22:33:09 <cyns_> cyns_ has joined #aria
22:33:10 <bkardell_> sarah_h: or mute buttons on chats, there are other cases where you can download or share or star
22:33:31 <bkardell_> sarah_h: the issue is that you can't nest interactive elements like buttons, etc in many of those patterns.
22:33:58 <bkardell_> sarah_h: even if you try, they are not exposed semantically - there are no exposed hints that there are additional activabtle things, etc
22:34:39 <bkardell_> sarah_h: so the proposal is aria-actions - it would take a space separated list of ids, similar to some other aria attributes
22:34:55 <bkardell_> sarah_h: it would point to the list of the associated actions - share, star, etc
22:35:49 <sarah_h> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440#issuecomment-1091984559
22:36:00 <sarah_h> Add specific aria-actions attribute with the following requirements:      aria-actions is allowed on all nameable roles     aria-actions may reference any element with a widget role, excluding the container roles of composite widgets (e.g. it could reference a menuitem, but not a menu)  Authoring requirements for aria-actions:      The controls referenced by aria-actions MUST exist in the DOM     Authors MUST provide a keyboard mechanism to navig[CUT]
22:36:12 <bkardell_> sarah_h: the associated actions just need to be idref based links - they must exist... the idea is that we expose this so that screen readers can say somthing like "3 additional associated actions". Proposal is that aria would only specify that thse should be exposed and that AT must provide a way to navigate those, not how
22:38:02 <bkardell_> sarah_h: prosal says it may be used on any nameable role. the authoring requirements MUST exist in the DOM, authors must provide a keyboard mechanism to navigate to them, it must be discoverable -- (it is written in better detail in the issue) - there is also something in there about how it affects accessible name
22:38:36 <jcraig> q+ to ask about the accname suggestion
22:38:40 <bkardell_> sarah_h: there is also a change to children presentational so that those children can still be exposed even in presentational=true
22:38:55 <Matt_King> q+
22:38:55 <bkardell_> sarah_h: I've talked to reps at jaws and narrator - they seem positive/on board
22:39:07 <bkardell_> jcraig: this is a great idea. I love it. you are brilliant.
22:39:40 <bkardell_> jcraig: A couple of things... I'd asked about the heuristic detection... I'll come back to it... the other question was about accessible name
22:40:07 <bkardell_> jcraig: everytime someone suggest a change to accname, everyone says "oh no this is so complicated"
22:40:26 <bkardell_> (some discussion, yes.... it's complicated)
22:41:18 <bkardell_> sarah_h: the elements with the reference must exist in the dom... you could add aria actions only when it is focused or hovered, or you could change opacity or visibility on hover or focus
22:41:30 <jamesn> q+
22:41:35 <jamesn> ack jcraig
22:41:35 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask about the accname suggestion
22:41:36 <bkardell_> jcraig: So they need to exist and be visibile and unobsured
22:41:41 <bkardell_> sarah_h: they just have to exist
22:42:02 <bkardell_> jcraig: should we say it is an error if they are not visible or obscured?
22:42:14 <jamesn> qq+
22:42:18 <bkardell_> jcraig: it would be pretty clear it is not a mouse user
22:42:47 <bkardell_> sarah_h: is that functionally different than things that have opactity 0 today?  I don't think aria actions is different
22:43:10 <BGaraventa> +q
22:43:21 <bkardell_> jcraig: you're right there are a number of ways to detect doesn't negate the need for us to be cautious about expanding the number of ways we can do that
22:43:53 <bkardell_> jcraig: this is specifically called from specifically AT - if they are never rendered only AT will hit them
22:44:17 <bkardell_> jamesn: I thought that part of this was that they would be and keyboard users too would activate them
22:44:27 <jamesn> qq-
22:44:51 <bkardell_> jcraig: it almost seems like if there is an action available we could do some mouse hit testing and make sure that it seems offscreen we don't expose it
22:45:01 <bkardell_> jamesn: there does seem like there is AT work to ensure
22:45:16 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
22:45:30 <jamesn> q-
22:45:36 <bkardell_> jcraig: we should maybe say something about this in the spec to say if it is not visible it shouldn't be vixsible
22:45:51 <bkardell_> Matt_King: AT doesn't move the focus and we can't require focus
22:46:47 <bkardell_> sarah_h: but if someone has this set up to not move focus with the cursor - but then they move their cursor and the menu does not show up, they probably still want to delete it
22:46:49 <wseltzer> wseltzer has joined #aria
22:46:57 <wseltzer> wseltzer has left #aria
22:47:06 <bkardell_> Matt_King: I don't want to have to change my settings to use a website
22:47:20 <bkardell_> jcraig: I am worried that the same pattern could be used by a malicious actor
22:48:00 <bkardell_> Matt_King: I don't think that we can... that's more like a fundamental thing... I don't think we should prevent what is just another flavor of the exact same path that already exists
22:48:23 <bkardell_> jamesn: we should try to distinguish between things that require user actions to detect and those that do not
22:48:34 <jamesn> qv?
22:49:21 <bkardell_> jcraig: the way I think about it is: find out where the element would be rendered - if it is just opactity, the browser could do something here to include that and try to make sure that it's probably a good intent
22:50:35 <bkardell_> sarah_h: with secondary actions it can be added to for example rotor... On their own UI... but aria itself is just saying the author should provide a way to get there - it doesnt give you all of the ways to get there..
22:51:03 <bkardell_> jcraig: we can simulate events on any of this - what I am trying to avoid is privacy cg coming back to us on this
22:51:21 <bkardell_> jamesn: completely preventing may be impossible, but we can do our best
22:51:33 <bkardell_> jamesn: there are easier ways than this
22:52:04 <jamesn> qq+ Matt
22:52:14 <jamesn> ack Matt
22:52:14 <Zakim> Matt, you wanted to react to Matt_King
22:52:43 <jamesn> #1805
22:52:44 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805 : Draft: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec
22:52:54 <jcraig> q+ to reaffirm I love the proposal and am not opposed. I just want to make sure we make the privacy aspects as solid as possible
22:54:01 <bkardell_> Matt_King: I guess I am a little bit leary -- I mean I love this, btw - but I am a little bit leary by its scope... I do think we need to look at some of the scope... putting this on any nameable state might create lots of issues related to keyboard accessibility
22:54:36 <jcraig> q+ to explore the submenu proposal (maybe from Alice?)... actions show up as a triggerable menu item
22:55:12 <sarah_h> q+
22:55:29 <bkardell_> Matt_King: aria key shortcuts doesn't have full support - at least on the first pass of this, I don't think it tells you about what the actions are... If your screen reader lets you see it, good... If you can see it, good - but if you are a keyboard user and can't see it - that is a problem... Requiring that you can get to it seems important
22:55:31 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
22:55:55 <bkardell_> BGaraventa: Say you have an element that has aria actions on it - how is that discoverable by the user
22:56:30 <bkardell_> sarah_h: It is attached to the element with the primary actions, so this would require updates to AT to let you know that there are secondary actions associated with it
22:57:23 <bkardell_> Matt_King: if it is on any nameable element - a slider, a spinner, lot of things are nameable - I'm having a difficult time thinking about a slider on iOS that has 3 associated actions.... well, no... actually, maybe that would work ok
22:58:47 <jcraig> ack me
22:58:47 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to reaffirm I love the proposal and am not opposed. I just want to make sure we make the privacy aspects as solid as possible and to explore the submenu proposal
22:58:48 <jamesn> ack jcraig
22:58:50 <bkardell_> Matt_King: after thinking outloud for a second - maybe for voiceover that isn't a problem. I am struggling still a little bit with how we could come up with common keyboard conventions. It's good from an aria perspective that we aren't going to put all of the keyboard requirements in the spec, but I don't think we can put it into the spec without some careful thought about practices and how this would apply to any kind of element that allows
22:58:50 <Zakim> ... (maybe from Alice?)... actions show up as a triggerable menu item
22:58:50 <bkardell_> this
22:59:33 <bkardell_> jcraig: At least in most of the apple AT, I dont think we have to really change anything at all. When webkit receives the action it can simulate the thing underneath
22:59:56 <bkardell_> jcraig: I also want to confirm that I love the propsal, I know I'm sounding a little harsh - I do have the privacy concerns
23:00:32 <cyns_> q+
23:00:41 <bkardell_> jcraig: I think there was a proposal, maybe from alice that this would maybe be useful as a mainstream attribute.. that would allow us to avoid that, perhaps because it would be indistinguishable
23:01:25 <jamesn> ack sarah_h
23:01:30 <bkardell_> Matt_King: a huge advantage to that is that UAs could potentially solve that keyboard interaction.. not fully, because as sarah_h pointed out, sighted users expect that if they can see the button, users expect they can get to it - but as part of a context menu mabe they don't
23:02:30 <bkardell_> sarah_h: it's come up in openui too - having something like context menu support would be ideal in my view. is it not viable to have aria affect the context menu
23:02:40 <jamesn> q?
23:02:51 <bkardell_> everyone seems to agree yeah, that's not going to happen
23:03:42 <bkardell_> but that it could be something else
23:03:42 <jamesn> ack cyns_
23:04:22 <chlane> q+
23:04:49 <bkardell_> sarah_h: you mentioned that you wanted to say it would be good it is was directly keyboard accessible -- I was thinking of tabs or anything with file tabs - users don't want to tab through all of the close button.. that's a well known case where a common key shortcut is useful
23:05:23 <cyns_> cyns: It doesn't have to be a grey context menu. It could be a different UI that is defined by the browser. As long as it's an html element and activating the UI synthesizes a click
23:05:39 <bkardell_> Matt_King: I can see why browsers did what they did but I find it less than ideal sometimes
23:05:57 <cyns_> Q+
23:06:11 <bkardell_> Matt_King: So what you are saying is that there are cases where there are useful and common things to do where you don't want it to be focusable
23:06:25 <jcraig> qq+ bkardell_
23:06:29 <jcraig> ack bkardell_
23:06:30 <Zakim> bkardell_, you wanted to react to cyns_
23:06:53 <jamesn> bkardell_: are these more other keys? don't want the secondary actions to all be focusable?
23:06:58 <chlane> q-
23:07:07 <bkardell_> bkardell_: (asks a silly question)
23:07:13 <jamesn> ack cyns_
23:07:52 <jcraig> q+ to mention arrow active descendent style kb access
23:08:01 <bkardell_> cyns_: this is very similar to the question yesterday about f6 loops... we define how that works in the authoring guide, but it does seem like html needs more kb access
23:08:12 <jamesn> q+ to say that someone should do something about that
23:08:23 <bkardell_> cyns_: Not as an assitive tech thing, as just a general use thing
23:08:25 <jamesn> ack jcraig
23:08:25 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention arrow active descendent style kb access
23:08:25 <jcraig> ack me
23:10:09 <bkardell_> jcraig: (sorry I missed it scribing)
23:10:51 <Matt_King> q+
23:10:58 <jamesn> ack me
23:10:58 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that someone should do something about that
23:11:03 <bkardell_> cyns_: Different layers of keyboard integration.. while some of the humans in this room might be involved in sorting that out - it is not aria's job
23:11:19 <sarah_h> q+
23:11:45 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
23:11:45 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
23:12:03 <bkardell_> jcraig: every single time we have allowed web ui to show somethin gin the native ui, bad actors use it
23:12:15 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
23:12:51 <jcraig> q+
23:13:57 <jamesn> ack sarah_h
23:14:02 <bkardell_> Matt_King: I'm still a little bit uncomfortable - I get the use cases, but there is something that makes me uncomfortable about the complexity... What you are describing cyns_ makes me maybe even more uncomfortable... It does feel to me like we need to think very carefully about the keyboard patterns in a wide variety of use cases and document what you should do and how it should work... I think the main question now is do we do this in aria
23:14:02 <bkardell_> or out of aria
23:15:04 <bkardell_> sarah_h: I do think that doing it in aria is kind of prereq to moving it to HTML or OpenUI... we need to update the AT, accname - some general things that make it possible to do those things... people who are building things in openui lack these fundamentals
23:15:15 <bkardell_> Matt_King: we should probably map or document that as a roadmap
23:15:51 <bkardell_> cyns_: I do worry that you will get blocked in the same ways doing it in aria
23:15:57 <bkardell_> cyns_: first*
23:16:05 <bkardell_> jamesn: can we do it in openui?
23:16:14 <bkardell_> (crosstalk, missed it)
23:17:08 <spectranaut_> TOPIC: ARIA process
23:17:11 <sarah_h> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14dOVzG-nB1P-uLBET3BYC2v_LvfPpUPWvRfqGLUnBzg/edit
23:19:38 <jamesn> zakim, open the queue
23:19:38 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is open
23:22:28 <jcraig> q+
23:22:28 <cyns_> q+
23:22:36 <jamesn> ack jcraig
23:23:45 <jamesn> qq+
23:24:04 <sarah_h> q+
23:24:48 <cyns_> q?
23:25:59 <CurtBellew> Have to run.  Bye, all
23:27:09 <chlane> Also have to leave thanks everyone
23:29:06 <jcraig> thank you both for joining!
23:30:01 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
23:30:05 <jcraig> q?
23:30:12 <sarah_h> ack me
23:31:16 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/workflow
23:32:37 <sarah_h> q+
23:32:40 <MichaelC> q+
23:35:20 <Adam_Page> Have been listening quietly all day and am about to lose my internet for the remainder.  Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and the very exciting discussions.  Looking forward to getting more involved!  Safe travels home for everyone.
23:42:18 <MichaelC> q-
23:43:11 <cyns_> q?
23:43:21 <spectranaut_> q+ matt
23:43:39 <jamesn> ack jamesn
23:43:39 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to react to jcraig
23:43:57 <jamesn> ack cyns_
23:44:18 <spectranaut_> q+
23:44:43 <jamesn> ack sarah_h
23:47:38 <jamesn> ack matt
23:48:39 <cyns_> q+
23:49:50 <jamesn> qq+
23:50:13 <jamesn> ack me
23:50:13 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to react to matt
23:51:14 <jamesn> ack spectranaut_
23:51:23 <MichaelC> q+ to +1 big-ass PR with checklist to merge
23:52:17 <MichaelC> q-
23:52:40 <jamesn> ack cyns_
23:54:38 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria
23:55:26 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
23:55:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/16-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
23:55:32 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria
23:56:21 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
23:56:21 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been CharlesL, jamesn, gpellegrino, Adam_Page, CurtBellew, AvneeshSingh, GeorgeK, chlane, spectranaut_, Jem, Judy, NeilS, Matt_King,
23:56:21 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
23:56:23 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
23:56:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
23:56:24 <Zakim> ... bgaraventa, matatk, cyns, janina, jasonjgw, JohnRochford, Lionel_Wolberger, DavidFazio, Fazio, cabanier, yonet, Leonard, bkardell_, ada, atsushi, Tatsuya_Igarashi,
23:56:24 <Zakim> ... Piotr_Bialecki, marcosc, MichaelC