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16:18:48 <lgombos> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
16:19:36 <cabanier> present+
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16:20:51 <bajones> scribenick: bajones
16:21:04 <ada> https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/immersive-web/participants
16:21:29 <yonet> agendaL https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/main/TPAC-2022#day-1--september-15th-2022
16:21:31 <bajones> We're all getting a bit of a late start this morning :)
16:22:00 <bajones> Introductions
16:25:19 <cabanier> https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/265
16:25:44 <yonet> scribe:bajones
16:25:58 <bajones> cabanier: This seems to have been scheduled earlier but couldn't find discussion or resolution
16:26:26 <bajones> ... If you are playing a stereo video and then show the UI would like to make the video mono
16:26:33 <bajones> ... Currently no way to do that.
16:27:27 <yonet> q?
16:27:28 <bajones> ... Would mostly be an attribute on cylinder and quad layers, could also apply to GL layers
16:27:43 <ada> scribenick ada:
16:27:55 <ada> bajones: I remember we talked about this before but it's good to talk about again
16:28:09 <yonet> chair: yonet
16:28:10 <ada> ... in layers stereo or not is set at layer creation time
16:28:22 <ada> ... is it possible to create and swap in a non stereo video
16:29:00 <ada> cabanier: the issue is that the video is top-bottom so you would see that
16:29:14 <ada> bajones: you could then choose to render just half the content
16:29:32 <ada> bajones: if you are going to do it for a media you might as well do it for the others too
16:30:21 <ada> bajones: as a follow up, because meta has been the only one who has implemented layers what would be the implementation cost of this
16:30:42 <ada> cabanier: it's simple to implement
16:30:51 <ada> ... should we come up with a name for the property?
16:31:08 <ada> ... 'force mono'?
16:31:23 <ada> bajones: would it be possible to make the attribute mutable?
16:31:30 <ada> cabanier: not really
16:32:20 <ada> bajones: this would probably only used in transient situations, the app would still continue as normal but the compositor would only do half the work
16:32:34 <ada> cabanier: we would duplicate the left eye view to the right eye
16:33:22 <ada> cabanier: feels like it should just be boolean
16:34:04 <ada> bajones: I wonder if it's worth allowing the developer to specify how it is shown so the developer can pre-emptively optimise by not rendering a particular eye
16:35:12 <ada> ada: an enum would give us more freedom down the line
16:35:19 <ada> cabanier: but they are really annoying to spec
16:36:02 <ada> bajones: i don't really care too mcuh between bool and enum but enum could be useful
16:36:45 <ada> bajones: if it's in the spec we should definitely define which eye is prefered
16:36:58 <ada> ada: is there anywhere else in the spec where one eye is favoured?
16:37:02 <ada> cabanier: no
16:37:25 <bialpio> q+
16:37:55 <yonet> ack bialpio
16:37:55 <ada> bialpio: We could do enum disabled/enabled then later do force left force right
16:39:25 <ada> bajones: (to cabanier) I am worried that doing this for projection layers that for weird displays it wouldn't work
16:40:10 <ada> cabanier: all but projection layers
16:40:53 <ada> ...cylinder, quad, cube, equirect
16:41:20 <ada> cabanier: name?
16:41:42 <ada> bajones: I don't love forceMono
16:42:43 <ada> bajones: although it does seem fitting
16:43:37 <ada> bajones: maybe forceMonoView or forceMonoPresentation to inform that it's not the shape changing
16:44:01 <ada> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1typ1VnQ9uzjKK0S_-lM430i6w99e1DfQCD-NPOY5OLg/edit?usp=sharing
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16:45:26 <cabanier> https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/287
16:49:48 <yonet> scribenick: yonet
16:50:02 <yonet> What is the disadvantage of creating multiple layers
16:50:19 <yonet> It is expensive to create
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16:51:57 <yonet> bajones: why not destroy the low res layer and create a high res one?
16:52:10 <bajones> rik: Customer with a video playback library is streaming in multiple video resolutions
16:52:16 <bajones> ... Wants to select based on which comes in first
16:52:22 <bajones> ... Would like to swap video source mid-stream
16:52:35 <bajones> ... Can't be an attribute on the layer
16:52:37 <bajones> bajones: Why not?
16:52:41 <yonet> ada: you establish layer from the video element, they are not changing the url of the video, right?
16:52:42 <bajones> rik: Because layers are currently agnostic to source, want to preserve
16:52:53 <yonet> rik: changing the url,yes
16:53:42 <yonet> if you change the source of the html video element, you are starting a new stream
16:54:02 <yonet> the purpose is to download the higher resolution of the same video.
16:54:11 <lgombos> q+ would not the network cache help here
16:55:08 <yonet> piotr: is the streaming bandwith is the issue?
16:56:09 <yonet> bajones: starting the low res stream and waiting for the high res to switch. I am reluctant to create two steps where it could be on one.
16:57:13 <ada> q?
16:57:19 <yonet> ...I would say, if there is a concrete reason why this supports the user to do something we can do more efficiently than we should do
16:57:25 <lgombos> q+
16:57:34 <ada> ack lgombos
16:58:54 <yonet> lgombos: because you change the source the new download starts, does it really start a new download, do you know
16:59:37 <yonet> rik: I don't know but they are getting a black frame
16:59:44 <Manishearth> q+
17:01:16 <yonet> bajones: maybe they are doing something with start and destroy. if the issue is opaque layer and that's the reason they are getting black that might be a useful thing to communicate.
17:01:32 <yonet> ...maybe it is a signal that we dont need but I'm not sure
17:02:23 <yonet> rik: the feedback was
17:03:28 <yonet> bajones: I would like to hear more technical details. It might be something they can change in the userspace
17:03:52 <ada> ack Manishearth
17:04:00 <yonet> ...maybe the source swapping is the efficient way or we might need to give a signal
17:04:26 <yonet> manish:html video elements already support multiple sources.
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17:04:42 <cabanier> q+
17:04:47 <yonet> ...it can also be used for resolution. I don't know how smooth that is
17:05:10 <yonet> ...to me this seems like a problem that needs to be fixed by video.
17:05:25 <yonet> ...it is a problem with video in general
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17:05:30 <Will> q+
17:05:46 <bajones> q+
17:05:48 <yonet> ... we should look into what we have right now
17:07:06 <ada> q?
17:07:14 <ada> ack cabanier
17:07:17 <ada> ack Will
17:07:46 <yonet> marcos: it is sublty different with video conditions but it will switch
17:07:47 <cwilso> present+
17:08:13 <yonet> will: if multiple sources video will use the first one.
17:08:47 <yonet> ...working on HLS that will be available by Q4. HSLs.js is available today
17:09:00 <cwilso> scribe+
17:09:19 <cwilso> will: up to the player to decide how thsi will be implemented
17:09:42 <ada> ack bajones
17:09:47 <cwilso> rik: shakaplayer works with media layers
17:09:50 <Will> q-
17:10:13 <cwilso> ada: I think this resolves this issue
17:10:26 <yonet> agendum: https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/288
17:10:33 <cwilso> ...let's move on the next topic - Break!
17:10:41 <bajones> present+
17:10:48 <cwilso> present-
17:10:59 <cwilso> present+
17:11:25 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
17:11:28 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
17:11:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
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17:30:42 <bialpio> present+
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17:31:08 <marcosc> Present+
17:31:09 <cabanier> present+
17:31:34 <ada> present+
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17:34:33 <JohnRiv> present+
17:34:36 <yonet> present+
17:34:38 <cwilso> zakim, who is here?
17:34:38 <Zakim> Present: Leonard, JoeLamyman, manishearth_, Laszlo_Gombos, cabanier, bajones, cwilso, bialpio, marcosc, ada, JohnRiv, yonet
17:34:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see JohnRiv, marcosc, bialpio, scheib, yonet, bkardell_, cabanier, klausw, RRSAgent, atsushi, kzms2, garykac, hyojin, sharonmary6, rzr, OverTime, NicolaiIvanov,
17:34:40 <Zakim> ... helixhexagon, fernansd, [old]freshgumbubbles, etropea73101, dietrich, Chrysippus, SergeyRubanov, bemfmmhhj, babage, NellWaliczek, \join_subline, Zakim, sangwhan, cwilso, iank_,
17:34:40 <Zakim> ... ada, Manishearth
17:34:42 <atsushi> present+
17:35:12 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
17:35:12 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cwilso
17:35:26 <cwilso> scribe+
17:35:41 <cabanier> https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/288
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17:35:57 <cwilso> rik: this should be short: https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/288
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17:36:16 <ada> q+
17:36:18 <cwilso> ... no frame available is black; can we make it transparent?
17:36:24 <cwilso> bajones: purple!
17:36:38 <cwilso> ...is there a default on gl layers?
17:36:45 <cwilso> rik: I think it's transparent
17:37:02 <cwilso> bajones: surprising media layers don't do that?
17:37:22 <cwilso> rik: originally we didn't have opacity, so maybe that's why?  but that's gone away
17:38:19 <cwilso> ada: so a transparent PNG on a media layer would be black?
17:38:24 <cwilso> rik: no, transparent
17:38:33 <cwilso> ...opacity is a multiplier
17:39:22 <cwilso> bajones: behaviorally seems fine.  are there scenarios where we can collapse transparency?
17:39:54 <cwilso> ....can videos tell you if they're transparent?
17:40:00 <cwilso> rik: i don't think Chrome supports this
17:40:15 <cwilso> bajones: that's an optimization anyway.  I think this is fine.
17:40:17 <cwilso> q?
17:40:22 <ada> ack ada
17:40:54 <cwilso> ada: it makes sense to me to start off as transparent.
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17:41:08 <ada> q?
17:41:12 <igarashi> present+
17:41:20 <cwilso> ada: resolved
17:41:36 <cwilso> ....next item on the agenda is about <model>
17:42:30 <yonet> https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/55
17:42:42 <cwilso> ...but let's wait on that until the scehduled time
17:42:51 <cwilso> s/scehduled time
17:42:57 <cwilso> s/scehduled time/
17:43:04 <cwilso> s/scehduled time/scheduled time/
17:43:16 <cwilso> bajones: let's talk about immersive audio
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17:43:27 <cwilso> ... web audio is like webxr, imperative API
17:43:31 <mfoltzgoogle> Present+ Mark_Foltz
17:43:52 <cwilso> ... WA can spatialize audio through HRTFs (head-related transfer functions)
17:44:12 <cwilso> ... WA is looking at pulling in file formats with spatialized audio
17:44:32 <cwilso> ... also 3DOF "hearables" - audio AR
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17:44:48 <Leonard> present+
17:44:54 <cwilso> ... how do they get the data streams out of those types of devices
17:45:39 <cwilso> ...lkinda like Cardboard, with no visual component
17:45:55 <cwilso> ... all our APIs have video component, which has a privacy aspect to it
17:46:23 <cwilso> ... it would be interesting for this case to have something like a type of session with just the tracking aspect, and no visual aspect to it
17:46:36 <ada> q+ to ask about declarative
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17:46:59 <cwilso> ... having that kind of session would be beneficial for not only this, but other scenarios - I can't remember where atm but I've heard this request before
17:47:00 <cabanier> q+
17:47:02 <ada> ack ada
17:47:02 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to ask about declarative
17:47:37 <cwilso> ada: should be really interesting, if audio was more declarative, if you could place this in the format rather than using imperative APIs.
17:47:40 <cwilso> q+
17:48:00 <jeff> present+
17:48:38 <cwilso> ...omnitone apparently gets this wrong now
17:48:54 <cwilso> ... that would work well for adding audio to immersive AR scenes.
17:48:56 <ada> ack cabanier
17:49:25 <cwilso> rik: after meeting with audio folks, I looked in to this, and what people use - Howler.js seems to be pretty well supported.
17:50:07 <ada> q?
17:50:11 <ada> ack cwilso
17:50:14 <cwilso> ...maybe the device orientation API would be easier?  it also pops a permission prompt, might be easier.
17:51:08 <ada> cwilso: I just wanted to comment a couple of things, device orientation would be good enough for 3dof, audio in some areas is temporarily very strict and in others is very forgiving
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17:51:20 <bajones> q+
17:51:27 <ada> cwilso: three.js has in built panner node support
17:52:03 <ada> cwilso: the only thing that has to happen behind the scenes is the panner node input
17:52:03 <bajones> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1248
17:52:13 <cwilso> bajones: did a little digging, found existing issue
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17:52:49 <cwilso> ...on 6DOF audio-only session.  I thought this was from a specific company, but not sure.
17:53:46 <cwilso> ...with what Rik was saying about device orientation, the only problem is that it doesn't represent multiple devices (e.g. it doesn't track orientation of "device on my head", but just "the device")
17:54:05 <cwilso> ... with devices like Airpods, it might only be a 3DOF pose, but might be 6DOF in the future
17:54:22 <cwilso> ... we talked about those kind of devices in the past
17:54:49 <cwilso> ... I think there's enough of an overlap, and it maps into the idea of our API
17:54:56 <ada> q?
17:55:01 <ada> ack bajones
17:55:02 <cwilso> ack baj
17:56:01 <cwilso> ada: who's interested in the intersection of audio and WebXR, e.g. this audio-only session?
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17:56:30 <cwilso> bajones: seems like two questions: 1) integration of Web Audio and XR , e.g. wiring up a panner node
17:56:51 <cwilso> ...2) do we want types of sessions for no-visual-component sessions
17:56:57 <Leonard> q+
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17:57:11 <cwilso> ... may be paths forward for both of these
17:57:17 <Brandel_> q+
17:57:47 <ada> q+
17:58:07 <ada> ack Leonard
17:58:13 <cwilso> ..."do we want to do things to advance these"
17:58:24 <cabanier> +1 on making audio integration better
17:58:29 <bajones> q+
17:58:30 <cwilso> leonard: do we need audio-only sessions for accessibility reasons?
17:58:36 <cwilso> ack baj
17:59:30 <cwilso> bajones: I don't think it's necessary; but we might want to encourage people to have better audio cues in their experiences.
17:59:38 <cwilso> q+ to note https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/390
18:00:35 <cwilso> ... special mode is probably better for when you're dealing with hardware limitations (e.g. pair of glasses that only has audio)
18:00:47 <cwilso> q+ to note https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/815
18:01:05 <cwilso> ada: would that hardware-limited scenario break things today?
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18:01:43 <cwilso> brandon: yes, probably
18:02:00 <cwilso> ... due to exposing zero views
18:02:04 <cwilso> vq?
18:02:40 <ada> q?
18:03:24 <cwilso> ...it might work, but it would be fragile in how experiences are authored.   for this modality of apps, you really want it to be more like an inline session that is declared as audio-only
18:03:30 <ada> ack Brandel_
18:04:40 <cwilso> brandel: new iOS has better HRTF details (e.g. shape of your ear).  Curious to know if Panner Node supports this.
18:05:09 <cwilso> ...stereopanner just does stereo panning
18:05:11 <ada> scribe+
18:05:53 <ada> cwilso: web audio just has a generic use a hrtf to do this, there is a default hrtf that the useragent could replace with a better one, to do a better experience.
18:06:03 <ada> ... no one has thought about doing that yet
18:06:08 <cwilso> ack cwilso
18:06:08 <Zakim> cwilso, you wanted to note https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/390 and to note https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/815
18:07:05 <ada> ... on the other two issues I would like to call out these issues about non visual sessions, which deny allow of non-visual sessions and an issue for hooking up panner nodes
18:07:10 <ada> zakim, close the queue
18:07:10 <Zakim> ok, ada, the speaker queue is closed
18:07:12 <ada> q?
18:07:18 <cwilso> ack ada
18:07:21 <ada> ack ada
18:07:27 <alexturn> present+
18:07:55 <cwilso> ada: just wanted to mention that the 8th wall wanted trracking-only sessions to have their own visual implementation
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18:08:15 <cwilso> bajones: https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1248
18:08:20 <cwilso> ada: let
18:08:33 <cwilso> ada: let's move on to the <model> element, with a new scribe
18:08:40 <yonet> agendum: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/55
18:08:46 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
18:08:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yonet
18:08:53 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
18:08:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bialpio
18:08:54 <klausw> present+
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18:09:05 <bialpio> scribenick: bialpio
18:10:02 <bialpio> introductions
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18:10:40 <bialpio_> scribenick: bialpio
18:10:45 <alexturn> q+
18:10:51 <bialpio_> scribenick: bialpio_
18:10:53 <ada> zakim, open the queue
18:10:53 <Zakim> ok, ada, the speaker queue is open
18:10:53 <cwilso> zakim, open the queue
18:10:55 <Zakim> ok, cwilso, the speaker queue is open
18:11:02 <alcooper> q+
18:11:02 <cwilso> q+ alexturn
18:11:39 <cwilso> ack alcooper
18:11:55 <cwilso> ack alexturn
18:12:25 <Leonard> @Ada: It's your new job
18:13:20 <bialpio_> Emmett: already fair bit of discussions - interesting idea, but...
18:13:42 <bialpio_> ... I've been arguing that we're not yet ready to standardize, arguments already in the issue
18:14:06 <bialpio_> ... I think we should be talking about what problems we're trying to solve, as standardizing <model> may be A solution, but not THE solution
18:14:12 <marcosc> q+
18:14:32 <bialpio_> ... main point is that right now <model> looks a lot like <model-viewer>
18:14:56 <bialpio_> ... so far the main advantage is that we can skip a permissions prompt that WebXR would show
18:15:07 <ada> q+
18:15:10 <bialpio_> ... but it may not be a reason enough to go with standardizing
18:15:21 <bialpio_> ... especially since the API shape can get massive
18:15:47 <bialpio_> ... so the main question is what the goals are
18:15:48 <ada> ack marcosc
18:16:08 <bialpio_> marcosc: apologies if intentions not clear enough, let's rehash...
18:16:22 <bialpio_> ... goal is to have a simple way to include 3d models in the web pages
18:16:28 <bialpio_> ... commerce case really important
18:17:16 <bialpio_> ... AR case - it'd be cool if we didn't have to download such components twice
18:17:24 <bialpio_> ... accessibility story is more compelling
18:17:31 <alexturn> q+
18:17:33 <bialpio_> ... API surface is going to be a challenge
18:17:37 <Brandel> q+
18:18:11 <bialpio_> Emmett: what is the delta? what does a standardized element give you that you won't get from existing options? what do you gain?
18:18:28 <bialpio_> marcosc: browser renders it for you, so you don't need to download any JS
18:18:37 <bialpio_> ... no dependency for any JS library
18:18:42 <bajones> q+
18:18:45 <bialpio_> ... you can get new format support for free
18:19:01 <Leonard> 1+
18:19:03 <yonet> q+
18:19:13 <bialpio_> Emmett: how do you get a consistent format support across different browsers, & why having a standardized element is better
18:19:32 <bialpio_> ... we right now have consistent rendering across browsers and we can rapidly iterate on the solution
18:19:54 <bialpio_> ... I don't understand how we're going to achieve that when we have different browsers w/ different schedules
18:20:07 <bialpio_> marcosc: <model> tag does not preclude the solutions in JS
18:20:11 <cwilso> q+ to discuss baseline
18:20:31 <bialpio_> ... browsers may be behind but over time they stabilize and catch up
18:20:31 <cwilso> q+ to discuss object
18:20:37 <cabanier> q+
18:20:49 <Leonard> q+
18:20:57 <ada> ack ada
18:20:58 <bialpio_> ... the advantage is that it's built-in into the browser, we have a baseline
18:21:00 <klausw> q+
18:21:39 <bialpio_> ada: re feature gap of model vs model-viewer - that's not a big disadvantage, we can keep adding things to browser impl
18:22:05 <bialpio_> ... if at the start model doesn't work for people, they can still rely on model-viewer
18:22:08 <ada> ack alexturn
18:22:38 <bialpio_> alexturn: it may come down to philosophy of what the web should do
18:23:13 <bialpio_> ... my brain goes to: what can't you get with the current solution
18:23:57 <bialpio_> ... similarly w/ VR and AR browsers
18:24:26 <bialpio_> ... there are things you can do but you are limited to the plane of the browser
18:24:48 <yonet> Josh Carpenter demo: https://joshcarpenter.ca/composable-3d-web/
18:25:10 <bialpio_> ... when you have model tag, we can now do things in headsets
18:26:38 <bialpio_> ... we may reach a point where we use models for UI elements and requesting WebXR for all little things would be an overkill
18:27:06 <bialpio_> Emmett: I don't see how the dots connect between Josh's slides and the browser yet
18:27:27 <bialpio_> ... I'd get more interested in it if I saw how those 2 connect
18:27:44 <bialpio_> ... when I look at Josh's slides, I don't see a browser, it's more like a maps experience
18:27:46 <ada> ack Brandel
18:28:18 <bialpio_> Brandel: I've been playing w/ Apple's technology preview demos with icons
18:28:40 <bialpio_> ... I'd echo alexturn - it's an opportunity for the browser to do w/ the information that is privileged
18:28:55 <bialpio_> ... there are things that aren't safe to expose to the site
18:29:15 <bialpio_> ... so what is it that people want to achieve?
18:29:26 <cwilso> qq+ cgw for a brief chairing reminder
18:30:01 <bialpio_> ... we wouldn't consider using WebXR e.g. in apple.com, permission prompt is the main reason
18:31:07 <bialpio_> ... we can also have dedicated hardware and native libraries that'd be more efficient to use rather than JS
18:31:22 <bialpio_> ... it's valuable to have browser-level support
18:32:23 <bialpio_> ... you can do lighting estimation in immersive WebXR, but it'd be nice to do something similar mediated by the browser, without exposing the camera to the site
18:32:40 <cwilso> vq?
18:32:48 <bialpio_> ... with that you can see reflections on the object
18:33:32 <cwilso> ack cgw
18:33:32 <Zakim> cgw, you wanted to react to Brandel to discuss a brief chairing reminder
18:33:58 <bialpio_> ... <model-viewer> is good example of the use cases, but it won't be able to do the same thing as the browser
18:33:59 <cwilso> ack baj
18:34:36 <bialpio_> bajones: everybody's talking about Josh's slides - 2nd half goes into how this could look like in a browser
18:35:01 <bialpio_> ... we talked through those concepts w/ Josh
18:35:18 <ada> zakim, close the queue
18:35:18 <Zakim> ok, ada, the speaker queue is closed
18:35:35 <bialpio_> ... everything you see here is far-looking, and we approached it through "what could we do through WebXR"
18:35:51 <bialpio_> ... so I don't think it requires the browser to be managing this
18:36:11 <bialpio_> ... but how can we do this without the prompt
18:36:29 <bialpio_> ... seems like we'd like to be able to hand off rendering to the OS components if they exist
18:36:41 <bialpio_> ... but the concern here is consistency
18:37:21 <bialpio_> ... having sat through glTF meetings, and what comes back is that we need things to render consistently everywhere in a matter that is close to real life
18:37:51 <bialpio_> ... what we don't want is having the model be rendered completely differently across browsers
18:38:12 <bialpio_> ... there will always be differences in capabilities so we may need to be able to opt in to different capabilities
18:38:24 <bialpio_> ... but consistency is difficult if rendering mechanism is OS-level
18:38:42 <alexturn> Josh Carpenter's slides: https://joshcarpenter.ca/composable-3d-web/
18:38:42 <bialpio_> ... it stops being a problem if you rely on JS library
18:39:06 <bialpio_> ... so commerce can fall back to JS simply because those use cases could then rely on rendering consistency
18:39:28 <ada> q?
18:39:32 <ada> ack yonet
18:39:54 <bialpio_> yonet: when we previously met, there was a lot of questions and Dean promised demos
18:39:59 <yonet> https://joshcarpenter.ca/video/c3d/model-remix-everything.webm
18:40:04 <bialpio_> ... so we could see what is an MVP
18:40:19 <bialpio_> ... as it may affect discussions
18:40:46 <Brandel> my headphones just died so I am trying to recalibrate
18:40:49 <bialpio_> marcosc: demo is what we released behind a flag
18:41:19 <bialpio_> Brandel: we have demos fit for public consumption I think?
18:41:22 <ada> q?
18:41:31 <Leonard> Not everyone has Safari. Can we see something (screen share)?
18:41:32 <bialpio_> ... straightforwad demonstrations of what we think should be possible
18:41:47 <ada> ack cwilso
18:41:47 <Zakim> cwilso, you wanted to discuss baseline and to discuss object
18:41:49 <bialpio_> ... demos tomorrow
18:42:08 <bialpio_> cwilso: taking off my chair hat
18:42:11 <plh> plh has joined #immersive-web
18:42:15 <plh> present+
18:42:32 <bialpio_> ... my concern is that <model> is the baseline, built into browser, but that may not be true
18:42:52 <bialpio_> ... as we cannot guarantee it will happen everywhere in a consistent manner
18:43:07 <bialpio_> ... <img> has baseline that all browsers implement
18:43:13 <bialpio_> ... and there are extensions
18:43:30 <bialpio_> ... I'm worried that if we don't have an interoperable baseline, we will fail
18:43:43 <bialpio_> ... point of standards is to be interoperable
18:44:05 <bialpio_> ... so we should not call it a web standard
18:44:21 <bialpio_> marcosc: this is an incubation
18:44:42 <bialpio_> cwilso: so we need to be careful how we communicate
18:44:56 <bialpio_> marcosc: agree, that's why this is an incubation, that's why we're reaching out now
18:45:06 <ada> q?
18:45:09 <bialpio_> ... we need to prove that we can render consistently
18:45:33 <ada> ack cabanier
18:45:37 <bialpio_> Emmett: we've gone through this as well in model-viewer since for AR on iOS we have to use QuickLook
18:46:09 <bialpio_> cabanier: there are examples in Josh's slides that were explicitly a browser
18:46:35 <bialpio_> ... in quest browser the power is that it can be rendered in 3d
18:47:05 <bialpio_> ... we could do reflections and we cannot do those w/o permission prompts today
18:47:37 <bialpio_> ... as for consistency, we may not even be here right now as different browsers can render things inconsistently even now
18:48:06 <bialpio_> Bajones: interesting where the line of sand is
18:48:29 <bialpio_> ... but the problem is that if one browser renders glass correctly and the other renders it as gray blob
18:48:42 <bialpio_> ... similarly, if one browser comes up w/ hair model and the other does not
18:49:06 <bialpio_> ... so there are distinctions between incorrectly representing colors and inconsistent rendering of models
18:49:29 <bialpio_> Emmett: one case in point is now with how roughness gets displayed
18:49:38 <bialpio_> ... it's less about the colors
18:49:54 <bialpio_> ... glTF is what aims to solve this
18:50:09 <ada> q?
18:50:17 <bialpio_> ... path tracers are the baselines and rasterizers should aim to be close to those
18:51:01 <bialpio_> bajones: lighting being used as an input for rendering is a nice idea, but all the current devices that I've used use low res approximation of env lighting
18:51:23 <bialpio_> ... so for shiny models you may run into inconsistencies as well
18:51:35 <ada> ack Leonard
18:51:37 <ada> q?
18:51:39 <bialpio_> ... that indicates that we cannot hand off things to the renderer and be done
18:52:21 <bialpio_> Leonard: the way this is done is presented as new tag but now we still need to figure out a lot of stuff
18:52:30 <marcosc> q+
18:52:39 <bialpio_> ... the most important part in all of this is correctly rendering the 3d model, including animations
18:52:59 <bialpio_> ... commerce retailers are interested in non-static things being shown
18:53:26 <bialpio_> ... it's concerning to me that it's not addressing questions around rendering, camera, lighting...
18:53:35 <ada> q?
18:53:38 <ada> ack klausw
18:54:01 <bialpio_> klausw: one thing that is confusing is that what do we want to include initially
18:54:07 <bialpio_> ... what do we add things later
18:54:18 <bialpio_> s/what/how
18:54:31 <bialpio_> ... how will the site author know what is available
18:54:45 <bialpio_> ... so if animation gets added later, how do we surface it to the site authors
18:55:05 <bialpio_> ... so it'd be good to have a process for adding features
18:55:11 <ada> q?
18:55:14 <bialpio_> ... since there may be a long tail of capabilities
18:55:34 <bialpio_> ... that aren't implemented across the board
18:57:03 <bialpio_> yonet: lgombos and marcosc are points of contact for the repo
18:57:52 <bialpio_> marcosc: please file issues in the repo in case we didn't cover something
18:58:35 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
18:58:50 <cabanier> https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/18
18:59:05 <cabanier> bajones: this ties into about the earlier discussion about consistency
18:59:25 <cabanier> ... which format model tag chooses to support
18:59:34 <cabanier> ... so we should discuss this at lenght
18:59:41 <marcosc> q+
18:59:57 <cabanier> ... earlier we talked about to match the video element by having multiple src tags
19:00:02 <cwilso> zakim, open the queue
19:00:02 <Zakim> ok, cwilso, the speaker queue is open
19:00:11 <cabanier> ... I think that model was widely seen as a mistake
19:00:12 <marcosc> q+
19:00:39 <cabanier> ... browsers like firefox ended up broken because it didn't decode all formats
19:01:05 <cwilso> q+ to read back Domenic's comment
19:01:10 <cabanier> ... I'm worried that there's a fair amount of people that choose their platform of choice or leave out the ones of other browsers
19:01:22 <cabanier> ... I think this is the most important choice
19:01:33 <cabanier> ... I know that Apple prefers USDZ
19:01:41 <cabanier> ... Google prefers GLTF
19:01:51 <cabanier> ... we like the fact that it is well standardized
19:02:03 <cabanier> ... it's proven to be easy to render in javascript and native
19:02:19 <cabanier> ... and there's concern that USDZ isn't standardized at the same level
19:02:37 <cabanier> ... the standard is USDZ = USD in a zip
19:02:53 <ada> q?
19:02:56 <cabanier> ... USD is a black box so I don't think this is an appropriate format
19:02:57 <ada> ack marcosc
19:03:08 <cabanier> marcosc: thanks Brandon
19:03:30 <cabanier> ... from webkit/Apple side, we like the other vendors to have strong opinions
19:03:30 <lgombos> q+
19:03:47 <cabanier> ... so if you're another vendor, please voice your preference
19:03:59 <cabanier> ... as for the video, we support various formats
19:04:12 <cabanier> ... but if we can agree on a format, that is great
19:04:25 <cabanier> ... but it shouldn't preclude different experimentations
19:04:36 <cabanier> ... maybe there's a future format which is fantastic
19:04:55 <cabanier> ... the advantage of the src option, is to allow media queries
19:05:09 <cabanier> ... it's well suited for various environments
19:05:26 <cabanier> ... the picture and video element are used in the same way
19:05:41 <cabanier> ... this is why we went with that model despite its pains
19:06:04 <cabanier> ... Apple thinks USDZ is a good format but if everyone disagrees, we might need to revisit
19:06:09 <ada> q?
19:06:12 <ada> ack cwilso
19:06:12 <Zakim> cwilso, you wanted to read back Domenic's comment
19:06:19 <cabanier> cwilso: I have 2 things
19:06:39 <cabanier> ... dominic mentions the video and requiring royalty free formates
19:06:57 <cabanier> ... he suggests that there's a minimum bar for the format that is picked
19:07:05 <alexturn> present-
19:07:13 <alexturn> present+
19:07:25 <cabanier> ... I don't know if we can even do that. Having an open specification is of the utmost importance
19:07:26 <bajones> q+
19:07:34 <cabanier> marcosc: I agree
19:08:05 <Leonard> q+
19:08:21 <ada> q?
19:08:25 <ada> ack lgombos
19:08:37 <cabanier> lgombos: marcos asked for feedback, Samsung prefers GLTF
19:08:50 <cabanier> ... for interop, we already discussed it quite a bit
19:09:12 <cabanier> ... most of it is in the content itself which is done in another group
19:09:40 <ada> q?
19:09:42 <ada> ack bajones
19:09:45 <cabanier> ... so if we decide what the baseline and format is, compatibility and standardization is most important
19:09:55 <yonet> ack bajones
19:09:59 <cabanier> bajones: Marcos brought up media queries
19:10:17 <cabanier> ... it is not that multiple sources isn't the way to go
19:10:58 <cabanier> ... that use case of media queries should be supported
19:11:08 <cabanier> ... but that shouldn't extend to different formats
19:11:11 <ada> q/
19:11:12 <ada> q?
19:12:15 <cabanier> emmet: (???) you might have the data at Apple
19:12:27 <cabanier> ... but we have a convertor from gltf to USDZ
19:12:34 <cabanier> ... it's very difficult
19:12:49 <cabanier> ... not that many people create USDA file
19:13:06 <ada> ack Leonard
19:13:17 <cabanier> ... so if you have metric of how many people use that format, you will know how many people use modelviewer
19:13:41 <cabanier> Leonard: gltf supports many things
19:13:48 <cabanier> ... lately gtx was added
19:13:50 <bajones> Q+
19:13:54 <ada> ack bajones
19:14:04 <cabanier> bajones: this is more about consistency
19:14:22 <cabanier> ... USDZ and GLTF both have extension methods
19:14:42 <cabanier> ... and not all extensions need to be supported by a renderer
19:14:50 <cabanier> ... and might not even make sense
19:15:18 <cabanier> ... we need to make a consideration so users can know what features are supported by the browsers
19:15:24 <cabanier> ... we need to offer user control
19:15:50 <ada> q?
19:15:56 <marcosc> q+
19:16:04 <cabanier> ... maybe you have a model that has all the latest features, but maybe one UA doesn't support it in which case the author should be able to disable it
19:16:21 <cabanier> emmet: I'm unsure if anyone talked to NVidia
19:16:35 <cabanier> ... they seem very interested in web and 3D format
19:17:05 <cabanier> ... they are using USD as the scene formatting stuff and gltf for the format (?)
19:17:07 <ada> ack marcosc
19:17:13 <cabanier> marcosc: I did read that as well
19:17:31 <marcosc> https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/universal-scene-description-as-the-language-of-the-metaverse/
19:17:47 <cabanier> ... it's a bit buzz-worthy but I agree that it's pretty cool what they are doing
19:18:17 <cabanier> ... to leonard's point about rendering consistency, we've done a good job and is getting better
19:18:26 <cabanier> ... we will figure this out as we go along
19:18:42 <cabanier> ... there are better use cases, and the format provide rendering hints.
19:18:48 <ada> q?
19:19:19 <bajones> https://www.khronos.org/assets/uploads/developers/presentations/Metaverse_and_the_Future_of_glTF_-_All_Slides.pdf
19:19:31 <cabanier> bajones: this is the nvidia push
19:19:48 <cabanier> ... worth mentioning that Khronos is doing a similar effort
19:20:03 <cabanier> ... it's a collection of scenes and just as buzz-worthy
19:21:53 <igarashi_> igarashi_ has joined #immersive-web
19:22:07 <klausw> present-
19:45:07 <jacobcrypusa> jacobcrypusa has joined #immersive-web
20:11:08 <yonet> yonet has joined #immersive-web
20:15:42 <lgombos> lgombos has joined #immersive-web
20:21:45 <Leonard> scribe Leonard
20:21:56 <Leonard> q?
20:22:00 <bajones> bajones has joined #Immersive-Web
20:22:19 <yonet> agendum: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/56
20:22:35 <bialpio> bialpio has joined #immersive-web
20:22:41 <bialpio> present+
20:23:11 <Leonard> Ada: Thinks CORS should be required.
20:23:25 <ada> zakim, open the queue
20:23:26 <Zakim> ok, ada, the speaker queue is open
20:23:34 <Leonard> Rik?: <model> should just be like <img>
20:23:37 <ada> q+
20:24:04 <bialpio> q+
20:24:15 <klausw> present+
20:24:16 <ada> ack ada
20:24:18 <Leonard> Ada: If limit pollyfills to only JS, then it imposes a circular limit
20:24:37 <ada> ack bialpio
20:24:52 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #immersive-web
20:24:52 <yonet> present+
20:24:53 <bkardell_> present+
20:24:58 <marcosc> present+
20:25:02 <ada> q+
20:25:13 <Leonard> Piotr: Easier to relax requirement than add it later. Propose to initially polyfill with requirement, then reduce it later
20:25:28 <marcosc> q+
20:25:39 <Leonard> Ada: Could this be a non-normative requirement?
20:25:48 <Leonard> Note: It === CORS
20:26:03 <Leonard> ???: Hard to do non-normative security requirements
20:26:06 <ada> q-
20:26:08 <ada> ack marcosc
20:26:54 <cabanier> q+
20:26:54 <Leonard> Marcos: Agrees with Piotr
20:27:01 <Leonard> Ada: Does it work on video?
20:27:14 <klausw> q+
20:27:27 <ada> ack cabanier
20:27:30 <Leonard> Marcos: No. Video is a single source. Models are not
20:27:47 <Leonard> Rik: Models are not self-contained?
20:28:15 <Leonard> Brandon: USDZ similar to GLB, pack everything into a single file, but not required
20:28:35 <Leonard> q+
20:29:08 <bialpio> q+
20:31:01 <Leonard> Marcos: Trying to reduce attack surface by requiring confirmation that accessing a separate server is OK
20:31:40 <ada> ack klausw
20:31:52 <ada> qq+ klausw
20:32:16 <ada> ack klausw
20:32:16 <Zakim> klausw, you wanted to react to klausw
20:32:24 <Leonard> Marcos: Originating content establishes relationships with other servers
20:32:31 <bialpio> q-
20:33:08 <cabanier> q+
20:33:09 <Leonard> Klaus: Control access to resources to save costs, etc.
20:33:43 <ada> q+ to talk about the patchwork nature of the web
20:33:45 <marcosc> q+
20:33:48 <ada> ack Leonard
20:33:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:34:21 <atsushi> s/scribe Leonard/scribe: Leonard/
20:34:32 <atsushi> s/agendum: http/topic: http/
20:34:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:34:58 <ada> q?
20:35:02 <ada> ack cabanier
20:35:17 <atsushi> s/scribenick ada:/scribenick: ada/
20:35:32 <atsushi> s|https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/265|topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/265|
20:35:53 <atsushi> s|https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/287|topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/287|
20:35:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:36:12 <atsushi> s/agendum: http/topic: http/
20:36:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:36:24 <Leonard> Rik: Doesn't like the idea of preventing access
20:36:41 <Leonard> ... [really more than that, but it is kind-of subtle]
20:37:10 <atsushi> s/agendum: http/topic: http/
20:37:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:37:15 <cwilso> present+
20:37:22 <Leonard> Marcos: Provides explaination of what happens.
20:38:03 <Leonard> <loosing conversations and people speaking...][
20:38:08 <ada> q?
20:38:18 <ada> ack ada
20:38:18 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to talk about the patchwork nature of the web
20:38:43 <Leonard> Some discussion of limiting glTF to not allow secondary connections. [that would break glTF -- LD]
20:39:28 <Leonard> Ada: Wants feedback from Architecture group before reaching decision.
20:39:37 <Leonard> Marcos: Agrees
20:40:00 <cabanier> q+
20:40:01 <ada> q?
20:40:06 <marcosc> q-
20:40:08 <ada> ack marcosc
20:40:22 <Leonard> Rik: Want to make sure it is done for good reasons.
20:40:39 <Leonard> Marcos: Already gave example
20:41:30 <Leonard> q+
20:42:56 <ada> q?
20:43:00 <ada> ack cabanier
20:43:14 <atsushi> meeting: Immersive Web WG / TPAC 2022 Day1
20:43:38 <atsushi> agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/main/TPAC-2022/readme.md
20:44:03 <cabanier> Leonard: Rik mentioned disallowing subrequest
20:44:09 <atsushi> s/agendaL http/agenda: htp/
20:44:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:44:19 <cabanier> ... that would give you geometry and nothing else
20:44:33 <cabanier> ... and this would prohibit certain domains
20:44:36 <cabanier> q+
20:44:37 <Brandel> Leonard: It's possible to set the zoom view to 'speaker' rather than 'gallery', and then pin the 'Granville' participant to get the folks in the room fullscreen
20:45:01 <cabanier> ada: are you saying things can be pulled from anywhere
20:45:01 <atsushi> s|https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/55|topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/55|
20:45:04 <ada> ack Leonard
20:45:07 <ada> ack cabanier
20:45:14 <atsushi> s|https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1248|topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1248|
20:45:27 <bialpio> q+
20:45:44 <ada> ack bialpio
20:45:49 <atsushi> s|https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/18|topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/18|
20:45:53 <Leonard> Rik: Still likes a single-file complete model
20:45:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:46:48 <klausw> q+
20:46:51 <Leonard> Piotr: Concened about excessive bandwidth usage
20:47:13 <ada> ack klausw
20:47:22 <Leonard> Ada: That issue has been around since the beginning of the web
20:47:40 <Leonard> Klaus: HTTP Referrer header already can do that
20:47:52 <atsushi> s|https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/55|topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/55|
20:48:03 <atsushi> s|https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1248|topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1248|
20:48:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:48:31 <ada> q?
20:49:10 <atsushi> s|topic: topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1248|https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1248
20:49:13 <Leonard> Conclusion: Ada will take issue to TAG. Expects the response to "Use CORS"
20:50:02 <atsushi> s|topic: topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/55|https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/55
20:50:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:50:41 <yonet> topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/13
20:51:49 <Leonard> Unknown speaker: <model> looks a lot like a media element.
20:52:08 <ada> Leonard: this is marcosc
20:52:11 <Leonard> ... It's just (a lot) more than 1-dimension (e.g., audio)
20:52:20 <bajones> q+
20:52:54 <Leonard> ... Do all media elements need "controls"
20:53:03 <Leonard> ... This is from Marcos
20:53:14 <Leonard> q+
20:53:22 <ada> ack bajones
20:53:43 <Will> Will has joined #immersive-web
20:53:47 <Will> q+
20:54:38 <Leonard> Brandon: Noted that media elements have many controls, spec language, and related APIs in common.
20:54:58 <cabanier> q+
20:54:59 <Leonard> ... glTF have multiple animations. How would that worlk?
20:55:05 <Leonard> Marcos: Doesn't know
20:55:23 <cabanier> q_
20:55:27 <ada> q?
20:56:04 <ada> ack Leonard
20:56:32 <cabanier> q-
20:56:36 <Brandel> q+
20:58:08 <Leonard> [Note] Marcos needs to leaves WG. Discussion might be
20:58:09 <ada> ack Will
20:59:30 <Leonard> ????: Media elements supports multiple tracks, but not necessarily all playable at the same time
20:59:55 <Leonard> Ada: Points out that the text track (caption) can play with audio & video
21:00:35 <ada> q?
21:00:43 <ada> ack Brandel
21:01:26 <Leonard> Brandel: Looking at must-haves and not-haves.
21:02:20 <Leonard> ... Single animation track seems to be important
21:02:20 <ada> q?
21:04:33 <ada> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1typ1VnQ9uzjKK0S_-lM430i6w99e1DfQCD-NPOY5OLg/edit?usp=sharing
21:05:26 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
21:05:26 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Leonard
21:05:29 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
21:05:29 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose plh
21:05:42 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
21:05:51 <cabanier> ada: image tracking unconference
21:05:58 <cabanier> ... I'm a fan of image tracking
21:06:19 <cabanier> .. the last time we talked about it, the consensus is that it's interesting
21:06:33 <cabanier> ... but different hardware platforms have different solutions
21:06:37 <cabanier> ... and they don't overlap
21:06:53 <cabanier> ... arcore does images well but not QR codes
21:07:14 <cabanier> ... likewise hololens is good at tracking QR code but can't track plain images
21:07:45 <cabanier> ... so the consensus was, if we can't ship an API across devices, should we do it all?
21:08:09 <cabanier> ... the more I was thinking, in the case of HW, the use cases are different
21:08:26 <cabanier> ... the hololens is tailored towards industry so QR codes make sense
21:08:35 <cabanier> ... while arcore is more consumer focused
21:08:54 <cabanier> ... I think they tend to support different audiences
21:09:06 <bajones> q+
21:09:11 <cabanier> ... so it's probably not a big deal that they're different
21:09:47 <cabanier> ... as a developer advocate, dom content and image tracking were the most important
21:10:08 <cabanier> ... one of the things that's hard to do is shared anchors
21:10:33 <cabanier> ... and the industry doesn't have a shared API
21:11:11 <cabanier> ... but with qr code and image tracking, 2 users could localize to the same space
21:11:18 <ada> q?
21:11:23 <ada> ack bajones
21:11:55 <cabanier> bajones: one of the things that makes this difficult is that arkit requires an image processing step upfront
21:12:02 <cabanier> ... I can't find any runtime API
21:12:30 <cabanier> ... arcore (??? something less complicated)
21:12:55 <klausw> q+
21:13:12 <cabanier> ... I am concerned that image tracking requires an offline process
21:13:45 <cabanier> ... if we want to have image tracking, we might have to use our own algorithm
21:14:12 <cabanier> ... it's a concern that we can deliver images that can be consumed
21:14:36 <cabanier> ... arkit wants non-repeating nicely defined images
21:14:52 <cabanier> ada: do we want a pile of floats shared across the platform?
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21:15:02 <cabanier> bajones: it would be a path
21:15:03 <ada> q?
21:15:07 <ada> ack klausw
21:15:08 <cabanier> klausw:
21:15:25 <cabanier> klausw: so yes, arcore lets you upload images at runtime
21:15:35 <cabanier> ... it doesn't work with animations
21:15:58 <cabanier> ... there's a subset of images that could work
21:16:11 <cabanier> ... I wasn't aware of the details of arkit
21:16:19 <ada> to clarify you couldn't animate every magic the gathering card you are limited to 5ish images
21:16:31 <cabanier> ... but ada made a good point that the use case doesn't overlap
21:16:44 <ada> q+
21:16:48 <cabanier> ... another thing that came up is that we're providing raw camera access
21:16:51 <bialpio> q+
21:16:53 <ada> ack q+
21:16:57 <ada> ack ada
21:17:01 <cabanier> ... so that could be an avenue
21:17:21 <cabanier> ... it's a weird API if it has unpredictable results
21:17:40 <cabanier> ada: raw camera access might give us a solution here
21:17:52 <cabanier> ... for instance three.js might just build it in
21:18:06 <klausw> q+
21:18:13 <cabanier> ... users shouldn't have to give up the farm for a basic feature
21:18:16 <ada> ack bialpio
21:18:37 <cabanier> bialpio: the common use case from Nick was to detect images on curved surfaces
21:18:47 <cabanier> ... this is not something we want to standardize
21:18:55 <cabanier> ... so raw camera access might be needed
21:19:17 <cabanier> ... the point is that it would be awesome to have image tracking across platforms
21:19:31 <cabanier> ... even with that being available, that might not be enough
21:19:44 <cabanier> ... should be extend the API to account for these use case
21:20:04 <cabanier> ... so the simple api does something basic but more advanced cases use raw camera access
21:20:08 <ada> q?
21:20:10 <ada> ack klausw
21:20:41 <cabanier> klausw: if someone goes far enough to set up physical object
21:20:51 <ada> q+
21:21:06 <cabanier> ... raw camera access isn't a big barrier
21:21:08 <ada> ack ada
21:21:23 <cabanier> ada: I understand where Nick's example comes from
21:21:49 <cabanier> ... but we don't want webxr to always ask for camera access so people just always give it out
21:22:16 <cabanier> ... it's good that people stay cautious
21:22:20 <ada> q?
21:22:24 <klausw> q+
21:22:29 <ada> ack klausw
21:22:43 <cabanier> klausw: we do have an implementation in chrome of the draft spec
21:22:53 <cabanier> ... and it's ready to go if this is what people want
21:23:20 <cabanier> ... are people ok with making this a standard?
21:23:28 <cabanier> ... or should it be completely different
21:23:46 <cabanier> ada: I'd love to go forward with it
21:24:13 <cabanier> ... as bajones said, people may encounter problems based on the limitations of ARKit
21:24:16 <ada> q?
21:24:40 <cabanier> yonet: do we need another contact for marker tracking
21:24:59 <cabanier> ada: does anyone else want to be a contact?
21:25:08 <cabanier> (Rik Cabanier) volunteers
21:29:56 <yonet> WebRTC meeting zoom information is here: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/bc28a876-4512-488e-95ba-99c91d8c4d49
21:54:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
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