IRC log of editing on 2022-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:59:13 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-editing-irc
17:59:17 [Zakim]
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17:59:43 [Travis]
Zakim, this is Web Editing WG Meeting (TPAC Edition) 2022-09-15
17:59:43 [Zakim]
got it, Travis
17:59:55 [xiaoqian]
RRSAgent, make log public
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18:00:09 [xiaoqian]
present+
18:00:13 [Travis]
present+
18:00:25 [whsieh]
present+
18:00:40 [dandclark]
present+
18:01:13 [smaug]
present+
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present+
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18:04:51 [garykac]
present+
18:04:51 [zcorpan]
present+
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18:05:08 [jgraham]
present+
18:05:12 [howard-e]
present+
18:05:15 [edgar]
present+
18:05:17 [garykac]
johannes: first, some background
18:05:21 [snianu]
present+
18:05:35 [garykac]
somehow give JS devs the ability to create rich text editors that work cross browser
18:05:52 [jgraham]
ScribeNick: garykac
18:05:57 [garykac]
and come up with new specs that add new features
18:06:12 [jgraham]
RRSAgent: make minutes
18:06:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-editing-minutes.html jgraham
18:06:31 [garykac]
2nd goal related to standardizing existing features
18:06:39 [jgraham]
RRSAgent: make logs public
18:07:22 [xiaoqian]
meeting: Web Editing WG Meeting (TPAC Edition) 2022-09-15
18:07:31 [xiaoqian]
chair: Travis, johanneswilm
18:07:43 [garykac]
...we are now marking items that we want to discuss...
18:07:59 [snianu]
https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/165
18:08:16 [akeerthi]
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18:08:29 [garykac]
travis: we meet every month on the 2nd thursday
18:08:32 [akeerthi]
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18:08:36 [garykac]
we would welcome more participation
18:08:43 [garykac]
it's currently a small but regular group
18:09:01 [garykac]
if youlet us know if the time doesn't work well for you
18:09:38 [garykac]
various topics we cover:
18:09:40 [garykac]
cut copy paste
18:10:33 [garykac]
input events - eg: user input generate various rich editing tasks (like making text bold or italic)
18:10:48 [annevk]
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18:11:30 [garykac]
contenteditable disabled
18:12:08 [annevk]
RRSAgent, link?
18:12:08 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'link'
18:12:18 [annevk]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:12:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-editing-minutes.html annevk
18:12:21 [garykac]
johannes: with contenteditable disabled, this allows devs to disable menus items that are not supported.
18:12:48 [garykac]
travis: next in list of what we cover: virtual keyboard api
18:12:58 [garykac]
control when the virtual keyboard is shown or hidden
18:13:26 [garykac]
and understand what part of the screen geometry is hidden by the virtual keyboard
18:14:19 [garykac]
Edit context API - new api to handle input before contenteditable. so you don't have to keep canceling everything you override. cleaner api.
18:15:16 [garykac]
Do we have any other specs in scope?
18:15:31 [garykac]
johanes: execCommand spec is in the archive.
18:15:49 [garykac]
warning that it's deprecated, but there's still interest to make some changes there
18:16:18 [garykac]
and some years (5-6) ago we started working on different types of contenteditable, but we haven't spent much time on that recently
18:16:34 [garykac]
that's currently waiting until input event is complete before revisiting.
18:17:06 [garykac]
Also on the agenda:
18:17:13 [garykac]
clipboard pickling
18:17:14 [rego_]
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18:17:36 [xiaoqian]
topic: clipboard pickling
18:17:59 [garykac]
simon: can we add plaintext to the agenda
18:18:01 [alexk]
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18:18:59 [garykac]
andreubotella: can we talk about IME event order and cancelablility
18:19:52 [garykac]
jgraham: also testing ime input in web browsers
18:21:58 [garykac]
topic: plaintext only
18:22:21 [xiaoqian]
s/topic: clipboard pickling//
18:22:25 [zcorpan]
https://github.com/w3c/editing/pull/407
18:22:34 [zcorpan]
https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/8275
18:22:46 [garykac]
simon: define contexteditable=plaintext-only
18:22:54 [garykac]
...implemented in webkit and chromium
18:23:14 [garykac]
...like contenteditable=true except some commands are disabled
18:23:31 [garykac]
...also affects the execCommand behavior (eg: bold does nothing)
18:24:30 [garykac]
...implemented as CSS properties (at least in chromium)
18:25:22 [johanneswilm]
+q
18:25:30 [garykac]
...would like to remove the CSS property, but concerns that it would cause issues
18:25:40 [garykac]
...CSS group doesn't want to standardize the user modify property
18:25:55 [zcorpan]
https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/popularity
18:26:23 [ayui]
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18:26:50 [annevk]
Why does MDN talk about user-modify? Is there a semi-standardized version?
18:26:53 [garykac]
...working on WPTs for interop
18:26:55 [Travis]
q?
18:26:57 [jgraham]
q+
18:27:42 [garykac]
...we have a draft spec for execcommand that covers the core behavior (at least as much as contenteditable=true)
18:27:46 [Travis]
ack johanneswilm
18:27:54 [garykac]
johannes: last time we looked at this (many years ago)
18:28:13 [garykac]
...we thought that web editors could use this instead of contenteditable
18:28:32 [garykac]
...concern that browser could add new commands that you didn't intend to support.
18:28:49 [garykac]
...so maybe we could use =plaintext-only to address that.
18:29:17 [garykac]
...but some current usage have specific needs that don't overlap well with the needs of web editors
18:29:30 [garykac]
...so what is the goal of =plaintext
18:29:44 [garykac]
simon: idea is to get more interop between browsers
18:30:23 [garykac]
...to specify =plaintext so that a new browser impl has a reference
18:31:14 [garykac]
johanneswilm: that would be great if this could be adopted widely - we identified potential issues with this previously
18:31:30 [garykac]
simon: is part of the web platform (for better or worse) so we should spec it
18:31:35 [garykac]
...it might have odd behaviors
18:31:51 [garykac]
...but we should just bake it and then work to create something new/better
18:32:17 [Travis]
ack jgraham
18:32:23 [garykac]
johanneswilm: that sounds reasonable, we need to be careful how we message it. Eg., do we tell web editors that they should use this
18:32:34 [garykac]
jgraham: not impl in gecko.
18:32:53 [garykac]
...some sites can break do this this. (we've had bugs reported)
18:33:09 [garykac]
...no real opinion on this but there are bugs reported about it
18:33:16 [Travis]
q?
18:33:19 [garykac]
...not a high priority, but it is an issue
18:33:28 [jgraham]
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1291467 is the gecko bug, which has links to the broken sites
18:33:40 [zcorpan]
q+
18:33:56 [garykac]
travis: sounds like a reasonable thing: CSS doesn't like it; it causes some issues; ...
18:34:05 [garykac]
...what are the next steps simon?
18:34:20 [garykac]
simon: concerned about the status of the (deprecated) execCommand spec
18:34:30 [garykac]
...should we replace execCommand spec with another one?
18:34:37 [garykac]
...or something else?
18:34:39 [Travis]
q?
18:35:40 [garykac]
johannes: execCommand, even if impl perfectly, cannot be used by JS editors because if they need to divert from it in any way, then immediatly they can't use it because they need to re-write a log.
18:35:54 [garykac]
...hence recommendation of JS editors NOT to base it on execCommand
18:36:00 [snianu]
spec'ing execCommands would be interesting. All browsers have different behaviors and no one wants to change the behavior because sites might break due to the hacks they have in-place for all browsers.
18:36:05 [garykac]
...many dev hours have been wasted on this
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18:36:32 [garykac]
...having said this, there are some editing projects that make use of this, but they hit a wall when they need to make changes
18:36:44 [garykac]
...we don't expect execCommand to turn into a spec that gets published.
18:37:02 [garykac]
...there have been some discussions on whether or not we can standardize things more
18:37:08 [garykac]
...does it make sense to try to do so?
18:37:24 [garykac]
...but to fully standardize across all browsers is a big, difficult task
18:37:33 [Travis]
ack zcorpan
18:37:46 [garykac]
simon: I understand that it's a terrible API and hard to make it interop
18:37:56 [garykac]
...but still, it's part of the web platform
18:38:01 [garykac]
...and websites expect it to be there
18:38:10 [garykac]
...so we need a normative spec
18:38:24 [garykac]
...would be nice to see a spec that's not marked as "Archived"
18:38:39 [andreubotella]
q+
18:38:47 [garykac]
johannes: if you look back on mailing list and github issues, this has been discussed A LOT.
18:39:07 [garykac]
...we've already spent a lot of time trying to fix things with execCommand
18:39:30 [garykac]
...it will probably require a lot more if we open this up again
18:39:48 [Travis]
ack andreubotella
18:39:50 [garykac]
...there is value in doing this, but be aware of the history
18:40:32 [garykac]
andreu: execCommand still needs to work even in the plaintext-only case
18:40:48 [garykac]
travis: we need a spec, we need to know what plaintext means, but it's going to get hairy
18:40:56 [garykac]
...because it currently is underspecified.
18:41:34 [johanneswilm]
+q
18:41:43 [garykac]
annevk: it would be good to some documentation and tests for this.
18:41:57 [garykac]
...I don't think we can completely ignore execCommand and pretend it doesn't exist
18:42:09 [garykac]
...ideally we could chip away at the issues and make progress
18:46:37 [Travis]
topic: end
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18:52:20 [polx]
Scribenick: polx
18:52:41 [polx]
Topic: IME Input in WebDriver (James G)
18:52:58 [jgraham]
Github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/issues/1683
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18:53:35 [polx]
jgraham: Observed a few problems with IME, breaking big things in tests.
18:54:14 [polx]
… One of the problems: spec is difficult to handle. Part of Chrome 2022 Project.
18:54:29 [polx]
s/Chrome/Intro/
18:54:42 [polx]
s/Intro/Interop/
18:55:32 [polx]
… Webdriver is what we have for testing. Choice of device. Time, how did the state of the device changed?
18:55:38 [garykac]
q+
18:55:50 [johanneswilm]
q-
18:56:01 [polx]
… How do we change something in that model?
18:56:30 [polx]
… Proposal in #1683
18:56:49 [polx]
s/#1683/ webdriver # 1683/
18:57:12 [polx]
… ime is more of something in the middle.
18:57:54 [polx]
… pressing a key event is not through the IME entirely.
18:58:08 [polx]
… should be interecepted.
18:58:59 [polx]
… last part: also a clauses .
18:59:41 [polx]
… ranges of data to which IME “corresponds”.
18:59:43 [Travis]
q+
19:00:19 [polx]
… Other OS-apis say things differently.
19:00:58 [annevk]
q?
19:01:00 [Travis]
ack garykac
19:01:23 [polx]
Gary: critical for testing. A simpler version: we just can’t test keyboards.
19:01:36 [polx]
s/Gary/garykac/
19:02:02 [polx]
q+
19:02:21 [Travis]
@polx, I will scribe you when you talk.
19:02:23 [polx]
… seems like only injecting the low-level key-events is the thing you can do in testing.
19:03:13 [polx]
… trying to create a model of how IMEs work which sounds hard to grasp.
19:04:13 [polx]
Other guy: won’t it depend on too much environment (e.g. devices).
19:04:26 [Travis]
s/Other guy/andreubotella
19:04:49 [polx]
garykac: e.g. en-uk keyboard different than en-us keys.
19:05:40 [polx]
jgraham: Goal is operating in the intermediate layer.
19:06:46 [polx]
garykac: you will not get the details of the testing.
19:07:10 [polx]
jgraham: you get information such as “IME is activated” etc… not necessarily very specific.
19:07:53 [polx]
… it would not control such things “not doable on a french keyboard”.
19:08:18 [Travis]
ack tilgovi
19:08:21 [Travis]
ack Travis
19:08:58 [polx]
Travis: I acknoledge it won’t be complete but helps a bit. This may help for the event garbled order.
19:09:03 [garykac]
q+
19:09:18 [annevk]
q+ to ask who reviewed this
19:09:22 [polx]
… The context spec may be relevant.
19:09:30 [Travis]
ack polx
19:09:44 [Travis]
polx: When I was listening to IME things.. seemed close to a11y input systems.
19:09:53 [Travis]
.. you probably considered these as special input already?
19:10:11 [Travis]
.. would dictation, other a11y input be handled too?
19:10:21 [polx]
ack polx
19:10:25 [Travis]
jgraham: yes, that's interesting to support
19:10:39 [Travis]
.. e.g., handwriting API - like an input for pointer events.
19:10:54 [Travis]
.. not sure if the model we're using is flexible to handle it, but we can imagine adding in others.
19:11:20 [Travis]
polx: Liked your reference to french keyboard... lots of things that get confusing without low-level vision.
19:11:44 [polx]
garykac: a keyboard layout would help.
19:11:45 [johanneswilm]
+q
19:12:08 [polx]
s/layout/layout change/
19:12:17 [Travis]
ack garykac
19:12:52 [polx]
garykac: I have the impression it fills a gap but the expectations may come too high, giving an ideal model of what an IME can do.
19:13:09 [polx]
… I don’t see that being the case.
19:13:34 [polx]
… I think that this is useful to do.
19:13:51 [smaug]
q+
19:13:58 [polx]
… Risk of being biassed towards a particular implementation.
19:15:08 [polx]
… If you look at the proposed spec, you can’t generate that sequence.
19:16:09 [polx]
garykac: Also encode the differences between windows and mac?
19:16:54 [polx]
jgraham: Sees an IME as a mapping Different platform events => DOM events.
19:17:49 [polx]
garykac: A tester woudl test such scenarios as testing auto-completiion, even nested, of different suggestions.
19:18:00 [polx]
s/suggestions./suggestions?/
19:18:19 [polx]
jgraham: Looking at the spec will show it is incomplete.
19:18:22 [Travis]
ack annevk
19:18:22 [Zakim]
annevk, you wanted to ask who reviewed this
19:18:23 [polx]
ack garykac
19:18:54 [polx]
annevk: Submited to xxx?
19:19:13 [polx]
jgraham: He will look at the proposal.
19:19:27 [polx]
s/xxx/masuyki/
19:20:09 [polx]
jgraham: some years ago, another proposal was ciruclated and made every fear.
19:20:19 [polx]
annevk: will consider for macos
19:20:22 [Travis]
ack johanneswilm
19:21:08 [polx]
johanneswilm: Much feedback received that testing this is a missing feature.
19:22:10 [polx]
… If it turns out, it does not correspond to a reality… what are the options?
19:22:48 [polx]
jgraham: Compatibility has a different scope.
19:23:19 [polx]
jgraham: If we have a problem early, then we can try changing stuffs.
19:23:43 [polx]
annevk: Webdriver does not have much backward compatibility worries.
19:23:54 [Travis]
ack smaug
19:24:54 [polx]
olli: Acknowledge the difficulty. Different orders would take care of differences between, say, Korean and Japanese IMEs?
19:26:01 [polx]
jgraham: you’re not constraining what the IME does. Can you differ keyDown/keyUp? yes.
19:26:22 [polx]
… can you differentiate the composite events? Not really.
19:26:55 [polx]
Travis: different IME sources that would give different logic.
19:27:00 [Travis]
q?
19:27:01 [whsieh]
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19:27:40 [polx]
jgraham: Thanks for the feedback. It will evolve.
19:27:51 [howard-e]
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19:28:15 [polx]
… remain to aim at 2022 for the consensus of a model.
19:29:29 [Travis]
topic, close
19:29:33 [Travis]
topic, end
19:29:38 [xiaoqian]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:29:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-editing-minutes.html xiaoqian
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20:19:35 [snianu]
present+
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20:22:16 [Travis]
scribe: Travis
20:22:42 [Travis]
snianu: Hi 'yall!
20:22:59 [Travis]
.. I work on "web custom types" (not pickling any more)
20:23:22 [asully]
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20:23:48 [Travis]
.. overview: were two different APIs in clipboard: datatransfer and async clipboard (which doesn't require an event to get to the clipboard.
20:24:02 [Travis]
.. web custom type support only added to async clipboard
20:24:16 [Travis]
.. (technically you can add custom types in datatransfer api)
20:24:41 [Travis]
.. custom formats are added to the clipboard in specific ways.
20:24:54 [Travis]
.. e.g., custom types get web- prefix.
20:25:17 [Travis]
e.g., html: text/html and from web "web text/html"
20:25:23 [annevk]
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20:25:31 [garykac]
q+
20:25:45 [Travis]
.. standardized custom formats can be registered.
20:25:52 [Travis]
.. limited to 100 on Windows.
20:26:05 [polx]
q+
20:26:11 [Travis]
.. (not a limit on mime-types, but on OS clipboard formats--for security reasons)
20:26:18 [Travis]
.. (see explainer for more details)
20:26:30 [Travis]
.. custom types are unsanitized by default.
20:27:11 [Travis]
.. if accessing an unsanitized web text/html, (but it's not in the clipboard) then you won't get access (no auto-conversion)
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20:27:29 [Travis]
.. one of the differences between the proposal and what's in chromium.
20:27:31 [Travis]
q?
20:27:35 [Travis]
ack garykac
20:27:42 [Travis]
garykac: trying to catch up here...
20:28:03 [Travis]
.. in an older proposal, there was only one giant blob with all the types. (Was there to work around the limit.)
20:28:11 [Travis]
.. 100-limit is Windows-only?
20:28:51 [Travis]
snianu: in chromium, we are limiting all to 100 (it's also a limit on other platforms--Linux).
20:29:12 [Travis]
.. It's a bad issue in Linux...when you exceed the Atom table size...
20:29:24 [smaug]
q+
20:29:26 [Travis]
garykac: Is there an error type defined when you hit the limit?
20:29:32 [Travis]
snianu: yes, we throw an exception.
20:29:50 [Travis]
garykac: So Apple could not worry about throwing (with no limit).
20:30:06 [Travis]
.. or do you want a cross-browser limit to apply?
20:30:26 [Travis]
snianu: I would like to see it standardized. We added it for Linux/Windows. Not sure about MacOS.
20:30:55 [Travis]
garykac: why "web " prefix?
20:31:10 [Travis]
annevk: It's *supposed* to not parse as a mime-type. By design.
20:31:30 [Travis]
garykac: Ok, makes sense. You want to opt-in to support.
20:32:02 [Travis]
annevk: in theory, a web- prefix might be confused with "web-something-something/else" ? How would you distinguish.
20:32:05 [Travis]
ack polx
20:32:22 [Travis]
polx: First, would like to see how much desktop should be able to "do that"?
20:32:33 [Travis]
.. for desktop, when you see "web " consider untrusted.
20:32:43 [Travis]
.. In Windows you can invent any name anyways, so no problem.
20:32:53 [Travis]
.. but on MacOS, the names aren't readable?
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20:33:14 [Travis]
.. Does the spec say how desktop native clipboard should go into which formats?
20:33:22 [Travis]
snianu: Yes, it's in a PR (not yet merged).
20:33:30 [Travis]
.. It's up to the OS, of course.
20:33:40 [Travis]
.. If the OS allows reading custom types...
20:33:57 [Travis]
.. Doesn't need a standard. If an app wants to read/write that data, they can.
20:34:02 [annevk]
q?
20:34:11 [Travis]
polx: My interest is in Math formulua (MathML)
20:34:18 [Travis]
.. we put a media type format in the list.
20:34:30 [Travis]
.. An fellow from Apple said we couldn't do that.
20:34:45 [Travis]
.. (Back then 2010, there weren't rules, not there are)
20:34:49 [Travis]
s/not/now
20:35:03 [Travis]
.. Important for desktop apps to use it.
20:35:24 [Travis]
snianu: (not reading) is by design. We want native apps to opt-in.
20:35:32 [Travis]
polx: How does the opt-in happening?
20:35:40 [Travis]
annevk: You write the code for it.
20:35:56 [Travis]
polx: What is the way to do that?
20:36:15 [Travis]
.. I just want to be sure desktop apps can opt-in.
20:36:43 [Travis]
.. was a demo yesterday about AVIF, and copy/paste seemed to work...
20:37:10 [Travis]
snianu: We could map to mathML types, but for custom types, we don't know how to create a sanitizer for it.
20:37:23 [Travis]
polx: This has been making it challenging for a while now...
20:37:40 [Travis]
annevk: But a native app should be able to get the correct name too.
20:37:43 [Travis]
q?
20:37:51 [Travis]
ack smaug
20:38:09 [Travis]
smaug: So, the PR? If it's shipped, why isn't the PR landed?
20:38:29 [Travis]
polx: The release notes don't contain the new info yet.
20:38:39 [Travis]
garykac: where's the bug, and related discussion?
20:38:46 [smaug]
https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/175
20:39:07 [snianu]
Here is the PR: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/175
20:39:23 [smaug]
https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/165
20:40:25 [Travis]
travis: anyone else you'd like to have review while Bo is away?
20:40:32 [polx]
q+
20:40:52 [Travis]
snianu: It's been through various iterations. Now it finally has consensus.
20:41:05 [Travis]
polx: I want to review how this is to be done on the native apps side.
20:41:13 [Travis]
.. not sure app impls are easy to write.
20:41:13 [johanneswilm]
ack polx
20:41:29 [Travis]
.. Would like to know how to standardize predicting interop for this?
20:41:41 [Travis]
.. Would there be some best-practices? Is it written in the spec.
20:42:03 [Travis]
snianu: Custom types don't need to be standardized.
20:42:33 [johanneswilm]
+q
20:42:53 [Travis]
snianu: In the OS, when a native app tries to read a format, it just won't work, since they have to write code for how to get the custom type out.
20:43:26 [Travis]
.. The native app just has to do a map from custom types to what they expect.
20:43:44 [Travis]
polx: Doesn't seem hard; the apps just review the list and pull out.
20:44:05 [Travis]
.. Tex standardized has a history.
20:44:15 [Travis]
.. never had a clipboard type for it (laTex)
20:44:36 [Travis]
.. I think media types are the right place to standardize
20:44:49 [Travis]
.. I'm just suggesting we note "that" in the spec.
20:45:20 [Travis]
.. if people try to do this in advance, it can help with interop.
20:45:21 [Travis]
q?
20:45:32 [Travis]
ack johanneswilm
20:45:41 [Travis]
johanneswilm: Is a bit of question about the spec.
20:45:57 [Travis]
.. we're not stopping the standardization... just about not getting browser approval.
20:46:08 [Travis]
.. what is @polx suggesting for the spec?
20:46:20 [Travis]
.. a place to go ask for standardization of types.
20:46:29 [Travis]
polx: yes, I would like this.
20:46:42 [Travis]
johanneswilm: maybe non-normative note that says...
20:47:11 [Travis]
polx: "you can go to here/here which are good forums to standardized a media type"
20:47:30 [Travis]
annevk: Idea is these are not standardized, they are up to ad-hoc.
20:47:48 [Travis]
.. I don't think this spec should document/say something about it.
20:48:03 [snianu]
agreed with annevk
20:48:16 [Travis]
polx: if you want to merge web -> desktop... I'm thinking that having a single process.
20:48:25 [Travis]
q+
20:48:44 [garykac]
q+
20:48:53 [Travis]
.. otherwise it's just peer-to-peer convention.
20:48:57 [Travis]
ack tilgovi
20:49:00 [annevk]
q+ to ask about the limit (again, sorry)
20:49:37 [Travis]
ack Travis
20:49:53 [Travis]
garykac: Tech question about registration limit.
20:50:01 [Travis]
.. it's a sys-wide limit.
20:50:03 [johanneswilm]
ack garykac
20:50:06 [dandclark]
Travis: I like the idea of redirecting readers that land in the spec to a place to go for a normal MIME type. "This isn't the spec you're looking for, if you want the standard MIME type exchange for Office then go to x".
20:50:14 [Travis]
.. registration consumes an entry.
20:50:24 [Travis]
.. How does the registration get cleaned up?
20:50:40 [Travis]
snianu: I don't think it's possible. Only cleaned up on restart. Ugg.
20:50:50 [Travis]
garykac: So a reboot would fix it.
20:51:00 [Travis]
snianu: one caveot. 100-custom format limit...
20:51:25 [Travis]
.. they cannot write more than 100 formats to be written.
20:51:34 [Travis]
.. then they get an exception.
20:52:02 [Travis]
.. the 100 limit is not the max(mimetypes)...
20:53:01 [Travis]
.. across different pages, you might have more mimetypes.
20:53:11 [Travis]
garykac: This is in the PR?
20:53:13 [Travis]
snianu: yes.
20:53:14 [Travis]
q?
20:53:18 [Travis]
ack annevk
20:53:18 [Zakim]
annevk, you wanted to ask about the limit (again, sorry)
20:53:36 [Travis]
annevk: the explainer says the limit is per "user session"
20:53:39 [Travis]
.. how does that work?
20:53:59 [Travis]
snianu: I meant "OS session" (not browser session)
20:54:18 [Travis]
snianu: So 16K is the Os limit, but per origin is 100.
20:54:37 [Travis]
annevk: Again, to create a clipboard registration, do you need a user permission?
20:54:50 [Travis]
snianu: In chromium, yes. (permission is needed)
20:55:09 [Travis]
annevk: Pretty easy for a website to create various origins.
20:55:26 [Travis]
snianu: The same mimetypes will be reused as they are found.
20:55:48 [Travis]
q?
20:55:51 [Travis]
q+
20:56:16 [Travis]
ack Travis
20:56:25 [Travis]
annevk: There's a platform registry.
20:56:34 [Travis]
.. first origin writes 100 custom formats
20:56:42 [Travis]
.. it uses all the slots in the registry
20:56:59 [Travis]
.. there's a mapping from mimetypes to registry slots.
20:57:23 [Travis]
.. next origin writes 100... it overwrites the current registry slots with new content.
20:57:44 [Travis]
.. Thanks for re-reviewing with me!
20:58:03 [Travis]
polx: What's next?
20:58:13 [Travis]
snianu: Approve the PR, and land the change!
20:59:02 [Travis]
polx: Implementation plans?
20:59:10 [Travis]
snianu: Already shipped in Chromium.
20:59:46 [Travis]
smaug: Waiting for it to land in the spec!
21:00:52 [Travis]
garykac: snianu do you own this going forward?
21:00:57 [Travis]
snianu: right now, yes.
21:02:43 [Travis]
polx: Is the "pickling" (the word) gone?
21:02:48 [Travis]
snianu: yes
21:04:17 [polx]
@snianu: It would be cool if you had other literature references (e.g. at apple’s… there’s very little)
21:08:09 [snianu]
unfortunately there is not an "official" documentation, but here is a blog from a Windows dev about the format limit: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20150319-00/?p=44433
21:08:37 [Travis]
🐔
21:16:44 [garykac]
Travis's machine is done rebooting (and installing updates) now.
21:19:17 [polx]
scribe: Polx
21:19:31 [polx]
Topic: Andreu: IME order/cancelability
21:20:00 [polx]
andreubotella: Project with Bloomboerg, editor with contenteditable.
21:20:28 [polx]
.. wanted to detect the input event and replace a typed input of an emoji with a picture emoji.
21:21:00 [polx]
.. They asked methods to do that. One of the suggestion was cancelling key events.
21:21:56 [johanneswilm]
+q
21:22:08 [polx]
.. but for composition this is different, beforeinput, input, then dom-update.
21:22:33 [andreubotella]
https://github.com/w3c/input-events/issues/134
21:22:42 [polx]
.. Issue 134 of input-events.
21:23:18 [polx]
… reviewing https://github.com/w3c/input-events/issues/134
21:23:42 [andreubotella]
https://github.com/w3c/input-events/issues/135
21:23:50 [polx]
.. Showing a few positive voices, not all solvable.
21:24:12 [polx]
s/, not all solvable/, not all comments solvable
21:25:24 [polx]
.. observing contradicting implementatons on https://github.com/w3c/input-events/issues/135
21:25:58 [polx]
.. At least desirable to have the cancelability doable.
21:26:55 [polx]
.. All in all quite some issues:
21:27:07 [polx]
.. #134: seems to be too hard.
21:27:49 [Travis]
q?
21:27:53 [polx]
If done, then it cancellation should be doable.
21:27:54 [Travis]
ack johanneswilm
21:28:35 [polx]
johanneswilm: History: input-events were made and were supposed to be cancellable. Just before shipping, info that on some Android IME-input-events were not cancellable.
21:28:55 [polx]
.. Chrome makes some input events not cancellable.
21:30:01 [polx]
.. spec needs to be split.
21:30:21 [polx]
.. Level 2 becomes nonetheless implemented.
21:31:29 [polx]
.. If we have editContext, then cancellability is kind of solved.
21:31:56 [polx]
.. With EditContext, javascript needs to update the DOM itself.
21:33:38 [polx]
.. About event owner: you are right, it should be there, seems to join the thought of the time.
21:34:22 [polx]
garykac: the algorithm needs to be there unless you’re going to include the order in many many specs.
21:34:22 [Travis]
q?
21:34:45 [annevk]
annevk has joined #editing
21:35:21 [polx]
johanneswilm: suggesting to move parts of the spec.
21:35:29 [annevk]
+1 to garykac; one user input algorithm to rule them all \o/
21:35:41 [polx]
garikac: the event order needs to be hoisted.
21:36:31 [polx]
garikac: We’re trying to specify the algorithm.
21:37:27 [polx]
andreubottella: editContext without contentEditable?
21:37:36 [polx]
travis: yes
21:37:56 [polx]
johanneswilm: combinations can work.
21:38:26 [polx]
johanneswilm: e.g. move-around gestures.
21:39:58 [polx]
andrewbottella: seems to be satisfied with the help of editContext.
21:40:15 [polx]
s/andrewbottella/andrewbotella/
21:40:55 [polx]
action: gary moves the event-ordering section from input-events to ui-events.
21:40:57 [andreubotella]
s/andrewbotella/andreubotella/
21:42:45 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/405
21:42:47 [polx]
garykac: Section numbers may become confusing.
21:42:52 [polx]
Topic end
21:43:04 [polx]
Topic: Editing out of body (Johanneswilm)
21:44:04 [polx]
johanneswilm: Part of the interop project: we should define how contentEditable outside of the body. A version of CKeditor 4 gave a bug to it.
21:44:12 [garykac]
Input Events section 6: https://www.w3.org/TR/input-events-2/#event-order-during-ime-composition
21:44:22 [polx]
s/gave a bug/met a hindering bug/
21:44:32 [Travis]
q+
21:44:46 [polx]
.. CKeditor’s people found ways around it.
21:45:07 [polx]
.. Maybe someone else uses it.
21:45:13 [polx]
garykac: Usage scenario?
21:45:36 [polx]
johanneswilm: e.g. to get clipboard.
21:45:38 [annevk]
q+ to ask some starter questions
21:45:48 [polx]
Travis: It seems arbitrary.
21:46:07 [garykac]
ack travis
21:46:36 [polx]
andreubottella: head can contain contentEditable.
21:46:45 [polx]
annevk: even several body elements work.
21:47:19 [polx]
johanneswilm: We want to find out if there are useful use cases.
21:47:37 [polx]
annevk: meeting these dark use cases to deduce importance.
21:47:45 [garykac]
q+
21:49:03 [polx]
johanneswilm: CKeditor old code: if in Firefox put it outside the body, if on Safari, put it inside.
21:49:25 [polx]
.. CKeditor 5 doesn’t use it anymore.
21:49:59 [polx]
annevk: How do you define body?
21:50:44 [polx]
andreubottellla: some hacks I remmeber working.
21:51:08 [polx]
annevk: some funky expriments
21:51:27 [andreubotella]
s/andreubottellla/andreubotella/
21:51:33 [polx]
garykac: if it works in all browser, then maybe we should standardize it.
21:52:03 [johanneswilm]
https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-2022-editing/issues/8
21:52:32 [polx]
johanneswilm: mayasuki was mentioning a compat issue.
21:53:14 [annevk_]
annevk_ has joined #editing
21:53:27 [andreubotella]
q+
21:53:49 [polx]
johanneswilm: We may be spending time inappropriately.
21:54:19 [polx]
garykac: If a new browser implementor came over, should they implement it?
21:54:24 [annevk_]
https://annevankesteren.nl/test/contenteditable-style.htm is my demo btw
21:54:59 [polx]
travis: will have to figure out where that goes in the processing model.
21:55:46 [polx]
johanneswilm: Where would the eight principles go to?
21:56:10 [polx]
travis: we might get to it at some point, but we don’t see the priority.
21:56:34 [polx]
johanneswilm: Seems to be there on the interop-2023.
21:56:47 [polx]
andreubottella: 2023 sounds too early.
21:57:25 [polx]
… but many of this makes sense.
21:58:25 [polx]
garykac: an experiment… brought all the content inside the page.
21:59:15 [polx]
johanneswilm: got it to work with JavaScript
21:59:24 [polx]
annevk: The parser would filter it out. That’s why one succeeds the other not.
22:00:04 [polx]
travis: is there a 2022 interop bug ?
22:01:14 [polx]
travis: leaving the duty to spec to the children of the children.
22:02:22 [andreubotella]
q-
22:03:18 [polx]
topic end
22:03:51 [polx]
Discussion about the 17:00 meeting. Travis will ask the W3C staff to cancel the meeting.
22:04:15 [andreubotella]
andreubotella has left #editing
22:04:19 [polx]
RRSAgent darft minutes.
22:04:27 [polx]
RRSAgent draft minutes.
22:04:58 [xiaoqian]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:04:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-editing-minutes.html xiaoqian
22:05:06 [Travis]
@xiaoqian Thanks so much!!
22:13:12 [polx]
polx has joined #editing