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14:15:20 <dom> Meeting: Improving the Web Developer Experience  - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:15:22 <dom> Chair: Dominique_Hazael-Massieux, Kadir_Topal
14:15:24 <dom> Agenda:  https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/cf75fe88-4de5-4700-82be-63359d49760d#agenda
14:15:26 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
14:15:28 <dom> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:19:18 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
14:19:20 <dom> Zakim, stay
14:19:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'stay', dom
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16:13:35 <dom> agenda+ breakout
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20:26:49 <dom> Present+ Kadir, Dom, JamesG, DavidG, JoeM
20:26:56 <dom> Present+ NeilS
20:27:11 <dom> Present+ Symon
20:28:32 <dom> Present° Miriam, Yehonathan
20:28:41 <tidoust> present+ Francois
20:29:45 <dom> Present+ tidoust, VincentS
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20:30:31 <dom> Present+ JohnR, FLorianScholz, AndyLuhrs, DavidBaron
20:30:57 <dom> Present+ RichardWorth, Geunhyung
20:31:08 <dom> Present+ DavidClarke
20:31:36 <dom> Present+ MarkcCarthy
20:31:42 <dom> Present+ Rachel
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20:32:16 <dom> Present+ RobEisenberg
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20:33:02 <dom> Slideset: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2022Sep/att-0004/Developer_Experience__TPAC_breakout_2022.pdf
20:33:05 <dom> Present+ DavidSInger
20:33:09 <dom> Present+ PhilA
20:33:13 <dom> Present+ MatthewA
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20:33:42 <miriam> present+
20:33:43 <dom> Kadir: the feature is there and not there at the same time - you have to deal with this a developer
20:34:07 <dom> ... Some of us have been thinking on this topic for a while - want to present the results of thinking and open it up for disccussion
20:34:16 <dom> [slide 2]
20:34:28 <dom> Present+ AlexL
20:34:34 <dom> [slide 3]
20:34:40 <dom> [slide 4]
20:34:52 <dom> [slide 5]
20:35:05 <dom> Kadir: 2 main problems: keeping up with changes, and fragmentation in browsers
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20:35:19 <dom> ... hard to know when a feature becomes well-supported
20:35:31 <dom> ... there are real interop issues as discussed in the Interop 2023 session
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20:35:49 <dom> ... the way the platform is managed has an impact - not just missing features & capabilities
20:35:55 <dom> [slide 6]
20:36:13 <dom> Kadir: the MDN survey we ran in 2019 highlighted these issues
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20:36:32 <dom> ... A simplified picture of how a feature lands on the platform
20:36:38 <duga> present+
20:36:41 <dom> ... ideally, this starts with research on what people might want and why
20:36:52 <dom> ... that research is currently ad hoc if done at all
20:36:58 <dom> Present+ AnnetteG
20:37:02 <dom> Present+ DanielL
20:37:13 <dom> ... this leads to spec & implementations, and then a drive to adoption
20:37:28 <brwalder> present+
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20:37:38 <dom> [slide 7]
20:37:56 <dom> Kadir: a recent addition in this project is the Interop initiative to help addressing fragementation issues
20:38:20 <dom> ... but this still leaves a few open questions around research and awareness on adoption
20:38:28 <David-Clarke> present+
20:38:31 <dom> ... how things get prioritized and get deployed to developers
20:38:37 <dom> [slide 8]
20:38:48 <dom> Kadir: research done together has more impact than done by individual vendors
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20:39:04 <dom> ... in particular on what gets built *and* accelerated through this process
20:39:15 <dom> ... what developer needs, what keep them away from the platform
20:39:25 <dom> ... there is an opportunity to feed into the prioritization process
20:40:04 <dom> ... at the tail end of the process, probably the most neglected part right now, in terms of awareness & adoption
20:40:11 <dom> ... adoption is the overall motivation we're here for
20:40:20 <dom> ... interop helps with fixing fragmentation issues
20:40:39 <dom> ... but figuring what the right problems are, and letting the world knows when these problems are fixed would be useful complement to Interop
20:40:45 <dom> [slide 9]
20:41:15 <dom> Kadir: two goals for this addition: clear guidance on what has landed and what hasn't yet
20:41:44 <dom> ... longer term, reducing the time to ship the right features through better coordination
20:42:03 <dom> ... so that the question "can I use" doesn't have to last several years
20:42:18 <dom> ... Dom brought together people around these questions, based on the Interop effort
20:42:37 <dom> ... we've been looking at the developer experience, the outcomes of the Web DNA survey
20:42:41 <dom> [slide 10]
20:42:53 <dom> Kadir: we identified 2 opportunities of collaboration:
20:42:58 <dom> ... - shared researched
20:43:09 <dom> ... - building awareness of available features
20:43:40 <dom> ... In terms of research, finding an unbiased source is key, and MDN provides a great opportunity for this
20:44:05 <dom> ... Philip and Robert Nyman had been working with the MDN team to set up infrastructure for running short surveys on MDN
20:44:38 <dom> ... in terms of clarity of what's available on the platform - there is of course "can I use", but things aren't so simple when you look at the details
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20:44:49 <dom> ... e.G. MDN documents 500 features for WebRTC, 2 in can I use
20:45:04 <dom> ... describing that "a feature is available" requires agreeing what a feature is
20:45:21 <dom> ... we're trying to build a shared taxonomy of features across MDN, can I use and others
20:45:56 <dom> [slide 11]
20:46:54 <dom> Kadir: so the idea is to complement the Interop project with more regular research to feed into the prioiritization process, and a dashboard to provide more visibility and awareness of the situation, and in terms of awareness, creating opportunities for "moments in time" when interoperable platform land
20:47:03 <dom> ... there is a unique opportunity to do something like that
20:47:18 <dom> ... for a very long time, IE11 provided the baseline of the Web platform
20:47:28 <dom> ... that is falling away now
20:47:55 <dom> ... we're no longer held back by this
20:48:13 <dom> ... the list of "safe" interoperable features will now be growing every year
20:48:30 <dom> ... This has been our focus on Developer Experience
20:48:39 <dom> [slide 12]
20:48:57 <dom> Kadir: is DX something that needs to be targeted?
20:49:09 <dom> ... if so, are there other items to consider beyond the 2 we described
20:49:28 <dom> ... What would make the research more impactful and useful? how to make sure it is used in prioritization
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20:49:42 <dom> ... what would be the good and bad ways to go about clarity and guidance on what the platform is?
20:49:49 <dom> q?
20:50:29 <dom> DavidG: what kind of buy-in are you getting on the shared research idea?
20:50:44 <dom> Kadir: so far, mostly informal conversations with people from all browser vendors
20:50:48 <ydaniv> q+
20:50:58 <Joe_M> q+
20:51:02 <dom> ... there is quite a lot of interest in doing that research together
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20:51:13 <dom> ... because of the impact we've seen from that before
20:51:49 <dom> ... coming up with questions together is important too
20:52:04 <dom> ydaniv: during adoption, there can be browser bugs
20:52:16 <dom> ... it's somewhat related to the DX - if the feature is there but you're running into issues (new & old)
20:52:53 <dom> ... browser bug trackers are really hard to use to keep track of these bug fixes
20:53:04 <miriam> +1
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20:53:24 <dom> ... it's also really hard to get people to open issues or look for them, or to submit reproducible cases
20:53:46 <jgraham> q+
20:53:47 <dom> ... leading to people using polyfills to work around this, leading to bloat
20:54:06 <dom> kadir: so this is about closing feedback loop, when something ships
20:54:10 <dom> ack ydaniv
20:54:38 <dom> ydaniv: more accessible bug trackers with better input to prioritization would help
20:55:07 <dom> ... when you identify a bug in the process of a development, making a bug reproducible ends up being very costly
20:55:19 <dom> kadir: good point
20:55:30 <dom> ack jgraham
20:56:11 <dom> jgraham: we've wanted for a long time to help e.g. jQuery keep track of bugs they didn't need to work around any more
20:56:14 <Joe_M> q-
20:56:35 <miriam> q+
20:56:35 <dom> ... getting that input has proved useful
20:56:50 <dom> ... not clear how much easier we can make it to file a browser bug
20:57:03 <dom> ... there are already a lot of dup filing
20:57:18 <dom> ... finding existing issues is a challenge for everyone
20:57:27 <dom> ... some of the complexity might be irreductible
20:57:39 <dom> ... all the more so if the problem is ill-identified
20:58:26 <dom> ... Web compat teams do some of the reduction work, but that doesn't scale
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20:58:40 <dom> Present+ JonathanDavis
20:58:45 <kadirtopal> present+
20:58:47 <dom> Present+ CurtisB
20:58:55 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:58:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-webdx-minutes.html dom
20:59:09 <kadirtopal> q+
20:59:41 <dom> ack miriam
20:59:49 <Neil> present+
20:59:50 <dom> miriam: I have had concerns about quality of research
21:00:09 <dom> ... the state of JS people created the state of CSS research without a lot of outreach to the CSS community
21:00:31 <dom> ... not clear the data we got from that research is hard to evaluate
21:01:09 <kadirtopal> dom: part of the idea of shared research is exactly to address that: owning it together would hopefully lead to more ownership in the outcome, and trust in the outcome
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21:01:40 <kadirtopal> dom: there can still be issues though in the sampling, the questions, but doing it together should increase the chances of having useful research
21:01:44 <dom> ack kadirtopal
21:01:46 <chrishtr> q+
21:02:12 <dom> ack chrishtr
21:02:20 <dgrogan> q+
21:02:24 <dom> chrishtr: was there another survey with better information?
21:02:36 <kadirtopal> q+
21:02:52 <dom> miriam: no, but my main question about getting qualified people to get good data
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21:02:57 <dom> ... with data researchers
21:03:16 <dom> chrishtr: another aspect is transparency about the process and the sampling
21:03:39 <jgraham> q+
21:03:46 <dom> miriam: sometimes there are big skews, e.G. lots of white JS men-developers in the example of the CSS survey
21:03:57 <dom> ... that isn't convincing data
21:04:20 <RobE> I can't provide any real objective info on these surveys. But I personally find they very frustrating. Then the survey is referenced in a lot of places and used to make decisions that re-inforce the survey results.
21:04:20 <dom> Rachel: the risk is about how the survey gets shared - risks of echo chambers (which hard to get out of)
21:04:44 <David-Clarke> This is a problem for I18n where there is a strong bias to English and Western Europe
21:04:45 <RobE> Yes, echo chambers.
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21:07:04 <chrishtr> q+
21:07:33 <dom__> JamesG: clearly not all decisions should be based on surveys
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21:07:39 <jgraham> q-
21:07:45 <dom__> ... but they may still provide useful signals
21:07:57 <dom__> ack dgrogan
21:08:07 <kadirtopal> q-
21:08:27 <dom__> dgrogan: I'm one of these random survey makers :)
21:09:11 <dom__> ... re doing in the research is open - if there is expertise provided to help with getting good quality data, that's a huge incentive
21:09:38 <dom__> kadirtopal: that was a big win in the MDN DNA survey; it took quite a bit work with iteration and testing with actual developers
21:09:55 <dom__> ack chrishtr
21:10:47 <dom__> chrishtr: @@@
21:11:23 <dom__> q+ Mike™
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21:11:50 <zcorpan> present+
21:11:57 <kadirtopal> chrishtr: Should we mine bug dbs for interop issues?
21:12:29 <dom__> james: finding the right incentives structure to make good bug reporting happen at scale
21:12:51 <dom__> ... esp given the different pace of shipping between libraries and browsers
21:13:03 <dom__> ack Mi
21:13:15 <dom__> Mike: I think Chris' suggestion would be very valuable
21:13:32 <dom__> ... some bug trackers are very un-intuitive
21:13:50 <dom__> ... some bugs get locked because developers keep coming asking about progress
21:14:08 <dom__> ... this may be a signal worth tracking
21:14:35 <dom__> ... another place to look for signals is StackOverflow
21:14:54 <dom__> ... maybe something Machine Learning could help with
21:15:20 <kadirtopal> q+
21:15:27 <jgraham> q+
21:15:42 <dom__> ... SO is also not very representative given how it works or how unwelcoming it can be
21:15:50 <zcorpan> q+
21:16:34 <dom__> ack kadirtopal
21:17:02 <scheib> q+
21:17:02 <dom__> kadirtopal: I'm hearing on shared research - surveys are useful, but shouldn't be the only source of input to the prioritization process
21:17:02 <dom__> ack jgraham
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21:17:35 <dom__> jgraham: re mining browser databases, you don't want to encourage browser bug systems to become discussion forum
21:17:43 <RobE> q+
21:18:03 <dom__> ... different browsers have different policies on which signals they pay attention to (e.g. # of stars)
21:18:21 <dom__> ... creating incentive structure that creates noise is not something we want to do
21:18:36 <dom__> ack zcorpan
21:18:53 <dom__> simon: another source of interop issues in the wild - web pages working around issues in their code
21:19:08 <dom__> ... if this can be done through code analysis, use counter etc
21:19:23 <dom__> ... collecting data on how common various things are worked around
21:19:40 <dom__> ... when things are worked around, they do work - that reduces the signal to browser vendors
21:19:53 <dom__> q+ to mention polyfill, mapping features to tag/bugs
21:20:11 <dom__> simon: one example would be looking at pages that do UA sniffing and have different work around based on UA
21:20:21 <dom__> ... or CSS hacks to target browsers
21:20:31 <dom__> ... Another would be having a discussion with framework maintainers
21:20:37 <dsinger> q+ to ask if we have enough connection with website developers, and enough representation from web development framework/tool builders?
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21:20:47 <dom__> ... and ask them to give us a list of their top ten interop problems
21:20:51 <jgraham> +1 on just asking people
21:20:55 <CurtBellew> present+
21:20:56 <dom__> q?
21:21:35 <dom__> @@@: web developer experience needs targeting - but it's never been better from what I'm hearing from developers
21:22:04 <dom__> ... but modern deployments to cloud, CDN, fragmented frameworks creates a hodge podge of scripts and build systems
21:22:16 <dom__> ... which creates frustration
21:22:48 <scheib> I'd like to voice support for guiding web developers to productive forums to discuss issues, express needs, etc.  The current environment is confusing, diffused to different locations, etc.  It seems multiple browsers would have a shared interest in this, similar to how we share interest in documentation.  Perhaps those are related enough to be a possible solution.
21:24:10 <dom__> scheib: tying documentation with a place to collect dev input might be a good way
21:24:32 <dom__> ack scheib
21:24:51 <dom__> kadir: there are ways of linking browser bugs from browser compat data also in that direction
21:25:24 <dom__> Joe: as a BCD contributor, I stayed away from that- difficult to maintain
21:25:37 <dom__> ack Rob
21:26:02 <dom__> Rob: the Web platform doesn't have a good Web presence
21:26:22 <dom__> ... a Java, .Net, SwiftUI developers has 1-2 channels to keep track of everything
21:26:22 <Joe_M>  q+
21:26:26 <dom__> ... that simplifies my life
21:26:38 <dom__> ... in the Web space, this is one of the draws for frameworks
21:26:49 <dom__> ... it's a one-stop-shop to understand everything
21:26:57 <dsinger> q+ later
21:27:00 <kadirtopal> ...and I understand what's coming down the line with those platforms
21:27:05 <dsinger> q-
21:27:30 <dom__> ... having a place to keep track of bug fixes, polyfill, new feature landing, etc
21:27:39 <dom__> ... this can either take most of one's time
21:28:39 <kadirtopal> ...average devs, content creators might not even know where to find those things
21:29:10 <kadirtopal> ...I've been doing this for 20 years and hate to interact with bug trackers, it's a lot to expect that from people
21:29:57 <dom__> ack dsinger
21:30:01 <kadirtopal> ...providing developers with a channel that thy can have confidence in and based decisions on
21:30:23 <dom__> dsinger: do we have enough people from these frameworks at the table? e.G. wordpress
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21:31:16 <dom__> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:31:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-webdx-minutes.html dom__
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22:03:40 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
22:03:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items