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14:14:58 <dom> Meeting: Where's the Web in Web3?  - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:15:00 <dom> Chair: Erik_Lagerway
14:15:02 <dom> Agenda:  https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/41a4acd9-7790-4743-9a2f-da9db7141766#agenda
14:15:04 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
14:15:06 <dom> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:19:08 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
14:19:10 <dom> Zakim, stay
14:19:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'stay', dom
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16:13:31 <dom> agenda+ breakout
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23:31:25 <Geun-Hyung_Kim_> present Geun-Hyung Kim
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23:34:12 <Ian> rrsagent, pioneer?
23:34:12 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'pioneer'
23:34:30 <pchampin> present+
23:34:33 <Ian> present+
23:34:34 <jyasskin> present+
23:34:36 <Ian> present+ David_Turner
23:34:44 <fluffy> present+ Cullen Jennings
23:34:48 <betehess> present+
23:34:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-web3-minutes.html Ian
23:34:53 <igarashi> present+
23:34:55 <Karen> present+ Karen Myers
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23:35:20 <Ian> scribe: Ian
23:35:32 <gkellogg> present+ Gregg_Kellogg
23:35:39 <Ian> present+ Karl_Carter
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23:35:42 <Ian> agenda?
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23:35:50 <decentralgabe> present+
23:35:53 <Ian> zakim, drop agenda 1
23:35:53 <Zakim> agendum 1, breakout, dropped
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23:37:25 <Ian> present+ Alex_Lakatos
23:37:31 <javadch> p+
23:38:09 <benoit> present+
23:38:12 <Ian> Erik: Any objections to recording?
23:38:21 <Ian> [No objections heard]
23:38:50 <Ian> present+ Rossen_Atanassov
23:39:13 <Ian> Alex: Thanks all, for coming. I also want to introduce Karl Carter who will speak to some of the topics here.
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23:40:18 <Ian> [Alex introduces himself]
23:40:40 <Ian> Alex: Would like to hear your expectations about Web3? What does it mean to you or is it just a swear word?
23:41:23 <Ian> s/Alex:/Erik:
23:41:25 <Ian> s/Alex:/Erik:
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23:42:22 <Ian> Karl: Interested in young creators...I think of web3 as an intersection of crypto, web, ....
23:42:37 <Ian> ...how do you create new inclusive systems, including peer-to-peer monetization
23:43:16 <Ian> ....blockchain has been around for a while,
23:43:24 <Ian> ...but artists are taking note with the rise of NFTs
23:43:35 <Ian> ...the creator class has spearheaded a lot of that adoption.
23:43:53 <Ian> ...we think of web3 as creating new business models, enabled by this new tech
23:44:33 <Ian> ...we build a social media front end with a fintech background.
23:45:06 <Ian> ...to help creatives monetize their work; they are always looking for new ways
23:45:37 <Ian> Erik: How have you implemented your platform?
23:45:50 <Karen> q+ demo?
23:46:20 <Ian> EriK: How did you choose various components? Are there standards opportunities?
23:46:39 <Ian> Karl: I'm on the CTO so I won't dive into the tech details.
23:46:50 <Ian> ...I can connect you to Tawanda (the CTO)
23:46:53 <cel> s/on /not /
23:47:05 <Ian> ...we looked at a lot of blockchains and chose Stellar
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23:47:50 <Ian> ...we chose social media because it is familiar.
23:47:55 <Ian> ...we built KYC into account creation
23:48:58 <Ian> ...existing technologies for cross-border payments did not meet our needs.
23:49:04 <laka> +q
23:49:05 <Ian> ...so we turned to the Interledger Protocol.
23:49:32 <Ian> Erik: Check out what snake nation is doing
23:49:45 <marie> https://snakenation.co/
23:50:20 <Ian> Erik: Open the floor to other views on web3
23:50:29 <Ian> Erik: Here are some of my use cases....
23:50:45 <Uchi> +q
23:50:55 <Ian> ...primarily in the early days of Web3 a lot had to do with converting US dollars to the token-du-moment as fast as possible.
23:51:16 <Ian> ...it was and remains clunky to convert fiat to a token
23:51:31 <Ian> ...most decentralized finance (defi) is happening on Ethereum today.
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23:51:51 <Ian> ...But Ethereum is doing a massive refactoring.
23:51:58 <Ian> ...they are moving away from Proof of Work to a Proof of State
23:52:06 <cel> s/State/Stake/
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23:52:29 <Ian> Erik: This is, to a large extent the genesis of Web3, where most apps are deployed.
23:52:34 <marie> https://ethereum.org/en/
23:53:00 <Ian> David_Turner: Could you briefly define Web3 (if not synonymous with blockchain)?
23:53:05 <ivan> q?
23:53:16 <Ian> Erik: Web3 is a collection of technology to connect "the Web" to blockchain.
23:53:57 <Ian> -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web3 Web3 in Wikipedia
23:54:24 <Ian> Quoting that: "Web3 (also known as Web 3.0[1][2][3]) is an idea for a new iteration of the World Wide Web which incorporates concepts such as decentralization, blockchain technologies, and token-based economics.[4] "
23:54:43 <pchampin> q?
23:55:01 <Ian> Erik: Web3 might involve transactions or proof of ownership.
23:55:36 <Ian> ...exchange of tokens in a distributed ledger, using Web as the UI
23:55:41 <Ian> q?
23:55:59 <Ian> Erik: My experience has been building Web 2/3 blockchain games
23:56:20 <Ian> ...they are strategy games. You have an NFT deployment (a bunch of JPEGS), then some game mechanics
23:56:44 <Ian> ...in our case we had 10K "goblins" that were put on the Ethereum blockchain.
23:57:02 <Ian> ...Ethereum "gas" (the cost for presenting a transaction) was at an all time high.
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23:57:41 <Ian> ...we had 1000s of users who wanted to purchase these NFTs. So we published a whitelist.
23:57:52 <Ian> ...and that cost multiple thousands of USD.
23:58:07 <Ian> ...we learned that doing this blockchain game on Ethereum would become untenable.
23:58:29 <Ian> ...we moved away from Ethereum as a result and moved to Polygon.
23:58:50 <Ian> ..Polygon is a side chain; didn't have the transactional fees that came with Ethereum.
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23:59:55 <Ian> Erik: The movement is from web2 video games to web3 video games
00:00:23 <Ian> ...there are studios that are investing in and incorporating blockchain components in their games
00:00:30 <Ian> ...why would they do that?
00:00:55 <Ian> ...the argument is that the items inside these games -- the economies in these games -- live in the games and that's it.
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00:01:20 <Ian> ...one advantage of using blockchain is that you can itemize each piece in the inventory (e.g., a new helmet or skin)
00:01:40 <Ian> ...can be extracted from the game and possibly ported to another game as an NFT
00:01:44 <jyasskin> q?
00:01:45 <Ian> ...or sell it
00:02:08 <Ian> ack dem
00:02:16 <Ian> ack lak
00:02:45 <Ian> AlexL: My question was going to be "what game mechanics need blockchain?" You may have answered my question. Games existed before blockchain.
00:02:49 <jyasskin> q+ to ask concretely what web standards would be needed to help this
00:02:58 <Ian> ...is it necessary for the game to run on the blockchain?
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00:03:16 <Ian> Erik: You don't need to run the game on the blockchain; the economy part is on the blockchain (the inventory). It's a hybrid model.
00:03:59 <Ian> ...there are some people who are suspect due to some scams in this space
00:04:05 <Ian> q?
00:04:32 <Ian> Erik: There are other aspects to games beyond the items. For example, in World of Warcraft, if you want to level up you pay.
00:04:53 <Ian> ...and those payments involve transaction fees.
00:05:23 <Ian> ack Chi
00:05:28 <Ian> ack Uch
00:05:38 <Ian> Uchi: I wanted to add my view of Web3 and from a standards perspective.
00:06:15 <Ian> ...I think a connection between Web3 and Web2 includes DIDs and VCs.
00:06:57 <Ian> ...and Interledger protocol
00:07:50 <Ian> ...I see an opportunity to discuss standards in this space
00:08:31 <Ian> erik: Work on "Web5" also seems relevant
00:08:45 <Ian> ack jy
00:08:45 <Zakim> jyasskin, you wanted to ask concretely what web standards would be needed to help this
00:09:03 <Ian> jyasskin: What standards do you think are relevant here, and which need to be implemented in browsers?
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00:09:29 <Ian> Erik: WebRTC ; signaling
00:09:56 <Ian> ...I would also agree with Uchi's mention of DID, VC
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00:11:51 <Karen> scribenick: Karen
00:11:51 <Karen> IJ: your game inventory example was helpful
00:11:51 <Karen> ...you can export/import these assets into other contexts
00:11:51 <Karen> ...in designing a game, were there other browser capabilities that you needed
00:12:04 <Karen> ...or do you leverage the browser for most elements of game, and put other elements into blockchain
00:12:13 <Karen> ...in your experience, what was the experience?
00:12:17 <Karen> scribenick: Ian
00:12:33 <Ian> Erik: We did not have guidance on how to do this hybrid thing securely, mitigate potential attacks.
00:12:52 <pchampin> q+
00:13:12 <Ian> Erik: We used existing Web2 for UI and linked it to blockchain via some decentralized and some centralized APIs.
00:13:38 <jyasskin> q+ to mention web3.js
00:14:14 <Ian> Erik: We may not need more standards; we may have more questions and need to learn
00:14:51 <Ian> ack pch
00:15:23 <Ian> pchampin: I heard here a definition of Web3 as glue between Web as we know it and blockchain...that's different from what I've read.
00:15:43 <Ian> ...what I've read is that the web as we know it is broken and not decentralized enough; so let's throw it away and create new technology.
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00:16:16 <Ian> Erik: If I may, I think there was a "lofty aspiration" of Web3 initially, but that's not what's happened in practice.
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00:16:26 <Ian> ...nearly every form of Web3 app has some centralization tied to it.
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00:17:02 <gkellogg> q+ to suggest we move on from using Web3 as a term
00:17:03 <Ian> ack jyasskin
00:17:03 <Zakim> jyasskin, you wanted to mention web3.js
00:17:19 <Ian> jyasskin: One area of seen for web browser capability is to move web3.js into the browser.
00:17:42 <Ian> ...I would be hesitant to do that as a browser vendor if there is unclear governance and lots of fraud. How do we do this ethically?
00:18:05 <Ian> Erik: I agree it will be difficult to move capabilities into the browser until we have more user protections.
00:18:12 <cel> regarding the more lofty web3: https://fosdem.org/2022/schedule/track/web3_infrastructure/ https://jaygraber.medium.com/web3-is-self-certifying-9dad77fd8d81
00:18:39 <Ian> Karl: I think technology is outpacing both user understanding and regulation.
00:20:17 <Ian> ...I think of Web3 as enabling new business models.
00:20:31 <Ian> ...others I think see it as an opportunity to stake a claim in an emerging Metaverse.
00:20:51 <Ian> ...I think there will continue to be evolution.
00:20:52 <javadch> q+
00:21:08 <Ian> jyasskin: What does blockchain get us? Why not use simpler technology?
00:21:41 <Ian> Karl: Blockchain makes settlement faster, cheaper and more secure.
00:22:37 <Ian> Erik: A lot of blockchains have learned from the mistakes of Ethereum. Fees are going down.
00:23:04 <Ian> ack gk
00:23:05 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to suggest we move on from using Web3 as a term
00:23:18 <Ian> gkellogg: I want to suggest that the community use another term besides Web3.
00:23:39 <Ian> ..it's not an inclusive term, or may be understood that way
00:23:43 <phila> +1 to gkellogg
00:23:59 <Ian> gkellogg: There's not a linear progression.
00:24:07 <Ian> ...maybe "blockchainweb"
00:24:27 <phila> q+
00:24:29 <Ian> ack javadch
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00:25:00 <Ian> javadch: There are other related techs like Immersive that have a browser element but also ties to Web3
00:25:10 <Ian> q?
00:25:29 <Ian> Erik: I think the overlap between Web3 and the Metaverse will become more prolific
00:26:16 <Ian> ...how do economies work among avatars in a digital world?
00:26:22 <Ian> q?
00:26:40 <phila> q-
00:27:27 <Ian> Ian: Next steps?
00:27:27 <jyasskin> Tantek mentioned https://indieweb.org/Web_3.0 as a history of uses of "Web 3"
00:27:51 <Ian> Erik: This breakout was just a starting point for thinking about this and standards.
00:28:18 <gkellogg> +1 to Tantek for finding the history of Web3
00:28:51 <Ian> Ian: Any interest in a CG?
00:29:08 <Ian> Erik: It would be of interest to me (cf. ORTC->WebRTC)
00:29:11 <Ian> q?
00:29:20 <Uchi> q+
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00:30:21 <Ian> Ivan: Suppose we solve the concern about security and scamming; does it make sense to standardize an API to blockchain when there are new blockchains minted every day?
00:30:39 <Ian> ack Chi
00:30:49 <Ian> Uchi: I wanted to give a +1 to a CG.
00:31:28 <Ian> Erik: Regarding Ivan's question, I think there are technologies that had many options that ended up in one standard.
00:31:55 <Ian> Ivan: What about ILP?
00:32:30 <Ian> AlexL: Interledger only deals with the value stored in ledgers, not the information.
00:32:42 <Ian> ...you need to think about blockchain as 2 things.
00:32:49 <Ian> ...it's "CRUD" without the "UD"
00:33:00 <Ian> ...there are valid use cases for "CR" only such as key registries.
00:33:11 <Ian> ...some of these blockchains store value with a coin or token.
00:33:22 <Ian> ...ILP deals with moving the value.
00:33:57 <Ian> ...I don't think of ILP as  bridging blockchains for data...ILP is just for bridging ledgers (accounts that store value)
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00:34:27 <jyasskin> q+ to ask snakenation how we can help
00:35:00 <Ian> jyasskin: I think that web3.js is ethereum based, so would only scale so far.
00:35:40 <Ian> ack jyasskin
00:35:40 <Zakim> jyasskin, you wanted to ask snakenation how we can help
00:35:52 <Ian> jyasskin: It sounds like you are using Web3 to let people buy things from artists.
00:35:58 <Ian> ack Uchi
00:36:22 <Ian> jyasskin: The people reading posts provide money, platform provides money, etc.
00:36:37 <Ian> ..that's much more connected to Interledger than to the more general writing data to Ethereum.
00:37:05 <Ian> Karl: We need smart contracts as well
00:37:16 <Ian> jyasskin: How can browsers help you?
00:37:22 <Ian> Karl: We're exploring that now.
00:37:32 <Ian> ...for example, we are fully mobile.
00:37:39 <Ian> ...so part of the answer is in PWAs.
00:38:07 <Ian> Erik: Thank you all.
00:38:26 <Ian> ...there are probably a handful of blue chip blockchains.
00:38:42 <Ian> ...most of the daily new ones are derivative of the blue chip ones.
00:38:49 <Ian> Karl: +1 to the CG
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02:28:33 <Creole_Queen> Hi
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16:21:46 <cel> RRSAgent, bye
16:21:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items