14:10:03 RRSAgent has joined #web-monetization 14:10:03 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-web-monetization-irc 14:10:05 Zakim has joined #web-monetization 14:14:12 laka has joined #web-monetization 14:14:38 laka_ has joined #web-monetization 14:15:30 Meeting: Web Monetization - TPAC 2022 breakout 14:15:32 Chair: Alex_Lakatos 14:15:34 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/96948fa8-77ca-4f54-b0ba-99e04066ac8e#agenda 14:15:36 RRSAgent, make log public 14:15:38 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 14:19:04 RRSAgent, stay 14:19:06 Zakim, stay 14:19:06 I don't understand 'stay', dom 15:14:58 dom has joined #web-monetization 16:13:29 agenda+ breakout 17:11:50 laka has joined #web-monetization 17:41:51 laka has joined #web-monetization 17:54:36 laka has joined #web-monetization 18:15:49 dom has joined #web-monetization 18:18:11 Uchi has joined #web-monetization 18:18:13 smcgruer_[EST] has joined #web-monetization 18:20:51 rrr has joined #web-monetization 18:22:30 npdoty has joined #web-monetization 18:24:36 Ian has joined #web-monetization 18:24:54 present+ 18:26:08 present+ Uchi_Uchibeke 18:26:49 takuya has joined #web-monetization 18:27:44 I was late to join. are we scribing here or somewhere else? 18:28:07 here, please 18:28:33 present+ 18:28:39 scribenick: npdoty 18:28:49 Topic: Web Monetization API 18:29:13 events triggered when monetization payment is received, or when the link element is loaded 18:29:31 Alex: replaced tag with tag for in the new Web monetization spec 18:30:22 Alex: properties cover what amount and currency the payment was 18:31:01 ... URL to the wallet to verify the incoming payment, or a receipt string for Interledger 18:31:48 ... shipped test implementation for Coil extension, new versions to support these new features, but backward compatible 18:32:04 ... work is in wicg/webmonetization github 18:32:24 ... have received some feedback, but would like more feedback and see potential browser implementation 18:32:55 ... a mobile browser native implementation (Puma), but desktop browsers just have browser extensions at the moment 18:33:39 ... adoption on websites growing, up to 0.02% of sites in a crawl (web almanac) 18:34:57 ... easy to make payment within one bank, or within banks that have a system to talk to each other. across different banks, there is high overhead (a human has to approve) 18:35:07 ... small, continuous payments is infeasible 18:35:33 ... credit card networks also not effective for this, especially for receiving small payments 18:36:01 ... Interledger proposes a way to represent money in any type of account 18:36:19 ... modeled on TCP/IP, but losing money is not as acceptable as losing packets 18:36:31 McCool has joined #web-monetization 18:36:34 present+ Michael_McCool 18:37:13 ... 'ledger' is anything that stores transactions of value, but not intended to mean the crypto use of that term 18:37:30 ... your Starbucks loyalty card is one of the largest ledgers in the world :) 18:38:17 ... packetizes payments, but doesn't care about the currency or scale 18:38:46 ... no minimum transaction size 18:40:15 David: are there implementation roadblocks to adopting ILP? because of the binary protocol, or not based on some existing system 18:40:59 Alex: working on application-layer protocol, Open Payments, REST APIs, so that you don't have to understand the binary/networking protocol 18:41:39 David: some networks only allow HTTP traffic. wouldn't want to SSH tunnel to get around barriers in a hotel network 18:41:51 q+ 18:42:52 Alex: Interledger protocol has to have a lot of options to work with so many different ledgers. but that makes it complex, need Web Monetization to be something simpler 18:43:03 ... want to see how Web Monetization can happen in browsers 18:43:09 ack McCool 18:43:28 McCool: could this be integrated with WebSockets? 18:43:54 Alex: can be run over websockets, but requires converting into binary format 18:44:07 McCool: connections to verifiable credentials/did? 18:44:27 Alex: addressing -- URLs feel natural for that 18:44:46 ... every ledger will have different requirements for identity and credentials 18:47:20 David: counterparties are always known. if you're willing to pay, you are identifier to your payment provider, and that information is confirmed? 18:47:51 ... you don't need to establish the payer's identity at the moment of the page load 18:48:33 Alex: but privacy protection, the receiver does not know who the sender is 18:50:24 Alex: Coil decreases rate of streaming payments so that payments continue and don't run out 18:50:49 q+ on streaming vs other kinds of transactions 18:51:49 Alex: trust the browser to break up the funds and send it to the right parties that the user wants 18:52:36 ack npdoty 18:52:36 npdoty, you wanted to comment on streaming vs other kinds of transactions 18:52:39 npdoty: Can this be used for non-time-based activity? 18:52:41 Alex: Yes 18:52:52 ...it's designed for both streaming and chunks 18:54:02 npdoty: Is this intended to replace PR API / PH ? 18:54:10 Alex: It's a complement. 18:55:10 npdoty: I can see some activities gated on payment "You can't get this until I have confirmed receipt of money"? 18:55:15 Alex: You get a receipt so you can verify a payment 18:55:43 ...you still have to do work to verify the payment depending on what's in the payment 18:57:10 ...I think pages will use both payment handlers and Micropayments depending on size of payments 18:57:54 ...a byproduct of using ILP is currency conversion 18:58:56 ..when value hops to a network that can do the currency conversion, the amount can be deposited in one currency and then sent out in another currency. 18:59:11 ...networks are incentivized to keep conversion fees low (competition with other networks) 18:59:52 Steven: (from Google Chrome payments team) how should web monetization providers integrate with the browser? 19:00:27 Alex: extensions might be a way to do that. configuration of a payment provider could be done with a payment extension 19:01:06 ... if I'm a provider for this user, this is how I would want payments to work 19:01:46 Steven: dangers of browser extensions. if there's a malicious payment provider that convinces a user to install an extension, could that malicious provider then track the user's online activity? 19:02:29 Alex: envision a different kind of extension, like themes. the payment provider shouldn't have access to the page, leave it to the browser to packetize the money and distribute it 19:02:44 ... wouldn't want to give up the privacy aspect, even for legitimate providers 19:03:50 alex: responsibility of the browser to let the user decide how much payment goes where 19:04:05 ... payment provider has lost the ability to track where the payment has gone 19:04:39 smcgruer: the question is whether the browser wants to maintain the complex configuration of how the user wants to distribute funds 19:06:06 smcgruer: for tips or soft/hard paywalls, how can the page specify a minimum amount of money necessary for this? 19:06:29 ... the page has some content in the page saying "this needs a dollar" and the user clicks it 19:07:17 alex: uses HTML to visibly represent that it needs a dollar 19:07:40 ... and then user interacts with the extension, to give a dollar with the site that I'm currently on 19:08:12 Ian: what's the UX to get to the extension when the user clicks a button in the HTML that they want to pay 19:08:26 Alex: no communication between the page and the extension, because it would break the privacy requirements 19:10:12 Ian: a payment handler for web monetization could have the browser help create a modal when you click a button in the page 19:11:26 Alex: think it should be more user-initiated. if you want a direct transaction, you could use Payment Handler 19:11:50 smcgruer: often content creators will give a thank you in response to tips, not exactly payment for content 19:12:45 alex: API is simplified in order to provide a lot of use cases, but Coil just handles the streaming use case. would like to see more providers that explore multiple use cases 19:13:06 Karl: for enterprise cases, or a media network, or a celebrity 19:13:21 ... brands that want to fund sponsored posts 19:13:54 ... not just the individual user, but how does this work for organizations getting millions or billions of views? 19:14:17 alex: haven't thought much about that 19:14:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-web-monetization-minutes.html Ian 19:14:56 Alex: at mozfest, Coil gave out a large sum, and then individuals could monetize, give tips for their favorite sessions 19:15:37 ... not sure how that would work for Beyonce. turning off monetization for a little while, and then making it private after the first X views 19:15:58 s/Beyonce/Beyoncé/ 19:16:24 @@@: for small publishers and bloggers, how easy would it be for them to monetize their content? 19:16:51 ... what is your feeling for the future, 5 years? 19:17:19 alex: as a small publisher, I make money on a computer jokes website 19:17:35 ... don't have a lot of time to work on gated content, just drop the meta tag on my page 19:18:31 ... Coil has maybe just 5,000 monetization users, but still made £30 last year 19:20:54 alex: user adoption necessary for it to make progress 19:21:13 ... allowing anyone to become their own monetization provider could make a big difference 19:22:00 ... testing with Firefox was extremely useful for the spec/design process 19:22:32 ... Grant for the Web tests of people using the functionality has also explored genuine use cases, more than just a single document 19:22:46 ... revenue sharing is important, and unlikely to ever be a fair split 19:23:00 ... in the next year, we want more monetization providers, and test it out in a browser 19:23:34 Alex: currently a CG, but would love to see a WG if there's support 19:23:42 ... Friday session at 12:30 at TPAC 19:24:17 likely hybrid attendance/support 19:26:10 [continued conversation of different use cases, or splitting monetization, but scribe isn't keeping up] 19:26:30 smcgruer: what about iframes? 19:26:56 alex: currently an even split of iframes that support monetization, but the top-level page can determine whether iframes are allowed 19:27:16 ... you as the page creator decide what gets monetized 19:27:53 smcgruer: can't fund this directly right now, but Chromium is open source and would like to see proposals and implementations 19:28:16 alex: have funding to support it, but need someone with the experience and expertise in the browsers 19:28:51 ... see how it would work if it *were* in the browser, even if it's not immediately going to end up in Chrome 19:30:14 smcgruer: interesting question is how much the browser is responsible for or how they handle it 19:31:30 alex: could have a web monetization server for browsers to call out to, but would be a big piece of infrastructure 19:32:21 karl: excited, all in about implementation. can start with simple use cases and then take it to talent. young creators use the Web so much. monetization should attract attention the way that NFTs did 19:32:49 ... for artists to be able to say to people on the Web, this is how you can be part of our art or community 19:33:14 ... talent who are streaming tons of views, but not getting the monetization 19:33:37 ... collegiate sports as well 19:34:27 ... should be simple enough for easy adoption, by the small site and by the consumer 19:34:47 ... could donate on a fraction of the monetization for a special event, etc. 19:34:56 ... a way to add another layer of revenue to their existing models 19:35:36 ... proof of concepts to try out with a publisher or with talent 19:36:21 alex: talking with lots of publishers in the news space, like when newspapers buy articles from other journalism organizations 19:36:40 ... could have payments split automatically between the nytimes and the smaller org 19:39:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:39:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-web-monetization-minutes.html npdoty 20:15:05 dom has joined #web-monetization 20:30:10 dom has joined #web-monetization 20:39:24 laka has joined #web-monetization 20:42:28 laka_ has joined #web-monetization 21:03:22 laka has joined #web-monetization 21:07:02 dom__ has joined #web-monetization 21:51:42 laka has joined #web-monetization 21:52:59 dom has joined #web-monetization 22:08:16 Ian has left #web-monetization 22:30:05 laka has joined #web-monetization 22:34:26 laka has joined #web-monetization 22:56:06 laka has joined #web-monetization 23:14:21 laka has joined #web-monetization 23:22:25 dom has joined #web-monetization 23:32:35 laka has joined #web-monetization 23:37:28 laka has joined #web-monetization 00:05:27 laka has joined #web-monetization 00:37:10 laka has joined #web-monetization 01:06:15 laka has joined #web-monetization 01:09:00 laka has joined #web-monetization 01:13:08 laka_ has joined #web-monetization 21:14:55 dom has joined #web-monetization 22:03:21 RRSAgent, bye 22:03:21 I see no action items