IRC log of sustainability on 2022-09-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:08:41 [RRSAgent]
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14:08:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:08:43 [Zakim]
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14:13:42 [dom]
Meeting: Sustainability for the Web and W3C - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:13:46 [dom]
Chair: Nick_Doty, Tantek_Çelik
14:13:48 [dom]
14:13:50 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:13:52 [dom]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:18:34 [dom]
RRSAgent, stay
14:18:36 [dom]
Zakim, stay
14:18:36 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'stay', dom
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agenda+ breakout
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22:02:16 [cpn]
Meeting: Sustainability
22:02:19 [AramZS]
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22:02:22 [npd]
22:02:23 [cpn]
Present+ Chris_Needham
22:02:29 [AramZS]
22:02:31 [cpn]
scribe+ yoav
22:02:34 [mprorock]
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22:02:47 [Judy]
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22:02:48 [tzviya]
Date: 2022-09-14
22:02:52 [tidoust]
22:03:00 [igarashi]
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22:03:00 [yoav]
Nick: important ans timely topic
22:03:13 [cpn]
Present+ Yoav_Weiss, Mike_Prorock, Jake_Holland, Nick_Doty, Tantek_Celik, Tzivya_Siegman
22:03:19 [igarashi]
22:03:55 [Judy]
22:04:07 [spectranaut_]
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22:04:16 [yoav]
... background in privacy, but this is an urgent topic. Want to learn and see how we can apply to web standards
22:04:32 [yoav]
... outlined goals we could work on as a community
22:04:32 [cpn]
Present+ Tim_Frick, Alex_Dawson
22:04:47 [yoav]
... ientified areas for potential standard work and cover ongoing work
22:04:52 [cpn]
Present+ Dan_Druta
22:05:05 [yoav]
... considering metrics that would enable other measures to take effects
22:05:22 [yoav]
... Also measure the impact of the W3C meetings themseleves
22:05:40 [yoav]
... wanted to talk about working mode about how we talk about sustainability in W3C
22:05:48 [yoav]
maybe horizontal reviews
22:06:05 [yoav]
... A topic that has come up at multiple meetings and TPACs
22:06:20 [yoav]
tantek: one of Mozilla env champions
22:06:40 [yoav]
... been 3 years since TPAC 2019, some discussions there
22:06:49 [yoav]
... had an AC meeting session this past spring
22:06:50 [npd]
yes! remote meetings has been such a promising way to mitigate our direct carbon emissions impacts
22:06:55 [yoav]
... virtual session in 2021
22:07:02 [cpn]
Present+ Phil_Archer
22:07:11 [yoav]
... The TAG has included sustainability as a core principle
22:07:24 [yoav]
... Moving forward with the assumption of sustainability being a principle
22:07:34 [yoav]
... If folks want to argue, there's the TAG issue
22:07:40 [cel]
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22:07:41 [cpn]
Present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
22:08:00 [yoav]
... Created sustainability CG to create a culture and process of horizontal review
22:08:14 [tantek]
22:08:23 [jholland]
22:08:23 [Judy]
22:08:36 [DanD]
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22:08:38 [yoav]
... In addition to horizontal review, want to allow folks to talk about our biggest impact
22:08:50 [yoav]
... Need prioritization, so wanted to ask the group
22:08:52 [yoav]
22:09:04 [jgraham]
22:09:08 [tzviya]
q+ to talk about impact
22:09:17 [npd]
ack jholland
22:09:21 [Cornelius]
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22:09:23 [cel]
22:09:26 [yoav]
jholland: multicast CG which has sustainability implications
22:09:33 [phila]
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22:09:36 [mprorock]
22:09:43 [yoav]
... one of the motivating factors in adopting multicast
22:09:51 [yoav]
... BBC report about network consumption
22:10:02 [yoav]
... Can address a lot of that with multicast
22:10:11 [yoav]
... Would be great for it to get more attention
22:10:26 [DanD_]
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22:10:34 [yoav]
... large events take 10Ks servers to serve, and protocols can cut that down significantly
22:10:37 [DanD_]
22:10:47 [yoav]
... RE the notion of tracking our own impact
22:11:07 [yoav]
... worthwhile to build models, but the impact of the web can be more effective
22:11:30 [yoav]
... don't want to discourage people from flying here, if it solves the broader problem
22:11:34 [lgombos_____]
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22:11:37 [jholland]
22:11:38 [yoav]
... need to be explicit about that
22:11:38 [AramZS]
q+ to talk about the need to id effective mitigation strategies
22:11:41 [tantek]
22:12:00 [yoav]
Nick_Doty: Our own emissions is not a substitute to other work
22:12:10 [yoav]
jholland: need to not be distracted
22:12:41 [yoav]
judy: few quick comments: was a session on sustainability in Q2
22:13:15 [yoav]
... we had a strnger response from membership than any other AC committee
22:13:22 [Jay]
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22:13:26 [cpn]
s/in Q2/at the W3C AC meeting in Q2/
22:13:28 [yoav]
... interest distributed across different topics
22:13:36 [Jay]
22:14:04 [yoav]
... own emissions wasn't covered by the AC
22:14:17 [tantek]
q+ to propose that the Sustainability CG work in public by default, as well as sustainability at W3C in general, and that we provide that request to the AB to make that happen on our behalf
22:14:34 [yoav]
... The hybrid meeting format can be used and help other orgs reduce their emissions
22:15:09 [yoav]
... efficiency of standards - heard impressive stats of CO2 that can be saved
22:15:17 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
22:15:17 [Jay]
22:15:22 [Judy]
ack judy
22:15:34 [AramZS]
Alex looks like he wants to queue but I don't remember how to queue someone else?
22:15:41 [Judy]
q+ Alex
22:15:51 [gendler]
22:15:52 [tantek]
ack yoav
22:15:52 [cpn]
yoav: I'm co-chair of Web Perf WG. I've thought about what are the lines connecting web performance and sustainability
22:15:58 [tantek]
Zakim, allow each speaker 2 minutes
22:15:58 [Zakim]
ok, tantek
22:16:04 [cpn]
... Looking at emissions, and different aspects of CO2 emission
22:16:15 [cpn]
... a lot of it is consuption on the device, e.g., less JavaScript
22:16:24 [tzviya]
+1 to yoav
22:16:26 [cpn]
... another part is people replacing device because they're too slow
22:16:36 [AramZS]
Thanks Judy, can you let him know via Zoom chat mby? I assume he isn't on here.
22:16:51 [jholland]
22:17:12 [cpn]
... one thing missing is everything server side. There's no way for servers to tell us how much energy was used. Could we make some voluntary standard, and later some enforcement mechanism
22:17:30 [cpn]
npdoty: Is that something clients may potentially want to expose?
22:18:05 [cpn]
yoav: Haven't brought it up in Web Perf WG, hope to this week. It could be interesting for clients to surface, e.g., a sustainability mode, similar to battery saving mode
22:18:23 [tantek]
22:18:33 [jholland]
responding to yoav: the comments about developing server tracking of impact reminded me of which has started doing some work in this direction
22:18:37 [cpn]
tantek: We're going to have to liaise with other groups. We have a public wiki page, feel free to add liaison opportunities
22:18:43 [tantek]
22:18:47 [tantek]
ack jgraham
22:19:03 [jholland]
22:19:03 [yoav]
jgraham: speaking for myself. Informal chat about CO2 emissions
22:19:27 [phila]
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22:19:38 [yoav]
... improving the web can save a fraction of a percent
22:19:57 [yoav]
... reducing carbon emissions is already incentivized
22:20:03 [mprorock]
22:20:28 [yoav]
... browsers gotten faster and more energy efficient, but sites got slower
22:20:47 [yoav]
... one of the problems is that efficiency is eaten by more content
22:21:04 [npd]
22:21:09 [yoav]
... smartphones are faster than they were, and every year total emissions of IT keep growing
22:21:14 [mprorock]
22:21:25 [phila]
q+ to talk about incentives
22:21:28 [yoav]
... the scale of the problem requires more than simple choices and optimizations
22:21:59 [yoav]
... if we can't get the web running on renewable/nuclear power, than any of the other things won't work
22:22:08 [Philip]
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22:22:20 [yoav]
... pretty clear how to make electricity sustainable
22:22:57 [yoav]
... web has to run on renewable energy
22:23:11 [yoav]
... anything less than doesn't support the solutions
22:23:28 [yoav]
... we do not know how to make flying sustainable
22:23:28 [tantek]
22:23:43 [phila]
22:24:15 [yoav]
... we don't know that video calls can replace flying. Don't know if this is something the W3C should have an opinion on this
22:24:28 [yoav]
... dominated by system effects and we need to look at those
22:24:36 [Philip]
22:24:39 [tantek]
ack tzviya
22:24:39 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to talk about impact
22:25:11 [yoav]
tzviya: in terms of impact, we've heard about floors and ceilings in the past RE compliance
22:25:34 [yoav]
... Need to have something obtainable - e.g. only renewables may be hard to get to
22:25:50 [yoav]
... We can talk about how this improves performance and a11y
22:26:07 [yoav]
... horizontal review doesn't work unless it's something people implement themselves
22:26:11 [tantek]
22:26:15 [tantek]
ack mprorock
22:26:45 [yoav]
mprorock: work directly in sustainability. measure data on this
22:26:58 [yoav]
... confirm scientifically a lot
22:27:13 [yoav]
... Can do a lot of feel-good things, or tackle the real world problems
22:27:30 [yoav]
... Maybe can start help define how to describe the data for that
22:27:51 [yoav]
... customers in agriculture - how can we measure pesticide, gas, etc
22:28:10 [yoav]
... if we can do that in a standardized way and get everyone on board, can save 20%
22:28:34 [yoav]
... past the point of no return, we'll face consequences
22:28:51 [tantek]
22:28:56 [yoav]
... we can find ways to tie verifiable creds and enable real people mitigate real impact
22:29:20 [yoav]
... can we facilitate people that actually solve this problem
22:29:21 [tantek]
ack DanD_
22:29:45 [yoav]
DanD_: thrown off by the diff between title and conversation
22:30:08 [yoav]
... relying on the UN 17 goals. You're talking about number 13
22:30:15 [phila]
q+ to talk about certification
22:30:21 [yoav]
... would be useful to align to those targets
22:30:36 [AramZS]
22:30:52 [mprorock]
+1 aram
22:30:53 [yoav]
... sustainability goals are beyond energy efficiency
22:31:44 [npd]
ack aram
22:31:44 [Zakim]
AramZS, you wanted to talk about the need to id effective mitigation strategies
22:32:06 [yoav]
AramZS: lot of desire to visibly do something about this on the brand level
22:32:13 [npd]
I also think we could consider other sustainability goals too! energy efficiency and climate change is an urgent need, but doesn't need to be the only topic we discuss, if there is interest in doing that work
22:32:19 [yoav]
... general goal to demonstrate sustainability
22:32:28 [yoav]
... clear interest in spending money on this desire
22:32:45 [yoav]
... big concern - a lot of room for charlatans to step in
22:32:59 [yoav]
... not a sustainability person, so can't assess solutions
22:33:04 [yoav]
... need good metrics
22:33:18 [mprorock]
+1 judy
22:33:27 [yoav]
... every measurement framework needs a solutions framework - generate a report
22:33:38 [phila]
q+ to talk about DPPs
22:33:53 [yoav]
... A lot of the solutions are focused on carbon credits or planting trees
22:34:09 [yoav]
... doesn't seem to be an effective way to go
22:34:14 [spectranaut_]
22:34:27 [yoav]
... In ad tech, there's a lot of data we could use and say that a solution doesn't help
22:34:37 [npd]
ack tantek (IRC)
22:34:48 [tantek]
ack tantek
22:34:48 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to propose that the Sustainability CG work in public by default, as well as sustainability at W3C in general, and that we provide that request to the AB to make
22:34:51 [Zakim]
... that happen on our behalf
22:34:53 [yoav]
tantek: proposal - wanted to get a series of next steps
22:34:56 [AramZS]
For those interested, here's my opening research into carbon offsets
22:35:25 [yoav]
... agree to work in public by default - want to make a request to the AB to make that happen
22:35:28 [Judy]
22:35:33 [tzviya]
22:35:39 [mprorock]
22:35:42 [yoav]
22:35:46 [annette_g]
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22:35:47 [tantek]
Proposed: Sustainability CG work in public by default, as well as sustainability at W3C in general, and that we provide that request to the AB to make
22:36:01 [spectranaut_]
22:36:02 [jholland]
22:36:03 [cpn]
22:36:06 [gendler]
22:36:06 [phila]
22:36:07 [Cornelius]
22:36:08 [Jay]
22:36:09 [annette_g]
22:36:13 [annette_g]
22:36:19 [tantek]
Resolved: Sustainability CG work in public by default, as well as sustainability at W3C in general, and that we provide that request to the AB to make
22:36:48 [yoav]
... at the AC open session, ethical web principles say "the web must do no harm"
22:36:54 [npd]
22:36:57 [yoav]
... Need to not make the problem worse
22:37:04 [Jay]
ack me
22:37:53 [tantek]
per Tess's presentation earlier today, first the web must not do harm
22:38:02 [yoav]
Jay: very complex problem. we consume a lot of energy
22:38:20 [yoav]
... may be out of scope for W3C activity
22:38:59 [yoav]
... very difficult to predict energy impact
22:39:28 [tantek]
q+ to note that our individual or even group actions can only do so much, to have the biggest impact from a systems perspective we need collective action including political advocacy, and ask how can we consider our work here in that larger context?
22:39:39 [tantek]
ack Alex
22:40:08 [ivan]
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22:40:32 [yoav]
Alex: sustainability CG. when people look at variables that impact, we don't have a framework that counts all the variables that cover the end-to-end journey
22:40:36 [AramZS]
Is the group he's referring to ?
22:41:19 [ivan]
22:41:19 [yoav]
... user pathway and developers. Got general idea about how much CO2 is used, but never had a more global idea about looking into all the different variables
22:41:31 [yoav]
... and here are the ones that we need to actually look in to
22:41:42 [yoav]
... Don't know where our blind spots are
22:41:49 [tantek]
22:42:04 [yoav]
... need to build a map of the things we need to take into account
22:42:21 [tantek]
ack gendler
22:42:24 [yoav]
22:43:06 [yoav]
gendler: news corp is new to the W3C. mostly consumers of deliverables
22:43:53 [AramZS]
+1 on a principles document being really useful as a starting document
22:43:54 [jgraham]
+1 to looking at policy/principles
22:43:57 [yoav]
... principles documents really assist in pushing initiatives in corps. I propose a principles document which will really help CEOs understanding the problem
22:44:03 [mprorock]
22:44:12 [yoav]
... principled writing helps make stronger internal pitches
22:44:14 [tzviya]
+1 to a principles (and I think mprorock needs to help write it ;)
22:44:20 [tantek]
22:44:24 [tantek]
ack phila
22:44:24 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about certification and to talk about DPPs
22:45:01 [yoav]
phila: working with national bodies to put data on product conformance
22:45:30 [yoav]
... in the EU, all products have tracability to make sure where they come from
22:45:43 [yoav]
... both are about data being presented to end users
22:45:54 [yoav]
... we're not good at exposing data to people
22:46:06 [yoav]
... commercial world provides information about their stuff
22:46:12 [gendler]
Adding for the record (forgive my formatting if I'm doing this wrong), I intended to point out that both Ethical Web Principles and ML Ethics Principles documents have been used to make internal use cases at NC as rationale for hoping for a similar sustainability document.
22:46:24 [yoav]
... more impact if we help people see what damage their consumer goods are doing
22:46:24 [mprorock]
+1 phila
22:46:37 [tantek]
22:46:42 [yoav]
... datasphere is not recognizable
22:46:43 [tantek]
ack spectranaut_
22:46:52 [yoav]
... browsers should recognize
22:47:24 [yoav]
spectranaut_: excited that this is a topic of conversation. Igalia is trying to create a positive impact on env
22:47:50 [yoav]
... struggling with questions, with no answers, but a bunch of Igalians would love to help
22:48:05 [tantek]
22:48:06 [yoav]
... fun to work on concrete stuff
22:48:07 [ivan]
22:48:15 [tantek]
ack tantek
22:48:16 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to note that our individual or even group actions can only do so much, to have the biggest impact from a systems perspective we need collective action including
22:48:16 [Zakim]
... political advocacy, and ask how can we consider our work here in that larger context?
22:48:54 [yoav]
tantek: talked about what we can do individually to prevent more harm. but so much we can do as individuals
22:49:00 [Judy]
22:49:07 [yoav]
... gonna need collective action beyond W3C
22:49:34 [tantek]
22:49:39 [yoav]
... wanted to check motivation to do such collective action, including political action
22:49:39 [tantek]
ack Judy
22:49:47 [mprorock]
22:50:21 [yoav]
Judy: Think it's almost a myth that we can't do policy work. If you do good work, people will come
22:50:28 [spectranaut_]
present+ valerie_young
22:50:41 [yoav]
... several orgs try to come up with metrics. Things W3C could do to facilitate
22:50:58 [tantek]
22:51:02 [tantek]
ack mprorock
22:51:12 [phila]
22:51:46 [yoav]
mprorock: work often on the policy side. If we can bring something concrete to the table - e.g. connect directly to the end users
22:51:54 [Jay]
22:51:54 [yoav]
... deeply rooted in what the W3C is
22:52:16 [yoav]
tantek: also connects to principles
22:52:38 [Judy]
s/do to facilitate/do to facilitate... but possibly if one jumps ahead too early on that, before having something good to point to, might not land so well
22:52:40 [yoav]
mprorock: distributed the principles docs across and they were well received
22:53:19 [yoav]
tantek: technologies to reduce energy usage
22:53:28 [yoav]
... w3c impact on its operations
22:53:36 [yoav]
... measurement
22:53:42 [yoav]
... system effects
22:53:48 [yoav]
... horizontal review
22:53:55 [mprorock]
Can we ensure use of invited experts, for instance from the national labs?
22:54:08 [yoav]
... Principles
22:54:20 [tantek]
22:54:47 [yoav]
ivan: does measurement cover what mprorock and phila talked about?
22:54:54 [annette_g]
q+ to respond to mprorock's mention of national labs
22:55:01 [yoav]
tantek: yes
22:55:03 [tantek]
ack annette_g
22:55:03 [Zakim]
annette_g, you wanted to respond to mprorock's mention of national labs
22:55:25 [phila]
22:55:25 [mprorock]
22:55:33 [yoav]
annette_g: not an expert, but plenty people at the national labs are. Would see if someone is interested
22:55:39 [phila]
22:55:41 [mprorock]
22:56:20 [yoav]
tantek: wanted to capture who's interested in any of the areas
22:56:27 [tantek]
tantek: [system effects][horizontal review][principles]
22:56:32 [Judy]
[JudyB: I will continue working on scalability of a good hybrid meetings solution]
22:56:36 [jgraham]
jgraham: [Principles][system effects]
22:57:03 [cpn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:57:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate cpn
22:57:07 [cpn]
rrsagent, make log public
22:57:12 [jholland]
[jholland: technologies to reduce energy usage, measurement]
22:57:31 [phila]
RRSAgent, make logs public
22:57:39 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:57:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
22:57:46 [mprorock]
mprorock: [system effects] [measurements]
22:57:56 [gendler]
gendler: [principles]
22:58:05 [yoav]
yoav: [energy reduction, measurement]
22:58:15 [ivan]
ivan: [measurements]
22:58:18 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: [horizontal review]
22:58:23 [tzviya]
tzviya: [principles]
22:58:35 [AramZS]
AramZS: [measurements][principles]
22:58:44 [yoav]
Tim Frick: co-chair of the sustyweb group. Wrote a charter. Want to know how we can collaborate
22:59:06 [jholland]
[jholland: akamai has a sustainability commitment, if I can get access to a good standard for reporting usage I will push measurement within akamai and return feedback on problems with applying the metrics if possible]
22:59:14 [phila]
phila: [measurement] (by which I mean certified measurements against defined methods)
22:59:35 [Judy]
JudyB: [Hybrid] Good hybrid meeting techniques, and sharing awesome research showing the scalable carbon savings from hybrid
23:00:04 [phila]
-> Sustainability CG
23:00:11 [gendler]
23:00:18 [npd]
npdoty: [horizontal review][principles][w3c meetings and operations]
23:01:05 [jgraham]
RRSAgent: make minutes
23:01:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jgraham
23:01:17 [ivan]
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00:10:37 [JoeAndrieu]
are there minutes from the call today?
00:10:56 [cel]
JoeAndrieu: yes:
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00:11:26 [cel]
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22:02:14 [dom]
RRSAgent, bye
22:02:14 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
22:02:14 [dom]
Zakim, bye
22:02:14 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been tantek, gendler, brwalder, npd, Chris_Needham, AramZS, jgraham, mprorock, tidoust, Yoav_Weiss, Mike_Prorock, Jake_Holland,
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