14:08:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #smartcities
14:08:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-smartcities-irc
14:08:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #smartcities
14:13:21 <dom> Meeting: Web-based Digital Twins for Smart Cities  - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:13:23 <dom> Chair: Kazuyuki_Ashimura
14:13:25 <dom> Agenda:  https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f243730c-747a-4966-9b43-b18a6e53c44f#agenda
14:13:27 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
14:13:29 <dom> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:18:26 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
14:18:28 <dom> Zakim, stay
14:18:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'stay', dom
15:10:53 <kaz> kaz has joined #smartcities
15:14:58 <dom> dom has joined #smartcities
16:13:05 <dom> agenda+ breakout
18:07:29 <kaz> kaz has joined #smartcities
18:15:49 <dom> dom has joined #smartcities
19:16:42 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
19:16:52 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:16:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-smartcities-minutes.html kaz
20:15:05 <dom> dom has joined #smartcities
20:30:10 <dom> dom has joined #smartcities
21:07:02 <dom__> dom__ has joined #smartcities
21:35:14 <kaz> kaz has joined #smartcities
21:52:59 <dom> dom has joined #smartcities
21:53:07 <kaz> kaz has joined #smartcities
23:21:39 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #smartcities
23:22:25 <dom> dom has joined #smartcities
23:22:58 <kaz> meeting: Web-based Digital Twins for Smart Cities
23:23:06 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Cooper
23:23:44 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_September_2022#Web-based_Digital_Twins_for_Smart_Cities
23:25:48 <gmlee> gmlee has joined #smartcities
23:27:28 <McCool_> McCool_ has joined #smartcities
23:27:43 <kaz> present+ Michel_McCool, Gyu_Myoung_Lee
23:27:48 <kaz> present+ Jim_Luth
23:28:04 <kaz> present+ Eric_Siow
23:28:53 <Jim_Luth> Jim_Luth has joined #smartcities
23:29:05 <kaz> present+ Takashi_Kasuya
23:29:27 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #smartcities
23:29:28 <kaz> present+ Tetsushi_Matsuda
23:29:40 <kaz> present+ Shuji_Hirakawa
23:29:55 <kaz> present+ Hiroshi_Ota
23:30:00 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #smartcities
23:30:05 <kaz> present+ Bladley_Needham
23:30:08 <McCool_> scribenick: McCool_
23:30:46 <kaz> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura, Tomoaki_Mizushima
23:30:48 <MichaelC> present+
23:30:51 <ota> ota has joined #smartcities
23:30:59 <ota> present+
23:31:00 <donle> donle has joined #smartcities
23:31:11 <McCool_> kaz: thank you for coming
23:31:14 <bneedham> bneedham has joined #smartcities
23:31:22 <bneedham> present+
23:31:23 <McCool_> ... (self-introduces)
23:31:41 <McCool_> ... would like to talk about web-based digital twins
23:31:57 <kasuya> kasuya has joined #smartcities
23:32:06 <kaz> https://www.w3.org/2022/Talks/0914-smartcities-ka/20220914-dt-sc-ka.pdf
23:32:10 <McCool_> ... will first define scope, what has been done so far, what is missing, then discussion on how to resolve gaps
23:32:30 <McCool_> ... as background, we had a workshop and identified a LOT of problems
23:32:46 <McCool_> ... and we also need feedback from stakeholders, including smart cities
23:33:13 <McCool_> ... out of this we generated a charter, but still need to identify and include more stakeholders, so are revisiting
23:33:28 <McCool_> kaz: (summarizes presentations from workshop)
23:33:40 <McCool_> kaz: summarize what has been done
23:34:01 <McCool_> ... we have been working with ECHONET, IoT SDO from Japan
23:34:18 <yonet> yonet has joined #smartcities
23:34:23 <McCool_> ... working with IEC SC3D, working on IoT ontologies
23:34:56 <McCool_> ... and IPA, Takanaka has been working on BIM, and now working on a smart city project in Osaka, already using WoT
23:34:57 <ddahl> ddahl has joined #smartcities
23:35:16 <McCool_> ... TC1/JG11 also working on some projects
23:35:28 <McCool_> ... ITU-T SG20 and some related groups
23:35:44 <McCool_> ... and there is a prototype smart sity
23:35:49 <McCool_> kaz: what is missing?
23:35:50 <dezell> dezell has joined #smartcities
23:36:03 <McCool_> ... (slides)
23:36:03 <dezell> present+ David_Ezell
23:36:16 <McCool_> ... OGC standards and digital twins
23:36:26 <DanD> DanD has joined #smartcities
23:36:35 <hjrchung> hjrchung has joined #smartcities
23:36:40 <McCool_> ... finally W3C: not just HTML, but lots of other data transfer technologies
23:36:58 <McCool_> ... and web standards have been applied to various industries
23:37:15 <McCool_> ... still have a big problem with IoT silos and fragmentation
23:37:33 <McCool_> ... Takanaka has demonstrated integration
23:37:43 <ECHONET_Consortium> ECHONET_Consortium has joined #smartcities
23:37:56 <McCool_> ... but still have a problem with common semantic vocabulary
23:38:49 <McCool_> ... still need guidelines for discovery, inter-system binding, ID auth and management, standard vocabulary, accessibility, geolocation
23:39:07 <McCool_> ... governance of data distribution: security, where to start with data search
23:39:26 <McCool_> kaz: how can be organize the discussion to resolve these gaps?
23:39:53 <McCool_> kaz: "Digital Twins" is commonly mentioned, might be a good place to start
23:40:08 <McCool_> ... would like therefore to start with web-based digital twins
23:40:43 <McCool_> ... since we already had a workshop, and we already have a lot of use cases, we should consolidate
23:40:52 <McCool_> ... so should we start with a CG or IG?
23:40:54 <McCool_> q+
23:41:00 <MichaelC> q+ to ask more about what the web-based digital twin proposal is
23:41:23 <McCool_> ... this morning we also talked with DID/VC, and can integrate with WoT to create a common framework
23:41:47 <McCool_> ... WoT can be used for devices, DID can be used for other entities
23:42:07 <kaz> q?
23:42:24 <kaz> mm: we generated a draft Charter for the potential IG
23:42:41 <McCool_> mm: why did we not just proceed with an IG and the charter we developed?
23:42:51 <McCool_> kaz: need more stakeholders
23:44:09 <McCool_> mm: perhaps we should reopen the charter and revise it as needed
23:44:26 <YanZhang> YanZhang has joined #smartcities
23:44:44 <McCool_> kaz: think "smart cities" is still too broad, want to narrow further
23:44:55 <YanZhang> q+
23:45:01 <McCool_> jl: OGC has also been doing work in smart cities
23:45:29 <McCool_> ... but there is no clear definition of "smart city", but we also have been looking at digital twins
23:45:49 <MichaelC> q+ to ask how digital twin differs from other exchange mechanisms
23:45:56 <McCool_> ... better connected to goals of data sharing and analysis (esp spatial-temporal) of OGC
23:46:05 <McCool_> q?
23:46:24 <MichaelC> ack me
23:46:24 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask more about what the web-based digital twin proposal is and to ask how digital twin differs from other exchange mechanisms
23:46:25 <McCool_> jl: agree that DT is a good focus, will help clarify smart city concept
23:46:37 <kaz> ack MichaelC
23:46:56 <McCool_> mc: coming from outside, want to understand how smart cities and digital twins connect
23:47:11 <McCool_> kaz: DT is basically a virtualization of actual environment
23:47:40 <McCool_> ... such a mechanism should be useful for managing and providing services
23:48:10 <McCool_> mc: to me twin meant "city twinning" which I understand is different concept
23:48:42 <kaz> present+ Phil_Archer
23:49:00 <McCool_> jl: many tools enable a digital representation of various aspects of the real system: looks the same, behaves the same, but is not the same
23:49:06 <McCool_> q+
23:49:23 <MichaelC> q+ to ask if digital twins and metaverse would intersect
23:49:25 <McCool_> jl: also recognition that social dimension is also important
23:49:41 <tantek> tantek has joined #smartcities
23:50:00 <McCool_> ... connection between physical and digital is still important
23:50:12 <McCool_> ... has an affinity with concepts of models
23:50:30 <dezell> q+ to ask about twins in retail
23:50:38 <lgombos_______> lgombos_______ has joined #smartcities
23:51:22 <kaz> mm: even "Digital Twins" may be still too broad
23:51:47 <kaz> ... we should narrow the purpose and clarify our points
23:52:04 <kaz> ... also different kind of data to be handled
23:52:09 <MichaelC> ack mc
23:52:17 <kaz> ... not only geolocation but also temporal data, etc.
23:52:47 <YanZhang> YanZhang has joined #smartcities
23:52:55 <kaz> ... combination of IoT device and geolocation, for example
23:53:03 <kaz> jl: totally agree
23:53:08 <YanZhang> Q+
23:53:11 <kaz> ... absolutely right
23:53:45 <kaz> ... for example, it comes to my mind around energy consumption
23:53:55 <kaz> ... take action to solve problems
23:54:08 <kaz> q?
23:54:16 <kaz> ... there are sensors and actuators
23:54:24 <kaz> ack Yan
23:54:33 <MichaelC> q- later
23:54:37 <McCool_> yz: do have projects for smart cites in did/vc
23:54:48 <kaz> qq+
23:55:06 <McCool_> ... looking at metaverse applications, in particular event management, stadiums, temples
23:55:24 <McCool_> ... part missing in all projects is confidential computing
23:55:37 <McCool_> ... need privacy protection
23:55:58 <McCool_> ... need secure enclaves
23:56:06 <McCool_> ... need to add this aspect
23:56:42 <McCool_> ... ex project in Toronto got a lot of complaints for not respecting privacy
23:57:00 <McCool_> ... mapping people into virtual worlds can "trap" them
23:57:23 <McCool_> ... feel there are two direction: privacy, and then a focus on users
23:57:45 <McCool_> kaz: many similar discussions in workshop
23:57:47 <kaz> q?
23:57:51 <kaz> ack k
23:57:51 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to YanZhang
23:58:06 <MichaelC> q+ gyu
23:58:10 <MichaelC> q- later
23:58:25 <kaz> qq+ Gyumoung
23:58:34 <kaz> ack Gyu
23:58:43 <MichaelC> q- g
23:58:55 <McCool_> gym: regarding digital twin, is important direction to compose physical and cyber space
23:58:58 <Josh-OGC> Josh-OGC has joined #smartcities
23:59:08 <McCool_> ... but how to do that is the important thing
23:59:21 <McCool_> ... there are lots of efforts and different dimensions
23:59:34 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #smartcities
23:59:40 <McCool_> ... also in case of web3 and metaverse, lots of things to consider
23:59:51 <tantek_> present+
23:59:58 <kaz> q?
00:00:08 <kaz> ack de
00:00:08 <Zakim> dezell, you wanted to ask about twins in retail
00:00:24 <McCool_> de: wanted to second some comments; here representing retail
00:00:33 <ddahl> present+
00:00:35 <McCool_> ... stores care about similar things as cities
00:00:53 <McCool_> ... have traffic, cameras, making sure that things that are supposed to happen do happen
00:01:13 <kaz> q?
00:01:22 <McCool_> ... other similar environments would be a laboratory, or a kitchen
00:01:38 <McCool_> ... point about confidential computing
00:01:49 <McCool_> ... iot is the physical reality input into the DT
00:01:54 <McCool_> ... two big problems
00:01:57 <McCool_> ... one is replay
00:02:25 <McCool_> ... can imagine an attacker spoofing data
00:02:50 <Josh-OGC> The chain of links between a sensor reading and an interpretation of the world is described by the OGC/ISO standard Observations and Measurements, also modeled by the W3C ontology SOSA/SSN
00:02:52 <McCool_> ... and the other is fingerprinting, AI can watch that data and make inferences
00:03:01 <McCool_> ... both those things are hard to get around
00:03:02 <tantek_> +1 concerned about fingerprinting
00:03:29 <McCool_> yz: and all that data needs to be processed, typically with an AI algorithm
00:03:55 <McCool_> ... often want to use a cloud services, but too much bandwidth, need edge computing
00:03:57 <kaz> present+ Daihei_Shiohama
00:04:01 <kaz> present+ Dan_Duruta
00:04:51 <kaz> mm: part of the draft IG Charter suggests we collaborate with the related groups
00:05:02 <Josh-OGC> Important to remember that there is an inevitable tension between confidentiality of data and transparency of (e.g. ML) interpretations.
00:05:14 <kaz> q?
00:05:32 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot/charters/smart-cities/smart-cities-ig-charter.html Draft IG Charter
00:05:35 <Josh-OGC> q+
00:05:38 <McCool_> mc: thinking about digital twins, can use for modelling
00:05:52 <McCool_> ... who are the users?  metaverse visitors?  citizens?
00:05:59 <kaz> q?
00:06:02 <dezell> q+
00:06:05 <kaz> ack m
00:06:05 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask if digital twins and metaverse would intersect
00:06:06 <MichaelC> ack me
00:06:08 <kaz> ack j
00:06:14 <McCool_> jl: talked about different representations
00:06:26 <McCool_> ... DT is useful just as an organizing concept
00:06:38 <McCool_> ... consistency between DT and world
00:06:57 <McCool_> ... also clear there will not be one DT but different aspects
00:07:11 <McCool_> ... but do need to use consistent data, e.g. the same maps
00:07:32 <kaz> q?
00:07:38 <kaz> ack d
00:07:38 <McCool_> kaz: consistency also arises in ontologies
00:08:06 <Josh-OGC> The basis of any start in digital twins is indeed a consistent spatial data framework.
00:08:08 <McCool_> dezell: does current charter include digital twin
00:08:27 <kaz> s|ontologies|ontologies as well. how to choose necessary ontologies/DTs is a good question|
00:08:33 <McCool_> ... but wonder if smart city should be in quotes, and focus be on digital twins
00:08:41 <kaz> q?
00:09:15 <McCool_> ... from the marketing point of view, smart cities is a useful concept
00:09:24 <McCool_> q+
00:09:47 <kaz> mm: agree the target is still too broad
00:10:09 <kaz> ... all of stores, buildings and cities are important
00:10:30 <Josh-OGC> The different scales of digital twins benefit and suffer from the same scale and unit area concerns of classical spatial analysis, just in more dimensions.
00:10:51 <DanD> DanD has joined #smartcities
00:11:12 <McCool_> mm: worried about scope, different technologies for retail, BIM, smart cities
00:11:13 <DanD> q+
00:11:30 <kaz> ... for example, building is part of cities
00:11:37 <McCool_> ... would prefer narrow scope, but don't know if we CAN decouple buildings and cities
00:11:51 <McCool_> dd: we have digital twins for networks
00:12:04 <kaz> ack d
00:12:07 <McCool_> ... use simulation all the time in other areas
00:12:18 <kaz> ackm
00:12:23 <Josh-OGC> OGC is supporting activities in both "Urban" Digital Twins and "Environmental" Digital Twins. Jet engines, a bit less so.
00:12:28 <kaz> s/ackm/ack m/
00:12:29 <McCool_> ... parallel that david was using for retail is interesting
00:12:34 <kaz> ack m
00:12:52 <McCool_> ... but in city are talking about different sensor networks owned by different owners
00:12:58 <McCool_> ... in retail, single owner
00:13:13 <McCool_> ... this needs to be taken into account, data sharing is much harder
00:13:21 <McCool_> q+
00:13:25 <YanZhang> YanZhang has joined #smartcities
00:13:28 <kaz> ack m
00:13:33 <kaz> mm: I agree
00:13:42 <YanZhang> Q+
00:13:47 <ddahl> ddahl has joined #smartcities
00:14:14 <kaz> ... different smart cities use different mechanisms and don't share information with each other
00:14:33 <kaz> ack y
00:14:47 <McCool_> mm: cities are also very fragmented
00:14:57 <McCool_> ... even hard to get departments to work together
00:15:00 <McCool_> ... silos
00:15:10 <McCool_> yz: agree with that, have seen that as well
00:15:45 <McCool_> ... not only departments, but adjacent regions may not use the same standards
00:15:49 <DanD> https://www.atis.org/resources/smart-cities-data-catalog-specification/
00:15:50 <McCool_> q+
00:15:53 <Josh-OGC> Successful smart cities have a data "czar" with some authority to collect, harmonize, and disseminate data, really creating incipient UDT's
00:16:13 <kaz> qq+
00:16:26 <kaz> q- later
00:16:26 <McCool_> yz: even time series database sharing
00:16:39 <Josh-OGC> q+
00:16:52 <kaz> ack m
00:17:14 <kaz> mm: reminded me of the WoT Demo
00:17:30 <kaz> ... what we're still missing is expressing transformation data
00:17:38 <kaz> ... mapping into common construction
00:17:46 <kaz> ... the way to express the structure
00:18:09 <kaz> ... maybe we need to look into some kind of transmation mechanism like XSL
00:18:23 <McCool_> mm: I do think data alignment and mapping are one of the key problems
00:18:55 <McCool_> ack mc
00:19:17 <McCool_> kaz: agree we should look at mechanisms to connect different silos
00:19:56 <McCool_> .. this morning we had a discussion with did/vc, and internal collaboration
00:20:00 <kaz> q?
00:20:05 <kaz> ack k
00:20:05 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to YanZhang
00:20:07 <kaz> ack j
00:20:29 <McCool_> jl: another aspect is bilateral transformation are a dead end
00:20:32 <kaz> s/tranmation/transformation/
00:20:56 <McCool_> ... having an integration model that other silos can converge on
00:21:17 <McCool_> ... have been working on such common models for infrastructure
00:21:25 <kaz> q?
00:21:28 <McCool_> ... but so far have only got one model built
00:21:39 <McCool_> ... not for lack of tools, but from lack of culture
00:21:43 <McCool_> q+
00:21:51 <kaz> ack m
00:22:20 <kaz> mm: honestly, the workshop was great but no citizens attended
00:22:25 <kaz> ... that is a big problem
00:22:53 <kaz> ... number of effort for citizens is quite low
00:23:21 <kaz> q?
00:23:47 <kaz> qq+ josh
00:23:55 <kaz> q- josh
00:23:58 <McCool_> mm: do thing big problem is getting cities to the table
00:24:20 <McCool_> jl: plug for OGC, group has been working on developing a set of practices
00:24:51 <McCool_> ... then there is a set of expectations and appropriate tools to accomplish various missions
00:24:55 <kaz> s/do thing/do think/
00:24:55 <McCool_> q?
00:25:18 <McCool_> kaz: I would like to ask SDO people who have not yet raised their hands
00:25:35 <McCool_> ... if they have any comments or questions, for example, regarding BIM
00:25:42 <Josh-OGC> Just to clarify, Spatial Data on the Web is a joint OGC - W3C group with shared membership.
00:26:00 <Josh-OGC> https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/#card-75471
00:26:01 <McCool_> ly: IEC, not only focused on smart city, but providing common ontologies for devices and sensors
00:26:31 <Josh-OGC> Sorry: https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/sdw
00:26:48 <McCool_> ... common understanding of available devices and assets
00:27:08 <kaz> s|https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/#card-75471||
00:27:11 <McCool_> ... is necessary and related to data models for digital twin, should be included in this group
00:28:08 <McCool_> ... digital twin is not only for smart cities, already widely used in manufacturing
00:28:16 <McCool_> ... and we can refer to existing use cases in other domains
00:28:35 <McCool_> kaz: collecting that kind of existing best practices will be important
00:29:09 <McCool_> yamashita: I think web based technologies are necessary for digital twins and for smart buildings
00:29:18 <McCool_> ... so we definitely want to keep in touch
00:29:37 <McCool_> kaz: also, you are working on actual smart city projects so should have some concrete goals
00:29:44 <kaz> s/yamashita/kasuya/
00:29:53 <McCool_> yamashita: we must use automation to create data models
00:29:58 <kaz> s/yamashita/kasuya/
00:30:10 <McCool_> ... we are currently researching this topic
00:30:20 <kaz> q?
00:30:21 <McCool_> kaz: need some kind of organization
00:31:44 <tantek_> +1 McCool_ create a CG before considering creating an IG
00:32:11 <McCool_> mm: what are next steps?  Can we send invitation to people here to another meeting?
00:32:18 <McCool_> kaz: will do that
00:32:27 <MichaelC> MichaelC has left #smartcities
00:32:35 <ktoumura> ktoumura has left #smartcities
00:32:48 <ddahl> ddahl has left #smartcities
00:33:04 <Josh-OGC> Josh-OGC has left #smartcities
00:36:45 <kaz> ... I'll generate a ML including people here, and also we can use GitHub for further discussion, e.g., reviewing the draft Charter
00:36:48 <kaz> [adjourned]
00:36:53 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
00:36:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-smartcities-minutes.html kaz
00:37:01 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
00:37:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
00:37:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-smartcities-minutes.html kaz
01:28:56 <tantek> tantek has joined #smartcities
15:33:19 <bneedham> bneedham has left #smartcities
16:05:37 <tantek> tantek has joined #smartcities
18:51:18 <tante> tante has joined #smartcities
20:33:28 <tantek> tantek has joined #smartcities
21:14:55 <dom> dom has joined #smartcities
21:56:31 <dom> Zakim, bye
21:56:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Cooper, Michel_McCool, Gyu_Myoung_Lee, Jim_Luth, Eric_Siow, Takashi_Kasuya, Tetsushi_Matsuda,
21:56:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #smartcities
21:56:33 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
21:56:33 <RRSAgent> I see no action items