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14:12:36 <dom> Meeting: Architecting for Privacy, Media Accessibility and Product development: the video element  - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:12:39 <dom> Chair: Nigel_Megitt
14:12:41 <dom> Agenda:  https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8aca01fe-feb7-4cde-9837-6dcd126a27ac#agenda
14:12:45 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
14:12:47 <dom> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:18:08 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
14:18:10 <dom> Zakim, stay
14:18:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'stay', dom
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16:12:55 <dom> agenda+ breakout
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20:32:39 <Ben_Tillyer> present+
20:32:42 <gendler> present+
20:32:43 <nigel> Meeting: Architecting for Privacy, Media Accessibility and Product development: the video element
20:32:48 <nigel> Present+ Nigel_Megitt
20:32:57 <gkatsev> Present+ Gary_Katsevman
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20:36:43 <wendyreid> nigel: Summary for this is to think about architectural models for maintaining privacy in accessibility
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20:36:51 <wendyreid> ... referncing the video element in particular
20:37:01 <wendyreid> ... allow user choices without fingerprinting
20:37:01 <mbgower> present+
20:37:26 <wendyreid> ... context, people with barriers to access need to adjust display settings
20:37:39 <wendyreid> ... the lack of consistency in how those settings are done is a problem in itself
20:37:49 <wendyreid> ... user settings made portable between systems
20:37:57 <wendyreid> ... ITU is working on this, as part of the UN
20:38:07 <wendyreid> ... ???? group
20:38:14 <wendyreid> ... working on the common user profile
20:38:37 <wendyreid> ... in the US the FCC has the CTA, working on something similar to allow users to set their preferences for media
20:38:48 <wendyreid> ... a standard format document made available to apps, websites, etc
20:38:53 <wendyreid> ... the user can edit and share it
20:39:06 <wendyreid> ... and different settings for different scenarios, like screen size or type
20:39:14 <wendyreid> ... which is very powerful, but there is risk
20:39:26 <wendyreid> ... the document has high entropy, user fingerprinting is very possible
20:39:34 <wendyreid> ... privacy is a concern
20:39:48 <wendyreid> ... to meet user needs, product developers must suit their output to the user needs
20:40:00 <wendyreid> ... they have a legitimate need to know how users use the features
20:40:17 <wendyreid> ... knowing data like how people prefer captions would help with product decisions
20:40:34 <wendyreid> ... it's difficult to polyfill things on areas like the video element
20:41:09 <wendyreid> ... how can we improve accessibility while also ensuring privacy, and the communication of user needs to product developers
20:41:15 <wendyreid> ... mentioning the video element
20:41:21 <wendyreid> ... key features
20:41:30 <wendyreid> ... video does not take child elements
20:41:48 <wendyreid> ... it's a shadow host, but cannot have a shadow tree attached
20:42:00 <wendyreid> ... there is no parent-child layout
20:42:14 <wendyreid> ... try to put content on top of the video
20:42:20 <wendyreid> ... it's clunky if not impossible
20:42:39 <wendyreid> ... you need to create sibling or related elements and make them work together through CSS
20:42:47 <Ben_Tillyer> s/???? group/Intersector Rapporteur Group Audiovisual Media Accessibility
20:42:51 <wendyreid> ... ever tried tracking the video as the page changes?
20:43:21 <wendyreid> nigel: no general purpose polyfills
20:43:37 <wendyreid> ... that tracks data and uses it, but it's difficult
20:43:47 <wendyreid> ... you still cannot access the user accessibility settings
20:44:21 <wendyreid> ... the only way to see things, you can access through captions in VTT, entry and exit handlers
20:44:30 <wendyreid> ... good for privacy but difficult for product improvement
20:44:49 <wendyreid> ... two choices, <track> children with VTT captions and browser renders
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20:45:08 <wendyreid> ... any default styling is possibly overridden or tweaked
20:45:45 <wendyreid> ... option 2, create a separate container element and render captions, use CSS to colocate, customisation is whatever the page offers
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20:45:49 <wendyreid> ... you can get data
20:46:00 <wendyreid> ... but no relationship to existing accessibility preferences.
20:46:14 <wendyreid> ... tension between user and product owner needs, but there is no real tension
20:46:17 <wendyreid> ... so end goal
20:46:23 <wendyreid> s/so/same/
20:46:32 <wendyreid> nigel: Here are my ideas
20:46:49 <wendyreid> ... allow the <video> element to accept a shadow tree
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20:47:02 <wendyreid> ... use polyfills and reporting
20:47:09 <mbgower> rrsagent, make minutes
20:47:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-private-a11y-minutes.html mbgower
20:47:19 <wendyreid> ... or allow the user to relax strict constraints on access to user settings
20:47:32 <wendyreid> ... ideally for pages where the user is already signed in or authenticated
20:47:38 <wendyreid> ... trusted and signed web components
20:48:05 <wendyreid> ... some components that have special access to user settings, where it's trusted
20:48:19 <wendyreid> ... user could authorise its use
20:48:42 <wendyreid> ... DOM implementation is authorized by the UA
20:48:53 <wendyreid> ... what do native apps do?
20:49:12 <wendyreid> ... Android and Apple have a API for fetching caption settings
20:49:21 <wendyreid> ... is privacy not important???
20:49:28 <wendyreid> ... in apps there may be a moderation process
20:49:45 <wendyreid> ... app developers report that the usage of data is likely not checked
20:49:51 <wendyreid> ... discussion time!
20:50:00 <Ben_Tillyer> q?
20:50:01 <mbgower> q?
20:50:05 <eeeps> q+
20:50:15 <gendler> q+
20:50:41 <wendyreid> eeeps: Are you familiar with the W3C design guidelines that make it clear that UAs should not know if assistive tech is being used?
20:51:00 <wendyreid> nigel: I agree with that, using accessibility settings to identify the user should not happen
20:51:41 <wendyreid> eeeps: Working on accessibility API to allow canvas to interact
20:51:45 <jcraig> Cyns referenced these design principles link: https://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/#do-not-expose-use-of-assistive-tech 2.9. Don’t reveal that assistive technologies are being used
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20:52:21 <wendyreid> ... what do you need to see in the browser rendering of captions to make this less necessary?
20:52:41 <wendyreid> nigel: There are problems with the browser rendering captions, but I don't think that will change this
20:52:51 <wendyreid> ... how do I, a product owner, improve things for users?
20:53:00 <wendyreid> ... avoid making the same adjustments over and over again
20:53:05 <wendyreid> ... but I can't find that out
20:53:13 <wendyreid> eeeps: And the regulatory work?
20:53:40 <wendyreid> nigel: ITU has broader scope than television, it's focused on audiovisual a11y, the FCC's work is mainly focused on TV
20:53:46 <jcraig> q+ to share a somewhat-relevant link to Nigel's response about AT can be tracked https://github.com/w3ctag/design-principles/issues/293
20:53:47 <jcraig> q?
20:53:55 <mbgower> q+
20:54:26 <wendyreid> Eric: your first suggestion, ould it be possible for the page to tell the browser about the elements that it's using for captions?
20:54:36 <wendyreid> ... then the user style could be applied
20:54:42 <jcraig> q+ eric
20:54:52 <mbgower> q-
20:54:55 <wendyreid> ... that is a possibility
20:55:08 <wendyreid> ... we made a proposal for a generic queue API
20:55:15 <wendyreid> ... it's in WebKit as an experimental feature
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20:55:36 <wendyreid> ... allows people who can't use WebVTT to take the captions they load themselves to hand over to the browser to use
20:55:41 <wendyreid> ... use the user preferences
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20:55:48 <mfoltzgoogle> Present+ Mark_Foltz
20:55:50 <wendyreid> ... it doesn't address the need to know what the users does
20:56:00 <mbgower> ack eeeps
20:56:04 <wendyreid> nigel: No, not on the macro level
20:56:15 <wendyreid> eeeps: Question of receiving a11y preferences
20:56:23 <wendyreid> ... in CSS, prefers media queries
20:56:41 <wendyreid> ... specifically chosen to do specific things in certain situations
20:56:41 <jcraig> q+ to respond to the media feature reference
20:56:49 <wendyreid> ... prefer high contrast some or all of the time
20:57:12 <wendyreid> ... having a prefers- media query with too small a scope, but it is one way to present an adapted page
20:57:15 <mfoltzgoogle> Q+
20:57:31 <wendyreid> ... in terms of reporting, there was a proposal this week about a reporting API
20:57:39 <wendyreid> ... aggregate reporting with manu use caes
20:57:47 <wendyreid> s/manu/many
20:57:48 <mbgower> ack gendler
20:58:08 <mbgower> q?
20:58:23 <wendyreid> gendler: The inital point raised about design principles trumps my point, any signalling here could raise that issue
20:58:24 <jcraig> The Media Features reference that keeps mentioned https://www.w3.org/TR/mediaqueries-5/#mf-user-preferences
20:58:37 <wendyreid> ... I wanted to add a smaller note on one of the proposals, two
20:58:43 <cyns> Web Design Principles https://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/#do-not-expose-use-of-assistive-tech
20:58:45 <jcraig> s/keeps/eeeps/
20:58:48 <wendyreid> ... allowing users to relax constraints when they are signed in
20:59:03 <wendyreid> ... that relationship doesn't mean they give consent
20:59:04 <cyns> q+
20:59:17 <wendyreid> ... we want confirmed consent and clear communicated
20:59:24 <wendyreid> ... stages of "signed in"
20:59:33 <jcraig> s/these design principles link/this design principles link/
20:59:35 <wendyreid> nigel: How does the browser know you're signed in
20:59:46 <Ben_Tillyer> q?
20:59:50 <wendyreid> Eric: We could end up with sites insisting on you being signed in to allow things
20:59:51 <jcraig> q- eric
21:00:03 <wendyreid> ... privacy tracking in Safari, some major sites require it be turned off to use the site
21:00:26 <wendyreid> gendler: All of the criticism is not to say thisn't worthy topic
21:00:36 <wendyreid> ... in this case, there's no way to bridge the conflict
21:00:43 <nigel> q+
21:00:46 <Wilco> q+
21:00:49 <jcraig> q+ nigel
21:00:54 <mbgower> ack jcraig
21:00:54 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to share a somewhat-relevant link to Nigel's response about AT can be tracked https://github.com/w3ctag/design-principles/issues/293 and to respond to the media
21:00:57 <Zakim> ... feature reference
21:01:03 <mbgower> q?
21:01:11 <wendyreid> jcraig: I chaired the design principles work, not sharing with AT
21:01:39 <wendyreid> ... somewhat relevant, you mentioned it can already be done, most core architectural features leak a11y data
21:01:48 <wendyreid> ... I had hoped we could discuss it with the TAG
21:02:23 <wendyreid> ... media features, I am partly to blame
21:02:40 <wendyreid> ... there are a lot of media features we would like to see but need CSS to adopt a privacy model
21:02:48 <wendyreid> ... the ones that are shipping
21:03:06 <wendyreid> ... enough people without disabilities use these features, that the fingerprinting risk is reduced
21:03:24 <wendyreid> ... the other history is that there are a lot of times that a preferences API has been recommended
21:03:38 <wendyreid> ... I wrote "in the UI user context" and many were vehemently opposed
21:03:45 <wendyreid> ... even though I had a security model
21:03:54 <wendyreid> ... and there are things we cannot do
21:03:58 <Ben_Tillyer> s/"in the UI user context"/IndieUI: User Context
21:04:04 <nigel> q?
21:04:13 <wendyreid> ... I'd like to offload the preferences to the browser, the trusted agent
21:04:21 <mbgower> ack mfoltzgoogle
21:04:31 <mbgower> q?
21:04:39 <wendyreid> mfoltzgoogle: I think you earlier mentioned using the shadow DOM
21:04:49 <wendyreid> ... how many issues were DOM issues vs styling issues
21:05:15 <wendyreid> ... users expressing style preferences is different, more clarity is needed on the issues
21:05:17 <mbgower> ack cyns
21:05:28 <mbgower> ack nigel
21:05:36 <wendyreid> nigel: A few different responses
21:05:46 <wendyreid> ... no because design principles
21:05:54 <wendyreid> ... if its rendering, we should do rendering better
21:06:10 <wendyreid> ... theres something outside those
21:06:25 <wendyreid> ... I mentioned a web component with a trust model built in
21:06:51 <wendyreid> ... user needs to confirm trust, and the component handles what data it needs
21:06:58 <wendyreid> ... I wonder if this might be the territory we're in
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21:07:17 <wendyreid> ... it's possible to anonymise, aggregate the data
21:07:31 <wendyreid> ... could have user preference for the component
21:07:34 <wendyreid> ... some intermediating
21:07:37 <cyns> q+
21:07:39 <mbgower> ack Wilco
21:08:13 <wendyreid> Wilco: In what situations would a browser include or expose prefrences on captions but not have those preferences in the video element
21:08:20 <wendyreid> ... not sure how we get into this situation
21:08:37 <wendyreid> ... I don't see the need to polyfill that based on browser information
21:08:47 <wendyreid> ... browser extensions could fill this
21:09:11 <wendyreid> ... for privacy, a note, anything in the light DOM can be queries
21:09:25 <wendyreid> ... it would need to be in the shadow DOM in order to avoid leaking privacy data
21:09:33 <wendyreid> ... very fundamental change
21:09:53 <mbgower> ack cyns
21:09:57 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
21:10:12 <jcraig> cyns: is the goal analytics?
21:10:16 <jcraig> nigel: yes
21:10:29 <mbgower> q?
21:10:51 <jcraig> cyns: site side benefit is analytics... user benefit is consistency/accessibilty
21:11:12 <jcraig> nigel: yes, but not just site (e.g. bbc) consistency.
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21:12:12 <mbgower> q?
21:12:21 <jcraig> cyns: talking about brand consistency and system view conventions... sometimes at odds with each other?
21:12:48 <jcraig> mbgower: how should we provide further feedback Nigel?
21:13:53 <mbgower> https://www.w3.org/2022/Talks/TPAC/breakout-sessions/private-a11y/private_a11y_breakout.html
21:14:29 <mbgower> scribe: mbgower
21:14:55 <jcraig> nigel: Core question for this session
21:14:55 <jcraig> 
21:14:56 <jcraig> What architecture can allow users to set preferences in a reusable way without exposing them to unwanted fingerprinting, while allowing content/app/page providers to get useful product data about accessibility feature usage, and allowing for creative/improving solutions for accessibility?
21:14:58 <mbgower> nigel: I think it's very clear that no one is trying to ID individual users or make them do something for a site to work
21:15:13 <cyns> q+
21:15:28 <mbgower> ... so the vague proposal I'm hear: make sure everything is in the shadow dom
21:15:36 <mbgower> s/hear/hearing
21:16:11 <mbgower> ... it felt like we were heading towards a browser extension. I'm not sure if that's acceptable. It doesn't feel like the same level of consent prompt.
21:16:37 <mbgower> ... Is that even feasible? Can a page say "i want a browser extension"?
21:16:57 <mbgower> jcraig: So your suggesting getting a third party extension?
21:17:15 <mbgower> nigel: yes, it would be able to write into the shadow dom of the video. a trusted component
21:17:31 <mbgower> jcraig: so is that does that exist or is it theoretical?
21:17:54 <mbgower> nigel: I tried to make something for caption rendering. the BBC is unaware of user settings for captions.
21:18:18 <mbgower> nigel: it's great we do our own caption rendering and we get data about size choices
21:18:39 <mbgower> nigel: but the user does't want to have to keep doing that
21:18:47 <cyns> q?
21:18:57 <jcraig> ack cyns
21:19:41 <jcraig> cyns: think about threat modeling, with the assumption that the web site is a bad actor. user agent should protect the user settings from that bad actor.
21:20:00 <gendler> +1 cyns
21:20:04 <mbgower> q?
21:20:15 <jcraig> nigel: trying to use constraints as a compromise to serve both users and site authors better
21:20:52 <jcraig> nigel: tried to explore relationship b/w user, page, and browser
21:21:20 <jcraig> nigel: and to clarify, there is no existing extension that provides this functionality
21:21:56 <gendler> Q+
21:21:57 <jcraig> ITI and CTA are discussion shared terminology of user settings… but no format or API
21:22:37 <jcraig> cyns: where does that data lie?
21:22:37 <mbgower> q?
21:22:40 <mbgower> ack gpellegrino
21:22:43 <mbgower> ack gendler
21:23:06 <jcraig> jcraig: it doesn't yet... CTA-2115 and ITI??? are shared vocab exercises
21:24:07 <Wilco> q+
21:24:27 <mbgower> ack nigel
21:24:33 <jcraig> gendler: extension ides, if everyone is sending a signal of accessibility it would not give a specific pref, but still show a general needs. could be obfuscated by injecting noise to the page.
21:24:49 <jcraig> nigel: why would the page need to know?
21:25:34 <jcraig> gendler: page can infer from use of a third-party extension that user may have an accessibility need
21:25:56 <mbgower> ack Wilco
21:26:06 <eeeps> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1jouxxwqf_l2YvGL-NpUHMEI9Af84QabYMHXvpbCsDjE/ is the aggregated reporting proposal (freshly proposed yesterday in the WebPerf WG)
21:26:17 <jcraig> nigel: something about abstracting the data usage where the page could not get anything from the extension
21:26:42 <mbgower> q?
21:26:46 <jcraig> wilco: google prototypes features through extensions. does that out the user of those extensions?
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21:26:57 <jcraig> cyns: we're pretty careful about it
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21:27:11 <jcraig> wilco: I'm gonna check ;-)
21:27:35 <Wilco> q+
21:28:09 <jcraig> nigel: thanks to all... I hope we can share the goal of finding a route to a good solution.
21:28:40 <jcraig> nigel: worth repeating: this is not an attempt to find user identifiable information.... just aggregate
21:29:33 <jcraig> wilco: consider a community group with extension developers and browser developers?
21:29:58 <mbgower> scribe: mbgower
21:30:10 <mbgower> nigel: I want the best for users
21:30:42 <Wilco> present+
21:30:42 <wendyreid> present+
21:30:45 <mateus> present+
21:30:53 <ericc> present+
21:31:04 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
21:31:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-private-a11y-minutes.html nigel
21:31:11 <mbgower> rrsagent, end meeting
21:31:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'end meeting', mbgower.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:31:33 <mbgower> zakim, end meeting
21:31:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ben_Tillyer, gendler, Nigel_Megitt, Gary_Katsevman, atai, gpellegrino, wendyreid, ShawnT, cyril, mbgower, Mark_Foltz, Wilco, mateus, ericc
21:31:37 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:31:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-private-a11y-minutes.html Zakim
21:31:38 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, mbgower; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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21:14:55 <dom> dom has joined #private-a11y
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21:34:27 <eeeps> eeeps has joined #private-a11y
21:56:17 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
21:56:17 <RRSAgent> I see no action items