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14:05:23 <dom> Meeting: VTT-based Audio Descriptions for Media Accessibility  - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:05:25 <dom> Chair: Eric_Carlson, James_Craig
14:05:27 <dom> Agenda:  https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/7bd857cf-f322-4ab7-9430-3a28eae12de4#agenda
14:05:29 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
14:05:31 <dom> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:16:38 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
14:16:40 <dom> Zakim, stay
14:16:40 <Zakim> I don't understand 'stay', dom
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16:12:11 <dom> agenda+ breakout
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23:25:58 <tink> present+ Léonie (tink)
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23:36:29 <nigel> Present+ Nigel_Megitt
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23:36:50 <cyril_> scribe: cyril_
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23:37:36 <vivien> present+
23:37:40 <cyril_> jcraig: defining audio descriptions, similar to how closed captions work for the deaf, but for the blind
23:37:52 <cyril_> ... AD are alternate or additive audio tracks
23:37:56 <cyril_> ... for low vision users
23:38:03 <cyril_> ... old time radio shows used to do that
23:38:24 <cyril_> ... Apple has experience in this area
23:38:35 <cyril_> ... [screen shot of all the audio choices and caption choices]
23:38:59 <cyril_> ... [Explaining Ted Lasso's slide]
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23:39:57 <jcraig> 1. Recorded audio: full mix (composited in studio) or dry mix (composited on device; new possibilities may be enabled by Dolby AC4 “accessibility descriptor”)
23:40:03 <zcorpan> present+
23:40:07 <cyril_> ... among the type of AD
23:40:29 <cyril_> ... there is a new type of Dolby AC4 with tagging, accessibility descriptors
23:40:38 <JohnRochford> James/Apple should be proud of the 20+ languages, with audio description for each, for the Ted Lasso production on Apple TV.
23:40:47 <cyril_> ... could allow repositioning of the audio description to the head phones or near the ears
23:41:01 <cyril_> ... use cases are posted on the Dolby site
23:41:11 <jcraig> 2. Generated text-to-speech-based audio. (Will mention pros/cons later)
23:41:21 <cyril_> ... we are going to talk about the 2nd typem, which is text to speech
23:41:28 <cyril_> ... we will talk about pros/cons
23:41:44 <jcraig> 3. Text-to-braille descriptions w/ or w/o audio. No known implementations, but we hope to change that. Wanted to call this out b/c the “audio descriptions” doesn’t necessarily mean the end format will be audio.
23:41:53 <cyril_> ... another type is text to braille
23:42:14 <cyril_> ... it could be used for people who are deaf and blind as well
23:42:38 <cyril_> ... who is familiar with Extended Descriptions
23:42:44 <cyril_> ... they pause the media playback
23:42:59 <cyril_> ... it can be awkward and we are looking for feedback
23:43:15 <cyril_> ... there are cases where it is necessary and some others where it's not
23:43:22 <cyril_> ... 2 implementations in Chromium and WebKit
23:43:43 <jcraig> Descriptions that pause the media playback. Appropriate in some circumstances, and less desirable in others…. For example in most entertainment contexts (e.g. Movies and TV shows) extended descriptions are often considered undesirable. In other contexts, the utility of extended descriptions may be necessary. We’ll talk more about this in the demo.
23:43:44 <cyril_> eric: A WebVTT has an attribute that describes the kind of cues in it
23:44:01 <cyril_> .. it always had a kind of "description" but was never used
23:44:04 <cyril_> ... the concept is simple
23:44:18 <cyril_> ... in the web engine we enable the caption track and when we would render the cues to the screen
23:44:27 <cyril_> ... instead we pass the text to the voice synthesis engine
23:44:42 <cyril_> ... and like other types of captions, in the caption files, there is a start time and end time
23:45:03 <cyril_> ... in this experimental implementation that I added to WebKit
23:45:06 <cyril_> ... there are 2 modes
23:45:12 <cyril_> ... a cue would start at it start time
23:45:26 <cyril_> ... but if the utterance is longer than its start time, we don't stop the audio
23:45:36 <cyril_> ... it may overlap over the audio
23:45:48 <cyril_> ... if another cue starts, the previous cue is stopped
23:46:05 <cyril_> cyril_: is the demo public?
23:46:12 <cyril_> eric: no, it's not. I don't own the content
23:46:38 <cyril_> ... the descriptions were carefully authored to fit the gap
23:46:52 <cyril_> [dmoe]
23:47:08 <cyril_> s/[dmoe]/[demo]
23:49:00 <cyril_> ... second demo of a lecturer drawing on a chalk board
23:49:26 <cyril_> ... we have not yet enable Extended Descriptions
23:49:32 <cyril_> ... so you'll hear overlap
23:49:59 <cyril_> ... obviously not a good user experience
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23:50:14 <cyril_> ... we duck the volume of the video a bit to let the description be louder
23:50:21 <JohnRochford> q+
23:50:22 <nigel> q+ to ask how you decide when and by how much to duck the video audio
23:50:36 <cyril_> ... let's turn on Extended Descriptions now
23:51:15 <cyril_> ... [video is paused until the description is fully spoken]
23:51:26 <gkatsev> q+
23:51:28 <JohnRochford> That's a much-better user experience.
23:51:31 <cyril_> ... that makes it more understandable
23:51:55 <cyril_> ... however in a movie trailer, where the descriptions were not authored carefully enough
23:52:34 <JohnRochford> The one with the professor documenting a formula on a chalkboard along with extended audio description that pauses the lecture.
23:52:55 <cyril_> ... in that case, it can be really disruptive to the experience
23:53:21 <cyril_> ... one of the questions that we have is: how can we let the user control that?
23:53:41 <cyril_> jcraig: is this just a content problem or do we need more user control at playback?
23:54:07 <Travis> q?
23:54:07 <cyril_> ... the lectures and technical discussions work well but entertainment media does not
23:54:12 <jasonjgw> q+
23:54:13 <tink> q+
23:54:15 <cyril_> ... turning a 2h movie into 3
23:54:36 <cyril_> JohnRochford: I'm legally blind and love audio descriptions
23:54:55 <cyril_> ... maybe we don't want to see a 3h movie, but I would want a lecture as was demonstrated
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23:55:16 <mbgower> present+
23:55:18 <mbgower> q?
23:55:25 <yonet_> present+
23:55:30 <cyril_> jcraig: VTT already works in the browsers
23:55:44 <cyril_> ... it was not as challenging as expected
23:56:00 <cyril_> ... some other pros is that it's easy to author (but it's a con also)
23:56:10 <cyril_> ... it's easy internationalized
23:56:18 <mbgower> rrsagent, make minutes
23:56:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-audio-descriptions-minutes.html mbgower
23:56:20 <cyril_> ... VTT could be used to augment voiced audio descriptions
23:56:35 <cyril_> ... for hybrid voiced and brailled
23:57:12 <cyril_> ... it's much more scalable and cheaper but quality control is a concern
23:57:27 <cyril_> ... another pro is that most streamed media use manifest formats
23:57:40 <cyril_> ... there is a content negotiation happening
23:57:49 <cyril_> ... you're only going to get the bit you need
23:58:10 <cyril_> ... so if it's packaged (epub ...) so all the audio tracks increase the file size
23:58:30 <cyril_> ... this would allow assistive technology data does not increase the file size
23:58:49 <cyril_> ... to the cons, generated text to speech does not sound as good as studio recorded
23:59:02 <cyril_> ... most of the blind community prefers the recorded version if available
23:59:20 <cyril_> ... you can screw up internationalization by just translating and keeping the same timing
23:59:35 <cyril_> ... some content providers provide low quality tts descriptions
23:59:45 <cyril_> ... it's difficult to know how long an utterance will take
23:59:53 <cyril_> ... different users have different preferences for speed
00:00:01 <cyril_> ... so sometimes timing might not work
00:00:08 <cyril_> ... should we clip, compress, etc..
00:00:20 <cyril_> ... what happens if it's authored the wrong way?
00:00:48 <cyril_> ... this does not yet work with spoken captions
00:01:02 <cyril_> ... Apple shipped that on TVOS and iOS several years ago
00:01:26 <cyril_> ... where for deaf/blind in a country where the language is not your primary language
00:01:39 <cyril_> ... you could ask the system to speak the subtitles
00:02:05 <cyril_> nigel: it's commonly used in Europe, called spoken subtitles
00:02:28 <mbgower> q?
00:02:33 <cyril_> jcraig: in that case we have issues combining spoken captions and text based descriptions
00:03:06 <cyril_> ... the most important con is that there is no way to support Extended Descriptions in live streams
00:03:22 <cyril_> ... you could author a VTT file that would pause the live stream
00:03:34 <cyril_> eric: in the current implementation, only one description track can be active at a time
00:03:40 <cyril_> ... it's technically possible to have more than one
00:03:52 <cyril_> ... this way was more straightforward to implement
00:03:56 <mbgower> q+ to say did you say speech rate could be controlled by user?
00:03:56 <cyril_> ... we are looking for feedback
00:04:20 <cyril_> ack JohnRochford
00:04:38 <cyril_> JohnRochford: the first 2 videos that you showed, were they examplifuing the same thing?
00:04:58 <cyril_> eric: the first 2 was to demonstrate that it can work well with 2 pieces of content with no need to pause
00:05:17 <cyril_> ... the first showing of lecture was to show that standard descriptions was not working
00:05:28 <cyril_> ... and the second showing was to demonstrate how they could work
00:05:41 <zcorpan> q+
00:05:43 <cyril_> JohnRochford: I have use cases for multiple tracks
00:05:48 <cyril_> ... for example to learn a language
00:05:51 <jcraig> q?
00:05:57 <cyril_> eric: that's a good point
00:06:25 <cyril_> ... do you know what we would want to do in the case where both tracks have cues that should be active at the same time?
00:06:33 <cyril_> ... speak one utterance and then the next one
00:06:44 <cyril_> JohnRochford: it would seem to me that it could be a user preference
00:06:52 <cyril_> ... simultaneous or sequential
00:07:05 <cyril_> ... a lot of immigrants in the US watch Sesame Street
00:07:10 <jcraig> ack nigel
00:07:10 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to ask how you decide when and by how much to duck the video audio
00:07:18 <Travis> Is this the proposal: https://github.com/WebKit/explainers/tree/main/texttracks ?
00:07:22 <cyril_> nigel: you said that you duck the video/audio
00:07:33 <cyril_> ... that's usually done as part of the audio recording process
00:07:42 <cyril_> ... so how do you decide in the implementation
00:07:48 <cyril_> eric: this is an experiment
00:07:59 <cyril_> ... hot off the press so not spent a lot of time on it
00:08:15 <cyril_> jcraig: we have a user preference for audio ducking for screen reader
00:08:42 <cyril_> ... we would probably implement it in a similar way and not specific for Safari
00:09:06 <cyril_> nigel: the use case for setting the amount by which you duck during authoring is that the program audio loudness varies
00:09:12 <cyril_> ... you don't want to duck by the same amount
00:09:43 <cyril_> jcraig: we could have hints on the ducking
00:09:46 <jcraig> ?
00:09:49 <jcraig> q?
00:09:51 <cyril_> ack gkatsev
00:09:59 <cyril_> gkatsev: I have a couple of comments
00:10:36 <cyril_> ... 1. as a maintainer of video.js, we've had support for that, exposing to screen readers, and use the speech to text
00:10:50 <cyril_> ... Owen Edwards and I worked on that
00:11:01 <gkatsev> https://github.com/OwenEdwards/videojs-speak-descriptions-track
00:11:02 <cyril_> ... as a plugin of videoJS
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00:11:25 <JenniferS> Present+
00:11:31 <cyril_> ... we ducked the audio to a quarter of what it was
00:11:41 <cyril_> ... but if it would be longer, we would pause
00:11:51 <cyril_> jcraig: is that using the WebSpeech API?
00:11:55 <cyril_> gkatsev: yes
00:12:10 <cyril_> ... There is an Elephant's Dream track that you can use publicly
00:12:20 <nigel> q?
00:12:23 <cyril_> ... and this is awesome that you're doing that
00:12:26 <cyril_> ack jasonjgw
00:12:26 <jcraig> ack jas
00:12:57 <cyril_> jasonjgw: you could use the maximum speech rate of the user
00:12:57 <JenniferS> Q+
00:13:12 <cyril_> ... you could also dynamically vary the speech rate up to the max user level
00:13:19 <cyril_> ... you could also pause if this does not work
00:13:56 <cyril_> jcraig: we did talk about compression
00:14:05 <cyril_> ... that is change the speech rate
00:14:17 <cyril_> ... but what do you mean by user's highest acceptable speech rate
00:14:38 <cyril_> jasonjgw: the user is going to have comfort rang
00:14:47 <cyril_> ... and you don't want to exceed that
00:15:07 <cyril_> jcraig: so you're proposing to expose a new user preference
00:15:33 <cyril_> q+
00:15:54 <cyril_> jasonjgw: my second question is that I started to do spatial audio
00:16:05 <cyril_> ... and it could help with having 2 audio tracks
00:16:05 <jcraig> great idea
00:16:29 <cyril_> ... reading described video in braille in real time could be quite a challenging process
00:16:41 <cyril_> ... I'm wondering what the user interface could be?
00:17:48 <cyril_> jcraig: there are braille displays that are more like a full page of braille than a line of braille
00:18:00 <cyril_> ... we could have a scrolled buffer that's moving up
00:18:17 <cyril_> ... it might display on the content type
00:18:33 <cyril_> jasonjgw: the 2D braille display are interesting
00:18:40 <cyril_> ... they might speed up the reading process
00:18:46 <cyril_> ... but it might not be enough
00:18:58 <jcraig> q?
00:19:04 <cyril_> ack tink
00:19:14 <cyril_> tink: 1. what type of AD ight be wanted
00:19:16 <mbgower> q-
00:19:18 <cyril_> ... the context will answer
00:19:23 <vivien> s/ight/might/
00:19:31 <cyril_> ... with entertainement, we tend to leave the AD on
00:19:44 <cyril_> ... but if I'm watching on my own, I might want Extended AD
00:20:00 <cyril_> ... with lectures, XAD would be extremely useful
00:20:12 <cyril_> jcraig: do we need a different "kind" value for XAD
00:20:19 <cyril_> ... you just mentioned different context
00:20:47 <cyril_> tink: the question was more about the mechanics of it?
00:21:01 <cyril_> ... isn't the time the time between the captioning cues?
00:21:17 <dsinger> q+ to say that the time expressed in the cues should not be the time needed, but the time it applies to
00:21:20 <cyril_> jcraig: it depends on what audio happens in between
00:22:10 <mbgower> take it from the sound effects track?
00:22:23 <cyril_> jcraig: let's say we're about to overrun and pause
00:22:41 <cyril_> ... we could trhough machine learning speech recognition or caption data, we could detect
00:22:47 <JohnRochford> q+
00:23:21 <cyril_> tink: we could also influence the authoring
00:23:33 <cyril_> dsinger: what is the interval of the video to which this description applies
00:23:47 <jcraig> q+
00:23:52 <cyril_> ... then it could be a decision of the user to speech over, pause or change reading rate
00:24:14 <cyril_> ... but you want to preserve correct timing, so that if the user seeks it works
00:24:21 <jcraig> ack ds
00:24:23 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to say that the time expressed in the cues should not be the time needed, but the time it applies to
00:24:48 <cyril_> jcraig: there are creative users of audio descriptions, one of the most impressive is to listen to credits at the end of the movie
00:25:14 <jcraig> ack zc
00:25:19 <cyril_> ... don't always assume that the time of audio description is accurate, there is an creative aspect
00:25:26 <cyril_> zcorpan: I'm happy to see this implemented
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00:25:43 <JenniferS> Q
00:25:46 <cyril_> ... you said earlier that in the current implementation, only one track is used
00:25:55 <cyril_> ... does it apply to AD tracks?
00:26:08 <jcraig> only one description track at a time
00:26:11 <cyril_> eric: only one AD track at a time, you could also have subtitles/captions also if you want
00:26:30 <cyril_> zcorpan: a use case I envisage is for deaf/blind users with a braille output
00:26:35 <jcraig> q?
00:26:39 <jcraig> ack Je
00:27:09 <cyril_> JenniferS: it would be very good to have a documentation of the various use cases could be created so that the ideation of the solution could progress
00:27:15 <cyril_> ... a lot of people don't do braille
00:27:27 <nigel> qq+ to mention ADPT's expression of requirements and workflow
00:28:42 <jcraig> ack n
00:28:42 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to react to JenniferS to mention ADPT's expression of requirements and workflow
00:28:54 <cyril_> nigel: there is a thing called the Audio Description community group
00:29:07 <cyril_> ... we create a document which is a requirements for authoring AD
00:29:20 <cyril_> ack cyril_
00:29:54 <cyril_> cyril_: I want to mention the work of the Timed Text WG on the DAPT work https://w3c.github.io/dapt-reqs/#define-audio-mixing-instructions-ad-process-step-4 a profile of TTML for authoring/exchanging AD
00:29:58 <nigel> -> https://w3c.github.io/adpt/#requirements ADPT Requirements
00:30:06 <jcraig> ack ni
00:31:19 <cyril_> nigel: the BBC has a lot of AD
00:31:27 <cyril_> ... it's created for Broadcast
00:31:34 <cyril_> ... so we could not do XAD
00:31:36 <jcraig> ack john
00:31:45 <cyril_> Zakim, close the queue
00:31:45 <Zakim> ok, cyril_, the speaker queue is closed
00:32:02 <cyril_> JohnRochford: I have a demo that I'll post
00:32:14 <cyril_> ... with applicability to sign language
00:32:39 <cyril_> ... as an extension of what you're doing
00:32:47 <cyril_> ... have an inset, picture and picture ASL
00:33:18 <JohnRochford> http://bit.ly/ASLdemo  Users can watch talking-head videos and/or ASL interpreters and/or view closed captioning.
00:33:56 <cyril_> JohnRochford: the deaf community told us that close captions are not enough because they don't read them well
00:34:10 <cyril_> Zakim, generate minutes
00:34:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'generate minutes', cyril_
00:34:17 <cyril_> Zakim, make minutes
00:34:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', cyril_
00:34:18 <vivien> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:34:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-audio-descriptions-minutes.html vivien
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00:36:39 <jcraig> Chrome implementation. https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/3810947
00:36:47 <jcraig> @Travis ^
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00:40:43 <zcorpan> jcraig: can you (or someone else) file a whatwg/html issue about a new <track kind> value?
00:42:49 <zcorpan> descriptions vs extended-descriptions
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00:47:22 <nigel> -> https://bbc.github.io/Adhere Adhere demo of AD in TTML2
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00:58:05 <jcraig> s/[Explaining Ted Lasso's slide]/We’ve got some experience in this area. Apple isn’t just a provider of the playback hardware and software, it’s also a major content distributor, and Apple TV+ original content leads the industry in support for international audio description and caption choices. [Explaining Ted Lasso's slide]/
01:00:07 <jcraig> s/[Explaining Ted Lasso's slide]/This is a screen shot of the audio and caption or subtitle choices of Ted Lasso Season 1 Episode 1. There are 10 spoken languages, and 10 additional AD versions in each of those languages. 20 Audio Tracks in total. [Explaining Ted Lasso's slide]/
01:03:36 <jcraig> s/[Explaining Ted Lasso's slide]/There are also 40 caption (SDH VTT) tracks including those 10 + 30 other languages. We think the Apple TV+ content is the most comprehensive library of described and captioned media. /
01:03:45 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
01:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-audio-descriptions-minutes.html jcraig
01:04:59 <jcraig> s/We think the Apple TV+ content is the most comprehensive library of described and captioned media.//
01:05:02 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
01:05:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-audio-descriptions-minutes.html jcraig
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01:08:31 <ericc> WebKit patch adding support for standard descriptions: https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit/pull/3486
01:08:58 <ericc> WebKit patch adding support for extended descriptions: https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit/pull/4129
01:09:00 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
01:09:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-audio-descriptions-minutes.html jcraig
01:09:21 <jcraig> s/@Travis ^//
01:09:41 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
01:09:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-audio-descriptions-minutes.html jcraig
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21:51:58 <jcraig> zcorpan: missed your request for a whatwg issue yesterday. Do you mean a kind attr value for something like extended-description? I don't know whether that's the right solution. If you're asking for a general "consider this problem" issue, I can do that. If something else, let me know. thanks.
21:52:23 <jcraig> re: "jcraig: can you (or someone else) file a whatwg/html issue about a new <track kind> value?"
21:59:24 <dom> Zakim, bye
21:59:24 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Léonie, (tink), shadi, dsinger, Gary_Katsevman, Nigel_Megitt, JohnRochford, Travis, vivien, zcorpan, mbgower, yonet_, JenniferS
21:59:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #audio-descriptions
21:59:25 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
21:59:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items