IRC log of A11yEdge on 2022-09-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:03:21 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-A11yEdge-irc
14:03:23 [Zakim]
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14:03:27 [dom]
Meeting: Accessibility at the Edge - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:03:29 [dom]
Chair: Janina_Sajka, Lionel_Wolberger, Manu_Sporny, Ken_Nakata
14:03:33 [dom]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/db1d22ce-6ee4-46e8-a81b-b88f1cb54b37#agenda
14:03:39 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:03:41 [dom]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:16:26 [dom]
RRSAgent, stay
14:16:28 [dom]
Zakim, stay
14:16:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'stay', dom
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16:09:27 [Lionel_Wolberger]
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16:12:04 [dom]
agenda+ breakout
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zakim, agenda?
18:03:03 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:03:04 [Zakim]
1. breakout [from dom]
18:03:09 [PaulG]
present+
18:03:20 [PaulG]
scribe: PaulG
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q?
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present+
18:07:04 [MichaelC]
present+
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present+ Irfan_Ali
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present+
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present+
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18:14:16 [Ben_Tillyer]
present+
18:15:08 [PaulG]
zakim, start the meeting
18:15:08 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:15:09 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), PaulG
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18:15:26 [Ben_Tillyer]
present+
18:15:28 [matatk]
present+
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18:15:41 [PaulG]
meeting: Accessibility at the Edge
18:15:41 [ShawnT]
present
18:15:45 [ShawnT]
present+
18:15:51 [shawn]
present+
18:15:54 [dom]
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18:16:48 [PaulG]
adrian: will it be recorded?
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present+
18:16:52 [Wilco]
present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
18:17:53 [PaulG]
zakim, list questions
18:17:53 [Zakim]
I see no questions
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janina: any objection to recording the meeting?
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q?
18:19:24 [jasonjgw]
present+
18:19:34 [FredrikFischer]
present+
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18:21:19 [Fazio]
present+
18:21:53 [atai]
present+
18:21:54 [PaulG]
janina: than you all for coming. We hope to bring some clarity and document the reasons why people have had such strong reactions to overlay technology
18:21:58 [cyns]
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18:22:03 [PaulG]
...and highlight the benefits of the technology
18:22:46 [PaulG]
JudyB: a reminder that community groups are different from W3C chartered work.
18:23:05 [PaulG]
...a CG is not an endorsement of any work by W3C
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18:23:16 [MichaelC]
Port McNeill, North Tower 4th floor
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https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
18:23:31 [Jem]
present+ JaeunJemmaKu
18:23:32 [MichaelC]
s/ Port McNeill, North Tower 4th floor//
18:23:46 [PaulG]
...please treat people with respect. We're very aware of the controversy of this topic.
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18:24:35 [PaulG]
...there hasn't been a report from the CG yet but we hope that this discussion will start the needed process
18:24:45 [PaulG]
...we're under rules of ethical professional conduct
18:25:02 [PaulG]
janina: we will have brief statements from a panel
18:25:03 [JeffS]
present+
18:25:39 [PaulG]
...I'm the facilitator. I have a consultation role with UserWay. We're here to talk technology and problems that technology can both solve and create
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18:26:23 [mbgower]
present+
18:26:33 [alastairc]
present+
18:26:33 [JudyB]
present+
18:27:06 [PaulG]
...I'd like to frame the discussion of technology as tools devoid of a moral orientation (not good or evil but how it's used and implemented)
18:27:08 [Tamas]
present+
18:27:22 [Tamas]
present+
18:27:30 [Tamas]
present+
18:27:50 [PaulG]
...we'd like to itemize the ways in which the technology can help and how it maybe shouldn't be used
18:28:18 [JudyB]
s/any work by W3C/any work by W3C, but sometimes it is an opportunity to explore a topic in the web community/
18:28:26 [PaulG]
...I invited Ken Nakata from IAAP to speak
18:29:05 [PaulG]
ken: there is an ethical side and IAAP was focused on that
18:29:22 [shawn]
International Association of Accessibility Professionals: IAAP https://www.accessibilityassociation.org/s/
18:29:32 [PaulG]
...I just hate dealing with this topic because it seems impossible to not get caught in the crossfire
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18:30:10 [PaulG]
...I was asked to help develop a feedback process and technical guidance draft
18:30:40 [shawn]
[ Axel = Axel Leblois, Chief Executive Officer, G3ict https://www.accessibilityassociation.org/s/about/team ]
18:30:45 [PaulG]
...we delivered a draft in August and IAAP would take it forward
18:31:12 [PaulG]
...one of the principles was to follow the W3C if they create guidance
18:32:30 [PaulG]
...in the terms of the ethical perspective, some of the concern was to make sure there's truthfulness in the statements made by people and companies
18:32:39 [PaulG]
...folding that into the IAAP code of conduct
18:32:41 [JudyB]
s/hasn't been a report from the CG yet/there's a document that labeled 'draft community group report' but there hasn't been CG discussion yet. We hope that this meeting will clarify how people can comment in the CG./
18:32:59 [aardrian]
oops... present+
18:33:03 [PaulG]
...misleading statements can follow the grievance process
18:33:36 [PaulG]
...this applies to statements made to a customer by a vendor as well as what is disclosed to users
18:34:46 [PaulG]
janina: next on the panel is Manu
18:35:48 [PaulG]
Manu: verifiable credentials is a set of technologies that allows you to store and represent certifications
18:36:17 [PaulG]
...we can also use verifiable credentials for people, relationships, item provenance, etc.
18:36:45 [PaulG]
...it's all the documentation, digitized, and placed on the internet
18:37:02 [PaulG]
...when it comes to accessibility we see benefits and dangers
18:37:31 [PaulG]
...we must make sure there's consent and privacy considered with verifiable credentials
18:38:34 [PaulG]
...when thinking about user preferences on a site, VC can help but there's a concern about fingerprinting users
18:38:59 [PaulG]
...we don't want to do the wrong thing. There's a meeting later tomorrow to unpack the requirements from the accessibility community
18:39:16 [PaulG]
Lionel_Wolberger: it grew from a CG, can you expand on how this connects
18:39:25 [mbgower]
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18:39:43 [PaulG]
Manu: it started out as a small community of 6 people, it's now grown to about 500 around the world.
18:40:12 [PaulG]
...it's a success story of W3C being inclusive and growing an idea toward a standard
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18:41:22 [PaulG]
...in the beginning it was chaotic. It was an "evil" technology but we identified how it could be used for good and point out the ways in which is should be managed responsibly
18:41:39 [PaulG]
...there's a lot of similarities between the early days of VC and "overlays" from accessibility
18:41:58 [PaulG]
...with the end goal of benefiting society
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q?
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present+
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18:43:24 [PaulG]
janina: last on our panel is Lionel Wolberger as an active participant of W3C and a representative of a company who produces "overlays"
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18:43:45 [jeanne]
present+
18:43:59 [AWK]
+AWK
18:43:59 [PaulG]
Lionel_Wolberger: what we have in common is a goal to provide access to people with disabilities to the web
18:44:20 [PaulG]
...Ken mentioned that he hates to talk about this and Manu spoke of a lightning rod.
18:45:32 [PaulG]
...I'd love for everyone on get involved with W3C to help build toward consensus on the useful parts of the technology
18:46:37 [PaulG]
janina: there will be full CG available for this discussion, more information will come. If you have comments or questions use the queue
18:46:39 [MichaelC]
ack a
18:46:42 [wendyreid]
q+
18:46:44 [mbgower]
q?
18:46:52 [MichaelC]
ack w
18:46:59 [julierawe]
present+
18:47:35 [PaulG]
wendyreid: I am one of those people who signed that letter and have strong feelings about overlays. I've run into issues with overlays distracting me or causing issues with my use of the web on my computer or phone
18:47:53 [MichaelC]
q+ tamas
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18:48:43 [PaulG]
...I think the investment in overlays could be redirected to how to improve tooling for developers and experiences for small/independent creators who don't have the expertise to develop a user experience
18:49:11 [PaulG]
...I wonder if the people being served are not the people with disabilities but the business owners
18:49:13 [Fazio]
q+
18:49:30 [PaulG]
...I've had people tell me "it's accessible, see the button?"
18:50:16 [manu]
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18:50:19 [mbgower]
q?
18:50:30 [manu]
present+
18:50:48 [MichaelC]
ack t
18:50:56 [PaulG]
tamas: I work in the web accessibility space. My bigger concern is with the AI aspect.
18:51:03 [shadi]
q+
18:51:15 [PaulG]
...things like live regions I don't think overlays will ever be able to solve that
18:51:26 [JudyB]
q?
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18:51:31 [wendyreid]
+1 to Tamas, humans are important
18:51:31 [PaulG]
...human nature won't be solved by it
18:51:32 [MichaelC]
ack f
18:51:52 [aardrian]
q+
18:52:27 [PaulG]
Fazio: to expand on what Wendy said, any technology could be useful but it's in the messaging. We need ethical messaging not marketing speak.
18:52:48 [MichaelC]
ack s
18:52:52 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q+
18:52:52 [PaulG]
Fazio: let's make sure we're being authentic, clear, and ethical. It's not a one-stop-shop to fix everything
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18:53:12 [PaulG]
shadi: at the AGWG there's a definition of an overlay
18:53:31 [PaulG]
...browsers already fix a lot of bad code. Is that an overlay?
18:53:57 [PaulG]
...if I have automatic captioning, it's not a replacement for human captioning, is that an overlay?
18:54:25 [PaulG]
...I think people think their site is accessible when they have an accessibility statement.
18:54:49 [PaulG]
...the work we're doing is not just technical but also social
18:54:50 [MichaelC]
ack a
18:55:12 [PaulG]
adrian: I've been very vocal about this topic
18:55:38 [PaulG]
...technology can be used for good but it comes down to how it's used, how it's pitched, and how it affects users.
18:55:46 [alastairc]
q+
18:56:20 [PaulG]
...all the evidence shows it's not good. When you focus on the outcomes, I can't support it. It's not the technology, it's the outcomes. That's what matters.
18:56:39 [PaulG]
...if the CG doesn't discuss the outcomes, people won't get behind it.
18:56:46 [sarah_h]
q+
18:56:48 [MichaelC]
ack li
18:56:55 [Jennie_Delisi_]
q+
18:56:55 [PaulG]
...it's about users not a company settling complaints.
18:57:43 [PaulG]
Lionel_Wolberger: imagine a company called Vague Links who can enhance "read more" links for people with disabilities
18:57:57 [Wilco]
q+ to talk about browsers
18:58:21 [PaulG]
...image that the technical implementation wouldn't be that difficult. "read more" becomes "read more about..." based on the context
18:59:13 [PaulG]
...they sell it or give it away it will end up on thousands of sites. Wendy mentioned the "button" annoys them. But this technology has no button but it's called an overlay
18:59:34 [PaulG]
...we want to separate the issues to have an honest discussion.
18:59:36 [MichaelC]
ack al
18:59:40 [manu]
q+ to ask about applying "five star" Linked Data to a11y, and modifying existing compliance programs?
19:00:23 [PaulG]
alistair: +1 to Adrian's comments.
19:00:41 [PaulG]
...if a solution applies uniformly and isn't customized wouldn't that be better suited for the user agents
19:01:00 [MichaelC]
ack sa
19:01:00 [PaulG]
...if it is customized, then it should be baked into the construction of the website
19:01:06 [Wilco]
q-
19:01:11 [CurtBellew]
+1 to Alistair
19:01:15 [jamesn]
+1 alistair
19:01:45 [PaulG]
sarah_h: this talk of separating technology from politics worries me because technology is inherently political. To me it's extremely important.
19:01:54 [wendyreid]
+1000
19:02:16 [aardrian]
big +1 to Sarah
19:02:24 [MichaelC]
ack je
19:02:28 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q?
19:02:34 [PaulG]
...there is no "only technical" solution. Where is the accountability to disabled people instead of society and marketing pressures?
19:02:41 [Jem]
q?
19:03:16 [jasonjgw]
q+
19:04:10 [MichaelC]
ack ma
19:04:10 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to ask about applying "five star" Linked Data to a11y, and modifying existing compliance programs?
19:04:20 [wendyreid]
+1 to strongly considering the needs of the community
19:04:21 [PaulG]
Jennie_Delisi_: I want to clarify the terms and definitions that apply to this group. This will benefit those who are new to the technology as well as those with disabilities including anyone with newly acquired disabilities. I'm a member of COGA and want to ensure people with congitive and learning disabilites can participate in this discussion
19:04:35 [PaulG]
Manu: getting more specific about each item will serve the group well
19:04:50 [Fazio]
Yeah we heard Lionel give examples of different kinds of what are perceived as overlays. Important to have a common definition
19:04:56 [PaulG]
...I am hearing some level of agreement. Why can't we build better tools for authors?
19:05:27 [PaulG]
...if we target them as developers instead of the end user, maybe we do a better job than the overlay.
19:05:49 [PaulG]
...issues need to be broken apart and avoid using all-encompassing terms.
19:06:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q?
19:06:13 [PaulG]
...Fixing the problem upstream is worth talking about.
19:06:22 [shadi]
+1 to defining the terms we are using because they mean different things to different people
19:07:08 [PaulG]
...at one point with linked data, there was a shift in how it was discussed to be progressive and iterative. I wonder if there are ways of breaking down the problem into bits for the low bar, then the higher bar, and then higher again
19:07:08 [Makoto]
+1 to shadi
19:07:29 [JohnRochford]
q+
19:07:33 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q+
19:07:36 [MichaelC]
ack ja
19:07:37 [PaulG]
...so when someone reaches for "an overlay" they have step-by-step approaches to improve their site and avoid the nightmare scenario
19:08:15 [PaulG]
jasonjgw: it seems to me the challenge is how to integrate ML/AI into the processes of content creation and presenting it to the user.
19:08:33 [MichaelC]
q+ to give time warning
19:08:34 [Irfan_Ali]
I agree with the idea of defining the term properly in-order to make it clear to everyone.
19:08:41 [Irfan_Ali]
+1 to Shadi
19:08:58 [PaulG]
...in some situations it is impossible for a person to intervene in real time with autocaptions but it could be used in the first phase of a production then later corrected
19:09:53 [PaulG]
...I think it raises a series of questions about transcoding technology for assistive technology
19:10:01 [JudyB]
q?
19:10:20 [MichaelC]
ack jo
19:10:22 [MichaelC]
q-
19:10:25 [PaulG]
...how are we going to integrate this into the experience of authoring and consuming content
19:10:54 [PaulG]
JohnRochford: "nothing about us without us" any solution or technology as to be co-developed by people with disabilities. I'd like to see evidence from companies that they're doing that.
19:11:05 [PaulG]
...and that it's successful for the end users
19:11:08 [MichaelC]
ack li
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q+
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19:12:30 [PaulG]
Lionel_Wolberger: 2-3 very different products were mentioned and they were lumped together. Automated remediation, user selected enhanced presentation, and developer tools and monitoring
19:12:33 [aardrian]
-1 to product pitch
19:12:47 [PaulG]
...we make multiple products and you may not if these are in use
19:13:01 [MichaelC]
ack wi
19:13:12 [PaulG]
...i'm just pointing out that this disambiguation is important for the industry to develop this technology
19:14:13 [shadi]
q+
19:14:16 [PaulG]
Wilco: I think the need for overlays came from remediation. Tools could be better. Browsers could step up to improve on accessibility. What worries me is putting the decision in the hands of the website owners rather than the people who actually need these technologies.
19:14:27 [MichaelC]
ack sh
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rrsagent, make minutes
19:14:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-A11yEdge-minutes.html Irfan_Ali
19:15:34 [MichaelC]
zakim, close queue
19:15:34 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC, the speaker queue is closed
19:15:45 [PaulG]
shadi: I wish more ATMs were easier to use. (inaudible)
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rrsagent, make minutes
19:16:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-A11yEdge-minutes.html matatk
19:16:43 [PaulG]
janina: we have more to discuss. But this was productive to get the process started.
19:16:53 [mbgower]
Thank you, everyone
19:17:00 [shawn]
[ lots of "thanks for the discussion" in IRC ]
19:17:12 [PaulG]
janina: we will make the recoding available. Thank you all.
19:17:29 [PaulG]
janina: we're done for today but we're not done.
19:17:41 [matatk]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:17:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-A11yEdge-minutes.html matatk
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21:58:59 [dom]
Zakim, bye
21:58:59 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been PaulG, gpellegrino, MichaelC, Irfan_Ali, wendyreid, Lionel_Wolberger, Ben_Tillyer, matatk, ShawnT, shawn, Adam_Page, Wilco,
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RRSAgent, bye
21:59:00 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items