14:03:21 RRSAgent has joined #A11yEdge 14:03:21 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-A11yEdge-irc 14:03:23 Zakim has joined #A11yEdge 14:03:27 Meeting: Accessibility at the Edge - TPAC 2022 breakout 14:03:29 Chair: Janina_Sajka, Lionel_Wolberger, Manu_Sporny, Ken_Nakata 14:03:33 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/db1d22ce-6ee4-46e8-a81b-b88f1cb54b37#agenda 14:03:39 RRSAgent, make log public 14:03:41 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 14:16:26 RRSAgent, stay 14:16:28 Zakim, stay 14:16:28 I don't understand 'stay', dom 15:15:03 dom has joined #A11yEdge 16:09:27 Lionel_Wolberger has joined #A11yEdge 16:12:04 agenda+ breakout 17:31:07 PaulG has joined #A11yEdge 18:03:03 zakim, agenda? 18:03:03 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 18:03:04 1. breakout [from dom] 18:03:09 present+ 18:03:20 scribe: PaulG 18:06:29 Lionel_Wolberger has joined #A11yEdge 18:06:29 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 18:06:36 q? 18:06:43 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 18:06:48 present+ 18:07:04 present+ 18:07:14 Irfan_Ali has joined #a11yedge 18:07:28 present+ Irfan_Ali 18:09:32 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 18:09:42 Amanda_ has joined #A11yEdge 18:10:01 MichaelC__ has joined #a11yedge 18:11:11 wendyreid has joined #a11yedge 18:11:19 present+ 18:11:20 Ben_Tillyer has joined #a11yedge 18:11:25 present+ 18:11:39 matatk has joined #a11yedge 18:13:17 Massa has joined #A11yEdge 18:13:53 JudyB has joined #a11yedge 18:14:16 present+ 18:15:08 zakim, start the meeting 18:15:08 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:15:09 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), PaulG 18:15:20 shawn has joined #A11yEdge 18:15:23 Wilco has joined #A11yEdge 18:15:26 present+ 18:15:28 present+ 18:15:34 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 18:15:41 meeting: Accessibility at the Edge 18:15:41 present 18:15:45 present+ 18:15:51 present+ 18:15:54 dom has joined #A11yEdge 18:16:06 Jennie_Delisi_ has joined #A11yEdge 18:16:15 Adam_Page has joined #A11yEdge 18:16:48 adrian: will it be recorded? 18:16:49 Makoto has joined #A11yEdge 18:16:50 present+ 18:16:52 present+ 18:16:52 present+ 18:16:58 Francis_Storr has joined #A11yEdge 18:16:58 present+ 18:17:06 JohnRochford has joined #a11yedge 18:17:08 present+ 18:17:09 plh has joined #a11yEdge 18:17:10 present+ 18:17:11 Travis has joined #a11yEdge 18:17:13 present+ 18:17:14 present+ 18:17:16 present+ 18:17:21 CurtBellew has joined #A11yEdge 18:17:21 aardrian has joined #A11yEdge 18:17:27 present+ 18:17:37 JoeAndrieu has joined #a11yEdge 18:17:48 present+ 18:17:53 zakim, list questions 18:17:53 I see no questions 18:17:59 atai has joined #A11yEdge 18:18:01 JeffS has joined #A11yEdge 18:18:18 janina: any objection to recording the meeting? 18:18:20 alastairc has joined #A11yEdge 18:18:53 jasonjgw has joined #a11yedge 18:19:12 FredrikFischer has joined #A11yEdge 18:19:20 q? 18:19:24 present+ 18:19:34 present+ 18:20:59 Fazio has joined #a11yedge 18:21:07 jamesn has joined #A11yEdge 18:21:19 present+ 18:21:53 present+ 18:21:54 janina: than you all for coming. We hope to bring some clarity and document the reasons why people have had such strong reactions to overlay technology 18:21:58 cyns has joined #A11yEdge 18:22:03 ...and highlight the benefits of the technology 18:22:46 JudyB: a reminder that community groups are different from W3C chartered work. 18:23:05 ...a CG is not an endorsement of any work by W3C 18:23:06 Jem has joined #A11yEdge 18:23:16 Port McNeill, North Tower 4th floor 18:23:22 https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/ 18:23:31 present+ JaeunJemmaKu 18:23:32 s/ Port McNeill, North Tower 4th floor// 18:23:46 ...please treat people with respect. We're very aware of the controversy of this topic. 18:24:02 Tamas has joined #A11yEdge 18:24:17 rh_ has joined #A11yEdge 18:24:35 ...there hasn't been a report from the CG yet but we hope that this discussion will start the needed process 18:24:45 ...we're under rules of ethical professional conduct 18:25:02 janina: we will have brief statements from a panel 18:25:03 present+ 18:25:39 ...I'm the facilitator. I have a consultation role with UserWay. We're here to talk technology and problems that technology can both solve and create 18:26:15 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 18:26:23 present+ 18:26:33 present+ 18:26:33 present+ 18:27:06 ...I'd like to frame the discussion of technology as tools devoid of a moral orientation (not good or evil but how it's used and implemented) 18:27:08 present+ 18:27:22 present+ 18:27:30 present+ 18:27:50 ...we'd like to itemize the ways in which the technology can help and how it maybe shouldn't be used 18:28:18 s/any work by W3C/any work by W3C, but sometimes it is an opportunity to explore a topic in the web community/ 18:28:26 ...I invited Ken Nakata from IAAP to speak 18:29:05 ken: there is an ethical side and IAAP was focused on that 18:29:22 International Association of Accessibility Professionals: IAAP https://www.accessibilityassociation.org/s/ 18:29:32 ...I just hate dealing with this topic because it seems impossible to not get caught in the crossfire 18:29:56 jcraig has joined #A11yEdge 18:30:01 julierawe has joined #A11yEdge 18:30:10 ...I was asked to help develop a feedback process and technical guidance draft 18:30:40 [ Axel = Axel Leblois, Chief Executive Officer, G3ict https://www.accessibilityassociation.org/s/about/team ] 18:30:45 ...we delivered a draft in August and IAAP would take it forward 18:31:12 ...one of the principles was to follow the W3C if they create guidance 18:32:30 ...in the terms of the ethical perspective, some of the concern was to make sure there's truthfulness in the statements made by people and companies 18:32:39 ...folding that into the IAAP code of conduct 18:32:41 s/hasn't been a report from the CG yet/there's a document that labeled 'draft community group report' but there hasn't been CG discussion yet. We hope that this meeting will clarify how people can comment in the CG./ 18:32:59 oops... present+ 18:33:03 ...misleading statements can follow the grievance process 18:33:36 ...this applies to statements made to a customer by a vendor as well as what is disclosed to users 18:34:46 janina: next on the panel is Manu 18:35:48 Manu: verifiable credentials is a set of technologies that allows you to store and represent certifications 18:36:17 ...we can also use verifiable credentials for people, relationships, item provenance, etc. 18:36:45 ...it's all the documentation, digitized, and placed on the internet 18:37:02 ...when it comes to accessibility we see benefits and dangers 18:37:31 ...we must make sure there's consent and privacy considered with verifiable credentials 18:38:34 ...when thinking about user preferences on a site, VC can help but there's a concern about fingerprinting users 18:38:59 ...we don't want to do the wrong thing. There's a meeting later tomorrow to unpack the requirements from the accessibility community 18:39:16 Lionel_Wolberger: it grew from a CG, can you expand on how this connects 18:39:25 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 18:39:43 Manu: it started out as a small community of 6 people, it's now grown to about 500 around the world. 18:40:12 ...it's a success story of W3C being inclusive and growing an idea toward a standard 18:41:03 dlibby has joined #A11yEdge 18:41:22 ...in the beginning it was chaotic. It was an "evil" technology but we identified how it could be used for good and point out the ways in which is should be managed responsibly 18:41:39 ...there's a lot of similarities between the early days of VC and "overlays" from accessibility 18:41:58 ...with the end goal of benefiting society 18:42:39 takashi_ has joined #A11yEdge 18:42:43 q? 18:43:05 shadi has joined #a11yedge 18:43:13 present+ 18:43:24 jeanne has joined #a11yedge 18:43:24 janina: last on our panel is Lionel Wolberger as an active participant of W3C and a representative of a company who produces "overlays" 18:43:41 AWK has joined #a11yedge 18:43:45 present+ 18:43:59 +AWK 18:43:59 Lionel_Wolberger: what we have in common is a goal to provide access to people with disabilities to the web 18:44:20 ...Ken mentioned that he hates to talk about this and Manu spoke of a lightning rod. 18:45:32 ...I'd love for everyone on get involved with W3C to help build toward consensus on the useful parts of the technology 18:46:37 janina: there will be full CG available for this discussion, more information will come. If you have comments or questions use the queue 18:46:39 ack a 18:46:42 q+ 18:46:44 q? 18:46:52 ack w 18:46:59 present+ 18:47:35 wendyreid: I am one of those people who signed that letter and have strong feelings about overlays. I've run into issues with overlays distracting me or causing issues with my use of the web on my computer or phone 18:47:53 q+ tamas 18:48:14 dmontalvo has joined #a11yedge 18:48:43 ...I think the investment in overlays could be redirected to how to improve tooling for developers and experiences for small/independent creators who don't have the expertise to develop a user experience 18:49:11 ...I wonder if the people being served are not the people with disabilities but the business owners 18:49:13 q+ 18:49:30 ...I've had people tell me "it's accessible, see the button?" 18:50:16 manu has joined #a11yedge 18:50:19 q? 18:50:30 present+ 18:50:48 ack t 18:50:56 tamas: I work in the web accessibility space. My bigger concern is with the AI aspect. 18:51:03 q+ 18:51:15 ...things like live regions I don't think overlays will ever be able to solve that 18:51:26 q? 18:51:31 MarkMcCarthy has joined #A11yEdge 18:51:31 +1 to Tamas, humans are important 18:51:31 ...human nature won't be solved by it 18:51:32 ack f 18:51:52 q+ 18:52:27 Fazio: to expand on what Wendy said, any technology could be useful but it's in the messaging. We need ethical messaging not marketing speak. 18:52:48 ack s 18:52:52 q+ 18:52:52 Fazio: let's make sure we're being authentic, clear, and ethical. It's not a one-stop-shop to fix everything 18:52:56 sarah_h has joined #a11yedge 18:53:12 shadi: at the AGWG there's a definition of an overlay 18:53:31 ...browsers already fix a lot of bad code. Is that an overlay? 18:53:57 ...if I have automatic captioning, it's not a replacement for human captioning, is that an overlay? 18:54:25 ...I think people think their site is accessible when they have an accessibility statement. 18:54:49 ...the work we're doing is not just technical but also social 18:54:50 ack a 18:55:12 adrian: I've been very vocal about this topic 18:55:38 ...technology can be used for good but it comes down to how it's used, how it's pitched, and how it affects users. 18:55:46 q+ 18:56:20 ...all the evidence shows it's not good. When you focus on the outcomes, I can't support it. It's not the technology, it's the outcomes. That's what matters. 18:56:39 ...if the CG doesn't discuss the outcomes, people won't get behind it. 18:56:46 q+ 18:56:48 ack li 18:56:55 q+ 18:56:55 ...it's about users not a company settling complaints. 18:57:43 Lionel_Wolberger: imagine a company called Vague Links who can enhance "read more" links for people with disabilities 18:57:57 q+ to talk about browsers 18:58:21 ...image that the technical implementation wouldn't be that difficult. "read more" becomes "read more about..." based on the context 18:59:13 ...they sell it or give it away it will end up on thousands of sites. Wendy mentioned the "button" annoys them. But this technology has no button but it's called an overlay 18:59:34 ...we want to separate the issues to have an honest discussion. 18:59:36 ack al 18:59:40 q+ to ask about applying "five star" Linked Data to a11y, and modifying existing compliance programs? 19:00:23 alistair: +1 to Adrian's comments. 19:00:41 ...if a solution applies uniformly and isn't customized wouldn't that be better suited for the user agents 19:01:00 ack sa 19:01:00 ...if it is customized, then it should be baked into the construction of the website 19:01:06 q- 19:01:11 +1 to Alistair 19:01:15 +1 alistair 19:01:45 sarah_h: this talk of separating technology from politics worries me because technology is inherently political. To me it's extremely important. 19:01:54 +1000 19:02:16 big +1 to Sarah 19:02:24 ack je 19:02:28 q? 19:02:34 ...there is no "only technical" solution. Where is the accountability to disabled people instead of society and marketing pressures? 19:02:41 q? 19:03:16 q+ 19:04:10 ack ma 19:04:10 manu, you wanted to ask about applying "five star" Linked Data to a11y, and modifying existing compliance programs? 19:04:20 +1 to strongly considering the needs of the community 19:04:21 Jennie_Delisi_: I want to clarify the terms and definitions that apply to this group. This will benefit those who are new to the technology as well as those with disabilities including anyone with newly acquired disabilities. I'm a member of COGA and want to ensure people with congitive and learning disabilites can participate in this discussion 19:04:35 Manu: getting more specific about each item will serve the group well 19:04:50 Yeah we heard Lionel give examples of different kinds of what are perceived as overlays. Important to have a common definition 19:04:56 ...I am hearing some level of agreement. Why can't we build better tools for authors? 19:05:27 ...if we target them as developers instead of the end user, maybe we do a better job than the overlay. 19:05:49 ...issues need to be broken apart and avoid using all-encompassing terms. 19:06:09 q? 19:06:13 ...Fixing the problem upstream is worth talking about. 19:06:22 +1 to defining the terms we are using because they mean different things to different people 19:07:08 ...at one point with linked data, there was a shift in how it was discussed to be progressive and iterative. I wonder if there are ways of breaking down the problem into bits for the low bar, then the higher bar, and then higher again 19:07:08 +1 to shadi 19:07:29 q+ 19:07:33 q+ 19:07:36 ack ja 19:07:37 ...so when someone reaches for "an overlay" they have step-by-step approaches to improve their site and avoid the nightmare scenario 19:08:15 jasonjgw: it seems to me the challenge is how to integrate ML/AI into the processes of content creation and presenting it to the user. 19:08:33 q+ to give time warning 19:08:34 I agree with the idea of defining the term properly in-order to make it clear to everyone. 19:08:41 +1 to Shadi 19:08:58 ...in some situations it is impossible for a person to intervene in real time with autocaptions but it could be used in the first phase of a production then later corrected 19:09:53 ...I think it raises a series of questions about transcoding technology for assistive technology 19:10:01 q? 19:10:20 ack jo 19:10:22 q- 19:10:25 ...how are we going to integrate this into the experience of authoring and consuming content 19:10:54 JohnRochford: "nothing about us without us" any solution or technology as to be co-developed by people with disabilities. I'd like to see evidence from companies that they're doing that. 19:11:05 ...and that it's successful for the end users 19:11:08 ack li 19:11:19 q+ 19:11:55 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 19:12:30 Lionel_Wolberger: 2-3 very different products were mentioned and they were lumped together. Automated remediation, user selected enhanced presentation, and developer tools and monitoring 19:12:33 -1 to product pitch 19:12:47 ...we make multiple products and you may not if these are in use 19:13:01 ack wi 19:13:12 ...i'm just pointing out that this disambiguation is important for the industry to develop this technology 19:14:13 q+ 19:14:16 Wilco: I think the need for overlays came from remediation. Tools could be better. Browsers could step up to improve on accessibility. What worries me is putting the decision in the hands of the website owners rather than the people who actually need these technologies. 19:14:27 ack sh 19:14:34 rrsagent, make minutes 19:14:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-A11yEdge-minutes.html Irfan_Ali 19:15:34 zakim, close queue 19:15:34 ok, MichaelC, the speaker queue is closed 19:15:45 shadi: I wish more ATMs were easier to use. (inaudible) 19:15:47 Amanda has joined #A11yEdge 19:16:06 rrsagent, make minutes 19:16:06 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-A11yEdge-minutes.html matatk 19:16:43 janina: we have more to discuss. But this was productive to get the process started. 19:16:53 Thank you, everyone 19:17:00 [ lots of "thanks for the discussion" in IRC ] 19:17:12 janina: we will make the recoding available. Thank you all. 19:17:29 janina: we're done for today but we're not done. 19:17:41 rrsagent, make minutes 19:17:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-A11yEdge-minutes.html matatk 19:18:53 aardrian has left #A11yEdge 19:23:55 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 19:25:02 jasonjgw has left #A11yEdge 19:31:34 atai has joined #A11yEdge 19:36:11 plh has left #A11yEdge 19:43:09 shawn has left #A11yEdge 19:44:31 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 19:48:26 atai has joined #A11yEdge 20:10:31 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 20:15:10 dom has joined #A11yEdge 20:30:16 dom has joined #A11yEdge 20:30:42 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 20:31:45 jeanne has left #A11yEdge 20:34:38 matatk has joined #a11yedge 20:34:48 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 20:35:02 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 20:36:29 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 20:52:01 atai has joined #A11yEdge 21:00:20 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 21:07:07 dom__ has joined #A11yEdge 21:27:02 atai has joined #A11yEdge 21:33:35 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 21:37:23 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 21:48:04 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 21:53:04 dom has joined #A11yEdge 21:57:26 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 22:00:09 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 22:05:39 atai has joined #A11yEdge 22:16:03 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 22:25:13 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 22:31:37 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 23:13:23 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 23:22:30 dom has joined #A11yEdge 23:31:12 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 23:47:39 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 23:51:32 gpellegrino has joined #A11yEdge 23:54:41 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 00:34:58 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 00:36:26 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 00:40:48 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 05:22:18 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 05:22:43 ThompsonS has joined #A11yEdge 06:39:43 atai has joined #A11yEdge 07:08:29 atai has joined #A11yEdge 12:57:13 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 14:38:06 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 14:58:23 atai has joined #A11yEdge 15:01:17 wendyreid has joined #a11yedge 15:01:59 atai has left #A11yEdge 15:37:14 MichaelC__ has joined #a11yedge 15:37:17 AWK has joined #a11yedge 15:38:15 micro__ has joined #a11yedge 15:48:57 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 15:51:37 jamesn has joined #A11yEdge 15:57:14 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 16:04:03 Jem has joined #A11yEdge 16:12:05 wendyreid has left #A11yEdge 16:14:58 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 17:02:39 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 17:06:42 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 17:30:07 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 17:30:57 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 17:32:55 mbgower_ has joined #a11yedge 17:33:29 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 18:31:39 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 19:32:57 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 19:50:02 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 19:52:41 MichaelC has joined #a11yedge 19:58:23 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 20:02:00 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 20:37:34 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 21:15:02 dom has joined #A11yEdge 21:28:56 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 21:33:05 mbgower has joined #a11yedge 21:48:14 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 21:58:33 ShawnT has joined #A11yEdge 21:58:59 Zakim, bye 21:58:59 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been PaulG, gpellegrino, MichaelC, Irfan_Ali, wendyreid, Lionel_Wolberger, Ben_Tillyer, matatk, ShawnT, shawn, Adam_Page, Wilco, 21:58:59 Zakim has left #A11yEdge 21:59:00 RRSAgent, bye 21:59:00 I see no action items