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15:42:48 <PeterR> start meeting
15:47:37 <PeterR> present+
15:47:50 <PeterR> present+ PeterR
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15:57:06 <PeterR> scribe
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15:58:21 <satakagi> present+ satakagi
15:58:27 <bkardell_> present+
16:00:05 <rego> present+
16:01:08 <PeterR> Hi all, difficulties getting zoom started for all, please stand by...
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16:03:55 <jvanulde> PeterR: Welcome to Vancouver
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16:07:19 <zcorpan> present+
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16:09:28 <jvanulde> PeterR: Presenting video introducing community group...
16:15:28 <jvanulde> PeterR: Opens floor to questions...
16:16:34 <PeterR> q?
16:17:33 <jvanulde> q?
16:18:38 <PeterR> zcorpan: work on web maps research summary
16:18:59 <PeterR> zcorpan: research done for NRCan
16:19:18 <PeterR> zcorpan: httparchive used by browser implementers
16:19:58 <PeterR> zcorpan: static analysis, httparchive 7.5M pages crawled monthly.  Data on html,css, js on every page.
16:20:10 <PeterR> zcorpan: no leaf pages, only front pages
16:20:20 <zcorpan> s/leaf/deep/
16:20:57 <PeterR> zcorpan: how many use, how they use maps: 16% of all pages use maps.  Video for example is on 4%, Youtube 10%, still less than maps
16:21:14 <PeterR> zcorpan: 22% of maps use features / locations
16:21:41 <PeterR> zcorpan:  range between simple and complex use cases
16:22:05 <PeterR> zcorpan: survey of web devs who use maps, make web maps.  Promoted widely on Web.
16:22:13 <PeterR> zcorpan: received 78 responses.
16:22:45 <PeterR> zcorpan: key finding is that implementing interactions is the most difficult aspect.
16:22:49 <jvanulde> q?
16:22:55 <PeterR> zcorpan: no beginner friendly solutions
16:23:03 <PeterR> zcorpan: map bounds
16:23:24 <PeterR> zcorpan: people want to make maps accessible, but don't have the tools or don't know of them to do so
16:23:39 <PeterR> zcorpan: performance was covered, webgl power use
16:24:05 <PeterR> zcorpan: pan / zoom interactions, ability to define css for maps
16:24:46 <PeterR> zcorpan: from our expert interviews; key finding capability for better accessibility needs more work
16:25:04 <PeterR> zcorpan: switch projections on the fly needed
16:25:17 <PeterR> zcorpan: difficult to integrate maps into larger applications.
16:25:30 <PeterR> zcorpan: takeaways are perf, a11y
16:26:09 <PeterR> zcorpan: also interviewed browser implementers.  <model> element is for viewing 3d models on a smaller scale / AR
16:26:49 <PeterR> zcorpan: interactive elements / attributes.  Camera, without giving the page access to private info.
16:27:06 <PeterR> zcorpan: overlap of functionality with web maps, interaction may be different.
16:27:29 <PeterR> zcorpan: takeaway from browser implementers: want buy-in from mapping frameworks.
16:27:53 <PeterR> zcorpan: potential solutions: 3 starting points
16:28:02 <PeterR> zcorpan: start with mapml proposal, iterate
16:28:19 <PeterR> zcorpan: start w model element
16:29:08 <PeterR> zcorpan: 3 iterative approach. Bocoup recommends iterative approach
16:29:42 <PeterR> zcorpan: roadmap recommendation, goals and milestones.
16:30:04 <PeterR> zcorpan: a11y, perf, privacy
16:30:17 <PeterR> zcorpan: engage key stakeholders
16:30:41 <PeterR> zcorpan: have started doing some of the research. close gaps in Web map frameworks
16:31:15 <PeterR> zcorpan: polyfill.  Open to working with Igalia to implement in browser engines
16:31:41 <PeterR> zcorpan: update mdn documentation
16:32:16 <PeterR> zcorpan: roadmap in more detail - need a link for the record here
16:33:10 <PeterR> zcorpan: reviews detailed road map.
16:37:25 <PeterR> zcorpan: roadmap -> https://static1.bocoup.com/assets/2022/06/08184700/Maps-for-HTML-Roadmap-March-2022-1.pdf
16:38:37 <jvanulde> q?
16:38:39 <bkardell_> q+
16:39:11 <PeterR> ack bkardell_
16:39:57 <PeterR> bkardell_: astounding amount of web maps; everybody knows that you rarely see the map on a homepage, usually assume it's buried in a site
16:40:13 <PeterR> bkardell_: possible to assume it's even higher than 16%
16:40:43 <PeterR> bkardell_: can't think of anything that is as widely useful. Hope that we can find people interested in solving these problems.
16:41:09 <PeterR> bkardell_: pan/zoom is so valuable in many contexts, not just maps.
16:41:42 <PeterR> bkardell_: also, my comment is that when you present something like this, it seems like something that's not going to get done.
16:42:24 <PeterR> bkardell_: other small things by comparison take a long time.  The thing that I like about the iterative approach is that we may be able to find value and deliver it as we go.
16:43:13 <PeterR> zcorpan: very good point; for each capability that we have we might be able to deliver incrementally.  Even if that's all we do it will be worth the effort.
16:43:41 <PeterR> bkardell_: html5 took many years, but we got pieces of it along the way.  This plan is really good, i agree with it.
16:43:57 <PeterR> q?
16:44:42 <PeterR> present+ eparsons
16:45:15 <PeterR> eparsons: To be completely honest, Google doesn't have a view on this topic specifically
16:45:31 <PeterR> eparsons: need to reframe what the problem is
16:45:56 <PeterR> eparsons: put a map on a web page, simple store finder
16:46:19 <PeterR> eparsons: Google sees this as a solved problem.
16:46:37 <PeterR> eparsons: so I think we need to re-state the problem.
16:47:11 <PeterR> eparsons: The future of the map is not a map, necessarily.  It's about other ways of providing geospatial information.
16:47:29 <PeterR> ... prob. not something that looks solely like a cartographic map.
16:47:43 <PeterR> ... maps online at the moment aren't good citizens of the web.
16:47:59 <PeterR> ... takes a person with geographical training to make them
16:48:29 <PeterR> ... from pov of an autonomous agent, what they see in the JavaScipt is invisible i.e. nothing
16:48:43 <PeterR> ... not machine-interpretable
16:48:55 <PeterR> ... from my perspective, that's the problem that we need to solve
16:49:32 <PeterR> ... how do we describe the location semantics in an html web page and make it available to the autonomous agent
16:50:00 <PeterR> ... in other words, what is actually displayed on the map.
16:50:27 <PeterR> ... should not fall into the trap, that we often do in our industry, of asking the question of the wrong people.
16:50:44 <PeterR> ... by talking to GIS people, you'll get a bias in the answer.
16:51:19 <PeterR> ... black hole of geospatial content
16:52:09 <PeterR> ... putting geospatial on the Web; OGC has struggled with this fundamental problem: Web service standards are opaque to the rest of the internet.
16:52:40 <PeterR> ... unless you already understand these services, it's impossible to understand the content
16:53:14 <PeterR> ... W3C / OGC worked together to produce SDW Best Practices document, to make geo more webby.
16:53:41 <PeterR> ... this has morphed into Cloud native geo content
16:53:52 <PeterR> ... vector tile date in cloud native approach.
16:54:48 <PeterR> ... from server POV, metadata should be easier to interpret
16:55:34 <PeterR> ... need a simple tagging for maps, this is the fundamental problem.
16:56:04 <PeterR> ... will help accessibility, valuable geospatial information is largely invisible in its native form
16:56:29 <PeterR> q+
16:57:09 <bkardell_> q+
16:58:27 <zcorpan> ack PeterR
16:58:38 <zcorpan> ack bkardell_
16:58:38 <PeterR> ack bkardell_
16:59:30 <jvanulde> q?
17:00:43 <boaz> q+
17:02:35 <zcorpan> q+
17:02:59 <PeterR> bkardell_: what are you going to render?
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17:06:09 <jvanulde_> q?
17:06:12 <PeterR> eparson: relative geographical terms are important
17:06:19 <PeterR> ack boaz
17:06:31 <PeterR> boaz: alt text for maps
17:07:26 <PeterR> boaz: shares web page with leaflet map
17:08:11 <PeterR> boaz: descriptions of features in "alt text" alternate page
17:11:25 <PeterR> boaz: maps are visualizations
17:14:22 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Regarding the map of Denver... we know it's Denver from the coordinates
17:15:21 <jvanulde_> PeterR: The BBOX coordinates are not available to indexing engines
17:16:34 <jvanulde_> edparsons: we are looking at this at our own level of abstraction, where is Denver? We can't rely simply on coordinates
17:16:50 <PeterR> eparsons: a sighted person can see that the map is a map of Denver, but how is that information exposed to machines?
17:17:09 <boaz> q?
17:17:46 <PeterR> ack zcorpan
17:18:29 <PeterR> zcorpan: a11y is a top priority, but it's not the only problem.  For example, performance was something that people brought up, as not sufficient for maps.
17:19:04 <PeterR> zcorpan: scrolling is a fundamental feature of how browsers work.  panning and zooming widget in the browser is needed.
17:20:49 <jvanulde_> PeterR: I want highlight the work that has been done at a technical level in the community group
17:24:38 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Use Cases and Requirements for Standardizing Web Map document was developed
17:25:38 <jvanulde_> PeterR: A matrix of capabilities was developed, allowing us to show that what has been implemented
17:26:26 <jvanulde_> PeterR: User documentation ongoing including interactive examples for the elements
17:27:11 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Documentation aimed at web developers
17:29:06 <jvanulde_> PeterR: GeoJSON API implementation in progress
17:29:40 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Chrome and Edge extension is available in developer mode
17:31:05 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Extension supports localization according the browser settings
17:32:50 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Extension supports accessibility preferences
17:34:49 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Exploring using links to navigate e.g. pan/zoom
17:35:38 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Geospatial linking to create a web of maps
17:36:28 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Improvements to the custom projections API
17:38:21 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Feature captions for accessibility, tab order is respected, you can navigate into the features in the map by tabbing
17:39:38 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Feature captions presented as a tooltip in the map, features are sorted by distance ascending from centre of the map
17:40:53 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Selecting the feature and hitting enter will provide feature properties in a popup on the map
17:43:03 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Accessible layer control, worked to make it more accessible, keyboard navigable and screen reader compatible
17:44:52 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Feature index, can be enabled in the page, a keyboard navigation technique, allows one to drill down into features
17:45:01 <jvanulde_> q?
17:46:49 <jvanulde_> PeterR: It's really important to get your organization to join our Community Group
17:47:01 <jvanulde_> q?
17:47:51 <jvanulde_> PeterR: Closing the meeting, join us on Thursday!
18:02:56 <PeterR> rrsagent, stop log
18:02:56 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', PeterR.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:03:08 <PeterR> rrsagent, end meeting
18:03:08 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'end meeting', PeterR.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:05:22 <PeterR> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
18:05:44 <PeterR> rrsagent, please generate the minutes
18:05:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-m4h-minutes.html PeterR
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21:58:04 <PeterR> rrsagent, bye
21:58:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items