IRC log of i18n on 2022-09-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:54 [RRSAgent]
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14:54:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-irc
14:54:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
14:55:18 [addison]
Meeting: TPAC 2022: Internationalization Working Group
14:55:24 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:55:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:56:34 [addison]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/121afb09-553e-4b68-854d-2ba64111c34b
14:56:34 [agendabot]
addison, sorry, I did not recognize any agenda in https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/121afb09-553e-4b68-854d-2ba64111c34b
14:56:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:57:04 [addison]
present+ Addison
15:01:46 [addison]
scribe+ addison
15:02:28 [addison]
Meeting Info: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/121afb09-553e-4b68-854d-2ba64111c34b#agenda
15:03:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:04:40 [addison]
FIND US IN 'FINBACK', 3rd Floor (same as registration but in the far corner)
15:04:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:11:40 [addison]
I have not started the meeting, but I am in the room and doing setup stuff
15:50:56 [addison]
Use this link: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/85856632124?pwd=TzdnYzZTbUZNTkNGLzBkMG1rbDdEdz09
15:51:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:54:02 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
15:58:51 [addison]
present+ Atsushi (virtual), Richard (virtual), Florian (guest)
15:59:20 [addison]
present+ Greg (guest), Francois (guest)
15:59:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:00:13 [addison]
present+ Fuqiao (virtual)
16:05:55 [xfq]
present+
16:05:57 [xfq]
scribe+
16:06:36 [addison]
present+ Paul (guest, mathml)
16:06:43 [xfq]
present-
16:09:23 [addison]
agenda+ Ruby progress
16:09:41 [addison]
agenda+ CSS backlog
16:11:51 [addison]
agenda+ MathML progress review
16:12:59 [addison]
present+ Bert
16:15:36 [xfq]
agenda?
16:15:43 [xfq]
Topic: Introductions
16:15:52 [polx]
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16:16:55 [fremy]
fremy has joined #i18n
16:17:25 [xfq]
atsushi: JL-TF is preparing two documents, one is simple ruby, one is ruby-t2s-req
16:17:31 [xfq]
r12a: Richard Ishida
16:18:05 [xfq]
xfq: Fuqiao Xue
16:18:09 [xfq]
Bert: Bert Bos
16:18:26 [xfq]
florian: Florian Rivoal
16:18:31 [fremy]
François Remy, Invited Expert in the CSS WG
16:18:53 [xfq]
Paul: @@
16:19:07 [r12a]
Paul Librecht
16:19:25 [florian]
Florian Rivoal, Invited Expert, CSS WG, i18n WG, Advisory Board
16:19:36 [xfq]
Greg Whitworth
16:19:55 [xfq]
atsushi: team contact for i18n, timed text, immersive web
16:19:57 [r12a]
s/Paul Librecht/Paul Librecht, MathML WG/
16:20:19 [xfq]
s/Paul: @@//
16:20:35 [polx]
s/Librecht/Libbrecht/
16:21:56 [r12a]
Elika Etemad, CSS, AB
16:22:12 [r12a]
present+ fantasai
16:22:18 [florian]
s/CSS, AB/CSS, i18n, ex-AB/
16:22:18 [xfq]
zakim, take up item 2
16:22:18 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- CSS backlog -- taken up [from addison]
16:22:32 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5421
16:23:20 [xfq]
florian: we need someone from Apple to discuss this effectively
16:23:43 [xfq]
r12a: maybe there's one or even two other issues that need to be read in conjunction with this one
16:24:06 [r12a]
see also https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4497#issuecomment-763459971
16:24:47 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Agenda%2B+TPAC%22+label%3Ai18n-tracker
16:25:28 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6848
16:25:41 [xfq]
addison: Backslash & Yen sign behavior
16:26:24 [xfq]
fantasai: last time I looked at the issue there's no good solution for it
16:26:42 [xfq]
addison: this is the famous issue that existed forever
16:27:44 [xfq]
... probably we need to have someone from WebKit to discuss it
16:27:53 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4606
16:28:21 [xfq]
addison: Kaiti & cursive
16:28:41 [xfq]
florian: it's probably good to discuss this in the joint session
16:28:58 [xfq]
... we have some CSS people here, but we're missing some
16:29:20 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6730
16:29:55 [xfq]
florian: we have specified in css text L4
16:30:07 [xfq]
... a pair of properties
16:30:35 [xfq]
... if you have wbr in the markup
16:30:57 [xfq]
... @@ which is typically used in titles
16:31:18 [xfq]
... this is also useful because allowing line breaks
16:31:33 [xfq]
... especially in children's books or for people with dyslexia
16:31:39 [xfq]
... for line breaking you can use the usual
16:31:54 [xfq]
... here it's trying to tackle the same problem differently
16:32:26 [xfq]
... whether we reuse the existing machinery for line breaking or whether we make a new one
16:32:49 [xfq]
... do we just have a giant pile of AI and it figures out where to put the breaks on its own
16:33:08 [xfq]
... or do we need to be more strict on this and say it's Chinese
16:33:20 [xfq]
... from an author's point of view
16:33:35 [xfq]
... it's going to be important to know what it's going to do
16:34:00 [xfq]
... you need to be able to ask not just line breaking, but line breaking in Japanese
16:34:34 [xfq]
... the property we have in CSS, specify which language you want to line break
16:34:39 [xfq]
... let the browser figure it out
16:34:59 [xfq]
... that's the general two different approaches to try and tackle the same problem
16:35:31 [xfq]
... CSS line breaking properties is already extraordinary complicated with so many properties interact with each other
16:36:04 [xfq]
... I'm not excited about adding one magic switch that says ignore everything and do new line breaking
16:36:05 [Bert]
s/ask not just line breaking/ask not just about line breaking (with @supports)/
16:36:31 [xfq]
addison: I hear a lot from Japanese designers
16:36:38 [xfq]
... a lot of unfortunate line breaks
16:36:59 [xfq]
... do you think it's related to that?
16:37:44 [xfq]
addison: I'm trying to understand what people think the problem is
16:38:02 [xfq]
florian: I made a talk about many line breaking things, including this one
16:38:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:38:56 [florian]
https://florian.rivoal.net/talks/line-breaking/#ja-titles
16:39:14 [xfq]
florian: I don't think I can take over and project, but I just dropped a link on IRC ^
16:39:39 [xfq]
... if you press space and shift+space repeatedly to move forward
16:40:10 [xfq]
[florian shows the slides]
16:41:06 [xfq]
florian: we have existing properties that lets you switch two different modes
16:41:27 [xfq]
addison: you can mark all the boundaries
16:41:40 [xfq]
florian: if you mark all the boundaries, it's just like English
16:41:54 [xfq]
... as Richard mentions, there is more than one way to do this
16:42:02 [xfq]
... there's varying opinions
16:42:31 [xfq]
... the new approach is don't add wbr, ignore the line break properties in CSS
16:43:10 [xfq]
... I'm concerned about the inability to specify which language it is
16:43:34 [xfq]
@@: why not 'word-break: aviod'?
16:43:45 [xfq]
s/aviod/avoid
16:43:48 [addison]
s/@@/Francois/
16:45:17 [xfq]
fremy: @@
16:45:56 [xfq]
... if you can, fallback to 'word-break: normal'
16:46:07 [xfq]
... if it doesn't work, it's the normal behaviour
16:47:17 [xfq]
florian: there's word-boundary-detection and word-boundary-expansion
16:47:40 [xfq]
... word-spacing is for where there is already a space and makes it bigger
16:47:47 [xfq]
... this is for inserting a space
16:48:05 [xfq]
florian: we could add a second keyword
16:48:30 [myles]
myles has joined #i18n
16:48:50 [myles]
hello
16:49:47 [xfq]
florian: for languages like Thai, word-boundary-detection has three values
16:50:27 [xfq]
fremy: interesting to see if anybody cares about this
16:50:30 [xfq]
r12a: they do
16:50:39 [xfq]
... we're talking about the language Thai
16:50:50 [xfq]
... there are many languages using the Thai script
16:51:09 [xfq]
... like Northern Thai
16:51:37 [xfq]
florian: you could switch out auto
16:52:21 [xfq]
addison: if you don't know Northern Thai, don't use Thai
16:52:38 [xfq]
... with proper language tagging
16:52:58 [xfq]
florian: not language for the context, but language for the algorithm
16:53:52 [xfq]
... maybe browsers don't know how to do line breaking for Cantonese, but they know how to do line breaking for Chinese
16:54:35 [r12a]
(languages using the Thai scipt: http://r12a.github.io/scripts/thai/index.html#languages)
16:54:50 [xfq]
florian: there's something dealing with the normalization of languages
16:55:00 [xfq]
r12a: we have another issue about that topic as well
16:55:04 [Bert]
(Example of an unfortunate line break in English: ‘Hi, My daughter had an accident and now we need body parts to fix her / car’, from https://freediculous.blogspot.com/2006/02/unfortunate-line-break.html )
16:56:04 [xfq]
r12a: it is a little difficult to hear you with your masks on
16:56:35 [xfq]
florian: combination of word-boundary-detection and word-break: keep-all
16:56:54 [xfq]
... go to look at the content
16:57:55 [xfq]
... when you language tag things, if you language tag your content properly, the browser has exact algorithm for this, it will do the right thing, otherwise it will fallbak to normal
16:58:23 [xfq]
fantasai: I would not classify that as normal vs strict
16:58:35 [xfq]
... kinsoku rules are independent
16:59:00 [xfq]
florian: at some point, if you're extremely picky about how to line break, you can go and add wbr
16:59:53 [xfq]
fantasai: if you do word-based breaking and suddenly switch to phrase-based line breaking
17:00:36 [xfq]
Bert: there's other thing you want, like length of a line
17:00:40 [fantasai]
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17:01:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
17:01:22 [xfq]
florian: I don't want a complete new thing, a new magic mode that completely ignores the line breaking properties
17:01:40 [xfq]
... I think I got useful ideas
17:01:46 [fantasai]
[current discussion is adding 'words' and 'phrases' keywords or something to 'word-break' property]
17:02:53 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Agenda%2B+TPAC%22+label%3Ai18n-tracker
17:03:17 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5995
17:03:45 [xfq]
r12a: you started by saying you wanted to talk about the needs-resolution issues
17:03:54 [xfq]
... but these are tracker issues, addison
17:04:13 [r12a]
https://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/reviews/#
17:04:18 [xfq]
r12a: we don't have a single CSS label
17:04:25 [r12a]
filter on needs-resolution
17:04:29 [David-Clarke]
David-Clarke has joined #I18n
17:04:35 [xfq]
... if you go here ^ and filter on needs-resolution
17:04:58 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Ai18n-needs-resolution+
17:05:05 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue++label%3Ai18n-needs-resolution
17:05:31 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/771#issuecomment-1182339573
17:05:57 [xfq]
fantasai: proposal is to get the WG to resolve it
17:06:10 [fantasai]
if i18n agrees with the proposal, I'll get CSSWG to resolve on it
17:06:47 [xfq]
addison: atsushi and r12a seem to agree with fantasai's comment
17:07:17 [xfq]
fantasai: should we do this to handle justification for ruby annotations?
17:08:01 [xfq]
r12a: what we discovered it's more likely the Latin text is centered
17:08:13 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5995
17:08:14 [xfq]
addison: doesn't sound controversial
17:08:45 [xfq]
fantasai: Should auto-hide match use NFKC or other normalization?
17:09:08 [xfq]
addison: NFKC is usually not a good idea
17:09:48 [xfq]
... there's a lot of things, it's kind of an uncontrolled @@
17:10:25 [xfq]
r12a: I think it's NFK mapping
17:10:39 [xfq]
addison: I suppose we need to make some research
17:10:58 [xfq]
fantasai: if it's too aggressive we can do some custom. normalization
17:11:06 [xfq]
s/custom./custom
17:11:39 [xfq]
fantasai: I think it's legitimate using different representations
17:12:15 [xfq]
r12a: would not be good idea to normalize stuff that people have typed
17:12:37 [xfq]
... automatically annotate your Japanese or Chinese
17:13:10 [xfq]
... e.g., you could have katanaka, and the @@ marks decomposed
17:13:32 [xfq]
... if it's a different kanji character, you probably don't want to unify them in any way
17:13:38 [addison]
s/@@ marks/kuten marks/
17:13:55 [xfq]
... if it's real normalization, maybe it's useful
17:14:06 [xfq]
fantasai: we should probably do NFC for auto-hiding
17:14:35 [fantasai]
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-ruby-1/#hiding
17:14:37 [xfq]
r12a: if it matches, it removes the annotation
17:15:01 [xfq]
addison: the comments are all pointing to things like whitespace normalization
17:15:25 [xfq]
... possibly normalize inernal whitespace
17:15:32 [xfq]
... two space become one
17:15:55 [xfq]
r12a: if you inline, you're not removing anything from view
17:16:21 [xfq]
... we're talking about real edge cases here
17:16:32 [xfq]
florian: Xian and Xi'an example in Chinese
17:16:42 [David-Clarke]
Should half-width kana match full-width in this case?
17:16:48 [xfq]
fantasai: I feel that is a different issue
17:17:04 [fantasai]
* whitespace normalization
17:17:09 [fantasai]
* NFC normalization
17:17:16 [fantasai]
* East Asian Width folding
17:18:17 [xfq]
florian: you're using half-width katakana because it's tiny
17:19:11 [xfq]
... [explains the half-width katakana example]
17:19:36 [xfq]
fantasai: whitespacing is sometimes accidentally introduced
17:19:47 [xfq]
... you have trailing/leading whitespace
17:20:21 [xfq]
... I think what we should do is whitespace and NFC normalization for auto-hiding
17:20:33 [xfq]
addison: sounds like a reasonable starting point
17:20:43 [xfq]
... need to think about the edge cases
17:21:02 [xfq]
florian: I suspect if we start with NFC, it's safe
17:21:37 [xfq]
... if it's rare enough edge case, we probably shouldn't do anything by default
17:22:01 [xfq]
addison: choose your code point carefully
17:22:22 [fantasai]
Proposal for normalization of base and annotation text before auto-hiding:
17:22:22 [fantasai]
- Use NFC normalization (not NFKC)
17:22:22 [fantasai]
- Trim white space
17:22:23 [fantasai]
Anything else, authors should adjust manually using `visibility: collapse`.
17:23:22 [xfq]
addison: it's not asking people to store or something like that
17:23:58 [xfq]
fantasai: my suggestion going forward is to ask the WG to see how they feel with NFC matching
17:24:51 [xfq]
r12a: you're not actually displaying diffreent things, you're just matching
17:25:09 [xfq]
... if you got 2 or 3 spaces in between two words
17:25:17 [xfq]
...it's not really relevant here
17:25:43 [xfq]
addison: we've just done discussing wbr
17:27:58 [xfq]
agenda?
17:28:00 [addison]
Topic: Ruby markup status
17:28:30 [xfq]
florian: extremely long discussion to try and make it possible to write the ruby markup
17:28:59 [fantasai]
i/Topic: /Commentary on why we have the current spec text https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/0c972dc6d3a3bd34ee9ce63bfd5babc55f0afb14
17:29:13 [xfq]
... a pull request against the HTML spec
17:29:36 [xfq]
... as soon as we find time to actually do it we should be very quick to make a FPWD
17:29:45 [xfq]
... we actually have two impls
17:29:51 [xfq]
... firefox and amazon kindle
17:35:00 [addison]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:35:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
17:35:09 [addison]
Topic: ~* Break *~
17:58:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
17:58:48 [addison]
s/I have not started the meeting, but I am in the room and doing setup stuff//
17:58:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:05:42 [polx]
polx has joined #i18n
18:05:57 [fantasai]
Topic: MathML
18:05:57 [fremy]
fremy has joined #i18n
18:06:00 [fantasai]
scribenick: fantasai
18:06:27 [fantasai]
polx: MathWG is working on v4 of MathML
18:06:36 [fantasai]
... MathML is XML format for writing math notations
18:06:47 [fantasai]
... v4 the biggest novelty is trying to get speakout to work
18:06:53 [fantasai]
... so that a11y tools can read math out loud
18:07:05 [fantasai]
... MathML is known to sort-of work on that, but we want this to become proper
18:07:21 [fantasai]
... current development means adding an attr, intent, that describes how parts of tree will be spoken out
18:07:34 [fantasai]
... should be combined with default knowledge of how to speak things, which is currently the fuzzy part of the spec
18:07:39 [fantasai]
addison: intent is structured data?
18:07:50 [fantasai]
fremy: is it fixed options or freetext?
18:08:02 [fantasai]
polx: freetext, but has some placeholder that allow you to delegate the rest of the speaking to inside
18:08:06 [fantasai]
fremy: so templates?
18:08:14 [fantasai]
polx: template language being developed, part of more unclear part
18:08:27 [fantasai]
florian: It's freetext in a human language?
18:08:36 [fantasai]
polx: Yes, that's why i18n aspect is interesting
18:08:44 [fantasai]
... I believe MathML lives in lang-tagged trees
18:08:54 [fantasai]
... and I think the voice that is used to speak this, depends on user
18:09:03 [fantasai]
... not sure if i18n has special concerns?
18:09:07 [fantasai]
addison: You're touching on some hot buttons
18:09:20 [fantasai]
... one is that putting natural language text into an attribute makes it hard to localize / translate
18:09:24 [fantasai]
... can't be lang-tagged
18:09:33 [fantasai]
polx: it's modal language, so whole subtree of language
18:09:37 [fantasai]
... there are alternative representations but
18:09:49 [florian]
q+
18:09:55 [r12a]
s/modal language/mono-language/
18:09:56 [fantasai]
addison: common thing to want to do, if you want to localize something you have the intent ... can have multiple ones with different lang tags
18:10:01 [fantasai]
... can localize sub-parts
18:10:07 [fantasai]
polx: would translate the whole subtree
18:10:22 [fantasai]
addison: also case that there are things like structure of natural language is not, you can just add words together to make senstence
18:10:34 [fantasai]
... so if you structure things that way, then wehn you put into another language, then you don't have attributes in correct order
18:10:38 [fantasai]
... need to rearrange to make it sensible
18:10:44 [fantasai]
polx: There is a dynamic to how intents are combined
18:10:52 [fantasai]
... pull things out and make one single sentence
18:11:04 [fantasai]
... makes it non-navigatable, a11y tools like to navigate sub-elements
18:11:06 [fantasai]
... but [missed]
18:11:17 [fantasai]
addison: I'm not an a11y expert, but usally what you want is you want a stream of words
18:11:32 [fantasai]
... that you're feeding to the TTS engine
18:11:41 [fantasai]
... might feed language tags to get it to pronounce correctly
18:11:52 [fantasai]
polx: The whole world around it would be Russian, expectedly
18:12:03 [fantasai]
addison: what I'm saying is, there's a stream of text that would go to processor that will read it out
18:12:11 [fantasai]
... your problem is that to generate the stream of text
18:12:24 [fantasai]
... you're providing a way for ppl to mark up their math with the content such that it generates that string of text
18:12:30 [r12a]
q+
18:12:34 [fantasai]
... and if you only ever had a document in one language at a time, that would be maybe possible to do
18:12:43 [fantasai]
... but different languages have different requirements
18:12:51 [fantasai]
... you'd have to reformulate your content to be in a different language
18:12:57 [fantasai]
... e.g. Japanese has very different word order than English
18:13:07 [fantasai]
... so you would need to set it up so that stream of text would be in the taret language
18:13:20 [fantasai]
florian: If I've understood correct, idea is not that each subtree has a piece of text that gets added together
18:13:25 [fantasai]
... but idea of having a language tmeplate thing
18:13:31 [fantasai]
... can have subtrees invoke the grammar in the right way
18:13:37 [fantasai]
... so concatenation order wouldn't be a problem
18:13:49 [fantasai]
polx: Sometimes can't, so in "...", you'd have different needs to put things on the parent alone
18:14:00 [fantasai]
... because you cannot use the templates in a reasonable manner
18:14:18 [fantasai]
addison: Harder than it loos, bcause you have agreement issues, e.g. don't have just zero/one/plural
18:14:24 [fantasai]
... and math of course has lots of numbers
18:14:26 [r12a]
it would be very useful to see an example !
18:14:39 [fantasai]
addison: interesting project at Unicode, next generation XXX format, to describe localizable structures
18:14:46 [fantasai]
... for inserting runtime formatted strings
18:14:52 [fantasai]
... called the Message Format WG of CLDR
18:15:09 [florian]
fantasai: have you heard of l20n project at Mozilla?
18:15:33 [florian]
fantasai: it was a templating system that Mozilla was working on maybe a decade ago
18:16:03 [florian]
fantasai: that was to deal with agreement or inflexions and other grammatical things, in order to deal with these in the Mozilla UI
18:16:12 [fantasai]
addison: I think that evolved into Fluent, which is a format that does that
18:16:16 [fantasai]
... other groups doing similar things
18:16:22 [fantasai]
... and all those groups working on this message formatl also
18:16:25 [fantasai]
... to build a system
18:16:37 [fantasai]
polx: Problem with math is that there's extremely big variation on abstraction
18:16:50 [fantasai]
... predicting contents, can depend on resolution you might not come t
18:16:55 [fantasai]
... speaking in an abstract way
18:17:12 [fantasai]
addison: I have illustrations of why doesn't work but
18:17:17 [fantasai]
polx: Send it around, it would be useful
18:17:44 [fantasai]
addison: My first reaction is, I think I understand what you want to do, super common to want to build a templating language
18:18:01 [fantasai]
... trick is it's hard to do well from i18n pov, build it for one language, and have to rewrite for other languages
18:18:07 [fantasai]
... there are better mechanisms to support doing these things
18:18:27 [fantasai]
... I think it would be a good idea for us to look at your proposals and help make connections early on
18:18:28 [Bert]
-> https://w3c.github.io/mathml/spec.html#mixing_intent Example of ‘intent’ in MathML4
18:18:37 [fantasai]
... from a very high level your description sounds like it would be problematic
18:18:55 [fantasai]
florian: another thing to mention, since you put text in attributes, is limiting because you can't have markup
18:19:05 [fantasai]
... since trying to display text, often need some extra markup
18:19:14 [fantasai]
... if speaking rather than displaying, could be different
18:19:26 [fantasai]
... but also have other things in CSS, that supposed to let you style how things are spoken
18:19:33 [fantasai]
fremy: feedback I got is ppl don't want that
18:19:42 [fantasai]
florian: if you stick things into an attr, you can't extend it
18:19:51 [fantasai]
... if you can use regular elements, that opens up more possibilities
18:20:01 [fantasai]
... maybe more than you want, but won't run into problem of less than you need
18:20:17 [fantasai]
polx: There's an element in MathML called <semantic> for alternate representations, e.g. LaTeX representation alongside MathML
18:20:18 [florian]
ack florian
18:20:24 [fantasai]
... these things are all there, but known to be too complex to be of use
18:20:29 [fantasai]
... hard to make it simpler, honestly
18:20:34 [fantasai]
... because i nthe end what you want is parallel trees
18:20:44 [fantasai]
... and need to hook them up with IDs, and it works, but it's art
18:20:59 [fantasai]
fremy: I think what you're trying to do, it seems you're trying to create a text representation for elements in the a11y tree
18:21:05 [fantasai]
... very close to concept of aria-label and aria-description
18:21:07 [fantasai]
polx: it is
18:21:14 [fantasai]
fremy: why not use the existing system that they use?
18:21:17 [fantasai]
... they already have this concept
18:21:26 [fantasai]
... if you use aria-labeled-by, can have a list of things
18:21:30 [addison]
q?
18:21:45 [fantasai]
polx: There are guys who are in the aria groups, and aria-label is considered part of this scenario, but different impl possibilities
18:21:49 [fantasai]
... offer in ways that are independent
18:21:54 [fantasai]
... not sufficient for our formatting
18:22:10 [addison]
ack r12a
18:22:14 [fantasai]
fremy: I would like to understand why it's insufficient, because it would help us understand what needs to be worked on
18:22:31 [fantasai]
r12a: This discussion would be a lot easier if we had an example
18:23:22 [fantasai]
r12a: The other possibility occures to me, you have a templating language which creates something in English and you translate it to other languages
18:23:32 [fantasai]
... rather than trying to have a templating language that serves every language
18:23:42 [fantasai]
polx: What do you mean my translating?
18:23:58 [fantasai]
r12a: As I understand it, you're coming out with a sentence that sayse "The third root of 64"
18:24:06 [fantasai]
... and that represents the formula that will appear on the screen
18:24:12 [fantasai]
polx: right
18:24:33 [fantasai]
r12a: you've got all those bits in that formula which you can assign words to, and then you have to understand relationships among them and how to create syntax for that
18:24:42 [fantasai]
... then need to figure out agremeents e.g. pluralization
18:24:46 [fantasai]
... and do that for every language
18:24:54 [fantasai]
... but another possibility is that you generate a string in English
18:25:06 [fantasai]
... then only have to build all that complex stuff in English, and then you use translation mechanisms
18:25:19 [fantasai]
polx: This is a support aspect. You could do that, and you could do that at the authoring level or in the browsers
18:25:28 [fantasai]
... but at some point you want control over that, and this is the space we're creating with the intent
18:25:34 [fantasai]
... we want author to control how is spoken
18:25:37 [fantasai]
fremy: also translation isn't cheap
18:25:46 [fantasai]
... can't run it on client side every time you have a math equation, it doesn't scale
18:26:05 [fantasai]
addison: if you have a true machine-translation engine, then it's not cheap to create but maybe can do that
18:26:18 [fantasai]
fremy: I work in machine learning, and machine translation is multiple gigabytes in memory
18:26:26 [fantasai]
... very few programs translate things correctly on a computer
18:26:32 [fantasai]
... that's why they use servers
18:26:45 [fantasai]
... small machine translation is very low quality, help if you are stuck without internet
18:26:50 [fantasai]
... but not something that can be relied on
18:27:01 [fantasai]
polx: Sometimes can do wonders with automatic translation, and can help author
18:27:22 [fantasai]
.. but whether author wants to render everything into a string, and then get that translated, and then get it checked by a math expert is one thing
18:27:26 [fantasai]
... [missed]
18:27:37 [fantasai]
... as soon as formula becomes really big, becomes essential
18:27:40 [fantasai]
s/.. but/... but/
18:27:51 [addison]
ack fantasai
18:28:09 [fremy]
fantasai: I have concerns about having natural language in attributes
18:28:12 [addison]
fantasai: some concern about natural language in an attribute, because we often markup
18:28:21 [fremy]
fantasai: not all accessibility engines use a speech engine
18:28:28 [fremy]
fantasai: sometimes braille output for example
18:28:41 [fantasai]
polx: Braille has a special math pattern
18:28:49 [fantasai]
... One Hungarian guy I forget has a system for this
18:28:53 [fantasai]
... I don't remember
18:29:06 [fantasai]
.. but I know that many ppl are feeling that this standard for Braille math is limited, but it is what everyone uses
18:29:17 [r12a]
q+
18:29:20 [fantasai]
addison: Also don't get wrapped up in saying it's just a11y, lots of documents are read alound these days
18:29:30 [fantasai]
... so general purpose TTS is more prevalent than it has been
18:29:36 [Bert]
Math in Braille often uses Nemethe Braille.
18:29:45 [fantasai]
... so is it good enough to serve a11y audiences? Maybe, and that's where tech has been driven from historically
18:29:49 [fantasai]
... but it is expanding quite a bit
18:29:49 [Bert]
s/Nemethe/Nemeth/
18:29:58 [fantasai]
polx: Yes, all wondering about listening to math in the car while driving
18:30:02 [fantasai]
addison: "Alexa, read this paper"
18:30:15 [fantasai]
... that's when you have some piece of MathML embedded, and needs to become...
18:30:33 [fantasai]
fremy: aspect to keep in mind, MathML has 2 standards, and the one that is used is a presentational format
18:30:42 [fantasai]
... it says how it looks on the screen, but same notation can be used for multiple things
18:30:45 [fantasai]
... that's why you need intent
18:30:55 [fantasai]
... need this on a letter can mean multiple things, that's part of the intent aspect right?
18:31:07 [fantasai]
polx: you can use MathML Content to do better, but it's too expensive
18:31:18 [fantasai]
... math professionals are more comfortable thinking about how to write things rather than how you mean them
18:31:30 [fantasai]
fremy: Content is intended to be a middle ground, still describing presentation but with more info
18:31:38 [fantasai]
... I think it does make sense to me, looking at the example
18:31:52 [fantasai]
... one thing that maybe I am wondering is removing the idea of the string representation
18:32:00 [fantasai]
... I would argue that this is not a good idea to put in intent
18:32:09 [fantasai]
... I would limit it to things that can be understood
18:32:19 [fantasai]
... If you want to express something outside of intent, should use aria-label
18:32:27 [fantasai]
... for example in the spec you have x power to the ?
18:32:31 [fantasai]
... suppose you want to read as position
18:32:37 [fantasai]
... then this should be done at the aria-label level
18:32:46 [fantasai]
... so you have the x arg, you have x aria-label = positoin
18:32:50 [fantasai]
... and then you can compose the stentence
18:33:01 [fantasai]
... but I would refrain from using intent to scope things outside the scope of intent
18:33:04 [fantasai]
... I think it misses the bar
18:33:11 [fantasai]
... because it becomes very confusing if you can rename things
18:33:20 [fantasai]
... if you go depeer in the hierarchy, these renames won't be consistent
18:33:27 [fantasai]
... So want to see if can remove the freetext option from itnent
18:33:36 [fantasai]
... and if you need freetext, use aria-label on the functions to give the freetext you need
18:33:42 [fantasai]
... and that is a tech that already exits
18:33:46 [fantasai]
... and get those translated
18:33:52 [fantasai]
... it flows into natural localization pipeline for HTML
18:34:03 [fantasai]
... and enforces the idea that 'intent' is something the computer can understand
18:34:11 [fantasai]
... freetext is something the computer cannot understand
18:34:16 [fantasai]
polx: What do you mean computer can understand
18:34:24 [fantasai]
... being able to understnad more of the intent of the expression
18:34:34 [fantasai]
... my experience is this an extremely American point of view
18:34:37 [fantasai]
... as soon as you go farther
18:34:48 [fantasai]
... the bigger problem when you do this understanding, you want to understand in a semantic world that is well-defined
18:35:01 [fantasai]
... and mathematicians have been creating math or centuries, and many things are not encoded
18:35:10 [fantasai]
fremy: Not saying computer understands the equiation, but understand each piece
18:35:21 [fantasai]
... intent should be structured, but if you need a name, should use a name from the markup
18:35:32 [fantasai]
... stilll rely on existing tech, but compose [missed]
18:35:36 [fantasai]
... this seems more reasonable I think
18:35:43 [fantasai]
polx: This is interesting, we'll be meeting on Wednesday
18:35:46 [fantasai]
... is interesting thoughts
18:35:51 [fantasai]
<fantasai> +1
18:35:56 [David-Clarke]
s/equiation/equation
18:36:08 [fantasai]
polx: Wondering if we should consider, if single-language is safe enough
18:36:11 [fantasai]
... or should be safe enough
18:36:22 [fantasai]
florian: One of the beauties of math notation is that it is not natural language
18:36:35 [fantasai]
... in translation description can be different, but the equation will be the same
18:36:41 [fantasai]
... to a large extent
18:36:47 [fantasai]
florian: It's shared
18:37:04 [fantasai]
... and if we could enable those formulas that are not strongly tied to a natural language to be re-used as-is in a bunch of different language documents as-is
18:37:10 [fantasai]
... would be nice, but certainly more complicated
18:37:25 [fantasai]
polx: There's a will in the intent definition that trying to make it as simple as possible is a most important quality
18:37:32 [fantasai]
... and might be reason why all these templating languages feel inappropriate
18:37:41 [fantasai]
addison: integrates well with other tech stack pieces then make ssense
18:37:56 [fantasai]
... the more different special thngs ppl invent, there's less likely to have widespread support
18:38:05 [fantasai]
... e.g. re-using aria-label insofar as possible, already widespread
18:38:12 [fantasai]
polx: One thing unsure about is how to encode defaults
18:38:19 [fantasai]
... so that a11y tools don't need intent as much as possible
18:38:27 [fantasai]
... probably this is doable for basic math, for English language
18:38:37 [fantasai]
... if you go to any European language, there is no complete tool with these defaults
18:38:44 [fantasai]
... if you go further away, then this will be almost impossible
18:39:02 [fantasai]
... to use, for every different language, can stick the ENglish name and translate, seems doable but not sure
18:39:15 [fantasai]
... and then things like i is used as root of -1 , but understood to be something else in different fields
18:39:26 [fantasai]
... e.g. H2 is hydrogen or 2nd homology group
18:39:38 [fantasai]
... currently we seem to avoid being able to speak a proper domain name
18:39:47 [fantasai]
... this is crystallograph or organic chemistry
18:39:54 [fantasai]
... we don't know whether there's a way to model this kind of subdomain things
18:39:59 [fantasai]
... because at the end you end up very scattered
18:40:07 [fantasai]
addison: I understand what you're saying
18:40:20 [addison]
q?
18:40:23 [addison]
ack r12a
18:40:32 [fantasai]
r12a: We
18:40:49 [fantasai]
r12a: We're talking about describing an expression, why don't we have something like alt attr
18:40:53 [fantasai]
polx: 2 reasons
18:41:05 [fantasai]
polx: This is one string for whole subtree, which is what aria-label/descri can do
18:41:11 [fantasai]
... but this is not enough for navigating through the subtree
18:41:16 [fantasai]
... as you move in the subtree
18:41:22 [fantasai]
... take out some parts and re-use other things
18:41:23 [fantasai]
r12a: Thanks
18:41:41 [fantasai]
... point I wanted to make, before I joined W3C I worked at Xerox as design consultant and worked as engineering
18:41:54 [fantasai]
... if you're developing a product, principle of develop it in at least 2 languages
18:42:15 [fantasai]
... My recommendation to you, because sounds extremely complicated, is that you develop it in English and another language e.g. Arabic or Japanese ,which are substantially different in syntax
18:42:26 [fantasai]
... and try to concucrrently develop the tech in all those languages at the same time
18:42:31 [fantasai]
... you'll have a better idea of how to develop
18:42:57 [fantasai]
addison: Danger is that WEstern-european types can assemble something that works, but breaks down as you move to other language sets
18:43:06 [fantasai]
polx: Exactly the problem we have right now in non-standardized software
18:43:29 [fantasai]
addison: Get proof of existeance, and then encounater problem of like Japanese having very different word order
18:43:35 [fantasai]
... or different agreements with numbered
18:43:42 [fantasai]
... and that's where you discovered have features, but can't go there
18:43:56 [fantasai]
... if you can make it work for an array of languages then you can sneak up on some aspects of the problems
18:44:06 [fantasai]
... as you see from earlier discussion in CSS, still corner cases that are hard
18:44:15 [fantasai]
... don't have "well it worked in English" and then get stuck
18:44:21 [fantasai]
r12a: I chose Arabic and Japanese on purpose
18:44:29 [fantasai]
... Japanese has a SOV word order
18:44:36 [fantasai]
... but also has very little agreement and very vague language
18:44:45 [fantasai]
... Arabic on the other has lots of agreement, and VSO order
18:44:56 [fantasai]
... and also has single tense, dual tense, and multiple tense in terms of plurality
18:45:00 [fremy]
q+
18:45:09 [fantasai]
... so those two languages cover a lot of range in the problems you're likely to run into
18:45:24 [fantasai]
polx: Unfortunately both those languages are colonized in terms of math notation. They write in French notation
18:45:40 [fantasai]
... and I believe that the Japanese have been taking math notation since 1920s from Americans with almost no difference
18:45:48 [fantasai]
florian: From notation, yes, but from the way they speak it
18:45:51 [fantasai]
polx: you're right
18:45:57 [fantasai]
r12a: You know about our note about MathML?
18:46:09 [fantasai]
polx: ?? is the author, but is unfortunately not involved anymore
18:46:33 [fantasai]
... we had one guy which has just left recently, might come back, is BUlgarian and have a bit more exotic math formulae formatting
18:46:39 [fantasai]
... so we have French, German, and English in the group
18:46:43 [fantasai]
... and Dutch with Bert :)
18:46:57 [fantasai]
addison: Point though is not the math notation that's different, it's the natural language aspect
18:47:15 [fantasai]
polx: You're right that Bulgarian might not differ as much from grammar
18:47:26 [addison]
q?
18:47:30 [addison]
ack fremy
18:47:35 [fantasai]
fremy: Right now the spec doesn't include list of templates
18:47:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:47:42 [fantasai]
polx: working in Google sheets
18:48:02 [fantasai]
fremy: Exercise that seems worthwhile is to sample 100 equations from Wikipedia, and ask people to write how they would read these formulas in their own language
18:48:03 [Bert]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2006/NOTE-arabic-math-20060131/">https://www.w3.org/TR/2006/NOTE-arabic-math-20060131/ https://www.w3.org/TR/2006/NOTE-arabic-math-20060131/
18:48:12 [fantasai]
... it's difficult to imagine without this sampling
18:48:24 [fantasai]
... it will tell you which patterns are most often recurring, which will tell you the focus of intents
18:48:37 [fantasai]
... and will also tell you the different ways these are descried in different language,
18:48:42 [fantasai]
... will show whether your strategy will work
18:48:54 [r12a]
s/Xerox as design consultant and worked as engineering/Xerox as global design consultant and helped develop the i18n aspects of the corporate engineering process/
18:49:02 [fantasai]
... and if so do you need more, e.g. you realize you need singular/plural. or male/female
18:49:05 [fantasai]
... for some of the letters
18:49:17 [fantasai]
... maybe then you need to say this is an attribute we may want to consider
18:49:25 [fantasai]
... you will not be able to solve all the challenges in the first version
18:49:26 [addison]
q?
18:49:30 [fantasai]
... but it would get you idea of what are the major issues
18:49:44 [fantasai]
... Consider how can you cover with simplest possible approach these cases
18:49:54 [fantasai]
... It's a survey also that's not too hard to run
18:50:03 [fantasai]
... this will help a lot in shapin gyour desing
18:50:11 [fantasai]
polx: Also within a language, ppl will speak things differently
18:50:32 [fremy]
fantasai: I think we could probably run the survey at a Math conference
18:50:42 [fremy]
fantasai: and some would think of this exercice as "fun"
18:50:54 [fremy]
fantasai: compare how they would voice a formula vs friends
18:51:08 [fremy]
fantasai: and there would be people from all over the world in these conferences
18:51:48 [fantasai]
florian: When I was in engineering school, Vietnamese students and us understood each other better in math than anything else
18:51:58 [fantasai]
... they had learned to speak the notation in Vietnamese, and also learned in French
18:52:18 [fantasai]
r12a: You also have to be careful, I spent 6-7 years teaching globalization
18:52:29 [fantasai]
... and I would be teaching developers who spoke those languages how to develop i18n
18:52:39 [fantasai]
... and they'd never apply the idea of "oh, we do this differently to how it's being implemented here"
18:52:51 [fantasai]
... so you can ask them, but they might not have ever thought about it
18:53:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: The advantage of fremy's question is it's very simple, don't have to think deeply about it just write down how you would read it
18:53:35 [fremy]
fantasai: reading in your own language is easier because participants don't need to think about it
18:53:44 [fantasai]
addison: There are common patterns to this, this is similar to other things that ppl have done
18:53:45 [myles]
myles has joined #i18n
18:53:49 [fantasai]
... so maybe we can connect you with some resources
18:54:02 [fantasai]
... and have some guiding discussion to show you the kinds of things that you can
18:54:11 [fantasai]
polx: One thing done in MathML 3 introducing long division
18:54:26 [fantasai]
... you have an amount of ppl, asking "how do you write long division in your country"
18:54:30 [fantasai]
... and found 17 different ways
18:54:34 [fantasai]
... and it differs
18:54:41 [fantasai]
addison: There are styles even within langguages
18:54:54 [fantasai]
... many ways to do the same thing, all of which are valid, just stylistic or preferential
18:55:00 [fantasai]
... so have to account for those differences
18:55:10 [fantasai]
r12a: Have to account for, whatever you come up with should be understood by everyone
18:55:27 [fantasai]
addison: Myles will join in 5 minutes, any other things on Math?
18:55:47 [fantasai]
polx: If you can send me links to experiments, would be very helpful
18:55:58 [fantasai]
... indeed the design seems like it is something ppl have been doing
18:56:12 [fantasai]
addison: wherea re you in the cycle?
18:56:16 [fantasai]
polx: This is the FPWD
18:56:24 [fantasai]
... so enough time to inform the design
18:56:35 [fantasai]
... really a big trade-off between simplicity and explicitness
18:58:38 [fantasai]
[discussion of possible survey]
18:58:47 [fantasai]
fremy: If you have this presentation, how do you read it?
18:59:01 [fantasai]
... might not be the preferred presentation but how do you read it
19:00:21 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Ai18n-tracker
19:01:03 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Ai18n-tracker+label%3A%22Agenda%2B+TPAC%22
19:02:03 [r12a]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue++label%3Ai18n-needs-resolution
19:02:06 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6848
19:02:19 [addison]
Topic: CSS issues
19:03:47 [addison]
myles: on windows certain fonts display backslash as yen sign, so people use backslash where they mean yen
19:04:01 [florian]
q+
19:04:04 [addison]
... so on macos we have to do something to make these fonts display to the user intention
19:04:26 [addison]
... only certain fonts or certain encodings
19:04:50 [addison]
fantasai: do we have an idea of the best way forware
19:04:51 [addison]
q+
19:05:03 [addison]
r12a: kida-san provided some recommendations
19:05:26 [r12a]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6848#issuecomment-1226798241
19:05:41 [addison]
ack florian
19:06:06 [addison]
florian: can take a shortcut to talk about yen, but korean has won sign
19:06:12 [addison]
... they appear in file paths for windows
19:06:31 [addison]
... in asia, very familiar
19:07:07 [addison]
... makes me wonder if kida-san's recommendation is correct, since any webpage will use Unicode 5C but expect to show yen or won or yuan
19:07:23 [addison]
... normally characters should be different for a reason
19:07:51 [addison]
ack addison
19:08:19 [fantasai]
addison: this is holdover from DOS days
19:08:27 [fantasai]
... see ppl use \ as currency symbol
19:08:33 [fantasai]
... I don't think modern APIs generate that often
19:08:37 [fantasai]
florian: keyboards do
19:08:58 [fantasai]
addison: I agree with Myles we need to solve this in a consistent manner
19:09:00 [fantasai]
... because will be tricky
19:09:06 [fantasai]
... because intention is lost
19:09:24 [fantasai]
myles: Is there a key on Japanese keyboards for Yen or Won sign
19:09:34 [fantasai]
florian: I think answer is no, you press just the one key
19:09:39 [fantasai]
... backslash/yen key
19:09:51 [fantasai]
... how software converts that to Unicode is maybe they do 5C
19:09:54 [addison]
￥
19:09:55 [fantasai]
... but there's just one key
19:10:10 [fantasai]
atsushi: Some keyboards have both
19:10:15 [fantasai]
... my keyboard has botht
19:10:18 [fantasai]
s/botht/both
19:10:33 [fantasai]
i/Topic: CSS/scribe+ addison
19:10:42 [fantasai]
myles: Do you know if those keyboards are common?
19:10:55 [fantasai]
addison: just switching to IME doesn't get you yen sign until you swith out of directed mode
19:11:16 [fantasai]
... but in command shell you'll see paths displayed consistently in those localse with those symbols
19:11:27 [fantasai]
r12a: What about escape codes? Do they all start with yen sign?
19:11:29 [fantasai]
florian: I guess so
19:11:43 [fantasai]
... but not sure, not on Windows for too long
19:11:48 [fantasai]
... and this really is a Windows-ism
19:11:55 [fantasai]
... it's not a Linux thing and not a Mac thing
19:12:04 [fantasai]
addison: You could wish to start to repair the world
19:12:06 [Bert]
-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_input_method Some photos of Japanese keyboards
19:12:14 [fantasai]
... certainly backslashes as backslashes outside a path context
19:12:28 [fantasai]
florian: If you're thinking about a Mac author writing an article about Windows, it would be fine if you don't get it automatically
19:12:31 [atsushi]
keyboard map examples -> http://qa.elecom.co.jp/faq_detail.html?id=5262
19:12:38 [fantasai]
... and have to work to find char for Windows users
19:12:51 [fantasai]
... but if you have a machine where the font renders \ as Yen
19:12:56 [fantasai]
... then won't notice the oddness
19:13:04 [fantasai]
... Kida-sans advice, does it work if we can't fix the font?
19:13:15 [fantasai]
... Removing tricks from fonts is nice, but fonts are already out there. Too late tof ix
19:13:19 [fantasai]
s/tof ix/to fix
19:13:34 [fantasai]
myles: interesting observation is that if you use ICU to convert the byle 5C from Shift-JIS encoding
19:13:46 [fantasai]
... e.g. say this sequence of bytes is a SHift-JIS encoded string, and that byte is 5C
19:13:59 [fantasai]
... if you then take this string as 1 byte and ask convert to UTF-8, the result that ICU produces is also 5C
19:14:15 [fantasai]
... so ICU at least seems to be thinking that the encoded byte 5C in Shift-JIS is backslash rather than meaning yen sign
19:14:27 [fantasai]
addison: it absolutely has to, because underneath the hood the OS expects a backslash in the path
19:14:43 [fantasai]
... just a thing in East Asian OSes that the DOS fonts and later presentational fonts show paths as having the symbol in them
19:14:57 [fantasai]
... I don't think it was shift-JIS, I think it was the single-byte national code sets that had yen sign in them
19:15:03 [fantasai]
... so I think that's the right behavior for a converter
19:15:14 [fantasai]
... but what's happened is that everyone got used to path separators looking like currency sybol
19:15:19 [fantasai]
... even though underneath the hood they're really 5C
19:15:30 [fantasai]
... which is horrrifying
19:15:58 [fantasai]
fantasai: So what do we want to do here? DO we want other borwsers to adopt WebKit behavior or something else?
19:16:18 [fantasai]
myles: not a mode, just any time you have a particular encoding OR certain fonts, we will automatically swap out the two characters
19:16:27 [fantasai]
addison: My question is, is this something one could style on or off
19:16:37 [fantasai]
myles: not with a CSS property. That's one potential option, could control with a CSS property
19:16:49 [fantasai]
florian: Should we have in @font-face some descriptors to tell what the font is doing?
19:17:07 [fantasai]
... currently triggering WebKit behavior on several famous fonts, but could be non-famous fonts
19:17:20 [fantasai]
myles: sound sreasonable
19:17:28 [fantasai]
myles: also this list of names is heuristic
19:17:41 [fantasai]
... if you make @font-face rule with same name, but source is a different font, that will still trigger
19:17:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think at that point you're asking for trouble
19:18:02 [fantasai]
florian: Maybe intial value of descriptor can be auto
19:18:13 [fantasai]
... [missed] and trigger the right behavior
19:18:28 [fantasai]
myles: This code is older than WebKit-Blink fork, and Blink doesn't have it so must have intentionally removed it
19:18:48 [fantasai]
fantasai: They also aren't as focused on Mac, so maybe not as focused on that?
19:19:09 [fantasai]
florian: These fonts are not on Android either
19:19:19 [fantasai]
addison: These fonts are named in the stylesheet and subbed in OS
19:19:22 [fantasai]
... but taking the behavior
19:19:33 [fantasai]
florian: Chrome on Android should be having the same problems as WebKit on MacOS
19:19:38 [fantasai]
... but Chrome removed it, possibly on purpose
19:20:12 [florian]
fantasai: the two options we have are
19:20:30 [florian]
fantasai: 1: remove this special behavior from webkit, and just let the font do what it does
19:20:46 [florian]
fantasai: this will result in pages result very different on windows vs other OS
19:21:10 [florian]
fantasai: option 2: encode this behavior in all browsers, and possibly add some css to control it
19:21:29 [florian]
myles: we could change our heuristic
19:21:39 [florian]
fantasai: but something more or less like it
19:21:47 [Bert]
q+
19:21:50 [florian]
fantasai: we should probably take that to the CSSWG
19:21:55 [addison]
ack Bert
19:21:59 [fantasai]
Bert: This might also occur to other languages
19:22:06 [fantasai]
florian: It happens for sure in Japan and Korea
19:22:18 [fantasai]
addison: Also affects simplified Chinese, maybe also traditional
19:22:37 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we standardize this, should expand to other affected languages
19:22:41 [fantasai]
addison: I think limited to East Asian at least
19:22:52 [fantasai]
Bert: WebKit only does Yen sign, right?
19:23:09 [fantasai]
florian: Do you have equivalent heuristic for Korean, or don't do it for Korean?
19:23:15 [fantasai]
myles: I've exhaustively listed our cirteria
19:23:52 [fantasai]
polx: Is there special behavior for French francs?
19:24:01 [fantasai]
florian: There were symbols, but never intermingled with backslash in encodings
19:24:33 [fantasai]
ACTION: fantasai to summarize into issue, for discussion in CSSWG
19:24:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1194 - Summarize into issue, for discussion in csswg [on Elika Etemad - due 2022-09-19].
19:24:42 [fantasai]
myles: If other browsers refuse to implement, this makes our decision for us
19:24:49 [fantasai]
fantasai: Thats why need to discuss on Friday
19:25:18 [r12a]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7183
19:25:45 [r12a]
[css-text-4] Make autospace a property, rather than a value of text-spacing #7183
19:25:53 [addison]
Topic: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7183
19:26:07 [fantasai]
r12a: I think there are advantages of splitting these two apart
19:26:21 [fantasai]
... and may even be able to do some additional stuff, such as replacing normal spaces with autospacing
19:26:32 [fantasai]
myles: When you say autospacing, can you describe?
19:26:43 [fantasai]
r12a: in Japanese, there's typically a little bit of extra space between Japanese chars and numbers
19:26:49 [fantasai]
... or between Japanese chars and Latin
19:26:59 [fantasai]
... and that's something that if you put in an actual space before/after
19:27:05 [fantasai]
... those spaces are too big
19:27:07 [fantasai]
... and don't really belong there
19:27:17 [fantasai]
... so the autospace property applies that extra spacing without having to add that spacing
19:27:25 [fantasai]
... which everyone wants that
19:27:39 [fantasai]
... whereas text-spacing is stretching gaps
19:27:45 [fantasai]
myles: I'm confused, what's the difference?
19:28:11 [fantasai]
r12a: text-spacing applies equal amount of space
19:28:15 [fantasai]
... autospacing is particular to context
19:28:25 [fantasai]
... and another question of applying lots of these spaces across range fo text
19:28:30 [fantasai]
... about surrounding text with a bit of space on either space
19:28:34 [fantasai]
... often fixed-size space
19:29:57 [r12a]
myles, see this (read the whole section) https://r12a.github.io/scripts/jpan/#letterspace
19:30:56 [fantasai]
[fantasai explains what text-spacing does]
19:31:18 [fantasai]
myles: transform spaces in source?
19:31:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: either transform or to insert where not already there
19:31:36 [fantasai]
r12a: also includes reduction of space around punctuation
19:31:59 [fantasai]
... everything to do with space, rather that different types
19:32:08 [fantasai]
addison: so could split different classes of mechanical spacing
19:32:24 [fantasai]
... for CJK autospacing would give you for runs of non-native text
19:32:33 [fantasai]
... and not affect any other spacing
19:32:50 [fantasai]
r12a: Splitting it out allows you to be more specific
19:32:57 [fantasai]
... apply to certain cases and nother others
19:33:02 [addison]
ack fantasai
19:33:03 [fantasai]
s/nother/not/
19:33:08 [myles]
q+
19:33:26 [fantasai]
r12a: I wanted to throws this out there because I think there's been no movement on it
19:33:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: haven't been working on Text 4 lately
19:33:44 [addison]
ack myles
19:33:52 [fantasai]
myles: I don't wat to comment on property split
19:34:03 [fantasai]
... but our native text engine CoreText has a similar feature for Chinese and Japanese text
19:34:10 [fantasai]
... where it inserts spacing
19:34:25 [fantasai]
... in various places between different kana, punctuation, for Chinese and Japanese
19:34:32 [fantasai]
... and it has specific rules about where that happens
19:34:44 [fantasai]
... text-spacing property in Text L4 has a bunch of values which are fairly prescriptive about where space goes
19:35:08 [fantasai]
... so for us, the reason that we like the auto value here is it's a way for CSS text to match the native text engine
19:35:14 [fantasai]
... to get equal fidelity with native apps and webapps
19:35:25 [fantasai]
r12a: i'm not arguing against an auto value
19:35:56 [fantasai]
myles: If we have auto value in its own property, what would be the meaning if you specify "do autospacing" which for us would mean match platform *and* you supply different value to text-spacing in conjunction
19:36:11 [fantasai]
r12a: have a read of this stuff and the description I pasted I pasted into IRC
19:36:23 [fantasai]
... what I'm saying is that these are different things that involve gaps
19:36:27 [fantasai]
... for different reasons and in different ways
19:36:42 [fantasai]
myles: Question is what does it mean "do autospacing" and also say "text-spacing: trim-start"
19:36:54 [fantasai]
r12a: I'm not sure that there's a clash there
19:37:02 [fantasai]
... you're just offering content author ability to handle independently
19:37:06 [fantasai]
... I don't think they overlap
19:37:38 [addison]
fantasai: different ways of splitting the control
19:37:46 [addison]
.... text-spacing could shorthand two properties
19:37:57 [addison]
... one for punct. vs. script boundaries
19:38:29 [addison]
... or could have an indepdendent property for controlling the space replacement vs. how much
19:38:46 [addison]
... set for whole doc "how much it is" vs. turning on and off
19:38:54 [addison]
... think about what is more ergonomic for authors
19:39:00 [addison]
... want to control how much spacing
19:39:16 [addison]
... could go in another level, currently in L3, could consider in L4
19:39:50 [addison]
... for example, underline position is separate from whether it is on or off
19:39:58 [fantasai]
s/currently in/was originally in/
19:40:18 [fantasai]
myles: When reviewing r12a's document, I see text about letter-spacing, initial-line punctuation, text-indent,
19:40:27 [fantasai]
... want to make sure I'm not missing autospacing
19:40:40 [fantasai]
r12a: autospacing I'm talking about is the spacing around alphabetic or numeric phrases
19:41:00 [fantasai]
... seprately is spacing around punctuation
19:41:08 [fantasai]
... felt it easier to split up that way for readers
19:41:35 [fantasai]
<br type=lunch duration=50min>
19:42:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
19:46:26 [David-Clarke]
present+
20:26:59 [addison]
addison has joined #i18n
20:27:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
20:27:31 [addison]
Topic: ~* Lunch *~
20:30:05 [addison]
New Dial-in: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/85205096646?pwd=Z0tIVk1PdHlPZ20vQlBVRmVqSG1RZz09
20:30:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
20:40:41 [PeterR]
PeterR has joined #i18n
20:41:15 [polx]
polx has joined #i18n
20:41:27 [PeterR]
present+ PeterR
20:43:20 [addison]
Topic: Intros
20:43:32 [addison]
PeterR: Peter Rushworth
20:43:52 [addison]
PeterR: interested because of indigenous languages and making them happen in browsers
20:44:18 [addison]
... maps is my focus, but fact finding
20:44:22 [Bert]
s/Rushworth/Rushforth/
20:47:45 [addison]
David: connect with Andrew Cunningham perhaps?
20:48:57 [Bert]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:48:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html Bert
20:49:05 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS Stuff
20:49:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: color contrast discussions https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6319
20:49:16 [fantasai]
... to be aware of
20:50:05 [fantasai]
fantasai: question about whether color contrast values are affected by writing system, and how to have algos account for this
20:51:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: Another unsolved issue is top metrics for non-Western scripts https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5244
20:54:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: Related to Kaiti issue is fangsong issue https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4425
20:55:08 [fantasai]
[discussion of what styles fall back to what]
20:55:26 [fantasai]
florian: Define grasscript only over the CJK range
20:55:33 [fantasai]
... because don't want it to fall back to children's handwriting font
20:55:48 [fantasai]
dsinger: Maybe look at semantics of what the styles convey
20:55:53 [fantasai]
... e.g. if about emphasis, translate it
20:56:03 [fantasai]
florian: but what's the Khmer equivalent to writing German in Fraktur?
20:56:14 [fantasai]
dsinger: That would be archaic, that's the semantic, roughly
20:56:24 [fantasai]
... but this is how you emphasize in Chinese, so go to bold or italic in English
20:56:42 [fantasai]
florian: we sort of used to try to do, either serif or sans-serif or cursive, but moving away from that because mapping is too hard
20:56:48 [fantasai]
addison: semantically differnet and not 1-1 mapping
20:57:03 [fantasai]
... Japanese emphasis might have bg color difference, or emphasis marks, not bold or italc
20:57:08 [fantasai]
... can style em or strong to be these things
20:57:18 [fantasai]
... but really different things
20:57:34 [florian]
q?
20:57:38 [fantasai]
addison: drop-cap thing, if you try to smash everything into Western typographic, that doesn't match how fonts are structured or how the script works
20:58:03 [florian]
fantasai: what we need to consider is that we're not going to be able to map every style of font, even in western typography
20:58:07 [addison]
ack fantasai
20:58:11 [florian]
fantasai: it should not be our goal to be exhaustive
20:58:39 [florian]
fantasai: the reason to create a new generic style is if you were using that to convey semantic differences or contrast
20:59:07 [florian]
fantasai: we need to have css be able to fall back when the font is missing to something else that would express the same semantic contrast
20:59:57 [florian]
fantasai: in English text, you wouldn't switch between Times and Palatino to to express anything, but you might switch between italics or monospace or something. That needs preservation
21:00:53 [florian]
fantasai: same logic should apply to chinese: if the text switches from something to grass styles to express a distinction, then we'd need it, but I suspect you won't actually find text…
21:01:45 [florian]
fantasai: …where that is the only difference. Using a different style for a heading isn't strong enough, as there's other things that distinguish the heading.
21:03:17 [fantasai]
addison: are generics about "give me a font with this type of styling generally" or ...
21:03:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: The were added originally for that, but that's not what we need
21:03:48 [fantasai]
... fantasy or cursive are useless because their purpose is to convey a feeling and they cna't do that because such a wide variety of fonts in each category
21:04:23 [fantasai]
...
21:04:42 [fantasai]
fantasai: you can use lang tags to tweak generic choices
21:04:47 [fantasai]
dsinger: ...
21:05:05 [fantasai]
dsinger: We don't have a place to put information about shaping of certain language/writing systems
21:05:17 [fantasai]
addison: If you look at Urdu vs Arabic, they have different stylistic variations
21:05:22 [fantasai]
... not serif vs sans-serif
21:05:31 [fantasai]
... you can look at them and say their not really serif or sans-serif
21:05:45 [fantasai]
... can smash into those buckets, or do we recognize that without changing language there are different font styles
21:05:49 [fantasai]
... is it semantic thing
21:05:56 [fantasai]
... I can argue both sides, it's really hard to add generics
21:06:19 [fantasai]
... shaping engines work in specific ways with info we haave
21:06:24 [fantasai]
... some token to pass, this is what I intend
21:06:36 [fantasai]
... without being able to know what fonts are installed on a machine
21:06:49 [fantasai]
dsinger: I'm hearing it's inappropriate to talk about generics in Latin terminology
21:06:55 [fantasai]
... so we should have names for things they do in those scripts
21:07:04 [fantasai]
... but then we have a problem of translation, what does it mean in other script
21:07:20 [fantasai]
florian: don't necessarily have a problem, can apply :lang() selectors to choose fonts differently
21:07:33 [fantasai]
... but if we say that Kaiti is not cursive, but new, then how many such new things should we have?
21:07:41 [fantasai]
... do we want to go as far as fantasai said?
21:07:49 [fantasai]
... or go further, e.g. I want Humanist typeface?
21:08:12 [fantasai]
... not just about adding keywords, but also browser needs to have access to the fonts *and* know which fonts map to each keyword
21:08:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think we have two critera
21:09:02 [fantasai]
... one is what Florian mentioned, which is can we reasonably implement this generic
21:09:40 [fantasai]
... other is do we need the generic in order to ensure the semantic preservation
21:09:49 [fantasai]
... e.g. if these two fall back to the same font, will the text be less understandable
21:09:54 [fantasai]
... nevermind whether it feels appropriate
21:10:04 [fantasai]
florian: typical example would be italics in English
21:10:11 [fantasai]
... if you lose the italics, you lose the fact that there was emphasis
21:10:43 [fantasai]
... if you have a document which uses italics for emphasis and you fall back to normal text instead of italics, you lose information
21:10:48 [fantasai]
... what are the cases in other languages?
21:11:34 [Bert]
CSS font classification isn't based on Vox, but showing that others are struggling with classifications, too: -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox-ATypI_classification ATypI abandoned the Vox classification and is working on new one.
21:12:02 [florian]
fantasai: the reason for the change should be in the markup, and then you style it however you want. But it often happens that then way you style thing is that the only difference is between the font face, then we need generics to be able to preserve that distinction
21:12:28 [fantasai]
addison: I think I agree with you, but your test may be incorrect
21:12:36 [fantasai]
... if you suppose that someone used that as the only distinction
21:12:46 [fantasai]
... e.g. I've seen serif vs sans-serif, e.g. as a form of emphasis
21:13:20 [fantasai]
... but you could imagine that a document that would pass your test and still say, well, the fact that the browser smashed these two styles together is because of a limitation of our ability to express in generics
21:14:57 [florian]
fantasai: we should not introduce generics to deal with that problem just become some one-off document made a distinction, but if it is one commonly made in the language, then it calls for generics
21:15:11 [fantasai]
fantasai: ...
21:15:33 [fantasai]
florian: I would like to see generics for more things, but if we are going to get a more limited set, the criteria you mention are the minimum we should aim for
21:15:43 [fantasai]
... I think it would still be nice to pick from general categories for preferences
21:15:49 [fantasai]
... e.g. naastaliq
21:16:08 [fantasai]
... But regardless, we can't just make nice keywords in specs. The browsers need to be able to map them
21:16:26 [fantasai]
... if we create 500 generics in all known languages, it's not going to have good coverage and not going to be helpful
21:16:31 [fantasai]
addison: it's like counter styles
21:16:39 [fantasai]
... I know I want certain things, but to force everyone to implement
21:16:51 [fantasai]
... if you're styling documents can use these keywords in this way, and it will do a good job of getting fonts that matches
21:17:00 [fantasai]
florian: maybe can provide premade style sheets for this
21:17:11 [fantasai]
... but even though I would like all to be covered by browser, if we have smaller set
21:17:21 [fantasai]
... fantasai is hinting at the minimum neessary for international text to work
21:17:27 [fantasai]
... nice to go beyond, but should at least start there
21:17:36 [fantasai]
addison: it's about where font management taking plae
21:17:57 [florian]
fantasai: where it gets implemented is a bit more of an open question
21:18:05 [fantasai]
... not necessary to spec
21:18:11 [fantasai]
... up to implementations
21:18:53 [florian]
fantasai: it often happens that introducing it in CSS puts the pressure on the reste of the ecosystem to make it happen
21:19:34 [florian]
fantasai: as the i18n WG, what we need to do is to identify the critical things that needs to exist so that the earlier criteria can be handled
21:20:47 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
21:21:58 [addison]
q?
21:22:20 [florian]
fantasai: just like western designers may wish to get the distinction between serif and slab serif, Arabic designers might wish for many distinctions, but that's not a priority
21:22:25 [fantasai]
florian: if it's a one-off, that's one thing. If it's a regular pattern, need to build into CSS
21:23:05 [fantasai]
i/florian: /dsinger: if writing a document [gives example of switching font styles]
21:23:21 [florian]
fantasai: but if the common type of document wouldn't make sense on a phone because the phone doesn't show the right distinction, then that's a problem.
21:24:17 [fantasai]
addison: [...]
21:25:00 [florian]
fantasai: css should be designed in a way that as you fall back through fonts, you may loose some styling, but you shouldn't lose meaning. Whichever generics are needed to make that happen should exist
21:25:19 [fantasai]
florian: Imagine we were not all familiar with Latin, and only had distinction relevant to our own language
21:25:25 [fantasai]
... discussing about adding generic keywords
21:25:30 [fantasai]
... as i18n, and they explain italics
21:25:39 [fantasai]
... if you miss that, you'll have difficulty understanding
21:25:51 [fantasai]
... if you can't preserve that you will miss information
21:26:06 [fantasai]
... they have many different font styles, which is nice, but need italics vs non italics
21:26:16 [fantasai]
... CSSWG knows how to introduce generics
21:26:20 [fantasai]
... but doesn't know what's needed to add
21:26:41 [fantasai]
... if i18n can say, in language X you will use font face changes to distinguish these different uses
21:26:57 [fantasai]
... functions similar to switching to monospace or switching to italics in Latin
21:27:13 [fantasai]
... if i18nwg comes back and says these 7 keywords would solve these problems, CSSWG can add them
21:27:15 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
21:27:20 [fantasai]
... but i18nwg needs to find these cases
21:27:28 [fantasai]
addison: Can identify here's a group of languages, and here's what they do
21:27:36 [fantasai]
... forgetting about the outside world, this is how they classify fonts
21:28:03 [fantasai]
fantasai: but we don't care how they classify fonts if they're not using those classifications to make distinctions within the same document
21:28:10 [fantasai]
addison: there are mental classificatoins
21:28:20 [fantasai]
... for emphasis, we've introduced different ways to style emphasis
21:28:30 [fantasai]
... because obliquing things is not the way to do it
21:28:36 [fantasai]
... We can describe what those all are
21:28:45 [fantasai]
... but can show what the cases are and have a discussion of where the bar should be
21:28:51 [fantasai]
... before we take the plunge and introduce a new generic
21:28:58 [fantasai]
... or should we do interstitial work that's separate
21:30:03 [florian]
fantasai: nastaliq vs kufi is not going to be a distinction used within a document to contrast things. Would be nice to have, but not critical for understanding
21:31:52 [fantasai]
[discussion of kaiti vs non-kaiti being used simlar to italic vs non-italic]
21:32:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think the problem with classifing kaiti as cursive would be that if you ask for kaiti, you might get grasscript which would be totally inappropriate
21:33:14 [fantasai]
florian: Would be like asking for monospace to express code and fell back to Zapfino
21:33:21 [fantasai]
... the contrast would be there, but what it means is lost
21:33:33 [fantasai]
... falling back to monospace would be better
21:34:00 [fantasai]
dsinger: in this document, use the font as distinction, and in other as stylistic
21:34:00 [addison]
q?
21:34:06 [fantasai]
... what do we do in that case
21:34:13 [fantasai]
... want both documents to be readable at least
21:34:41 [fantasai]
florian: problem of mapping fonts to categories, browser can do it if we introduce 3 new keywords; but not if we introduce 50
21:34:54 [fantasai]
... a handful (worldwide), they can do it and it will be usable
21:35:05 [fantasai]
... if instead of 3 (ignoring the 2 uselss ones) we had 8 or 9, would be manageable
21:35:14 [fantasai]
... if we are asking for 50, will not be impemented
21:35:21 [fantasai]
... so what are the few extra ones that are critical for understandability?
21:36:26 [fantasai]
florian: can we action i18n to find the cases where font face category switches are needed for understanding common documents?
21:36:34 [fantasai]
addison: other challenge is we'll not find a global generic
21:36:47 [fantasai]
... we'll find a set of traditions over here with Kaiti, over there with another one, etc.
21:36:53 [fantasai]
... will find islands of variations
21:36:56 [fantasai]
florian: that's fine
21:37:10 [fantasai]
David-Clarke: Would things like old-fashioned/modern/etc be types of categories to look
21:37:16 [dsinger]
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21:38:07 [fantasai]
fantasai: no, because that's just a stylistic preference
21:38:17 [fantasai]
florian: The distinction here is critical to have for understanding documents, vs stylistic preferences
21:38:49 [addison]
action: addison: follow up with r12a and others about gap analysis for font generics
21:38:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1195 - Follow up with r12a and others about gap analysis for font generics [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-09-19].
21:39:17 [florian]
Florian: the distinction between old style or modern isn't a wrong one, but it isn't a critical one in the sense that both aren't commonly used in the same document to contrast two pieces of text
21:42:03 [fantasai]
Topic: Triage
21:42:06 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?page=2&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Ai18n-tracker
21:46:08 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
21:48:00 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1790
21:49:26 [addison]
fantasai: some kind of overview might make sense to me
21:49:50 [addison]
... lot of details handled in there, not just baseline alignment not just in one writing system, but when mixed
21:49:59 [addison]
... and this section tries to account for all of that
21:50:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
21:53:58 [fantasai]
overview of baselines in CSS at https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/#css-metrics
21:55:28 [fantasai]
fantasai: discussion of text-spacing and adding rules to handle non-fullwidth punctuation https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6091
21:55:41 [polx]
polx has joined #i18n
21:58:50 [polx]
polx has joined #i18n
22:01:24 [addison]
action: atsushi: follow up with jlreq on csswg#6091 to see if non-CJK enclosing punctuation should be included in space-trimming
22:01:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1196 - Follow up with jlreq on csswg#6091 to see if non-cjk enclosing punctuation should be included in space-trimming [on Atsushi Shimono - due 2022-09-19].
22:01:58 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1282
22:03:18 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1282#issuecomment-952428897
22:05:28 [addison]
fantasai: review miriam's comment linked above and convince csswg about direction
22:15:35 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6915
22:18:16 [fantasai]
[addison explains how lang tags for undetermined language work]
22:31:36 [florian]
conclusion 1: :lang("") matches lang=""
22:32:12 [florian]
conclusion 2: :lang("*") matches everything but lang=""
22:32:40 [florian]
conclusion 3: maybe add a note about lang="und" and lang="" being treated distinctly, despite having similar semantics
22:33:23 [fantasai]
ACTION: florian to reread issue, and if conclusions still make sense in the end, post as the proposal
22:33:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1197 - Reread issue, and if conclusions still make sense in the end, post as the proposal [on Florian Rivoal - due 2022-09-19].
22:35:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
22:38:21 [addison]
present+ David Singer (guest, css)
22:38:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
22:39:11 [addison]
zakim, bye
22:39:11 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Atsushi, (virtual), Richard, Florian, (guest), Greg, Francois, Fuqiao, xfq, Paul, mathml), Bert, fantasai, David-Clarke,
22:39:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
22:39:55 [addison]
Topic: AOB?
22:40:09 [addison]
<Meeting adjourned for the day at 15:40>
22:40:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-i18n-minutes.html addison
23:47:43 [polx]
polx has joined #i18n