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15:42:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:42:37 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
15:42:51 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2022-09-12: https://www.w3.org/mid/ee036f44b6542bbf52f8383636a81b76@w3.org
15:42:52 <ivan> Chair: dauwhe, wendy, shinya
15:42:52 <ivan> Date: 2022-09-12
15:42:52 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/mid/ee036f44b6542bbf52f8383636a81b76@w3.org
15:42:52 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group F2F, 1st Day
15:42:52 <ivan> Regrets+ ToshiakiKoike
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15:52:16 <dauwhe> present+
15:54:04 <ivan> present+
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15:55:56 <wendyreid> present+
15:56:03 <duga> present+
15:56:13 <tzviya> present+
15:56:18 <shiestyle> present+
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15:57:37 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is here?
15:57:37 <Zakim> Present: dauwhe, ivan, wendyreid, duga, tzviya, shiestyle
15:57:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see bkardell_, duga, wendyreid, shiestyle, tzviya, dauwhe, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, romain, github-bot, Github, npd, hober, jcraig, florian
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15:58:44 <ivan> present+ gregorio, dan
15:59:19 <ivan> guests+ david_singer
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15:59:36 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
15:59:56 <romain> present+
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16:00:07 <AvneeshSingh> present+
16:00:11 <rickj_> present+
16:00:28 <ivan> present+ charles
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16:03:49 <gpellegrino> present+
16:04:04 <dlazin> present+
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16:06:37 <CharlesL> present+
16:07:40 <ivan> present+ daihei
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16:08:27 <GeorgeK> present+
16:09:30 <duga> scribe+
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16:10:10 <mgarrish> present+
16:10:12 <tzviya> CharlesL: RIP Ben, We will deeply miss you
16:10:35 <duga> wendyreid: Different format today
16:10:39 <tzviya> CEPC https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc
16:10:43 <duga> ... will be a presentation from Ivan
16:10:52 <ivan> present+ mattg
16:10:58 <duga> ... Then we will focus on tests, including running them
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16:11:43 <duga> ivan: [Sharing slides on screen]
16:11:58 <duga> ... brief overview of where we are
16:12:32 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/2022/Talks/EPUB-IH/?full
16:12:40 <duga> ... odd group, since we are not starting from a blank slate
16:12:57 <duga> ... WG is starting with a long history of work and requirements
16:13:13 <nbarron__> nbarron__ has joined #EPUB
16:13:51 <duga> ... 2017 is the starting point of W3C work on epub, but was already on version 3.1
16:14:36 <duga> ... First job was to "fix" 3.1 with 3.2
16:15:28 <duga> ... Now we are on 3.3 on Rec track
16:15:31 <Victor_> Victor_ has joined #EPUB
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16:16:21 <duga> ... Had to go through horizontal reviews, need tests, plus some editorial things
16:16:39 <Bill_Kasdorf____> present+
16:17:08 <duga> ... we do require all 3.2 documents to be valid 3.3 documents (in our charter)
16:17:40 <duga> ... And epubcheck is coming with 3.3 support
16:18:13 <duga> ... beta release of epubcheck is already available
16:18:30 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epubcheck/releases
16:18:54 <duga> ... limited new features (webp and opus media types, and dir attribute in package)
16:20:05 <duga> ... epub:type should not be used for a11y anymore, use aria instead
16:20:36 <duga> ... Editorial changes - major reorg
16:21:01 <duga> ... It wasn't obvious where to find things in the old organization
16:21:43 <duga> ... there wasn't clear delineation of author requirements and reading system requirements
16:22:00 <duga> ... Very hard for authors to read through it all and figure out what they should do
16:22:36 <duga> ... New organization breaks out core (for creators), reading systems, and a11y
16:23:42 <duga> ... very thorough review which led to improvements in the spec
16:24:54 <duga> ... some clarification of what we meant (eg URI handling) plus some entirely new sections
16:25:10 <duga> ... Privacy and security sections added
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16:26:44 <duga> ... during these reviews we pulled some things out as they weren't really used and were an attack vector
16:27:17 <duga> ... interoperability wasn't very clear, mainly just vague comments
16:27:36 <duga> ... IDPF had some old tests, but they were for a different purpose
16:27:44 <duga> ... created a new test suite for epub
16:28:10 <duga> ... We are *not* duplicating existing suites (eg html, svg, css)
16:28:54 <duga> ... No need to test them, since reading systems are typically built on browser engines which are already tested
16:29:06 <duga> ... Focus only on epub specific features
16:29:32 <duga> ... each test focuses on a single normative statement
16:29:47 <duga> ... Currently around 150 tests today
16:29:57 <mateus> mateus has joined #epub
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16:30:26 <duga> ... If we can't get two implementations, then we have a problem (more to come)
16:30:41 <duga> ... Tests have a pretty table with details of each test
16:31:06 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests
16:31:07 <duga> ... spec and tests are mutually linked (tests point at spec, spec points at test)
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16:31:16 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/
16:32:01 <duga> ... [showing mathml test as example]
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16:34:06 <duga> ... another example, language, which has no impact on the text of the content, just the metadata
16:35:30 <duga> ... tests uses the quote element
16:36:02 <duga> ... just two examples of what tests look like
16:36:21 <duga> ... we will have a final report
16:37:00 <duga> ... just sample data now, but we need to fill it out with real data
16:37:17 <duga> ... so what happens to statements in the core spec? How do we test those?
16:37:25 <duga> ... epubcheck is the answer
16:37:50 <duga> ... Will take all the epubcheck tests and make a report from those
16:38:01 <duga> ... What about a11y and metadata?
16:38:09 <duga> ... Will depend on usage
16:38:25 <duga> ... need enough organizations using them
16:38:42 <duga> ... What about unimplemented features?
16:38:49 <duga> ... That will be a topic for this f2f
16:39:14 <duga> ... Some features were added because they sounded good at the time and hoped someone would implement it
16:39:24 <duga> ... sometimes that worked, sometimes it didn't
16:40:04 <duga> ... currently called "under-implemented"
16:40:27 <duga> ... Risky to use, epubcheck accepts them, but they do not pass the CR tests
16:40:55 <duga> ... Usually in W3C it is more straightforward - just remove the feature
16:41:05 <duga> ... but our charter binds us to backwards compat
16:41:19 <duga> ... So no 3.2 document can be rejected in 3.3
16:41:32 <duga> ... Unusual, but basically our only option
16:41:58 <duga> ... Deprecated features are essentially removed, there are no tests for these
16:42:16 <CharlesL> q+
16:42:18 <duga> ... There are also legacy features for epub 2 support
16:42:28 <duga> ... same as deprecated, no tests
16:42:29 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
16:42:49 <duga> CharlesL: We didn't add any new features, correct?
16:43:14 <duga> ivan: Only added new features when they were absolutely needed (eg dir attribute)
16:43:21 <duga> ... and some in security and privacy
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16:43:52 <duga> ... examples of underimplemented features
16:44:10 <duga> ... rendition:flow turns off pagination
16:44:16 <duga> ... RS do implement this
16:44:29 <duga> ... but RS do it at user request, not author request
16:45:11 <duga> ... If all RS ignore the author request then we may need to mark as under implements
16:45:19 <duga> ... fallbacks is a trickier case
16:46:12 <duga> ... Given a chain of media types, RS should pick what they can support
16:46:20 <duga> ... May not have many implementations
16:47:05 <duga> ... some features are already removed due to no usage and no implementations
16:48:03 <duga> ... 3.3 is here, technical changes are generally done
16:48:12 <duga> ... start using it for content now
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16:48:51 <duga> ... final standard will be published winter next year
16:49:08 <duga> ... please run the tests and return a report
16:49:38 <duga> ... That's all!
16:50:01 <duga> wendyreid: Questions? Comments?
16:50:13 <duga> dauwhe: That was awesome, thank you!
16:50:50 <mateus> present+
16:51:02 <duga> wendyreid: Intros. Will not be scribing this bit.
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16:57:13 <ivan> present+ mateus
16:59:02 <ivan> present+ yuyu
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17:08:26 <dhall> present+ David Hall (dhall - Apple)
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17:21:02 <gpellegrino> scribe+
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17:21:35 <wendyreid> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13wgptApSVbQbYzi2L5VXe3D_1QLzJOTGySUAtOxn4sA/edit#gid=0
17:21:38 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: today we'll continue the meeting focusing on testing
17:21:58 <gpellegrino> ... there are still few tests that needs to been written
17:21:59 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/
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17:22:19 <gpellegrino> ... then we have to run the tests!
17:22:54 <gpellegrino> ... the goal is to finish the creation of the tests and start testing the apps
17:23:49 <gpellegrino> ivan_: while writing tests I've run them locally on my mac
17:24:06 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: the other part is to be sure that the tests are clear
17:24:23 <gpellegrino> q+
17:25:09 <gpellegrino> ... and understandable
17:25:23 <gpellegrino> ... tomorrow we want to discuss the results of today
17:25:41 <gpellegrino> ... to understand if some tests have to be revisited
17:25:59 <gpellegrino> ... check if there are features that are under-implemented
17:26:06 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
17:26:10 <duga> q+
17:26:51 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Do we need to compile the test results into a JSON file?
17:27:07 <wendyreid> dlazin: Yes, that would be the easiest way
17:27:34 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Second question, most reading systems do tweaks on the files before giving them to end users, if we sideload we might get different results?
17:28:16 <wendyreid> ivan_: We are testing the correctness of the recommendation, if during the publication process, user agent A does something to the file, compared to the author's version, we have no way of controlling that
17:28:51 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/contributing
17:29:37 <gpellegrino> duga: we may fail with sideloading
17:30:05 <mgarrish> q+
17:30:10 <gpellegrino> ... but we may get results if we pass the file trough the publisher pipeline
17:30:34 <wendyreid> ack duga
17:30:48 <CharlesL> q+
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17:31:58 <gpellegrino> ivan_: what happens when a file is sideloaded?
17:32:15 <gpellegrino> duga: the file goes to a completely different pipeline
17:32:15 <rickj_> this is true for us (VitalSource Bookshelf) as well.  Sideloading vs. publisher loading are different processes, and have some feature issues associated with them
17:32:32 <gpellegrino> ivan_: from my point of view those are two different implementations
17:33:07 <gpellegrino> ... in theory I could run all the tests on my mac on Apple Books
17:33:45 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
17:33:49 <duga> q+
17:33:49 <wendyreid> q+
17:33:51 <gpellegrino> ... so I think ideally that the test results from an engine should come from the engine itself
17:34:46 <gpellegrino> mgarrish: since there are a lot of tests, do we have a short-list of tests that may be "problematic", so we can start with those?
17:34:58 <rickj_> q+
17:35:00 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
17:35:08 <wendyreid> ack duga
17:35:21 <gpellegrino> duga: is there a repository for the files?
17:35:27 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: it's in the github repo
17:36:15 <gpellegrino> ... it would be easier to have a sub set of tests, but at the same time I think one goal is to have a feedback on how and where EPUB features work
17:36:19 <GeorgeK> q+
17:36:42 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
17:36:44 <wendyreid> ack rickj_
17:36:50 <gpellegrino> ... so having a table with the results I think would be useful
17:37:22 <wendyreid> q+
17:37:39 <ivan_> q+
17:37:43 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
17:37:53 <gpellegrino> rickj_: in the early days of epubtest.org we had problems with maintaining it updated
17:37:56 <wendyreid> ack ivan_
17:38:01 <wendyreid> q+ GeorgeK
17:38:13 <gpellegrino> ivan_: for sure it is complicated to maintain it updated
17:38:22 <tzviya> q+ to respond to rickj_
17:38:51 <gpellegrino> ... normally in W3C when a WG ends we create a new maintenance WG for updating the results
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17:40:31 <gpellegrino> rickj_: the JSON file should contain the version number of the app and the date of the testing
17:40:49 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
17:40:49 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to respond to rickj_
17:41:02 <gpellegrino> ivan_: we have a granularity to track implementations on different systems
17:41:57 <wendyreid> q+
17:42:01 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
17:42:12 <gpellegrino> tzviya: I share Rick's concerns, but we can't continue the specs without the tests. Eventually those will become historical document of the implementations in this year
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17:42:26 <dlazin_> https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/contributing#implementation-report-files
17:42:36 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
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17:43:15 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: can we use the JSON metadata so tell if the files where sideloaded or pass through the publishers' pipeline
17:43:39 <Judy> q+
17:43:49 <wendyreid> ack Judy
17:43:50 <ivan_> q+
17:44:02 <ivan_> present+ judy
17:44:02 <gpellegrino> GeorgeK: maybe we have the possibility to test if the reading system is accessible, for example testing MathML
17:44:38 <gpellegrino> Judy: I think there are WGs that do accessibility testing on they're specs
17:44:48 <wendyreid> ack ivan_
17:45:19 <gpellegrino> ivan_: I think is up to us to check implementations that are accessible
17:45:21 <wendyreid> q+
17:46:00 <gpellegrino> ... at this moment our first concern is to test the specs as they are
17:46:02 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
17:47:23 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: Maybe we may have a separate feedback for accessibility, also accessibility testing is not always a yes/no test
17:47:39 <ivan_> q+
17:47:40 <gpellegrino> ... I think we should focus first on general testing
17:47:42 <wendyreid> ack ivan_
17:49:00 <dlazin_> To prepare an implementation report (ideally for "your" reading system), copy the xx-template.json file here: https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests/tree/main/reports
17:49:20 <gpellegrino> ivan_: we may add to some tests some descriptions for defining what we aspect from screenreader consuption of the content
17:49:42 <tzviya> q+
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17:49:59 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
17:50:02 <dlazin_> Once committed, your RS will appear as a column at https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/results#implementations-results
17:50:38 <gpellegrino> tzviya: I think for the vast majority of tests we don't need it since we're based on HTML specs
17:50:51 <gpellegrino> ... so we don't have to test it for accessibility
17:51:15 <gpellegrino> q+
17:51:20 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
17:51:40 <mgarrish> q+
17:51:44 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: My proposal would be to add an additional field to say whether it's been tested with a screen reader
17:51:55 <wendyreid> ivan_: Add an additional field in results
17:52:18 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
17:52:46 <gpellegrino> mgarrish: I agree with tzviya: we should not re-testing the web technologies for accessibility
17:52:59 <gpellegrino> ... I would focus on EPUB specific features
17:53:57 <dlazin_> And in general, instructions here: https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/contributing
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17:54:39 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: ok, I think we can start testing
17:54:41 <dlazin_> This is mentioned in that documentation, but the needed (unwritten) tests are https://tinyurl.com/epub-tests
17:54:53 <gpellegrino> ... dlazin_ has put all the info in the IRC
17:55:18 <dhall> q+
17:55:26 <wendyreid> ack dhall
17:55:48 <gpellegrino> dhall: how do we submit the results? Using PRs?
17:56:31 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: yes, using PRs
17:56:36 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests
18:06:06 <dhall> For iOS/Apple Books, you can airdrop an .EPUB and it will ask if you want to open in the Books application.
18:06:51 <dhall> present-
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18:10:51 <dhall> present+
18:11:23 <dlazin_> PR for empty implementation reports: https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests/pull/202
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18:16:52 <dlazin_> Committed now, so if you fork https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests/tree/main/reports, you can start filling out the major platforms' implementation reports. Have fun!
18:17:48 <dlazin_> The current proposal is that, to get us to 2 implementations ASAP, we federate the work of testing Apple, Google, Kobo, and Thorium. (Kobo not committed yet; Wendy is working on it.)
18:18:35 <dlazin_> So please call out which tests you're going to run (say "I will do all the cnt-* tests for Apple Books on macOS") and we can all merge our work together.
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18:20:19 <dlazin_> And, in the spirit of that ... I will do all the cnt-* tests for Apple Books on macOS :)
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18:26:43 <dlazin_> To map between test *titles* and IDs, see https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/
18:32:19 <dhall> Hearing conversation around cnt-svg-css - a missing .epub?
18:33:17 <dhall> Oh never mind, I'm seeing it now.
18:35:42 <dhall> I can attempt the cnt-* tests for Apple Books on iOS
18:36:56 <dlazin_> Thanks, dhall!
18:37:07 <dlazin_> Here's the PR for my first batch, as an example: https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests/pull/204
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18:37:46 <dlazin_> And yes, alphabetization in Finder is funny, so if you're on a Mac (and maybe other platforms) you may find the .epubs are alphabetized in a funny way relative to the folders.
18:39:07 <dlazin_> I will now do all the css-* tests for Apple Books on macOS :)
18:40:42 <romain> I can start with all the pub-cmt-* for Thorium on macOS
18:40:57 <dhall> Suggestion: Add test name ("cnt-css-fonts") to test documents themselves.
18:42:27 <dauwhe> it turns out epubcheck doesn't like it when the epub is encrypted :)
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18:49:17 <dauwhe> wrote a test of zip encryption of the container. Having trouble with my GitHub tokens... I'll do a PR when I get that sorted out.
18:50:17 <dhall> iOS cnt-* tests all pass.  Now to get my GitHub account setup properly to push and create PR...
18:50:34 <dhall> *Apple Books tests that is.
18:51:27 <romain> @dlazin_ it seems I don't have push permissions on the gh repo. shall I use a fork instead or can you easily add all wg members to it?
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18:56:39 <ivan_> zakim, end meeting
18:56:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, ivan, wendyreid, duga, tzviya, shiestyle, gregorio, dan, MasakazuKitahara, romain, AvneeshSingh, rickj_, charles, gpellegrino,
18:56:43 <Zakim> ... dlazin, CharlesL, daihei, GeorgeK, mgarrish, mattg, Bill_Kasdorf____, mateus, yuyu, David, Hall, (dhall, -, Apple), judy, dhall
18:56:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:56:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/12-epub-minutes.html Zakim
18:56:45 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:56:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
18:58:05 <ivan_> rrsagent, bye
18:58:05 <RRSAgent> I see no action items