14:59:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rch
14:59:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/31-rch-irc
14:59:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:59:21 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
14:59:46 <phila> meeting: RCH WG Kick off meeting
15:00:02 <phila> chair+ phila, peacekeeper
15:00:17 <pchampin> present+
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15:01:16 <phila> chair+ markus_sabadello
15:01:21 <gkellogg> present+ Gregg_Kellogg
15:01:26 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:01:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/31-rch-minutes.html phila
15:01:51 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:01:53 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/31-rch-minutes.html phila
15:02:04 <leonardr> present+
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15:02:13 <phila> chair- peacekeeper
15:02:14 <dlongley> present+
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15:02:16 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/31-rch-minutes.html phila
15:02:33 <markus_sabadello> present+
15:02:42 <ivan> present+
15:03:23 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rch
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15:04:05 <manu> present+
15:04:46 <phila> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1RtJMebmGYQ3l73ayntcrvxJDqtr3LdlFhM47-lSIZqE/edit#slide=id.g142dbe090c2_0_60
15:05:53 <manu> scribe+
15:06:06 <manu> scribe-
15:06:06 <markus_sabadello> scribe+
15:06:26 <markus_sabadello> phila: We will scribe every meeting.
15:06:37 <markus_sabadello> phila: I'm Phil Archer of GS1, org behind barcodes.
15:07:02 <markus_sabadello> phila: Been with GS1 for 5 years, before that at W3C working on Semantic Web
15:07:29 <markus_sabadello> phila: I'm here as someone with backgroun in Linked Data, vocabularies, ontologies, etc.
15:07:56 <phila> markus_sabadello: Introduces self. From Danube Tech, working on decentralized ID technologies
15:08:05 <phila> ... member of the DID WG and the VCWG
15:08:28 <phila> ... always had a strong interest in digital identities tech, JDON-LD, and the proofs that we need.
15:09:09 <markus_sabadello> Pierre-Antoine: I'm PA, associate professor of computer science in Lyon, been participating in RDF-related working groups
15:09:20 <markus_sabadello> Pierre-Antoine: Took a sabbatical 18 months ago, joined W3C team as fellow.
15:09:30 <markus_sabadello> Pierre-Antoine: I'm team contact of a number of groups including this one.
15:09:45 <markus_sabadello> Pierre-Antoine: I will also be contact in upcoming RDF-Star WG and DID WG
15:10:10 <markus_sabadello> ivan: In "ancient times" I was in the Semantic Web activity in W3C, then handed over to phila
15:10:18 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rch
15:10:21 <markus_sabadello> ivan: Now moved on to digital publishing, staff contact of epub WG
15:10:40 <TallTed> present+
15:10:45 <markus_sabadello> ivan: Also staff contact of DID WG, and before involved in JSON-LD WG
15:10:51 <markus_sabadello> ivan: Now I do VC WG
15:11:13 <markus_sabadello> ivan: I have actually retired a year ago, in the Netherlands. I work 50% of my time.
15:11:35 <markus_sabadello> ivan: I was also part of a group people who got this WG up and running
15:11:47 <markus_sabadello> ivan: I am NOT staff contact in this group, just interested
15:12:01 <dlehn1> present+
15:12:26 <markus_sabadello> Dan Yamamoto: I appreciate the invitation, I work for Internet  Initiative Japan, not currently a W3C member. I'm an Invited Expert.
15:12:50 <markus_sabadello> Dan Yamamoto: I work on a project for ZKP for Linked Data, includes RDF hashing for specialized BBS+ signature schemes
15:12:59 <markus_sabadello> Dan Yamamoto: Project members were invited by chairs to this WG
15:13:08 <markus_sabadello> Dan Yamamoto: We have a live demo ZKP-LD playground
15:13:25 <markus_sabadello> Dan Yamamoto: I look forward to working with you, this is my first time in W3C
15:14:16 <markus_sabadello> leonardr: In this context, I am chair of technical WG of the Coalition for Content Provenance, focuses ensuring provenance and trust for assets
15:14:27 <markus_sabadello> leonardr: Been working with DID and VC groups and utilizing those technologies
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15:14:55 <markus_sabadello> leonardr: Also project editor+chair for the Working Group 11, in an RDF based technology
15:15:28 <markus_sabadello> gkellogg: Most recently I spent most of my time on JSON-LD, now we have a community group working on YAML-LD
15:15:39 <markus_sabadello> gkellogg: Been involved with most RDF work for 12-13 years
15:15:48 <markus_sabadello> gkellogg: I've had my hands in almost ever RDF serialization format
15:16:33 <markus_sabadello> Tobias: I'm assistant professor at university in Amsterdam, on a part-time basis. I've been working on things related to this WG, for the past 10 years, canonicalization and hashing.
15:17:06 <markus_sabadello> Tobias: I've applied canonicalization and hashing in an isolated way, there hasn't been a coordinated effort
15:17:18 <pchampin> https://nanopub.org/
15:17:27 <markus_sabadello> Tobias: I have some university obligations, but now will also be founder of a startup, to create impact
15:18:23 <markus_sabadello> aalobaid: I'm a researcher at the Ontology Engineering Group in Madrid, I work mainly on RDF graph construction and semantic labeling. This is my work time participating in a charter
15:20:19 <markus_sabadello> AndyS: I'm Andy Seaborne. In this group, I'm affiliated with Apache Software Foundation, on the Jena RDF toolkit. Also work for a startup that uses RDF and has interest in provenance and integrity of data, and sharing between organizations.
15:20:43 <markus_sabadello> AndyS: I have both work and personal interest in this work.
15:21:19 <markus_sabadello> dlongley: I'm Dave Longley with Digital Bazaar, been working on standards for over a decade. Some of the standards are JSON-LD, VCs, also some work on input documents of this group.
15:22:24 <markus_sabadello> manu: Wonderful to see so many face we've known for a very long time. This is a great day, this has been 10 years in the making. I've worked with many of you including RDFa, JSON-LD, VCs, DIDs. Currently I'm editor for Data Integrity specification, which hopes to use the output of this group.
15:22:31 <markus_sabadello> manu: Looking forward to working with all of you.
15:22:56 <markus_sabadello> dlehn1: Also with Digital Bazaar, been working on JSON-LD, usually work on implementation details.
15:23:43 <TallTed> https://www.w3.org/community/credibility/
15:24:00 <markus_sabadello> TallTed: I'm with OpenLink Software, involved in W3C groups related to Linked Data, etc. If you pull a PR, you will find me make it more readable. I don't code, but I have a strong understanding how things are supposed to fit together. Try to liaison with Credibility Community Group.
15:24:08 <markus_sabadello> https://www.w3.org/2022/07/rch-wg-charter/
15:24:19 <phila> scribe+ phila
15:24:27 <phila> markus_sabadello: Shares screen to show charter
15:24:50 <phila> markus_sabadello: ... walks through the sections
15:25:18 <phila> ... RDF C18N & Hashing is about RDF. VCs have been mentioned, there is a link of course
15:25:40 <phila> ... VCs can inclde proofs and signatures. For that you need c18n and hash
15:26:03 <phila> ... we've heard lots of interest in te intros. VCs are one use case, but not the only one.
15:26:16 <phila> ... Linked Data Spaces will also have interest I think, outside VCs
15:26:56 <phila> ... c18n ... means creating one default/preferred represetnation of something that can have several.
15:27:11 <phila> ... we're not canonicalizing a JSON-LD doc, but the abstract data model behind it
15:27:29 <phila> ... hashing - everyone knows what that means. Can have a large number of applications. Not just signing
15:27:46 <phila> ... hashlinks construct links that contain a hash of hte expected data
15:27:58 <leonardr> q+
15:28:06 <phila> ... charter mentions a number of publications as inpur docs
15:28:23 <phila> ack leonardr
15:29:04 <phila> leonardr: I completely understand the desire to c18n the general expression rather than a specific serialization. Does that imply that the algos for c18n specific serializations are in or out of scope?
15:29:16 <phila> markus_sabadello: We're workng at the abstract data model level, not the JSOn-LD
15:29:30 <dlongley> s/c18n/c14n/
15:29:50 <phila> leonardr: Good. It might be relevant to add to the out of scope section that translations of a specific serialization to the abstract
15:29:59 <phila> markus_sabadello: Yes, I don't think that's in our scope
15:30:39 <phila> pchampin: We can make some changes to the charter. I think liaison is one we can change. Scope inclusing out of scope, cannot be changed
15:31:00 <phila> markus_sabadello: Talking of what is out of scope - the definition of new crypto algorithms
15:31:09 <dlongley> q+
15:31:12 <phila> ... so it's about how to use them in RDF Dataset
15:31:43 <phila> markus_sabadello: Higher level signature schemes are not in scope. SCope shoudl be relatively narrow
15:31:58 <gkellogg> q+ to ask about relationship with dataset isomorphism and relationship to RDF-star
15:32:17 <phila> dlongley: In response to leonardr - in order to create any test factors, we're going to have to define some kind of work
15:32:22 <phila> ... or it won't work.
15:32:29 <ivan> q+
15:32:34 <phila> leonardr: We should talk about that when we et into testing. Slippery slope
15:33:00 <phila> markus_sabadello: To create test suites, they can use certain tech that is not in scope in order to be able to implement it
15:33:16 <phila> markus_sabadello: That doesn't make it is scope. That's not what's being tested
15:33:18 <manu> q+
15:33:21 <manu> q-
15:33:27 <dlongley> this group should not be defining new RDF serializations (only reusing them as needed)
15:33:39 <manu> +1
15:33:47 <AndyS> Existing RDF formats define a mapping to the RDF abstract data model as part of their specs.
15:33:49 <phila> q?
15:33:56 <phila> ack dlongley
15:34:04 <phila> ack gkellogg
15:34:04 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to ask about relationship with dataset isomorphism and relationship to RDF-star
15:34:05 <manu> we also may need to talk about how input/output serializations / specs are affected by our work here.
15:34:16 <leonardr> @manu/@dlongley - though I worry about use perhaps showing "preference" to serializations and/or implementations of them...
15:34:28 <ivan> q-
15:34:32 <ivan> q+
15:34:37 <phila> gkellogg: It seems there is a close relationship between isomorphism and the canonicalisation. Might there be somethingn to say about that?
15:34:38 <manu> True, always a concern, leonardr
15:35:14 <phila> gkellogg: ANd the netx thing to think about - if we have quads - we are going to take into cnsideration of RDF-star
15:35:26 <phila> ... we'll need to discuss that. It needs to be in scope
15:35:33 <phila> q?
15:35:36 <phila> ack ivan
15:36:12 <phila> ivan: The isoprphism issue came up in the charter discussion. There's clearly a close relationship between the two. If wo are canonical then they have the smae morphology
15:36:23 <manu> Yes, we absolutely have to deal w/ graph isomorphism in the work we do in this group... it's unavoidable if the goal is to create a generalized solution to RDF Dataset Canonicalization.
15:36:37 <phila> ivan: We can keep in our minds... but it's not part of any recommendation. We can publsh whatever notes we want to do.
15:36:44 <phila> ivan: It's certainly a topic.
15:37:18 <pchampin> q+
15:37:26 <phila> ivan: The topic of RDF* came up late in the discussion. I'm not an expert in it, but I thought that builds on the RDF model. An RDF* graph can be mapped onto an RDF graph
15:37:42 <AndyS> q+
15:37:44 <phila> ivan: If this is true, then c18n works. But we can't work on it normatively as it's not in the charter
15:37:58 <phila> ivan: But we have a liaison and the same staff contact
15:38:29 <phila> markus_sabadello: We should definitiely track RDF* and maybe a Note
15:38:38 <phila> q?
15:38:42 <phila> ack pchampin
15:39:32 <phila> pchampin: As the staff contact of both groups, I will ensure that communication occurs between this and RDF*. Groups didn't exist when we were writing the charter
15:39:36 <phila> ack AndyS
15:40:26 <phila> AndyS: I think P-A has covered most of it. I'm sure we can do isomorphism, even if not c18n
15:40:48 <phila> markus_sabadello: Reviews the the normative deliverables
15:41:24 <phila> markus_sabadello: The hash Rec will specify how to apply a hash function to an RDF dataset, and one of the steps will be the c18N step
15:41:37 <phila> markus_sabadello: So one spec uses the other
15:42:09 <phila> markus_sabadello: I think there will be some interesting variation. We've heard already about zero knowledge proofs
15:42:28 <phila> markus_sabadello: We might talk about VCs and our relationship if we have time
15:43:03 <phila> markus_sabadello: We should mention - in some CGs there has already been a lot of work on c18n. VCs are already canonicalizing and hashing so this group won't start from scratch
15:43:26 <phila> ... specifically there's a draft from Dave and Manu (and Rachel I believe)
15:43:45 <phila> ... we want to recognise this existing work
15:44:03 <phila> ... Doesn't mean that we have to use it, but we should recognise such documents
15:44:14 <phila> q?
15:45:00 <markus_sabadello> Explainer document: https://www.w3.org/2022/07/rch-wg-charter/explainer.html
15:45:33 <AndyS> q+ to ask about non-normative tests
15:45:51 <gkellogg> The CG also has a testsuite: https://github.com/json-ld/rdf-dataset-canonicalization/tree/main/tests
15:46:53 <AndyS> ack AndyS
15:46:53 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about non-normative tests
15:46:54 <phila> markus_sabadello: I think that's it for the scope and deliverables. We can cover the time line at a future meeting
15:47:12 <manu> +1, we do not want (nor expect) a rubber stamp on the input documents -- we are all seeking a thorough multi-disciplinary expert review and actively analyzed attack models against the algorithms presented. :)
15:47:13 <phila> ... we don't have to run for the full 24 months :-)
15:47:44 <phila> markus_sabadello: Please review the charter and we'll talk about that again next time.
15:48:07 <markus_sabadello> phila: W3C meeting are expected to finish 5 min early, this is good practice
15:48:26 <markus_sabadello> phila: Will talk about TPAC now
15:48:30 <gkellogg> q+
15:48:39 <markus_sabadello> phila: Does anybody know already that they want to be an editor? Requires work, but you will be remembered :)
15:48:53 <markus_sabadello> phila: We will obviously need editors to drive delivery of the documents.
15:48:55 <gkellogg> q-
15:49:12 <markus_sabadello> phila: TPAC is in 2 weeks, we are meeting for 2 hours together with VC WG.
15:49:27 <manu> +1 to meet every other week (alternating w/ the VCWG)
15:49:57 <markus_sabadello> phila: Our planned call schedule is to meet every 2 weeks at this current time, which is aligned with VC WG also meeting at that time at the alternate time slot
15:50:11 <markus_sabadello> phila: Dan, what time is it for you, how is this time slot?
15:50:28 <markus_sabadello> Dan Yamamoto: It's midnight, but I can accept that
15:50:44 <markus_sabadello> phila: Anybody else in a difficult time zone?
15:50:51 <markus_sabadello> gkellogg: It's morning for me
15:51:12 <markus_sabadello> phila: At the moment we think every 2 weeks is enough, but this may change. We may also have task forces that meet separately, but we will start with this schedule
15:51:34 <markus_sabadello> phila: We have the 2 hour meeting at TPAC with VC WG. I will be at TPAC in Vancouver
15:51:40 <markus_sabadello> ivan: I will be there
15:51:41 <leonardr> I will not be at TPAC - have a conflicting standards meeting in Berlin
15:51:45 <markus_sabadello> Pierre-Antoine: I will be there as well
15:52:22 <AndyS> I hope to attend remotely.
15:52:24 <markus_sabadello> phila: We will try very hard to make sure that the people who join remotely will not be in any way at a disadvantage
15:52:38 <markus_sabadello> phila: We will have Dave present his work, and Aidan Hogan will present his.
15:52:42 <leonardr> q+
15:52:50 <ivan> q+
15:52:57 <markus_sabadello> phila: We will have presentations of 2 input documents, I hope to find out the differences between the approaches.
15:53:10 <markus_sabadello> phila: Does someone else in the room have a 3rd or 4th approach?
15:53:14 <yamdan> I will join remotely
15:53:19 <markus_sabadello> phila: Any other questions?
15:53:28 <markus_sabadello> leonardr: I assume the minutes and copies of presentations will be made available
15:53:39 <phila> q?
15:53:41 <markus_sabadello> phila: Yes, will be made available to the group
15:53:43 <phila> ack leonardr
15:53:46 <phila> ack ivan
15:54:12 <markus_sabadello> ivan: Presentation of Dave and Aidan will happen at the TPAC meeting? This might be tough on the VC people.
15:54:25 <dlongley> q+
15:54:30 <markus_sabadello> ivan: This work may be difficult to follow.
15:54:37 <dlongley> q-
15:54:57 <markus_sabadello> phila: The meeting will also be about the relationship of the two groups.
15:55:09 <markus_sabadello> phila: This group is not just a "special task force" of the VC Working Group.
15:55:30 <markus_sabadello> phila: Thank you everybody, I look forward to the work. See some of you in Vancouv
15:55:40 <AndyS> Thank you!
15:56:02 <phila> zakim, end meeting
15:56:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been phila, pchampin, Gregg_Kellogg, leonardr, dlongley, markus_sabadello, ivan, manu, TallTed, dlehn
15:56:04 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:56:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/31-rch-minutes.html Zakim
15:56:07 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, phila; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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15:59:21 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RCH WG -- Next meeting, 2022-09-16, 13:00 - 15:00 America/New_York: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/af7cf83d-4597-4da1-adfc-6958fae1dc25
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