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11:44:18 <Makoto> zakim, start meeting
11:44:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:44:19 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Makoto
11:44:39 <Makoto> meeting:Accessibility Supported Subgroup Meeting - Week 7
11:44:52 <Makoto> rrsagent, make logs world
11:45:27 <Makoto> Agenda+ Documentation Check-in "Accessibility supported in WCAG 2"
11:46:59 <Makoto> Agenda+ Learn from Wilco's experiences
11:47:14 <Makoto> Agenda+ "Pros and Cons" discussion
11:47:37 <Makoto> agenda?
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12:01:32 <Makoto> agenda?
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12:02:00 <Poornima> present+
12:04:07 <Wilco> present+
12:04:17 <Rachael> present+
12:04:18 <Makoto> present+
12:04:36 <bruce_bailey_> bruce_bailey_ has joined #wcag3-supported
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12:04:42 <AWK> +AWK
12:05:09 <bruce_bailey_> present+
12:05:15 <Makoto> zakim, take up next item
12:05:15 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Documentation Check-in "Accessibility supported in WCAG 2" -- taken up [from Makoto]
12:05:17 <bruce_bailey_> scribe: bruce_bailey_
12:05:57 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: Welcome guest Wilco Fiers
12:06:23 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: Ask Andrew to talk about PDF Adobe and Accessibility Supported
12:06:27 <Makoto> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M/edit
12:06:55 <bruce_bailey_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M/edit#heading=h.6zourq95bsgv
12:07:00 <bruce_bailey_> scroll down
12:07:29 <bruce_bailey_> Adobe was interested in demonstrating that PDF was accessibility supported...
12:07:50 <bruce_bailey_> ... also demonstrated how WCAG 2.0 was technology neutral
12:08:21 <bruce_bailey_> ... Adobe had an interest in showing how to make PDFs accessible, conforming to WCAG 2 SC
12:09:03 <bruce_bailey_> ... first early versions of PDF had accessibility issues, but was no longer the case by the time of WCAG 2.0 was published
12:09:33 <bruce_bailey_> So I lead the work with documenting PDF oriented techniques, some for Flash as well.
12:09:54 <bruce_bailey_> ... We also have a mapping showing how the PDF standards supports SC
12:10:23 <bruce_bailey_> ... Obviously not every PDF is accessible, but the same is true for HTML and other technologies.
12:10:59 <bruce_bailey_> ... Further, our own Adobe tools, Reader and Acrobat Professional, support the creation of accessible PDFs
12:11:51 <bruce_bailey_> ... This recent activity has highlighted that the maintenance of these PDF support documents stand to be improved...
12:12:36 <bruce_bailey_> ... early work demonstrated the initial viability of PDFs being accessible.
12:13:01 <bruce_bailey_> ... PDF has not been the focus of AG WG so there is room for some updating those documents...
12:13:23 <bruce_bailey_> Adobe has continued to provide accessibility information and support for our customers.
12:13:54 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto:  Thank you, PDF important in Japanese market as well.
12:14:20 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  Could you brief me on the accessiblity landscape now, I do not work with PDF much.
12:15:11 <bruce_bailey_> AWK:  The focus for techniques was how the PDF specification supported SC, and we added some examples from commercial products.
12:15:42 <bruce_bailey_> ... If I were to look through, I am sure there are some concepts that may have fallen out of favor.
12:16:11 <Rachael> q+ to ask about level of effort vs value perception
12:16:16 <bruce_bailey_> ... We are now emphasizing "liquid" over UA Zoom, but there are not techniques for that.
12:16:55 <bruce_bailey_> AWK clarifies that language of blocks is supported.
12:17:24 <Makoto> ack Rachael
12:17:24 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to ask about level of effort vs value perception
12:17:35 <bruce_bailey_> AWK:  Acrobat might not have a drop down choice for, say Welch, but the PDF spec allows that and language code can be manually added.
12:18:32 <bruce_bailey_> Rachael:  Chair hat off, we seem to be considering three paths.  (1) drop AS, (2) continue as-is, (3) database of AS details.
12:19:17 <bruce_bailey_> AWK:  I think AS database failed not because of PDF but because it is such a heavy lift.  The combinations of browsers and AT...
12:20:19 <bruce_bailey_> PDF oriented version is easier because client reader set is smaller.  The non-Adobe PDF Readers often do not have good accessibility support, so that is easy to document.
12:21:14 <bruce_bailey_> ...I think it would be hard just to robust database just for PDF and HTML.  I get questions from engineers why just tabbing through a document is not enough.
12:21:26 <Wilco> q+
12:21:41 <Makoto> ack Wilco
12:21:46 <bruce_bailey_> ... Someone has to be dedicated to curating, full time essentially.
12:22:32 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  I was affiliated with first database.  ACT has database, and work involves revisiting every rule once per year...
12:23:43 <bruce_bailey_> ... We don't to be a bug repository, but absolutely there are not about accessibility support with most popular current products...
12:24:11 <bruce_bailey_> ,..but the task force is not comfortable listing product names and version.
12:25:06 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  There is an ARIA support group which might be interested in doing some of this work, but ARIA is more standardized than the rest of the HTML / CSS world.
12:25:18 <Makoto> zakim, take up next item
12:25:18 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Learn from Wilco's experiences -- taken up [from Makoto]
12:25:36 <bruce_bailey_> ... The browser developers are always changing their products and technology constantly evolving.
12:26:25 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto:  Use case 6 is Accessibility Supported database, which we have talked about before and touched on just now.
12:26:29 <Makoto> W3C's Accessibility Support Database https://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/
12:26:39 <Makoto> H37_4: Screen readers read the alt on img elements https://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/#/test.html/H37_0000004
12:26:57 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: Join me in welcoming Wilco for talking about some of this work.
12:27:33 <bruce_bailey_> Discuss H37_4 screen reader and alt text.
12:27:48 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: How did you start this work?
12:28:05 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  Should be right from the technique.
12:28:31 <bruce_bailey_> AWK:  Reads from H37 and draws parallel.
12:29:20 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: In Japan, we did a similar thing.  We created test files and report results, testing with PC Talker popular Japanese screen reader.
12:30:03 <bruce_bailey_> ... but still we had trouble determining what behavior was pass / fail.  We struggled to document test procedures and expected results.
12:30:30 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  Most of these comes from the Techniques themselves.
12:30:55 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  An interesting example is the Accessible Name calculation.  We have about 100 test cases.
12:31:10 <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/wiki/AccName_1.1_Testable_Statements
12:31:10 <Makoto> Accessibility Support (a community driven effort)  https://a11ysupport.io/
12:31:27 <Makoto> ACT Rules https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/
12:31:39 <Makoto> an example of documented ACT rule https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/cae760/proposed/
12:31:55 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: Last week at AG WG meeting I mentioned some community driven activities.
12:32:51 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: Could Wilco walk through iframe analysis?
12:33:23 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  ACT Rules is an ad hoc approach.  We write down what we know, and we test a lot.
12:33:57 <bruce_bailey_> ... outside volunteers can add and report on behaviors.  ACT tries to look for edge case and problems.
12:34:39 <bruce_bailey_> ... iframes is good example of how bad and variable things are.  Focus, support for title, varies so much from browser to browser
12:35:38 <bruce_bailey_> ... there is not canonical behavior under ARIA for iframe and the HTML spec leaves it open.  It is up to browser developers.
12:36:12 <bruce_bailey_> AWK:  This underscores the challenge with a database approach.  Authors have to do homework...
12:37:13 <bruce_bailey_> ... some authors do the best they can, some avoid iframe because it is variable, and some authors have no choice but to implement iframes.
12:37:54 <Makoto> In IRC, Racheal wrote three possible path (1) drop AS, (2) continue as-is, (3) database of AS details.
12:37:59 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  This is a good example of a technology that has been around awhile, has gotten lots of attention and discussion, and we still do not have clear solutions.
12:39:04 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: Coming back to Rachael question, three choices, and the third option to develop a database seems like it has significant challenge.
12:39:16 <bruce_bailey_> ... What is main challenge?
12:39:52 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  I think it is financial.  It needs robust staffing.
12:40:07 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: Suppose money is not a problem.
12:40:55 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  Then it becomes a policy decision.  Does W3C only support the most accessible browser?  Only open source projects?
12:41:17 <Rachael> q+
12:41:33 <Makoto> ack Rachael
12:41:50 <bruce_bailey_> ... With unlimited resources, it would still be a problem to dictate which products does things right and which do not?
12:42:36 <bruce_bailey_> Rachael:  Is there a path for opening contributes?  Make it informational.  Open paths for contributors.
12:43:21 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  That has been the approach from the beginning.  The people who can contribute have vested interests.
12:44:24 <bruce_bailey_> AWK:  UA developers are not going to be entirely forthright because they are trying to keep customers happy.  There is not much appeal to public bug reporting.
12:44:59 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco: This is why the ARIA working is getting some tracking, but funding remains a big issue.
12:45:17 <Poornima> q+
12:45:34 <bruce_bailey_> ... The work is also resistant to automation, can't emulate human use of screen reading software.
12:46:13 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto:  JIS has been struggling with this issue.  We have created some test files and tested with variety of AT and browsers...
12:46:42 <bruce_bailey_> ...so I can appreciate the scope and breadth of this work.
12:47:21 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: Could a collect of sample test cases be a good start?
12:47:53 <bruce_bailey_> ... Then our work could focus on testing with UA, and not creating the test files.
12:48:22 <bruce_bailey_> Wilco:  There are a couple initiative creating test cases, so one wants not to duplicate work.
12:48:46 <bruce_bailey_> ... sets of accepted case test files could be feasible.
12:49:19 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto:  We are out of time for pro/cons discussion.  Please all revisit that section of document.
12:49:27 <Rachael> q+
12:49:57 <bruce_bailey_> ... I have merged comments together.  Please check, and add content and comments as you like.
12:50:00 <Makoto> ack Poornima
12:50:33 <bruce_bailey_> Poornima:  I want to speak to keeping accessibility supported.
12:51:05 <bruce_bailey_> ... It is a great deal of work but it is so valueable
12:52:01 <bruce_bailey_> ... examples for accessible supported for each guideline is going to be important.
12:52:32 <bruce_bailey_> ... We have example with 3 for Headings and it is important to keep that model going forward.
12:52:56 <bruce_bailey_> ...It helps with implementation.
12:53:11 <Makoto> ack Rachael
12:53:46 <bruce_bailey_> Rachael:  Our next step is put work into a pull request.  Timing for that is important.
12:54:25 <bruce_bailey_> Makoto: We developed use case and based from that have pros and cons and we can finalize that next week.
12:54:34 <bruce_bailey_> ... We should present something at TPAC.
13:01:30 <Makoto> Makoto: I'm gonna draft this subgroup's pull request later this week. Once I'm done, I'm gonna share it with you all so that you can do the preview for next week's meeting.
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17:30:10 <Rachael> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:30:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/30-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Rachael
17:30:31 <Rachael> rrsagent, make logs world
17:31:15 <Rachael> zakim, end meeting
17:31:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Poornima, Wilco, Rachael, Makoto, AWK, bruce_bailey_
17:31:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:31:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/30-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Zakim
17:31:20 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Rachael; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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