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15:56:09 <Daihei> present+
15:56:16 <zheng_xu> present+
15:56:24 <liisamk> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Conference Day Americas/Europe
15:56:35 <liisamk> Date: 30 August 2022
15:56:43 <ivan> present+
15:56:51 <liisamk> Chair: Liisa McCloy-Kelley
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16:00:32 <wendyreid> present+
16:01:59 <cristina> cristina has joined #pbg
16:02:36 <cristina> present+
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16:04:19 <laurent_> present+
16:05:14 <Ralph> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/digpubsalon
16:05:16 <zheng_xu> wendyreid: We will hold digital publishing salon to gather use cases and ideas about what comes next for digital publishing
16:06:00 <zheng_xu> ... goal is to gather people in digital publishing and expose ideas. Everyone is welcome to attend.
16:06:26 <zheng_xu> ... Will talk about future digital publishing on web
16:06:40 <zheng_xu> liisamk: next introduction about EAA
16:07:05 <zheng_xu> cristina: about EAA there is still discussion ongoing
16:07:20 <zheng_xu> ... even though supposed to be done by june 2022 but still under discussion
16:07:36 <zheng_xu> ... in Italy it's approved by government
16:08:17 <zheng_xu> ... in Italy there will be organization to involve deeply into a11y related web activity
16:08:43 <zheng_xu> ... the other is about penalty
16:08:52 <zheng_xu> ... could be 5000 Euro or so
16:09:18 <zheng_xu> ... in case was requested to compliance but failed to do in Italy
16:09:54 <zheng_xu> ... items in backlist is supposed to applied by 2025
16:10:35 <zheng_xu> ... in France there is discussion that to achieve compliance might introduce cost
16:11:19 <zheng_xu> ... many factors are needed to be considered hope we can have some number around about impact of compliance
16:12:21 <zheng_xu> ... From Danish gov, the commission is asking if a11y is considered as responsible of retailer and it's considered as responsibility of publishers
16:13:18 <zheng_xu> ... About metadata Italy is doing experiment about a11y metadata with some large publisher and projects
16:13:26 <zheng_xu> ... will be sharable next month
16:14:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
16:14:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:15:08 <zheng_xu> ... next week we will send out some update about bookfair
16:15:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:15:44 <zheng_xu> ... Germany is still under discussion about reading system but we will have more information soon
16:15:49 <liisamk> q+
16:15:52 <liisamk> ack Bill
16:16:07 <laurent_> q+
16:16:26 <zheng_xu> Bill_Kasdorf: How about a11y in other countries in EU?
16:17:03 <zheng_xu> cristina: There are also other movement happening right now such as Poland and Danmark. The deadline for EU might be postponed.
16:18:33 <zheng_xu> liisamk: in Italy the fine could be between 5K to 40K Euro is it for a single incident?
16:19:07 <zheng_xu> cristina: this could be for a bank, or other cases depends on the level of the problem.
16:19:31 <liisamk> ack liisamk
16:19:49 <zheng_xu> ... I don't think when you have one book is not accessible then you will be applied to the fine
16:20:24 <zheng_xu> ... the case will be applied to the case systematically not accessible
16:20:57 <zheng_xu> s/the case will be/the fine will likely to be/g
16:21:27 <zheng_xu> liisamk: is there any data being shared cross Europe about which violation is happening and fine?
16:21:47 <wendyreid> q+
16:21:48 <zheng_xu> cristina: it depends on. It is usually happening when there is a complaining.
16:22:17 <Daihei> q+
16:22:19 <zheng_xu> ... and the fine rate could be applied differently according to region
16:22:24 <liisamk> ack laurent
16:23:31 <zheng_xu> laurent_: about situation for France I don't have any legal update yet. But the current work is store and readers are trying to be aligned with a11y meta data
16:23:48 <zheng_xu> ... we are sending out survey and got some result.
16:24:28 <zheng_xu> ... now we have some label for bookstore for vision impairment
16:24:51 <zheng_xu> ... we are still gathering feedback
16:25:19 <zheng_xu> ... about fine we are still asking
16:25:36 <zheng_xu> ... but publisher should be careful about that
16:25:40 <liisamk> ack wendy
16:26:32 <zheng_xu> wendyreid: It seems in Germany it's prompted by consumer complaining which is similar as Canada
16:27:10 <zheng_xu> ... needed to be able to demostrate publisher and stores are improving a11y to avoid fine
16:27:55 <zheng_xu> cristina: Yes in Europe it also depends on each legislation
16:28:48 <zheng_xu> Daihei: How will be monitoring a11y compliance in EU?
16:29:42 <zheng_xu> cristina: the nation level will be done by each country instead of EU. The commission will organize some monitor activity in EU level working with each country
16:30:36 <zheng_xu> ... The commission might intervene but the implementation is left to each country
16:31:08 <zheng_xu> ... there will be a checking of status and problems happen once in a period from the commission
16:33:04 <zheng_xu> liisamk: There is some concern from publisher that it might be easier to retrieve book from public than compliance with a11y.
16:33:52 <zheng_xu> cristina: the whole service needs to be accessible. If there is some reason it is difficult to be accessible then need to explain.
16:34:13 <zheng_xu> ... such as just less sales vs cost of being accessible
16:34:21 <wendyreid> q+
16:34:43 <zheng_xu> ... Also the timeline is not just for digital publisher but also public service wide
16:35:36 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:35:39 <liisamk> ack wendy
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16:37:09 <zheng_xu> wendyreid: Audio books might fail in one perspect regarding transcription. Will transcription be required in EU?
16:37:52 <zheng_xu> cristina: The audiobook itself is not included unless it's speech track inside one ebook.
16:38:40 <zheng_xu> ... as far as I know in EU the audiobook case is still very small
16:42:18 <zheng_xu> liisamk: next agenda item - talk about how we think about a11y in Penguin Random House
16:42:54 <zheng_xu> ... we think all our books should be accessible. But we can not do it all at once.
16:43:44 <zheng_xu> ... we are doing ACE check with existing books. And check / validate about how we can improve
16:44:40 <zheng_xu> ... we wanted to achieve is not need to check a11y for each individual books later but to build a framework
16:45:03 <zheng_xu> ... we are going through a lot of upfront testing.
16:46:17 <zheng_xu> ... we are continue involving a11y improvement
16:47:17 <zheng_xu> ... we are also considering how reading system can support as well as how many quality complains about books
16:47:48 <zheng_xu> ... we need to do things in bite size chunk
16:48:54 <zheng_xu> ... it's hard to put amount on how to make books accessible. We understand that EAA is focusing on reflow book right now.
16:49:06 <cristina> q+
16:51:19 <zheng_xu> ... We are trying to achieve these items at first to make it in a managable segment.
16:53:18 <zheng_xu> ... we have tested a few design practice to make ebook more accessible such as figures with captions, use proper font and other validations
16:54:10 <zheng_xu> ... we are also looking at color contrast as well as color palette as well. Also trying to make book easy to navigate.
16:55:11 <zheng_xu> ... we are also trying to write good best practice to make book accessible
16:56:37 <zheng_xu> ... question is how far we can do. For example indesign does not support a11y well. Also sometimes publisher might create a book in a certain way.
16:57:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:58:53 <zheng_xu> ... we sit down with people and list out all images of the book. We have our survey document but we need a way to share to publishers and vendors.
16:59:52 <liisamk> ack cristina
17:00:31 <zheng_xu> cristina: if any comments on image description which is one of the major issue about digital book accessibility?
17:00:53 <zheng_xu> ... would consider also converting from PDF?
17:01:14 <zheng_xu> ... how about the work in e-commerce website
17:02:05 <zheng_xu> liisamk: we are keeping expanding our discovery. For example more story telling books are using emoji.
17:02:27 <zheng_xu> ... for converting we are converting epub2 to accessible way too
17:02:47 <zheng_xu> ... we don't have much PDF and we don't sell them.
17:03:16 <zheng_xu> ... we are also working on e-commerce website as well as reading system to offer accessible books
17:03:51 <zheng_xu> Adam: How about tutorial books
17:04:36 <zheng_xu> s/tutorial/editorial/g
17:05:25 <zheng_xu> liisamk: we are encouging editorial teams to provide accessible book as well.
17:06:30 <zheng_xu> ... For buy in of editorial team it still needs more steps
17:09:57 <zheng_xu> Bill_Kasdorf: Can you show how you improving a11y such as index to the industry
17:10:28 <zheng_xu> liisamk: we are happy to share
17:11:59 <zheng_xu> Bill_Kasdorf: this might need vendors support as well
17:15:49 <liisamk> scribenick: liisamk
17:16:13 <liisamk> zheng_xu: CG and A11Y task force
17:17:00 <liisamk> ...the task force is working on metadata for how bookstores know that books are accessible,
17:17:22 <liisamk> ...how publishers describe the a11y features,
17:17:42 <liisamk> ...how readers will know what features the books have for them
17:18:18 <liisamk> Our github repo to submit issues to the PCG so that we can discuss and people can refer to
17:18:32 <liisamk> ...a go to place to find more accessible data and best practices
17:18:59 <liisamk> ...link to the use cases: https?//github.com/w3c/publishingcg/
17:19:12 <liisamk> ...there is guidance for how to write use cases
17:20:04 <liisamk> ...maybe you have questions for fixed layout books too
17:20:16 <liisamk> ...how do you make them more accessible?
17:20:34 <liisamk> ...these are very useful inputs for the a11y TF and our meetings every 2 weeks
17:21:21 <liisamk> ...build up the community so that people can ask questions
17:21:34 <liisamk> ...so people can get more answers and it does not need to be very formal
17:21:44 <liisamk> ...anything that can help your real problems
17:21:53 <wendyreid> q+
17:22:05 <liisamk> ...myth is that accessibility is difficult
17:22:16 <liisamk> ack Bill
17:22:55 <liisamk> ...from my experience, we are only targeting one problem for an accessible book or a website
17:23:03 <liisamk> ...WCAG AA is not that difficult
17:23:22 <liisamk> ...mythi #2 is only for visual impairment and it is not
17:24:03 <liisamk> ...it can be really hard to touch and minimal size for a clickable area is important for people
17:24:45 <liisamk> ...myth #3 is about text to speech and whether that is mission accomplished
17:24:58 <liisamk> ...in reality there are way more requirements to make a book accessible
17:25:27 <liisamk> ...the reading order and accuracy of read out items is important
17:25:40 <liisamk> ...reading speed and pitch need to be customizable for screen readers
17:26:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> that's the correct link
17:26:30 <liisamk> wendyreid: the question of best practices
17:27:19 <liisamk> ...the link is http://www.w3.org/2021/09/UX-Guide-metadata-1.0/principles/
17:27:41 <liisamk> ...there is a question of whether there are standards with retailers
17:28:03 <liisamk> ...there really aren't at this point for what the retailers should display
17:28:44 <liisamk> ...task force is testing to see what recommendations could work for the whole industry
17:30:32 <liisamk> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:30:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/30-pbg-minutes.html liisamk
17:30:40 <liisamk> rrsagent, make logs public
17:30:49 <liisamk> zakim, bye
17:30:49 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Daihei, zheng_xu, ivan, wendyreid, cristina, laurent_, Bill_Kasdorf
17:30:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
17:30:53 <liisamk> rrsagent, bye
17:30:53 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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23:53:05 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/30-pbg-irc
23:53:49 <liisamk_> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Conference Day Americas/Asia
23:54:07 <liisamk_> Date: 30/31 August 2022
23:54:15 <liisamk_> Chair: Daihei Shiohama
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00:00:06 <zheng_xu> present+
00:00:40 <shiestyle> present+
00:01:10 <shiestyle> Sorry, I will connect via zoom 30 min later.
00:02:20 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg
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00:05:20 <Murata> Publishing Salon in September
00:05:45 <Murata> Some will attend remotely, while others will, in person.
00:05:53 <jyoshii> jyoshii has joined #pbg
00:06:00 <liisamk_> link to the Publishing Salon information: ttps://www.w3.org/2022/09/digpubsalon
00:06:07 <Murata> In JST Sep 14, 02:00
00:06:09 <jyoshii> PRSENT+
00:06:31 <Murata> Oops, 00:00 JST.
00:06:45 <Murata> present+
00:06:52 <Ralph> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Digital+Publishing+Salon&iso=20220913T08&p1=256&ah=4
00:15:01 <liisamk__> liisamk__ has joined #pbg
00:17:35 <jyoshii> EAA：クりスティーナ理事長の発言　国ごとに検討がされている現状だがイタリアでは2025年までにアクセシビリティ対応がどこまで進んでいるのかモニタリングが行われている。
00:18:27 <jyoshii> 罰則金額はマックス600万円近くになるといった報告がされた、
00:18:43 <jyoshii> イタリアの先行事例は
00:19:40 <jyoshii> 注視する必要がある。既刊分も含んで対応が求められることが明らかになってきている。
00:21:38 <jyoshii> コンテンツそのものの対応は出版社が主な当事者になる。書店はRSでの対応をするだけだから。
00:23:52 <jyoshii> 電子書籍サービス全体を捉えた場合、内容は出版社に帰属するという判断が強まっている。
00:25:39 <MURATA3> MURATA3 has joined #pbg
00:25:45 <MURATA3> +present
00:27:11 <MURATA3> 欧州出版社が送ったオープンレターへの回答は？
00:27:14 <MURATA3> 分からない
00:27:45 <MURATA3> クリスチ０なに塩浜さんが質問する
00:28:55 <MURATA3> Certification organizationは各国では？
00:29:04 <zheng_xu> q+
00:29:17 <MURATA3> これはEPUB Accessibility仕様に従っているかどうか
00:31:01 <MURATA3> Benetech?
00:33:13 <liisamk__> ack zheng
00:34:28 <MURATA3> EAAは、European Accessibility仕様だけに限定しているわけではなく、そこに絞った認証機関の検討はまだない
00:34:55 <MURATA3> Benetechが、認証のサービスを行っている。
00:35:11 <MURATA3> とZhengが指摘
00:35:53 <MURATA3> 村田が、Benetechは認証の仕方を出版社にトレーニングしているだけだという理解
00:38:47 <MURATA3> LisaがPRHのアプローチについて資料を用いて説明
00:40:18 <MURATA3> CertificationについてはRPHではいまのところ行っていない
00:42:18 <MURATA3> 新刊での対応から始め、既存出版物についても対応していく
00:44:41 <MURATA3> 既存のものについては、EPUB2からEPUB3に変換したうえでアクセシブルにする。品質を向上させる。
00:45:17 <MURATA3> OCRの品質の悪さなど、初期にあった問題に対応する。
00:45:57 <MURATA3> 再変換も考慮する（マイナーアップデートだけではない）
00:49:05 <MURATA3> 既存のものは簡単なものから複雑なものへ
00:49:48 <MURATA3> 対応は社内、社外、プログラムによる自動化、手作業などいろいろありえる
00:50:58 <MURATA3> MM: You care everything!
00:52:22 <MURATA3> 新刊は5000 books a year. 50はアクセシブルに
00:53:27 <MURATA3> ハイプロファイルなものを優先する。
00:57:12 <MURATA3> MM: 普通に作ると注は、盲人には読みに行くと戻ってこられないものになります。
00:59:02 <MURATA3> Zhengが日本語で説明
01:04:44 <liisamk__> link to PCG github repo: https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg
01:09:08 <MURATA3> MMコメント: Zhengは、アクセシビリティは視覚障害者のためだけでなく、読み上げがすべてなわけでもないという重要な指摘を行っています。日本では誤解がとてもとても多い。
01:09:45 <MURATA3> ところで
01:10:00 <MURATA3> きょうのミーティングは何時までですか？
01:10:45 <MURATA3> When will we close this meeting?
01:11:13 <shiestyle> I think it will be until 10:30 JST.
01:14:38 <MURATA3> MMコメント: 国会図書館の最近の調査が、日本において必要なアクセシビリティ機能について包括的な調査をしています。
01:18:12 <MURATA3> 鎌田さんの質問: 意味のある
01:18:23 <MURATA3> alt textとは何で、ないalt textとは何か？
01:20:14 <MURATA3> Lisa: alt textは大変だが、圧倒されないように、ちゃんと分類して対処する必要がある。
01:20:48 <MURATA3> チャートなどは難しい。ガイドラインがあれば、それを参考にする。
01:21:22 <MURATA3> この件についての85ページのガイドラインが社内にある。
01:22:07 <MURATA3> あまりに大変なものは後回しにする
01:25:17 <MURATA3> 木達さんが、この件についてのW3Cのガイドラインがあることを指摘。Lisaが、それを参考にはしているが、書籍には当てはまらない部分もある。
01:28:05 <MURATA3> MM: 障害者権利条約対日審査が情報アクセシビリティについても含んでいます。二年後には、またあります。
01:29:46 <MURATA3> MM: 二年後にはジュネーブで、日本の電子書籍アクセシビリティについても審査されるでしょう。
01:30:28 <MURATA3> MM: EPUB Accessibilty 1.1には、1.0ですぐ始めるべきと書かれています。
01:30:53 <MURATA3> MM: Aceの日本語化はすでに行われています。
01:33:10 <MURATA3> MM: JDCは、日本語アクセシビリティメタデータの登録をW3Cで始めます。皆さんのご意見は歓迎します。
01:34:00 <liisamk__> rrsagent, draft minutes
01:34:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/30-pbg-minutes.html liisamk__
01:34:07 <liisamk__> rrsagent, make logs public
01:34:11 <liisamk__> zakim, bye
01:34:11 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been zheng_xu, shiestyle, Murata, present
01:34:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
01:34:16 <liisamk__> rrsagent, bye
01:34:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items