13:18:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
13:18:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/26-epub-irc
13:18:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:18:21 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
13:18:32 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2022-08-26: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2022Aug/0012.html
13:18:33 <ivan> Chair: dauwhe
13:18:33 <ivan> Date: 2022-08-26
13:18:33 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2022Aug/0012.html
13:18:33 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telco
13:18:33 <ivan> Regrets+ toshiakikoike
13:55:48 <ivan> present+
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13:59:45 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
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14:00:19 <ivan> present+ avneesh
14:00:19 <ivan> present+ matthew
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14:00:31 <ivan> present+ wendy
14:00:36 <CharlesL> present+
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14:01:39 <ivan> present+ dauwhe
14:01:53 <wendyreid> present+
14:01:59 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:02:16 <dauwhe> present+
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14:02:58 <MattChan> scribe+
14:03:47 <ivan> regrets+ mattg
14:03:55 <ivan> present+ jf
14:04:13 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2397
14:04:16 <MattChan> TOPIC: Deprecate embedded audio or video as targets for Media Overlay <text> references
14:04:32 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2397
14:04:40 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2402
14:05:03 <ivan> -> Description of the issue https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2402#issue-1340871554
14:05:09 <ivan> github-bot, bye
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14:06:00 <JF> agenda?
14:06:01 <MattChan> ivan: on a high level, what you can do with MO is associate a piece of time-stamped audio with a piece of text
14:06:09 <MattChan> ... it is used in a bunch of a11y situations
14:06:14 <MattChan> ... it is pretty well specified
14:06:17 <JF> Present+
14:06:25 <MattChan> ... based on the tests I have made so far it is well implemented too
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14:06:59 <MattChan> ... however the specifications also try to allow association of an audio clip with a video (or several videos)
14:07:15 <MattChan> ... now you have two time related media side-by-side
14:07:42 <MattChan> ... for that to work, the spec needs to define what is happening, considering that videos themselves often have UI controls themselves
14:07:47 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:08:02 <MattChan> ... the spec tries to make some sense of this use-case, but this is really underspecified
14:08:19 <MattChan> ... also, even for the cases which are relatively clear, we haven't found any implementations
14:08:33 <MattChan> ... so we have a complicated case, underspecified in spec, and not implemented
14:08:50 <MattChan> ... in side conversation with avneesh, we did not find any important proper use case in a11y area
14:09:37 <MattChan> ... the tests I created were trying to take a video and add a piece of background audio. But this is an artificial use case, as adding background audio to a video can be done much more easily in editing software rather than via MO
14:09:59 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:10:02 <MattChan> ... so this lead to suggestion that we should just deprecate this type of video/audio MO from spec
14:10:25 <MattChan> ... Marisa, mgarrish, and I opened #2397 to discuss
14:10:40 <MattChan> ... based on this Marisa created PR #2402
14:11:05 <MattChan> ... but we wanted to discuss with WG first
14:11:33 <MattChan> dauwhe: the fact that we don't have implementations of this weighs heavily to me
14:11:48 <MattChan> ... reluctant to keep this in the spec for that reason
14:11:54 <JF> is anyone aware of popcorn.js?
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14:12:19 <GeorgeK> q?
14:12:21 <MattChan> ivan: is there any use-cases for this in the a11y area which requires this?
14:12:24 <GeorgeK> q+
14:12:37 <wendyreid> ack George
14:12:39 <MattChan> ... MO has been included in the spec primarily for a11y reasons, although it is useful for other things
14:13:05 <MattChan> george: i agree generally. Audio descriptions for the blind is implemented in TV as a second audio channel that can be turned on
14:13:05 <JF> Q+
14:13:25 <MattChan> ... don't know the technology behind it (mixer behind the scenes that combines audio channels?)
14:13:43 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:13:44 <MattChan> ... don't know that we can break new ground here by adding that feature, but its something people would want
14:13:59 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:14:06 <wendyreid> ack JF
14:14:07 <MattChan> ... what happens with descriptive audio is that the on-screen action is described for the blind person
14:14:20 <JF> http://ncamftp.wgbh.org/rd/hgp/hgp.html
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14:15:06 <MattChan> JF: there is a package called popcorn.js. Work done a while back by WGBH, where they were using this js library to use time-stamp markers to activate functions
14:15:18 <ivan> q+
14:15:31 <MattChan> ... this is a demonstrated use-case, but i'm not aware of anyone who has taken this and run with it
14:15:44 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:15:45 <MattChan> ... not sure that we need this in our spec, as long as we're not frustrating the use of it in epub
14:16:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:16:17 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: this is removal of 9.3.2 from the RS spec. No one is blocking the creation of such MO files
14:17:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:17:02 <dauwhe> q?
14:17:03 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:17:11 <MattChan> ... say you have a video going on, and you need description for it, MO doesn't seem like a good solution for this
14:17:31 <MattChan> ivan: the largest part of the MO concentrates on associating audio track with text
14:17:36 <MattChan> ... this is not being touched
14:18:03 <MattChan> ... the section that is affected is "embedded-media overlays", i.e. where HTML includes a video track
14:18:29 <MattChan> ... to what John said, if there are js libraries that can do things in a website, they can do it in an epub as well. No problem.
14:18:48 <JF> watch the example at: http://ncamftp.wgbh.org/rd/hgp/hgp.html
14:19:08 <MattChan> ... what you described is a nice tool that can be used to get additional feature while a video is running. This can work in an epub as well
14:19:18 <ivan> present+ brady
14:19:32 <wendyreid> q+
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14:19:45 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:19:47 <dauwhe> ack w
14:19:55 <duga> present+
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14:20:10 <MattChan> wendyreid: agreed. I think we're just removing something that is creating confusion/opening ourselves up to adding another unimplemented feature
14:20:18 <MattChan> ... i haven't seen this in an epub or in any RS
14:20:28 <MattChan> ... description of video of visually impaired is not done via MO
14:20:43 <JF> More info about accessible media requirements: https://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/
14:20:53 <MattChan> ... RS would have to implement accessible media-player or epub would have to come with one, larger problem
14:21:01 <dauwhe> q?
14:21:38 <MattChan> ivan: can we pass a resolution that once editors are ready, that we can merge PR #2402?
14:22:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:22:06 <wendyreid> Proposed: Once the edits are finalized, merge PR 2402 and close issue 2397
14:22:16 <MattChan> +1
14:22:16 <wendyreid> +1
14:22:18 <dauwhe> +1
14:22:19 <GeorgeK> +1
14:22:19 <ivan> +1
14:22:19 <duga> +1
14:22:19 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:22:22 <AvneeshSingh> +1
14:22:22 <JF> +1
14:22:23 <CharlesL> +1
14:22:26 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Once the edits are finalized, merge PR 2402 and close issue 2397
14:22:43 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2400
14:22:57 <MattChan> TOPIC: Changes to accessibility conformance identifiers and accessibilitySummary
14:23:01 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2401
14:23:02 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2401
14:23:28 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: the main issue here is how to handle accessibilitySummary
14:23:40 <MattChan> ... should it be mandatory, or only recommended?
14:23:43 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2399
14:23:58 <MattChan> ... we settled on recommended, and highlight the cases where you should definitely provide this data
14:24:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:24:17 <MattChan> ... this also requires a change in something else. People were using this field to explain a11y conformance
14:24:19 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2398
14:24:35 <MattChan> ... mgarrish suggested that we should make the conformance field more human-friendly
14:24:39 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:24:43 <CharlesL> q+
14:25:03 <MattChan> ... which means you don't need to explain this in accessibilitySummary
14:25:06 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:25:08 <dauwhe> ak ch
14:25:09 <MattChan> ... so these are the two PRs
14:25:40 <MattChan> CharlesL: agreed. In addition, mgarrish also clarified that there should only be one accessibilitySummary, in the language of the epub
14:25:43 <JF> Q+
14:26:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:26:29 <MattChan> ... the accessibilitySummary is now recommended. It should include anything that is not captured in the other (machine readable) meta fields
14:26:40 <MattChan> ... not duplication
14:26:58 <MattChan> ... we will rewrite a11y best practices around how to display epub metadata to users
14:27:37 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:27:50 <wendyreid> ack JF
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14:28:02 <MattChan> George: the EUAA will require the presentation of a11y data, so we feel that if the other fields that are currently machine readable can be communicated to users via best practices, then accessibilitySummary can just be for anything else
14:28:39 <MattChan> JF: what happens if the epub is in more than one language? Then what lang should accessibilitySummary be if there should only be one? Multiple languages in one?
14:29:33 <MattChan> George: there's always a base language for the publication, so the accessibilitySummary would use that language.
14:30:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:30:19 <ivan> q+
14:30:33 <MattChan> JF: the accessibilitySummary, as explained, is intended to be human readable. So screen readers should be able to read it. I should be able to use tools like language tagging, pronunciation markup, etc.
14:30:49 <MattChan> ... so maybe that human readable summary should support multiple langugages
14:30:59 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:31:27 <MattChan> George: the name summary is inaccurate. It's not a summary of the whole document. It uses the term summary as a holdover from Schema.org
14:31:56 <MattChan> ... we would propose to reference the Schema.org description in the a11y best practices guide, to make this clear
14:31:56 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:32:49 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: a lot of the details which have been shared about a11y guidelines have been working in Publishing CG
14:32:50 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:33:40 <MattChan> ivan: i'm looking at preview of the spec where description of accessibilitySummary does not make explicit reference to languages
14:34:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:34:04 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/94
14:34:07 <MattChan> ... also accessibilitySummary is part of the package document, so you can repeat it in a different language?
14:34:28 <MattChan> wendyreid: there's a note in the PR about not repeating the accessibilitySummary
14:34:45 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:34:52 <MattChan> ... "do not repeat this property to declare translations..."
14:35:07 <MattChan> ... since there is no hierarchy, the RS might pick the wrong language
14:35:23 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:35:31 <MattChan> ivan: it's an xml document, so adding a language is technically possible
14:36:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:36:06 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: we've been discussing accessibiltySummary for a couple months now, JF has made good points but we are in CR now. We will defer these things to the next version rather than expanding our work on this currently
14:36:37 <MattChan> wendyreid: any other questions re. accessibilitySummary? Changes to conformance identifiers?
14:37:25 <wendyreid> Proposed: Merge PRs 2400 and 2401
14:37:31 <ivan> +1
14:37:31 <CharlesL> +1
14:37:31 <wendyreid> +1
14:37:32 <MattChan> +1
14:37:33 <AvneeshSingh> +1
14:37:34 <duga> +1
14:37:35 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:37:36 <dauwhe> +1
14:37:47 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Merge PRs 2400 and 2401
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14:38:12 <MattChan> TOPIC: EPUBCheck and EPUB Accessibility 1.1
14:38:37 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:38:44 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:38:45 <MattChan> wendyreid: shiestyle asked whether epubcheck would throw errors when epub accessibility is missing
14:38:55 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: it don't think so, that is what ACE is for
14:39:26 <MattChan> dauwhe: there is also the matter of that making lots of existing epubs invalid
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14:40:14 <dauwhe> q?
14:40:30 <MattChan> TOPIC: AOB?
14:40:45 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: we have a history of meeting with APA during TPAC
14:40:57 <MattChan> ... they contacted us
14:40:58 <AvneeshSingh> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2022#Publishing
14:41:23 <MattChan> ... here is the link to meeting, it is the 15th in the morning
14:41:31 <MattChan> ... it is a mutual update meeting
14:41:51 <MattChan> ... agenda items available via the link
14:42:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:42:10 <MattChan> ... discussion of whether we need another horizontal review of a11y for epub 3.3
14:42:24 <MattChan> ... probably not though
14:42:46 <MattChan> ivan: similarly with i18n, nothing major has happened recently
14:42:52 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:43:18 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: mgarrish suggested that maybe APA can just review our changelog to satisfy themselves that nothing major has happened that would require review
14:44:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:44:06 <MattChan> wendyreid: okay, thanks everyone who has replied so far about if you are attending. It helps with planning.
14:44:24 <MattChan> George: is there another place where we are supposed to be identifying where we will show up?
14:44:30 <MattChan> wendyreid: no, just on the registration form
14:44:48 <MattChan> ... i was asking because i could see who had registered, just not whether they registered for in person or virtual
14:45:03 <MattChan> ivan: the list i provided was for those who will be present in person
14:45:09 <MattChan> duga: will the chairs be there?
14:45:12 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes
14:46:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:46:49 <MattChan> wendyreid: if you are attending in person, please review stuff sent by the events team in regards to safety precautions
14:48:00 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:50:42 <MattChan> wendyreid: i will be sending TPAC agendas out today
14:50:47 <MattChan> ... see you all very soon!
14:50:54 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:50:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/26-epub-minutes.html ivan
14:51:05 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
14:51:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, MasakazuKitahara, avneesh, matthew, wendy, CharlesL, dauwhe, wendyreid, AvneeshSingh, jf, brady, duga
14:51:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:51:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/26-epub-minutes.html Zakim
14:51:10 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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14:51:34 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:51:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items