07:07:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
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07:07:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
07:07:26 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
07:07:26 <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2022
07:08:10 <lisa> agenda+ Updates, subgroup reviews,  task requests and actions. see https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#
07:08:15 <lisa> agenda?
07:08:23 <lisa> clear agenda
07:08:27 <lisa> agenda+ Updates, subgroup reviews,  task requests and actions. see https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#
07:09:18 <lisa> agenda+ Updates from AG (WCAG)
07:23:22 <lisa> agenda+ TPAC: which sub groups want time ? see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PZkjDtPbZHlcFxmmbTA6e-Sp_qU6_9Z8Ux85PINe5QU/edit#
07:23:45 <lisa> agenda+ TPAC: what do we need to prepair ? see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PZkjDtPbZHlcFxmmbTA6e-Sp_qU6_9Z8Ux85PINe5QU/edit#
07:41:06 <lisa> agenda+ (iftime) How to organize research for each pattern - see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U3gdQesJHTmLZ2H62_23olZD3jZ-5SEMBZxhb-RsQsY/edit?usp=sharing
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08:33:23 <lisa> scribe+  Jennie, lisa, rain
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13:36:13 <Lisa> agenda?
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13:57:11 <Jennie> present+
13:57:43 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
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13:59:41 <ShawnT> present+
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14:00:53 <Rain> present+
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14:02:04 <Rachael> present+
14:02:15 <EA> Present+
14:02:34 <Jennie> Lisa: Kiki - please introduce yourself
14:03:11 <Jennie> Kiki: I work for Google as a UX research. My background is Occupational Therapy
14:03:31 <Jennie> Lisa: Welcome
14:03:37 <Roy> Roy has joined #coga
14:03:38 <Lisa> zakim, next item
14:03:38 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Updates, subgroup reviews,  task requests and actions. see https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit# -- taken up [from
14:03:41 <Zakim> ... lisa]
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14:04:12 <Kiki> present+
14:05:19 <Jennie> Lisa: We are reviewing the actions page
14:05:39 <Jennie> ...Today we will review the subgroup information
14:05:58 <Jennie> ...Mental Health group: we need to be finishing the lit review in the next week or 2
14:06:11 <EA> Rashmi sent email saying 'Regrets'
14:06:18 <Jennie> ...If you have items on your to-dos regarding this group for the lit review, please review them
14:06:26 <Jennie> ...If you need help, please reach out to Rashmi and myself
14:06:30 <Jennie> ...Structure subgroup
14:06:38 <Jennie> Rain: We are meeting as a subgroup after this call.
14:06:52 <Jennie> ...I have prepared a deck for the meeting with the responses to the survey.
14:07:02 <Jennie> ...If you are interested in those, please join the meeting
14:07:10 <Jennie> ...We only have 59 responses
14:07:20 <Jennie> ...We are keeping the meeting open until September 15
14:07:27 <Jennie> ...Please continue to share the survey
14:07:36 <Jennie> ...Get in touch with me if you have questions on how to promote it
14:07:55 <Jennie> ...Especially for those with contacts throughout the world
14:08:12 <Jennie> Lisa: Do you want time at TPAC?
14:08:27 <Jennie> Rain: I think a 2 hour working session would be good
14:08:40 <Jennie> ...And including people that aren't able to attend TPAC - from the community group?
14:09:08 <Jennie> Lisa: Clear Language is an agenda item on itself
14:09:19 <Jennie> Julie: Welcome Kiki!
14:09:24 <Jennie> ...We met on August 4th
14:09:33 <Jennie> ...The plans to get things done by the end of August will not happen
14:09:43 <Jennie> ...We really focused on just one piece of clear language - use common words
14:09:55 <Jennie> ...Part of the discussion was how we can make it a rigorous and flexible standard
14:10:13 <Jennie> ...Example: allow a site to make available a list of subject matter vocabulary they consider to be familiar to their audience
14:10:18 <Jennie> ...Jeanne Spellman was on the call
14:10:40 <Jennie> ...We discussed can we make it so the site declares: this is our subject matter vocabulary, these are our core words
14:11:02 <Jennie> ...The question we had: if we require those 2 inputs, could it be conventional testing, or just having these inputs makes it a procedural test?
14:11:12 <Jennie> ...The main thing: find a way to be rigorous but flexible
14:11:24 <Jennie> ...I am working on a way to map out how the 2 inputs could be used for this testing
14:11:25 <Rachael> q+
14:11:44 <Jennie> ...And, for the scoring system, reward a site for picking a small number of most common words
14:12:02 <Jennie> ...The idea is to build in flexibility to promote meeting the standard
14:12:19 <Jennie> ...Not just, have you trained your staff on plain language
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14:12:32 <Jennie> ...More about: have you decided what are common words for your site
14:12:40 <Jennie> ...I'm hoping we can discuss on August 30
14:12:43 <Jennie> q?
14:12:57 <Lisa> ack next
14:13:04 <Lisa> ack next
14:13:27 <Jennie> Lisa: Let's shelve our questions for the TPAC section
14:13:59 <Jennie> ...I thought we were going to do an example of a protocol test, and one that is more of a typical type of test. Is that going to be discussed?
14:14:19 <Jennie> Julie: I had hoped that we could do the sorting exercise, put everything into the 2 testing categories
14:14:36 <Jennie> ...We got stuck on the "use common words" so I figured why don't we try to build that one out
14:14:46 <Jennie> ...It is perhaps new territory, the idea of using inputs
14:15:05 <Jennie> ...I am not sure if Silver will think of this as procedural, or not...
14:15:28 <Jennie> Lisa: Julie, we had said, we were going to have examples of the unit and procedural testing
14:15:35 <Jennie> ...Will we have those 2 drafts?
14:15:41 <Jennie> ...I think we need that for the next step.
14:15:44 <Rachael> q+
14:15:55 <Jennie> ...Incremental - let's make an example of a unit test
14:16:01 <Jennie> ...Do you think we will get there?
14:16:09 <Jennie> Julie: I think the procedural test is the harder one to do
14:16:18 <Rain> q+
14:16:18 <Jennie> ...I thought the more conventional test is easier
14:16:29 <Jennie> ...Example: acronyms
14:16:38 <Lisa> ack next
14:16:42 <Jennie> Rachael: We really do need a conditional test
14:16:48 <Jennie> ...The procedural test is great as an example
14:16:57 <Jennie> ...We really need conditional because it is the middle group
14:17:03 <Jennie> ...Example: in this language, this should apply
14:17:17 <Jennie> ...If you aren't going to do it by TPAC, I may need to put a subgroup together
14:17:23 <Jennie> Lisa: OK, this is critical
14:17:32 <Lisa> ack next
14:17:35 <Jennie> Julie: Good to know. We can switch gears and make this a top priority
14:17:38 <Rachael> Thank you!
14:17:40 <Jennie> Lisa: Thank you
14:17:56 <Jennie> Rain: On the Silver subgroup defining test types and terminology
14:18:11 <Jennie> ...We have identified a number of questions
14:18:21 <Jennie> ...We are presenting on that tomorrow at the Silver meeting, if anyone wants to join
14:18:29 <Jennie> ...I will share the drafts with Julie so you know what those are
14:18:40 <Jennie> ...I have been attempting to write these types of tests
14:18:47 <Jennie> ...You might be able to lift some of those
14:18:59 <Jennie> Lisa: Rain, can you send that to the task force as well?
14:19:01 <Jennie> Rain: Yes
14:19:07 <julierawe> Rain = fantastic!!!!
14:19:10 <Jennie> Lisa: Test plan strategy
14:19:32 <Jennie> Shawn: Our next step is to meet with Julie to speak about the testing they are doing in Plain Language
14:19:39 <Jennie> ...then we will go more from there
14:19:52 <Jennie> Lisa: Thank you
14:20:04 <Jennie> ...Next is the Research Plan and Strategy - and we are meeting after this call
14:20:17 <Jennie> ...We are doing well. We have a draft of a survey
14:20:21 <Jennie> ...People have looked at
14:20:36 <Rain> q+ to say that we will probably want to keep the groups together and do half and half
14:20:40 <Jennie> ...We can discuss any comments today
14:20:57 <Jennie> ...There was an interesting comment from EA to put it through an ethical community, then do it as a research project
14:21:06 <Jennie> ...Roy, does the W3C have an ethics committee?
14:21:13 <Rachael> q+
14:21:27 <Rachael> q-
14:21:28 <Jennie> ...Roy, interrupt when you have your audio
14:21:42 <Jennie> ...We also have a draft outline for our research plan, based on the face to face meeting
14:21:52 <Jennie> ...Group members can review and add comments
14:21:55 <Lisa> ack next
14:21:55 <Jennie> ...It is a good starting point
14:21:56 <Zakim> Rain, you wanted to say that we will probably want to keep the groups together and do half and half
14:22:11 <Jennie> Rain: I think we should keep both subgroups together because there is overlap
14:22:39 <Lisa> ack next
14:22:47 <Jennie> Jennie: Images subgroup is meeting tomorrow morning (Central time)
14:22:54 <Jennie> Lisa: Regarding our timeline
14:23:04 <Jennie> ...We are wanting to get feedback from different communities
14:23:14 <Jennie> ...Is the community group doing that or do we need to reach out a bit more?
14:23:27 <Jennie> Rain: Are you referring to the research survey for getting feedback?
14:23:39 <Jennie> Lisa: Just on the Content Usable, do we have all the use cases?
14:23:51 <Jennie> Rain: Members of the community group are doing outreach within their communities
14:24:04 <Jennie> ...I think the next steps are to put together some reports to bring that back to us
14:24:07 <Jennie> Lisa: Great.
14:24:13 <Jennie> ...We have 2 new requests
14:24:19 <Jennie> ...One is high priority
14:24:26 <Jennie> ...They would like our feedback over the next month
14:24:36 <Jennie> ...They are making a User Need thing on collaborative tools
14:24:38 <Lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/research-questions/wiki/Collaboration_Tool_Accessibility
14:24:41 <Jennie> ...I have put the link here
14:25:26 <Jennie> ...They will be working with Github
14:25:35 <Jennie> ...They have some actions going on around this
14:25:39 <Jennie> ...They want our feedback
14:25:46 <Jennie> ...So our voices and opinions are included
14:25:53 <Jennie> ...We did things like this
14:26:03 <Jennie> ...We made a Google doc - a review of accessible meetings
14:26:09 <Jennie> ...One on inclusive groups
14:26:22 <Jennie> ...We also had some slides from TPAC on inclusive meetings
14:26:28 <Jennie> ...And we had some feedback from the W3C
14:26:37 <Jennie> ...I put all of our previous work together
14:26:46 <Jennie> ...They don't want to look at that - that's for our reference
14:26:51 <Jennie> ...They want individual issues
14:27:03 <Jennie> ...I made a document called Coga Review of Accessible Meetings
14:27:29 <Jennie> ...We can add as many issues here as we want, and I can either add them into Github, or just give them the whole list
14:27:42 <Jennie> ...I think this will help us and them track to be sure we have understood each other
14:27:59 <Jennie> ...When people actually give suggested working, it can be really helpful
14:28:26 <Jennie> ...Things like: could you add (this technique) to (this thing)
14:28:40 <Jennie> ...We may not manage that with each one
14:28:47 <Jennie> ...But definitely separate out each issue
14:29:04 <Jennie> ...And when possible, be specific about which wording, which section, and give a concrete suggestion
14:29:14 <Jennie> ...Is anyone interested in reviewing their document?
14:29:20 <Jennie> q+
14:29:32 <Lisa> ack next
14:30:39 <Jennie> Jennie: I can review by the 3rd week of September
14:30:43 <Jennie> Lisa: OK
14:30:58 <Jennie> ...Does anyone else want to take a look at it?
14:31:31 <kirkwood> would def take a look… link to add comments?
14:31:47 <Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14Ha6bbgDMMo_zLLWa3yz88mkwL2Dz7eczWXQTB6mcPc/edit#heading=h.lq5z1u5iwsun
14:31:56 <kirkwood> perfect
14:32:01 <Jennie> Lisa: I have put the issues at the top
14:32:06 <Jennie> ...Their text is underneath
14:32:12 <Jennie> ...Even if you just add comments, that would be fine
14:32:22 <ShawnT> I would like to ask my team to look into it, we are working on a large collaborative project
14:32:46 <Jennie> Lisa: next from APA is verifiable credentials
14:32:59 <Jennie> ...This is use cases for verifiable credentials
14:33:14 <Jennie> ...This can be more than just saying "I am a person"
14:33:38 <Jennie> ...We have done similar stuff, like a paper on metadata
14:33:46 <Jennie> ...We could open a document - a similar kind of thing
14:33:51 <Jennie> ...We don't have as tight a schedule
14:34:06 <Lisa> ack next
14:34:11 <Jennie> ...Is anyone interested in doing a review of that?
14:34:22 <Jennie> ...We can go over it next week as well
14:34:39 <Jennie> ...Rain, have you managed to go through our issues on remote meetings
14:34:50 <Jennie> Rain: I am about half way through and hope to have this next week
14:35:08 <Jennie> Lisa: Let's go through the individual action items
14:35:29 <Lisa> ack next
14:35:57 <Jennie> Jennie: Michael Cooper has sent an email beginning to set up the guardianship language meeting
14:36:31 <Jennie> Lisa: I sent John K an email about researches as part of the literary review
14:36:39 <Jennie> ...to do the searches we discussed
14:36:46 <Jennie> John K: I see them.
14:37:52 <Lisa> ack next
14:38:03 <Jennie> Julie: Kevin from EO have been accepting some of our github issues regarding how people use the web
14:38:16 <Jennie> ...One is that they don't understand why we can't define learning or cognitive disabilities
14:38:23 <Jennie> ...One person brought up that they are defined in the DSM
14:38:41 <Jennie> Lisa: KrisAnne - should we meet with EO at TPAC?
14:38:50 <Jennie> KrisAnne: I am not sure how many members will be going to TPAC
14:38:57 <Jennie> ...Kevin is on vacation
14:39:15 <Jennie> ...Depending on who is going to be at TPAC
14:39:33 <Jennie> Julie: The github issues Kevin is creating and his colleague has been commenting on
14:39:43 <Jennie> ...I think it would be helpful if we review, and suggest wording
14:39:53 <Jennie> ...I am not sure that a meeting would get more done than a working session
14:39:57 <Jennie> KrisAnne: I agree
14:40:11 <Jennie> ...Right now EO is working on videos
14:40:25 <Jennie> ...We are trying to get the videos done by the end of the year, and some hinges on the work with the personas
14:40:41 <Jennie> ...I know that Kevin is trying to get them into a more polished state
14:40:48 <julierawe> q+
14:40:55 <Jennie> ...The scripts need to be created, then looked through
14:41:05 <Jennie> ...This is making this more time sensitive
14:41:07 <Lisa> agenda?
14:41:13 <Jennie> ...I agree with Julie's suggestion of a working session
14:41:17 <Jennie> ...is the best bet
14:41:44 <Jennie> Julie: It sounds like we should make our feedback on the personas the top priorities, and less on the other page
14:41:54 <Jennie> KrisAnne: There are 3 sets of videos
14:42:05 <Jennie> ...The cognitive disabilities page may get its own video as well
14:42:23 <Jennie> ...I am not sure how to prioritize
14:42:31 <Jennie> Lisa: It seems like we need to ask them
14:42:43 <Jennie> ...Rachael do you have an AG update?
14:42:50 <Jennie> Rachael: yes, I can keep it quick
14:42:57 <Jennie> Lisa: Le - you have papers to review for mental health
14:43:05 <Lisa> zakim, next item
14:43:05 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lisa
14:43:12 <Lisa> ack next
14:43:43 <Jennie> Rachael: 1. We are aiming to discuss the conformance model, and create a template at TPAC
14:43:56 <Jennie> ...We will remind people of the shared architecture, shared vocabulary for conversations
14:44:05 <Jennie> ...2. We are trying to get WCAG 2.2 out the door
14:44:13 <Jennie> ...There is a 2nd round of the CFC in the next day or so
14:44:22 <Jennie> ...I did hear concerns about all the email conversation going on
14:44:31 <Jennie> ...When the CFC come out you can see a single copy
14:44:42 <Jennie> ...Directly reach out to me if you have questions
14:44:49 <Jennie> ...We need to finish in the next 2 days
14:45:05 <Jennie> Lisa: I would really do better with an editor's draft
14:45:13 <Jennie> Rachael: I tried to send a simple version
14:45:20 <Jennie> ...But there has been a lot of conversation since then
14:45:31 <Lisa> zakim, next item
14:45:31 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Updates from AG (WCAG) -- taken up [from lisa]
14:45:44 <Lisa> close item 2
14:46:08 <Jennie> Lisa: I look at everyone else's agendas and tried to put them together into ours
14:46:14 <Jennie> ...We have a meeting with APA 1st thing in the morning
14:46:20 <Rachael> For reference only, AG's schedule is at https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2022#AG_WG_Meeting_at_TPAC_2022
14:46:21 <Jennie> ...Part of this will be the functional needs
14:46:29 <Jennie> ...There is also CEPC
14:46:38 <Jennie> Rachael: Code of ethics and professional conduct
14:46:46 <Jennie> Lisa: OK we have the AG scoring
14:47:02 <Rachael> q+
14:47:09 <Jennie> ...I was hoping we would have a bit of time at TPAC to get the examples discussed for Julie's group before the scoring conversation, but that is not going to happen
14:47:20 <Jennie> ...On September 12th we will have that conversation
14:47:33 <Jennie> ...I think we need a conversation mid week to have an example of each kind of test
14:47:40 <Jennie> ...before TPAC - does that make sense?
14:47:42 <Jennie> Julie: Yes
14:47:52 <Jennie> ...Midweek prior to September 12th?
14:47:59 <Jennie> Lisa: Yes. Like Monday or Wednesday
14:48:17 <Jennie> ...Otherwise we will miss TPAC and that would be a shame
14:48:39 <Jennie> ...Then I had after lunch building language based on the discussion with AG
14:48:46 <Jennie> ...Does that sound ok?
14:48:46 <Lisa> ack next
14:49:13 <Jennie> Rachael: I would recommend changing scoring to test types to reduce confusion
14:49:14 <Jennie> Lisa: OK
14:49:18 <julierawe> q+
14:49:36 <Jennie> ...They will be examples of where we can tease out what the issues are
14:49:40 <Jennie> q?
14:50:04 <Jennie> Rachael: I think that will be useful. The subgroup Rain is in will talk about their recommendations for testing, then everyone will talk about the examples each group has
14:50:08 <Lisa> ack next
14:50:19 <Jennie> ...Then we will talk about the requirements for WCAG 3 - are we working in a useful direction
14:50:33 <Jennie> Julie: We have the meeting for September 1, then I will schedule a call the week following
14:51:01 <Jennie> Rachael: Your time blocks are not matching up with mine - at some point that needs to be updated
14:51:05 <Jennie> Lisa: OK
14:51:16 <Jennie> ...Tuesday: we haven't decided what we wanted in
14:51:49 <Jennie> ...We have divided up the work that needs to be done to update Making content usable, and different subgroups are working on these tasks
14:52:05 <Jennie> ...Are there subgroups here that would like time - and each could have a time here
14:52:35 <Jennie> ...Are there other subgroups that want to present?
14:52:37 <Jennie> q+
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14:53:23 <Jennie> ack Jennie
14:53:42 <Jennie> Jennie: I think the testing group won't be ready for a presentation, but may benefit from a working time slot
14:53:47 <Rachael> Feel free to reach out to me
14:53:51 <Rachael> Happy to do that.
14:53:51 <Jennie> Shawn: It might be nice, as a new attendee, to have a mentor
14:53:52 <Rachael> I
14:53:59 <Jennie> ...for attending
14:54:15 <Jennie> Lisa: Maybe join the orientation call with Kiki and I will put some time on TPAC
14:54:21 <Jennie> ShawnT: It is more just about TPAC
14:54:36 <Jennie> q?
14:54:42 <ShawnT> Thank you Rachael
14:54:48 <Lisa> ack next
14:55:14 <Jennie> Lisa: I will put together a better page with the call in information
14:55:21 <Jennie> ...And I will put TPAC on the agenda for next week
14:55:51 <Jennie> Lisa: We have mental health - I can put that on the agenda
14:56:08 <Jennie> ...I will put the provisional findings of the research subgroup
14:56:34 <Jennie> ...Is there anything else people feel their topic needs face to face, productive time?
14:56:54 <Lisa> ack next
14:57:04 <Jennie> ...I will ask everyone to try to keep these days free. There will be lots of interesting conversations happening
14:57:27 <Rachael> q+
14:57:41 <Jennie> John K: Do we have one on testing?
14:57:48 <Jennie> Jennie: Yes, a working time, not a presentation
14:58:00 <Jennie> Lisa: OK, thank you John. You might find it really kicks things off
14:58:15 <Jennie> ...We have a follow on meeting
14:58:20 <Jennie> ...The structure and research subgroups
14:58:26 <Jennie> ...We will have a 5 minute break
14:58:58 <Rachael> q-
14:59:14 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
14:59:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/25-coga-minutes.html Lisa
14:59:37 <Lisa> topic: subgroups for stucture ande reserch
15:00:20 <Rain> agenda+ analysis of the structure survey responses to date
15:00:29 <Lisa> agenda+ survey for reserch doc. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-VdpaYq0qLk0bZYryimWb-VL_tlklX-D1Uvtd2btzrw/edit
15:00:42 <Lisa> agenda+ do we want to delay and go via ethics commity ?
15:01:01 <Lisa> agenda+ sending it out? see https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-VdpaYq0qLk0bZYryimWb-VL_tlklX-D1Uvtd2btzrw/edit  data collection from structure survey
15:01:08 <Lisa> agenda+ review plan at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wu0WYcvCpp-zIz2NzPk2AuTJOrzgh3T4sKQgzCa10ps/edit#
15:01:38 <Lisa> close item 5
15:01:59 <Lisa> close item 3
15:02:08 <Lisa> close item 4
15:03:00 <roy__> roy__ has joined #coga
15:08:21 <Rain> Deck with the current analysis: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1PTCdFcg6NRK4exNX9LIquCGFHIwthQod4lgXpQx4vKw/edit#slide=id.g1470018ce4c_0_0
15:08:36 <Lisa> zakim, next item
15:08:36 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- analysis of the structure survey responses to date -- taken up [from Rain]
15:08:43 <roy__> roy__ has joined #coga
15:10:13 <Lisa> scribe+ lisa
15:10:37 <Lisa> rain is showing the slides
15:11:14 <Lisa> tech and US centric at the moment
15:11:50 <Lisa> most are content creaters
15:12:08 <Lisa> but a lot of individuals from coga and advocat4es
15:12:47 <Lisa> low from owners, accedemia, educators
15:14:20 <Lisa> may be a los from educators
15:14:55 <Lisa> 70% cognative accessibility for many years, not reaching new
15:16:11 <Lisa> most do not use it occasionaly or regualy
15:16:29 <ShawnT> I live and work in Quebec and it's hard for me to share it because it's not in French
15:16:49 <Lisa> are u working on a transalation?
15:17:11 <Lisa> need to give people more of a reason to return
15:18:18 <ShawnT> Would you like me to? From my understanding Google forms isn't accessible in French. Maybe I can make a Microsoft Forms version.
15:18:54 <Lisa> use: citation, headings, quick ref, practicle design, teminolgy and persona , design stamdard to share with team
15:19:23 <Lisa> pelple are using it to convince their team
15:19:45 <Lisa> 4& did not find what they are looking for...
15:19:52 <ShawnT> +q to ask if I could create a Microsoft forms version in French and English?
15:20:27 <Lisa> findability is a huge issue
15:20:51 <Lisa> acjk next
15:20:56 <Lisa> ack next
15:20:57 <Zakim> ShawnT, you wanted to ask if I could create a Microsoft forms version in French and English?
15:22:03 <Lisa> rain: let me check with kiki how to do this
15:22:12 <Lisa> shawn: we did something similar
15:24:10 <Lisa> negative comments: too much, findability, practicality, need the reserch , get lost, it get mixed up
15:24:38 <Lisa> not easy to understand, repetive
15:24:57 <ShawnT> +q to speak on Ctrl+F
15:25:51 <Le> Le has joined #coga
15:25:52 <Lisa> it gets used at each phase in life cycle
15:26:28 <Lisa> people want: practicle example, simplifing wayfinding, reserch
15:27:12 <Lisa> note we have the reserch but it is not mapped
15:27:37 <Lisa> q+
15:27:41 <ShawnT> +1 to mapping the research to the document content
15:28:37 <Le> q+
15:29:09 <Lisa> clarify pourpose, overwelming, w3c note issue
15:29:44 <Lisa> comment: wcag 2 feels discrimination
15:30:35 <Lisa> also some realy nice feedback#no clicking just scroolling
15:30:44 <Lisa> great resource
15:31:13 <Lisa> ack next
15:31:14 <Zakim> ShawnT, you wanted to speak on Ctrl+F
15:32:13 <Lisa> shawn: do we have a pattern on contol f?
15:32:55 <kirkwood> finding within hidden content is a very good point!
15:33:15 <Rain> ack Lisa
15:33:45 <Rain> Lisa: did not find this depressing, these are problems we knew we had
15:33:59 <Lisa> new issues for stucture from working group. see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CeqiSy3tVDoeBzCG8LpkyFT1fvugGk86JuT6NvfSiAA/edit#
15:34:09 <Rain> ... knew publishing document to get it out there, then revise
15:34:23 <Rain> ... new issues from the working group, what Shawn just did was pull out some issues
15:34:38 <Rain> ... as a subgroup and participants, to put ideas we have into the document as well
15:34:54 <Rain> ... and have the subgroup look at that document of suggestions, as well
15:35:33 <Rain> ... be careful when restructure not to destroy the things that are working
15:35:45 <Lisa> https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues
15:35:46 <Rain> ... have a slew of issues in the issues repository, as well, tagging for v2
15:36:46 <Rain> ... also ask people to fill this out at TPAC or the research one
15:36:50 <ShawnT> Could we make a QR code for it?
15:37:00 <Rain> ack Le
15:37:02 <Lisa> ack next
15:37:19 <roy__> roy__ has joined #coga
15:37:44 <Lisa> lea: is this an issue of the audence- are we to accidemic
15:38:35 <Lisa> should we have two versions,
15:38:46 <Rain> Lisa: for us that's valid
15:39:05 <Rain> ... EO makes the broader audience work, but not something tempted to push inside the W3C
15:39:11 <Rain> q+
15:40:21 <Lisa> ack next
15:40:28 <Lisa> next steps:
15:40:47 <Lisa> qualitave iterviews - 30 people
15:41:05 <Lisa> af=genda?
15:41:12 <Lisa> agenda?
15:41:53 <Lisa> rain is working on some stucture suggestions
15:42:11 <Lisa> caan anyone start moving forward with interviews
15:42:36 <Rain> Kiki: help work on the qualitative research questions
15:42:55 <Lisa> kiki can make script
15:43:01 <Lisa> thank u kiki
15:43:27 <Rain> scribe+
15:43:54 <Rain> zakim, pick up item 7
15:43:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick up item 7', Rain
15:44:03 <Rain> zakim, next item
15:44:03 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- survey for reserch doc. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-VdpaYq0qLk0bZYryimWb-VL_tlklX-D1Uvtd2btzrw/edit -- taken up [from Lisa]
15:44:35 <Rain> Lisa: research documents are out of date, so trying to figure out the importance of updating those documents and how they are released
15:44:58 <kirkwood> apologize due to a meeting conflict. I have a hard stop at 11:58
15:45:00 <Rain> ... created a survey for feedback, got good notes and updated most of them
15:45:08 <Rain> ... some things are getting too long
15:45:29 <Rain> ... for example, Rain suggested to break out the questions into separate ones instead of using the grid
15:45:32 <Rain> q+
15:46:26 <Rain> ack Rain
15:46:39 <Rain> Rain: concern around the grid is screen reader experience
15:46:59 <Rain> Lisa: ah, okay, thought a comprehension thing
15:47:05 <Rain> ... so we will test the grid to make sure that it works
15:47:15 <julierawe> q+
15:47:36 <Lisa> ack next
15:48:14 <Rain> Julie: mentioning that the demographic questions are not in the form
15:48:34 <Rain> ... so the question asking if the users are willing to add demographics needs to either be removed or have follow on
15:49:45 <Lisa> ack next
15:49:54 <Rain> Lisa: could delete the question, not sure the demographic information as needed here
15:51:18 <Rain> Lisa: EA asked if we should break up the roles, but that made it a bit long
15:51:49 <Rain> ... Testing and QA probably should remain together, but maybe Researcher and Academic should be separated?
15:51:56 <Rain> ... Does anyone mind if I don't split them up?
15:52:13 <Rain> +1 to keeping them together to make the data easier for us to parse later
15:52:33 <Rain> Kiki: I could see academic and researcher as separate because the work is very different
15:53:54 <Rain> Lisa: should we make a different spreadsheet to track where it is being sent?
15:54:21 <Rain> Rain: suggest use same sheet but make a separate tab
15:54:27 <Rain> Lisa: right, we can link to the individual tabs
15:54:43 <Rain> LInk to outreach record: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xXjHPCfWm00iAJqmjdwFq_RQ80vKwwxFAoiEGI3NOlM/edit?usp=chrome_omnibox&ouid=107030174649805411088
15:55:03 <kirkwood> +1
15:55:15 <Lisa> zakim, next item
15:55:15 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- do we want to delay and go via ethics commity ? -- taken up [from Lisa]
15:55:52 <julierawe> q+
15:56:02 <Rain> Lisa: would you like to go through an ethics committee, which could delay results by 3 months
15:56:05 <Rain> ack julierawe
15:56:09 <Lisa> ack next
15:57:01 <Rain> Julie: if we go through ethics, can we reduce the long preamble?
15:57:05 <Rain> Rain: we'd probably have to add more
15:57:15 <Rain> Lisa: no, there would be lots of standards we have to go through
15:57:36 <Rain> ... checking privacy and that we are meeting all of the international standards
15:57:42 <Rain> ... which means we may end up with more as a result
15:57:44 <ShawnT> This is the link Roy gave for the Ethics community at W3C: https://www.w3.org/community/pwe/
15:57:52 <julierawe> q+
15:57:57 <Rain> Lisa: advantage is that then we can publish in a journal
15:58:08 <Lisa> agenda?
15:58:20 <Rain> Julie: now that I understand more, this isn't the survey we'd want to hold up for publishing
15:58:26 <Rain> ack julierawe
15:58:40 <Rain> ... if we were to go the ethics route, it'd be protocols for doing user testing or something like that
15:58:44 <kirkwood> sorry must drop
15:59:09 <Rain> Lisa: question is, does anyone care?
15:59:21 <Lisa> agenda?
15:59:32 <Kiki> I have to drop
15:59:34 <julierawe> I agree with Rain--I vote for not going through the ethics committee
15:59:38 <Lisa> rain: it will also make it more complex
15:59:57 <Lisa> not sure what the gain is
16:00:00 <kirkwood> +1 to Rain
16:00:26 <Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wu0WYcvCpp-zIz2NzPk2AuTJOrzgh3T4sKQgzCa10ps/edit#heading=h.bls0z8ekj5k3
16:00:29 <Rain> Lisa: one more point, we made an original plan for a review
16:00:40 <Rain> ... please look it over and make comments
16:01:52 <ShawnT> thanks everyone
16:01:59 <Rain> thank you!
16:02:14 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:02:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/25-coga-minutes.html Lisa
16:03:01 <Lisa> trackbot, end meeting
16:03:01 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:03:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Jennie, rashmi, Rain, Lisa, julierawe, aaronchu, Roy, ShawnT, Fazio, Maya, David, Klaus, EA, Becca_Monteleone, Michal_Lahav, Le, kirkwood,
16:03:04 <Zakim> ... MichaelC, Rachael, Kiki
16:03:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/25-coga-minutes.html trackbot
16:03:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:03:10 <RRSAgent> I see no action items