07:57:47 RRSAgent has joined #webdriver 07:57:47 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/24-webdriver-irc 07:57:47 jfernandez has left #webdriver 07:57:54 Zakim has joined #webdriver 07:58:03 ss has joined #webdriver 07:58:28 RRSAgent: start meeting 07:58:28 I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', ss. Try /msg RRSAgent help 07:58:58 RRSAgent, start 07:59:06 Meeting: Automation summit Berlin 07:59:12 Chair: David Burns 07:59:17 RRSagent, set logs world-visible 07:59:24 jfernandez has joined #webdriver 07:59:25 Scribe: David Burns 07:59:36 ScribeNick: AutomatedTester 07:59:48 hablich has joined #webdriver 08:00:04 present+ 08:00:06 RRSAgent: this is WebDriver BiDi Automation Summit Berlin 08:00:06 I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is WebDriver BiDi Automation Summit Berlin', foolip. Try /msg RRSAgent help 08:00:21 present+ 08:00:29 present+ 08:00:34 Meysam has joined #webdriver 08:00:36 present+ 08:00:39 AlexRudenko has joined #webdriver 08:00:42 present+ 08:01:02 titusfortner has joined #webdriver 08:01:35 present+ 08:02:09 thiagowfx has joined #webdriver 08:02:21 present+ 08:02:28 present+ 08:02:46 present+ 08:03:06 present+ 08:03:18 present+ 08:03:23 present+ 08:03:25 present+ 08:04:43 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver#Meetings 08:05:02 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2022-08-BiDi-Automation-Summit-Berlin 08:05:22 present+ 08:05:32 present+ 08:05:34 present+ 08:07:23 I am impressed at the number of people in this room who feel safe to not have their laptops plugged in.... 08:08:16 jdescottes has joined #webdriver 08:09:19 Who's scribing? 08:10:31 I am when we start officially 08:11:59 Anybody a link to the Edge roadmap? 08:12:01 I'd love to see the Edge Bidi roadmap 08:12:51 Maybe it was posted in the Zoom call? can somebody share it here too? 08:13:01 everything is linked here: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2022-08-BiDi-Automation-Summit-Berlin 08:13:05 thanks 08:15:02 mathiasbynens (IRC): These slides show the road map that Chrome see ... and to start a discussion 08:15:30 ... THere are a group of users from implementators to end users 08:16:32 Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18SJv0K1_yeF9h6Gg42El-iMtL3uGiZRYgqmrScCqCuE/edit#slide=id.p 08:16:49 ... and here is the WPT.fyi page to show that things are moving forward 08:17:16 ... but we need to make sure that this group has alignm,ent to make sure that users are put forward 08:17:26 (those slides aren't currently public) 08:17:26 This is https://github.com/GoogleChromeLabs/chromium-bidi/milestones?direction=asc&sort=title&state=open 08:17:31 ... here is the chrome milestones 08:17:46 ... and here is our roadmap 08:18:26 ... [talks through slide "Chrome's Current Roadmap"] 08:18:50 ... this is based off the Puppeteer use cases 08:19:32 Slides are public now, oopsie 08:19:33 ... We don't see this as full roadmap or the order we think everyone should work on 08:19:43 q+ 08:19:56 ... what about the other items? 08:20:11 q? 08:20:37 ack simonstewart 08:21:05 q+ 08:21:23 simonstewart: step 7 in your roadmap would be to reformulate webdriver http on this... 08:21:35 mathiasbynens (IRC): is that a goal 08:21:46 simonstewart (IRC): yes that has always been a goal 08:22:07 It should be possible to do everything from webdriver classic in webdriver bidi 08:22:40 Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]: webdriver classic implementations are built to similar things that are in CDP 08:22:53 q? 08:23:01 ack foolip 08:23:03 slides link: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18SJv0K1_yeF9h6Gg42El-iMtL3uGiZRYgqmrScCqCuE/edit 08:23:09 Thank you 08:23:54 foolip (IRC): do we want to rewrite the spec or are we wanting to copy behaviour. 08:24:19 simonstewart (IRC): I don't think we want to rewrite the spec but we want to make sure we have the same behavior 08:24:39 q+ 08:24:49 q- 08:25:09 whimboo: we are missing a lot of tests in the webdriver classi which makes things harder to make sure we have the same behaviours 08:25:15 q? 08:26:22 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1azpI_HHYDew5UzB_r-b9J-OsWRAP1E3g2bstAPs7yF8/edit?pli=1#heading=h.yplbn92py38w. 08:26:53 Natasha: I wanted to introduce myself, I work on devtools and automation 08:27:05 ... this the doc that Brandon did 08:27:59 ... The first part is integrate with Bidi into Edge 08:29:50 ... after building something things Brandon added that we should do a refactor for EdgeDriver over Bidi 08:30:09 ... and how this will impact future tests 08:30:13 q? 08:30:22 q+ 08:30:25 q+ 08:30:34 q? 08:30:43 ack foolip 08:31:09 foolip: have you given more thought on how you will ship bidi? 08:32:08 that was me first, then hablich 08:32:14 I was talking, I am in the off 08:32:39 q? 08:32:47 ack Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders] 08:32:51 q? 08:33:17 q+ 08:33:40 Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]: THere is nothing in there that is specific to edge in this code? 08:33:52 q+ 08:34:29 Natasha: There is no deviation from Chromium to Edge 08:34:46 q? 08:35:01 ack Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders] 08:35:16 ack me 08:35:29 ack Hablich 08:36:24 hablich (IRC): I have question around perf metrics. Is there an attempt to make this cross browser or is there more introspection 08:36:46 q? 08:37:24 ack 08:37:52 ack next 08:38:29 sadym (IRC): are the priorities in the doc in order? 08:38:50 Natasha: yes but 2 is the most important part to this group 08:39:19 q+ 08:39:30 sadym (IRC): what was the process on how Brandon created this list? 08:39:43 Natasha: great question, I will get Brandon to respond 08:39:58 ack next 08:41:54 Firefox status: https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebDriver/RemoteProtocol/WebDriver_BiDi 08:41:57 whimboo: I don't have fancy lides to share 08:42:14 ... I have just shared where we are so far 08:42:54 ... we have been implementing what users have wanted 08:43:07 ... [discusses a few items in the doc] 08:43:20 ... the next milestone is working on Network Interception 08:43:48 q+ 08:44:21 ... we don't have anything further planned as we are waiting for the outcome of this meeting 08:44:42 ack next 08:45:25 foolip: my question is about network events ? Do you think webdriver bidi should have how to implement a HAR? 08:45:55 whimboo: good question, we have only done the network interception. It's a big question 08:46:06 ... and we're collecting the events only 08:46:22 q? 08:46:26 Looks like https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/196 is the spec change that is needed for this. 08:48:19 Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]: For Safari, Apple does not comment on future products and releases 08:48:49 q+ 08:48:57 ack next 08:49:32 diemol (IRC): is there anyway to get help to Safari from the Selenium project? Like asking Igalia to help? 08:50:47 Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]: I am not sure I am the right person to answer. There are 2 potential questions that needs answer do we need to have a protocol along side or on top of protocols will impact how we do things in webkit to safari 08:51:22 AutomatedTester: If Apple would like support from the Selenium project or other would like support do let us know 08:52:36 Christian Bromann: I am currently working on wdio and the next release will have this in it 08:52:49 gsnedders: What was slide 2? Or 1? 08:53:09 ... I am hoping to get the cddl package from Saucelabs so we can autogenerate things better on the fly 08:53:10 q+ 08:53:16 ack next 08:53:18 https://www.npmjs.com/package/webdriver/v/8.0.0-alpha.249 08:53:22 gsnedders: :D 08:53:33 whimboo: which commands does it implement? 08:53:39 gsnedders: missed opportunity to make slide 1 say "One more thing…" with slide 2 being the punchline 08:54:02 Christian Bromann: you send and receive objects only at the moment 08:54:17 ... it does the lowest level comms 08:54:27 q? 08:54:38 q+ 08:54:53 ack next 08:55:29 foolip (IRC): are you trying to support webdriver "classic" users or are you going be having a bidi mode 08:56:30 Christian Bromann: the transport layer won't be visibile to the user. As features get added they will slowly move over to the other users 08:56:32 RRSAgent, make minutes 08:56:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/24-webdriver-minutes.html gsnedders 08:57:02 simonstewart (IRC): This is likely how the Selenium client is also going to do it 08:57:04 RRSAgent, make minutes public 08:57:04 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', gsnedders. Try /msg RRSAgent help 08:57:15 RRSAgent, set minutes public 08:57:15 I'm logging. I don't understand 'set minutes public', gsnedders. Try /msg RRSAgent help 08:57:35 RRSAgent, make logs public 08:57:43 q? 08:57:56 q+ 08:58:02 ack next 08:59:22 Puja Jagani: THis is what we have currently written and moving things forward 08:59:26 Link to Puja's doc https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dCd8Y2PYaR5mOGSmNTwllEHNmFqegfoGkP-TCKvPzSU/edit?usp=sharing 09:00:03 ... this has come from the discussions with Mozilla 09:00:28 ... the first implementation was done by Alex (p0deje) from the selenium project 09:00:36 ... and we're working on Java next 09:01:26 ... [describes handshake] 09:02:33 i/Apple does not comment/gsnedders sharing https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/mozilla.org/774c24c6adccccd812b410301c19d3eedf64a92c/Untitled%202.001.png 09:02:49 ... [describes event handling API at a high level] 09:02:51 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:02:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/24-webdriver-minutes.html gsnedders 09:03:15 ... this document is a living doc as we move forward through things 09:03:44 ... I know there is some discussion about supporting CDP and BIDI in the future 09:03:57 s/Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]/gsnedders/g 09:04:10 ... and this is our starting point 09:04:13 q+ 09:04:18 q+ 09:04:42 q? 09:04:48 ack next 09:05:10 titusfortner (IRC): I haven't read the doc as much as I would have liked to 09:05:52 ... I am not sure if this is in the doc using `execute_cdp_command` 09:06:34 ... and we don't want people using that 09:07:39 ... and we need to keep plans for what we do and have plan for docs 09:07:48 q+ 09:08:36 Puja Jagani: we have always told people not to use CDP rawly (is this a word?) but this is more about the public APIs 09:08:56 ... it's covered but I will add more specific prose in my doc for that 09:09:02 q? 09:09:10 ack hablich (IRC) 09:10:11 hablich (IRC): for puppeteer we plan to move things to bidi unless we need to have a specific item in cdp 09:11:02 titusfortner (IRC): my issue is that there are docs on other sites using low level APIs when it's not the right way 09:11:18 q? 09:11:23 ack next 09:12:20 ack next 09:12:45 simonstewart (IRC): historical note: back in the day we did only http 09:13:02 ... then we added execute cdp and never got anything back 09:13:18 ... and then we moved on to how we do CDP 09:13:30 ... Network Intercept was one of the more popular ones 09:14:22 ... and Selenium could deprecate and remove the `execute_cdp_command` as there are much better ways to do it 09:15:09 foolip (IRC): we are going to have an interesting time ahead as clients will have to do feature detection and then go from there 09:15:40 simonstewart (IRC): it's fun times ahead... we could use exception handling as flow control 🤮 09:16:06 ... we have prior art in the client on how to do that 09:16:36 q? 09:17:06 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18SJv0K1_yeF9h6Gg42El-iMtL3uGiZRYgqmrScCqCuE/edit#slide=id.g146bd9eddb0_1_23 09:17:44 Alex Rudenko: I work on Puppeteer at Chrome 09:18:24 ... we are going to adding bidi alongside with cdp 09:18:41 ... [discusses code example] 09:20:31 ... we are going to keep the client API the same as much as possible 09:21:41 q? 09:21:48 q+ 09:21:58 ack whimboo 09:22:40 whimboo: Will you use Bidi directly or have upgrade session process? 09:22:48 Alex Rudenko: not sure 09:23:22 sadym (IRC): we haven't settled on how we are going to be doing that 09:24:22 Alex Rudenko: we will try support everything as we move forward 09:24:24 q+ 09:24:32 ack next 09:25:07 foolip (IRC): do you have anything in particular with how the session is done? 09:25:50 whimboo: currently we have the drivers from classic to get things into the correct state and then get the connection 09:26:09 q+ 09:26:44 Alex Rudenko: we aren't sure how this will be in the spec like do we start the browser and then send capabilities... 09:27:10 whimboo: there are some PRs from jgraham that hopefully solves this 09:27:16 ack next 09:28:11 simonstewart (IRC): we need to think about how people use scalable selenium systems like our SaaS providers (BrowserStack, Sauce, et al) and Selenium grid 09:28:49 ... we need to have a standardised way to make all the permutations on clients easier to update 09:29:09 foolip (IRC): [missed question] 09:29:51 simonstewart (IRC): [describes running things locally with chrome and then moving to a grid to scale up] 09:30:20 Alex Rudenko: [describes 2 ways to start sessions in Puppeteer] 09:30:49 A consistent mechanism for starting a session means that local ends don't need to adopt a lot of additional complexity 09:32:12
09:32:39 s/[missing question]/if anything needs to change to support what Simon asked for, if we're not talking about the hub/grid URLs that you can connect to, and then upgrade to BiDi./ 09:32:49 RRSAgent (IRC): make minutes 09:33:01 rrsagent: make minutes 09:33:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/24-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester 09:46:50 For people locally at the wework: Please ping me via mail in case you want attend today's dinner! 09:49:17 Topic: WebDriver BiDi adoption by Selenium 09:51:08 sadym (IRC): I want to see how we can move these things forward 09:51:30 ... what are the missing missing parts, collab process and priority of use cases 09:51:46 sadym (IRC): missing parts? 09:52:51 Titusfortner: We have connection starts but that's it 09:52:51 q+ 09:53:03 Puja Jagani: that is correct. 09:53:33 Titusfortner: We have logging which is purely specific to Firefox 09:54:02 ... but I see that Edge has some of that from the roadmaps 09:54:09 ... at the moment everything is missing except logging 09:54:37 sadym (IRC): what is required to get adoption? 09:55:00 diemol has joined #webdriver 09:55:02 q+ 09:55:33 titusfortner has joined #webdriver 09:55:39 q+ 09:55:55 Puja Jagani: The roadmaps give us a direction but it would be good to know what is being impl,mented by each group as we move forward 09:56:00 ack next 09:56:08 q- 09:56:17 ack next 09:56:51 whimboo: There are 2 points: 1 ) we currently see support for firefox, it would be good to add the same for Chrome 09:57:21 ... and future APIs, navigation and script execution are next and nearly complete 09:57:26 q? 09:57:57 Puja Jagani: we only did Firefox because that's the only one that we know had that features ready 09:58:07 q+ 09:58:26 ... we are going to need to do that for CHrome and then having a mechanism to send the info to Selenium TLC group for next steps 09:58:27 q+ 09:59:02 ... as things are implemented we need to have a way to know what and when things are ready 09:59:05 q? 09:59:10 ack next 09:59:44 diemol (IRC): for me it's really hard to understand the use cases for the spec 10:00:17 ... do we have a list of use cases that we can then track against 10:00:54 mathiasbynens (IRC): I'm not sure it exists but that's how we have approached it for Chrome 10:01:12 ... but it would good to track them 10:01:13 q+ 10:01:29 simonstewart (IRC): There used to be a doc/issue that had this but I can't find it 10:01:30 q? 10:01:57 https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/blob/master/explainer.md#goals 10:02:21 [various discussion about where we originally had goals recorded, trying to find it] 10:02:23 simonstewart (IRC): the link shared has a link to the goals 10:02:55 mathiasbynens (IRC): It looks like we have diverged from what we wanted and what we have implemented 10:03:21 simonstewart (IRC): [discusses items in the list at high level] 10:03:42 ... I don't think we have diverged too far 10:04:23 ... the item that's not in there are devtools support [did not catch the rest] 10:04:27 q? 10:05:14 diemol (IRC): I am trying to follow the spec and since I don't fully understand it... 10:05:46 ... is there a way we can have this in a way that maps user cases to prose changes 10:06:14 ... I think this will allow client implementors to follow 10:06:34 hablich (IRC): from a list of use cases to what is implemented? 10:06:57 [various of how use cases could be written] 10:07:19 diemol (IRC): like we have the original plans from 2019 but no way of knowing where we are on that list 10:07:40 ... it would be good to make sure we can track it 10:07:52 hablich (IRC): I can see this being useful for Selenium 10:08:12 ... are there others that could benefit 10:08:46 Christian Bromann: I've been following but it's a lot work to follow 10:09:03 https://wpt.fyi/results/webdriver/tests/bidi?label=experimental&label=master&aligned&q=webdriver 10:10:00 mathiasbynens (IRC): we have the wpt.fyi 10:11:56 q+ 10:12:00 ... it's good to track things across browsers 10:12:54 AutomatedTester: Does wpt.fyi have sufficient linking to use cases for non-browser folks to understand 10:13:22 diemol (IRC): it would be good to have something in the spec to help us 10:13:37 q? 10:13:39 mathiasbynens (IRC): I think we can use features in bikeshed to help do this 10:14:26 diemol (IRC): It would be good to help end users know what is possible 10:16:17 titusfortner (IRC): it would be good to see how end users know things in selenium/puppeteer terms 10:17:10 Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]: another way to do this is to have the explainer linked to the parts of the spec that supports that feature 10:17:45 https://github.com/GoogleChromeLabs/chromium-bidi/milestone/2 10:18:03 sadym (IRC): here is a link to our milestone 2 10:18:42 ... in the milestone we show the command that people need to complete this tasks 10:18:54 ... and we have links to the relevant WPT 10:19:49 ... and we also have items for how far other implementors are 10:20:24 ... and it has a link to a example script 10:21:02 https://github.com/GoogleChromeLabs/chromium-bidi/blob/main/examples/cross-browser-simplified.py 10:21:38 mathiasbynens (IRC): we can see about moving some of these use cases from the Chrome repo to the W3C to help people understand where things are 10:22:24 sadym (IRC): [discusses python example linked above] 10:22:57 q? 10:23:19 sadym (IRC): we'd be happy to move share this in a wider context 10:23:25 q? 10:23:46 q-\ 10:23:51 q- 10:24:35 hablich (IRC): Assuming browsers are going to implement it super fast for Selenium to catch up? 10:24:43 simonstewart (IRC): it depends on the binding 10:30:24 AutomatedTester: [desribe issues with async/sync puthon ] 10:30:55 diemol (IRC): we want to release things as soon as possible but we want to release in tandom 10:30:57 q? 10:31:03 ack next 10:31:10 ack next 10:32:18 foolip (IRC): we need to link and make that better but a lot of the work that has been fulfilled is purely scaffolding 10:33:06 ... it would be also good to help get things prioritised 10:36:02 simonstewart has joined #webdriver 10:52:48 simonstewart has joined #webdriver 11:32:32 hablich has joined #webdriver 11:33:13 simonstewart has joined #webdriver 11:34:37 present+ 11:35:08 jdescottes has joined #webdriver 11:35:37 present+ 11:35:39 Topic: Prioritising Use Cases 11:36:34 q+ 11:38:12 q- 11:38:44 https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2022-08-BiDi-Automation-Summit-Berlin#Agenda updated by simonstewart 11:38:57 q+ 11:39:48 simonstewart (IRC): This list is the thing that I think a lot of people are already expected 11:40:00 diemol has joined #webdriver 11:40:05 q+ 11:41:13 simonstewart (IRC): I think things like DOM events is already there 11:41:52 Alex Rudenko: allows you to install a listens and then go from there 11:42:16 simonstewart (IRC): to us that is "bootstrapping" as it allows you install a script and do things 11:42:50 foolip: [discusses bootstrapping in sandboxing with sadym] 11:43:14 simonstewart (IRC): you probably want those bootstrapped scripts to run before a page is loaded 11:43:34 ... bootstrapping, dom events and logging is the main 3 for selenium 11:43:44 ... video recording is handled out of band 11:43:55 q? 11:45:00 Request interception is also a high priority item for Selenium users 11:45:03 ack next 11:45:47 Christian Bromann: I would allow us to implement listeners so we can compete properly against tools like cypress 11:46:12 foolip: is bootstrapping worth it in or out of sandbox 11:46:21 simonstewart (IRC): what does a sandbox mean here? 11:46:22 q+ 11:46:42 sadym: [unaudible] 11:47:00 ack next 11:47:26 diemol (IRC): one of the highest priorities from Selenium is "Network interception" 11:47:27 Sandbox in this case is the JS execution context 11:47:56 ... this is the most requested and hardest to use 11:48:04 ... from Selenium that is the highest 11:48:34 ... we do get a lot of people asking for video recording and, as simon saidm we offer that in docker containers 11:48:46 ... but people want that in the borwser 11:49:04 q? 11:49:12 ack next 11:49:15 q+ 11:49:16 q- 11:49:18 q+ 11:49:20 ack next 11:49:47 q+ 11:49:54 q- 11:50:10 q+ 11:50:13 whimboo: we need to see about getting network logging done first and then we need to work on the interception next 11:50:21 ... jgraham has a PR for this already 11:50:23 James's PR is https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/204 11:50:38 q? 11:50:45 ack next 11:51:00 simonstewart (IRC): do we want events and interception as 2 different groups of work 11:52:09 ... [describes immutability and mutability of these events] 11:52:55 q- 11:53:23 ... [describes how it workswith Alex Rudenko in modules] 11:53:43 whimboo: we need to start somewhere and we're starting with event logging of network events 11:53:47 ack next 11:55:11 sadym: how would we impl.ement this in the clients? 11:55:28 simonstewart (IRC): local ends already paper over the cracks between implementation 11:55:30 q+ 11:55:46 ... we can try cdp and fail and try bidi 11:55:52 q? 11:55:56 ack next 11:56:52 sadym: what about clients that do cdp but not classic they wouldn't necessarily be able to do it 11:57:24 q+ 11:58:55 ... if we deprioritise classic items then it will take non selenium clients longer to move across 11:59:27 The Actions API is https://w3c.github.io/webdriver/#actions 12:00:47 James's PR for an input module is https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/175 12:00:54 scribe foolip 12:01:03 RRSAgent: scripe foolip 12:01:03 I'm logging. I don't understand 'scripe foolip', foolip. Try /msg RRSAgent help 12:01:06 ScribeNick: foolip 12:01:08 q? 12:01:17 ack next 12:02:32 diemol: On the different use cases, wondering if the next topic (reformulating) is more important? Reaching out to framework implementers which aren't Selenium. They caught up with WebDriver in a year or two. Catching up with BiDi would take more time. Important to discuss if we'll have classic working over BiDi? 12:02:48 diemol: People like to use new languages, and they've capturing a good audience. WDYT? 12:03:10