12:08:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver
12:08:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/19-silver-irc
12:08:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:08:39 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
12:09:28 <jeanne> present:
12:09:28 <jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne
12:09:28 <jeanne> present+
12:09:28 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
12:09:28 <Zakim> agenda cleared
12:09:29 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
12:09:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/19-silver-minutes.html jeanne
12:09:29 <jeanne> q?
12:10:29 <jeanne> agenda+ AGWG this week
12:10:50 <jeanne> agenda+ Sub-group reports next Tuesday & Friday
12:10:50 <jeanne> agenda+ Continuation of Writing Process
13:46:40 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver
13:50:05 <Lauriat> Lauriat has joined #silver
13:50:09 <Lauriat> agenda?
13:51:21 <janina> janina has joined #silver
13:51:33 <janina> agenda?
13:51:42 <janina> present+
13:58:39 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #silver
13:59:10 <Chuck> agenda?
14:01:03 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #silver
14:01:05 <Lauriat> Checking scribe list: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
14:01:13 <sarahhorton> present+
14:01:20 <Lauriat> Present+
14:01:57 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #silver
14:02:16 <maryjom> scribe: maryjom
14:02:21 <Jem> Jem has joined #silver
14:02:23 <maryjom> present+
14:02:26 <Jem> present+
14:02:40 <Jem> zakim, agenda?
14:02:40 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:02:41 <Zakim> 1. AGWG this week [from jeanne]
14:02:41 <Zakim> 2. Sub-group reports next Tuesday & Friday [from jeanne]
14:02:41 <Zakim> 3. Continuation of Writing Process [from jeanne]
14:02:45 <jenS> jenS has joined #silver
14:02:49 <jenS> present+
14:03:01 <maryjom> zakim, take up item 1
14:03:01 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- AGWG this week -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:03:13 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #silver
14:03:28 <Makoto> present+
14:03:44 <jeanne> AGwG Agenda -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2022Aug/0049.html
14:03:59 <maryjom> jeanne: AG WG meeting - we are giving two sub-group reports, and the rest of the meeting is on WCAG 2.2 content an surveys.
14:04:41 <maryjom> zakim, take up next
14:04:41 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Sub-group reports next Tuesday & Friday -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:05:54 <maryjom> jeanne: Plan on sub-groups - Since WCAG 2.2 work takes so much time during AG WG meeting, only 2 sub-group reports are on Tues and the rest will be on Friday's Silver meeting.
14:06:12 <maryjom> jeanne: We don't yet know which sub-groups will meet on which of the meetings.
14:06:21 <maryjom> zakim, take up next
14:06:21 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Continuation of Writing Process -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:06:33 <jeanne> Writing Process Overview -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iu3-vr2vMoDxr0YjwSEQsuOMjTzQxh1ODgRd57Ea-i8/
14:06:45 <jenS> [We all appreciate you, Mary Jo!]
14:07:06 <maryjom> jeanne: We've done the overview work that needs to be done. We still need to figure out where the How-to fits.
14:07:55 <janina> q+ for the single doc
14:07:57 <jenS> q+
14:08:02 <maryjom> jeanne: Should we have one document with everything in it, or individual documents for each stage of development (exploratory, etc.)
14:08:12 <Lauriat> ack janina
14:08:12 <Jem> My preference is single doc too
14:08:12 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to discuss the single doc
14:08:43 <maryjom> janina: A single document keeps you from having to click around to different documents.
14:08:54 <Lauriat> ack jenS
14:08:57 <Jem> navigating is more confusing/challenging in the sea of W3C docs
14:08:59 <jeanne> accordion format
14:09:08 <maryjom> jeanne: Use headings so outline mode can work.
14:09:12 <KimD> KimD has joined #silver
14:09:50 <jeanne> Table of levels -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iu3-vr2vMoDxr0YjwSEQsuOMjTzQxh1ODgRd57Ea-i8/edit#heading=h.rzl1gosh09i3
14:10:41 <Chuck> +1 no objections
14:10:43 <Chuck> q+
14:10:58 <maryjom> jeanne: Let's keep working on this document and keep it a single document since no objections heard.
14:11:11 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
14:11:51 <maryjom> Chuck: There were strengths and weaknesses to using separate vs. single documents.
14:12:15 <jenS> q+
14:12:29 <maryjom> Chuck: Some individuals like lots of detail, but might be overwhelmed by everything being in one document. But a single document is agreeable.
14:12:47 <maryjom> jeanne: We could use accordions to reduce what is seen at a time.
14:12:52 <Jem> +1 for moving  it to github.
14:12:57 <Lauriat> ack jenS
14:13:42 <maryjom> Jem: For each H2, can it start on a new page? Accordions some people struggle with - especially screen reader users.
14:14:31 <Jem> we can make sure that the page itself is accessible.
14:15:10 <maryjom> jeanne: I plan to do it in semantic HTML which will make it as accessible as possible.
14:15:46 <maryjom> Jem: The GitHub accordions are what have been causing issues.
14:15:47 <Jem> agenda?
14:16:17 <maryjom> jeanne: This will be delivered as a document with no GitHub chrome.
14:16:31 <maryjom> zakim, take up next
14:16:31 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, maryjom
14:16:43 <jeanne> Template for Content Creation Process -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Smly4XDxfzfXHa7AoUxoLXLy_3PdOXMkh0ZwtgksSPk/
14:17:00 <Chuck> s/Jem/Jennifer/
14:17:03 <maryjom> s/jem/jennifer/
14:17:14 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:17:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/19-silver-minutes.html jeanne
14:17:22 <jenS> [Teamwork FTW!]
14:18:07 <jenS> [JE <3]
14:20:15 <maryjom> jeanne: We need to look at exploratory, and whether it's in developing. AG WG like that direction.  And when things are going into maturing which is ready to go into the final stages "refining".
14:21:07 <sarahhorton> q+
14:21:33 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
14:22:09 <maryjom> sarahhorton: The more involved process is if you click a link to the instructions to choose the user needs. Does this belong in the template?
14:22:42 <maryjom> sarahhorton: We had done this as we were analyzing WCAG SC.
14:23:06 <maryjom> jeanne: We are hoping to work in a more agile way. It may be appropriate to revisit things in greater detail.
14:24:09 <maryjom> jeanne: The analysis wasn't originally meant to be as detailed as it turned out, and we could consider putting in some information from the analysis as placeholder content.
14:24:49 <maryjom> jeanne: We could then have some "boilerplate" information for teams to do further work in Silver.
14:24:57 <Lauriat> qv?
14:25:21 <sarahhorton> q+
14:25:36 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
14:26:01 <maryjom> jeanne: Should we do this and then work in greater depth, or will it create a lot more work?
14:26:29 <jeanne> User Flows - Where does that fit in with user needs?
14:26:47 <maryjom> sarahhorton: For errors, we focused more on flows and in error prevention. Things that aren't necessarily in WCAG.
14:27:16 <maryjom> sarahhorton: Is the current activity migrating and then after that we do gap analysis and figure out what's missing?
14:28:49 <maryjom> sarahhorton: When we were working outside of pure migration, by analyzing user needs we found things that weren't similar, but not covered in current WCAG SC.
14:29:03 <Lauriat> q+ to agree in mentioning the outline process
14:29:18 <Chuck> +1 (chair hat off) doing after placeholder, in exploratory
14:29:19 <jeanne> ack la
14:29:19 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to agree in mentioning the outline process
14:29:27 <maryjom> jeanne: I don't think we want to do a straight migration - doesn't add value. We do need to think about gaps early in the proces.
14:29:34 <maryjom> s/proces/process/
14:29:42 <Jem> I had the same suggestion do it in Exploratory stage.
14:29:53 <Jem> s/do it/to do it/
14:30:19 <Jem> +q
14:30:27 <Lauriat> ack Jem
14:30:28 <jeanne> Outline of Migration Process -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/
14:30:28 <maryjom> Lauriat: Agrees with Jeanne.
14:31:00 <maryjom> Jem: Is this related to the maturity model?
14:31:16 <maryjom> s/model/level/
14:32:06 <maryjom> jeanne: Yes, it's about what things we need to do to make sure exploratory content is brought in as early as possible.
14:32:09 <Lauriat> q+ to note the quickness and a possible solution
14:33:23 <maryjom> Lauriat: We need to have a quick turnaround on things, and we could do it by doing a quick sketch of what is needed and then have people working to develop it.
14:33:29 <Lauriat> ack me
14:33:29 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to note the quickness and a possible solution
14:33:38 <maryjom> Lauriat: and incorporate key stakeholders to review, give input.
14:33:42 <Jem> +1 to importance of review process.
14:34:04 <maryjom> Lauriat: Don't want to review at end, but tighter iterations and targeted reviews.
14:34:10 <Jem> "targeted review" is a good idea.
14:34:52 <maryjom> jeanne: What about exploring user needs, then user flows.
14:35:52 <sarahhorton> q+
14:36:32 <maryjom> jeanne: In the table should exploratory be to write specific user needs. Under developing - write the detailed user flows.
14:36:58 <Jem> error prevention may be the example for Sarah's point?
14:37:01 <maryjom> sarahhorton: We wrote flows first (the opposite of what you said).
14:37:05 <sarahhorton> Errors user flows brainstorm: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1siHMdNk96v2DVY6sarjZCDt5-nvqvQq13bXOOYymNlw/edit#heading=h.9e8ame41zvih
14:38:35 <maryjom> sarahhorton: The functional needs were then written down based on what happens in different stages of the user flow.
14:39:20 <maryjom> sarahhorton: So in the course of walking through the user flow with the functional needs, we identified requirements that could turn into outcomes or tests in WCAG 2
14:39:24 <maryjom> s/2/3
14:39:44 <jeanne> +1 I'm convinced
14:40:33 <Lauriat> q+ to mention the matrix
14:40:33 <maryjom> sarahhorton: So what came first, flows then functional needs then user needs and you can get to the outcomes, methods and  tests
14:40:40 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
14:41:07 <sarahhorton> Error user need matrix: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BEzSKUsoMQZAwLY5uM5T4Jk7vqKruQT8EaheijQJ7nk/edit#gid=14365122
14:42:07 <maryjom> sarahhorton: Eventually it became a worksheet and we could identify gaps in the current standard to explore if a new requirement is needed.
14:42:40 <maryjom> Lauriat: This kind of exercise, the matrix that Jake made can help support this process.
14:43:30 <Lauriat> ack me
14:43:30 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to mention the matrix
14:43:34 <Jem> q+ to ask how to keep the agility of the work
14:43:35 <maryjom> Lauriat: It won't be a "we need to do everything in the matrix" but it will help the analysis.
14:43:54 <maryjom> jeanne: Developing user needs worksheet - in exploratory or developing stage?
14:43:59 <Lauriat> ack Jem
14:43:59 <Zakim> Jem, you wanted to ask how to keep the agility of the work
14:45:00 <sarahhorton> q+
14:45:05 <maryjom> Jem: Jeanne was emphasize agility to make progress. So if we do all of this analysis, how to we make it agile and quick to use, develop the spec.
14:45:38 <Chuck> Jake's sounds like "developing"
14:45:54 <maryjom> Lauriat: The matrix is for checking at a higher level if everything is included.
14:46:12 <MichaelC> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=470134919
14:46:16 <jenS> Agree re Jake's matrix — I thought it was very useful.
14:46:28 <maryjom> Lauriat: Link above is Jake's matrix.
14:46:52 <MichaelC> This work was done in the functional needs subgroup, which has been moved to APA and being continued there, with expectations of continued coordination here
14:46:58 <jeanne> Use Needs vs Functional Needs Mapping Proposal from Jake ->https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=470134919
14:47:05 <maryjom> Lauriat: It gave us a way to express that some guidance was meant to address a specific user need, but may also address other user needs.
14:48:07 <maryjom> Lauriat: You can identify the intersections and quickly review and see gaps.
14:49:00 <sarahhorton> q+
14:49:13 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
14:49:13 <maryjom> Lauriat: You don't need to plug everything in there, but can help us eventually tag in a database.
14:49:39 <maryjom> jeanne: We have the Notion database and we could further develop or copy things from there into a new database.
14:50:12 <Lauriat> +1 on the user flows helping immensely with this
14:50:33 <maryjom> sarahhorton: Walking through scenarios was a very helpful process to see what the user needs were along the path of the scenario.
14:51:08 <maryjom> sarahhorton: We have a similar matrix but mapping out tests to assess of a certain test fails to know what user needs were not met and assessing the severity based on that.
14:51:18 <Jem> q+ to ask the order of the work to get to the bottom of workflow details. so is jake's sheet to be used in "exploratory" state in the table of content by maturity LEVEL ?
14:51:20 <maryjom> sarahhorton: We'll probably be presenting that next week.
14:51:44 <maryjom> s/of a certain/if a certain/
14:51:48 <jeanne> q+ to talk about how it fits in How-to
14:51:50 <Lauriat> ack Jem
14:51:50 <Zakim> Jem, you wanted to ask the order of the work to get to the bottom of workflow details. so is jake's sheet to be used in "exploratory" state in the table of content by maturity
14:51:53 <Zakim> ... LEVEL ?
14:52:24 <Chuck> q+
14:52:50 <maryjom> Jem: How do we practically apply Jake's spreadsheet matrix?
14:53:27 <jeanne> ack je
14:53:27 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about how it fits in How-to
14:53:38 <maryjom> Lauriat: The database will be a more robust way of viewing intersections to explore the space and query intersections to find out what is there to support writing.
14:53:44 <Jem> I got you. it is like reference database the writers can use.
14:54:54 <maryjom> jeanne: Convinced we should go through user flows first. The how-to's can be rewritten to show the user impact of the user needs being addressed.
14:55:12 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
14:55:34 <Jem> btw, looking at the corelation between user needs and severity is a good idea, Sarah.
14:56:11 <maryjom> Chuck: I saw Jake's work in "developing" but I think I'm hearing it's more useful later.
14:57:06 <Jem> if we don't have any other agenda, can we hear more about notation db idea?
14:57:11 <maryjom> Lauriat: It's actually both. We may wind up with a lot or a little guidance where there are intersections of user needs and it can guide development.
14:58:14 <maryjom> jeanne: I need to spend some time on the document and capture notes based on our conversations.
14:58:33 <Lauriat> We'll start filling in the sections in https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iu3-vr2vMoDxr0YjwSEQsuOMjTzQxh1ODgRd57Ea-i8/edit#heading=h.yb3dl8e9osy6
14:58:36 <Chuck> +1
14:58:37 <Jem> I would also like to learn about notation db idea next week if possible.
14:58:37 <maryjom> jeanne: I'd like others to read through it and we'll review this again in 2 weeks.
14:58:56 <maryjom> zakim, bye
14:58:56 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, janina, sarahhorton, Lauriat, maryjom, Jem, jenS, Makoto
14:58:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver
14:59:00 <jenS> * Thank you, Mary Jo!
14:59:01 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/19-silver-minutes.html maryjom
15:00:12 <KimD> KimD has left #silver
15:04:55 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver
15:06:44 <AWK> AWK has joined #silver
15:28:11 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #silver
15:58:20 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #silver